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The Supreme Court, in a split decision, just ruled against the 10 Commandments in court houses.  They say it breaks the non-written “rule” (contrived by such loony-heads as the ACLU) that God is not allowed in government.

Does this mean the dunder-heads will be removing the dozen or so displays and references to the Commandments in their own halls of the Supreme Court?  

I’m sorry – I have no respect for the Supreme Court.  Zero.  Zilch.  Nadda.  

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/SupremeCourt/wireStory?id=885213 (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/SupremeCourt/wireStory?id=885213)

I agree JN, I have no respect for our current Supreme Court either. This is all the more reason we need to pray for the people of this nation and those holding such power over it. It would help if Judge Rhenquist would retire and a sensible Judge takes his place.

The atheists are angry, Christians are angry.  To me that sounds like it just could be a good decision.

What personal liberties or freedoms have been lost ?

Peace

Okay – I’ve thought about it – it took about 10 seconds.

Freedoms or liberties lost?  

Americans should have the freedom to understand how our laws were established and what those laws are based on.  

Americans should have the liberties to display unrevised history.  

Liberals do not recognize a “higher power” as being responsible.  They want all the little children (and naïve adults) to believe that anything good is a result of the “modern liberal collective” rather than having a moral basis beyond what a liberal can comprehend.  (Liberals want to steal the credit from God.)  

I’ve lost the freedom to see the displays and I’ve lost the liberty to acknowledge the displays.  

Modern liberalism, just as communism before them, wish to REPLACE GOD with their collective selves.  They cannot BE GOD until God is wiped from the minds of the ignorant.  

That’s what this is all about.

They ruled against one 10C display but ruled for another. Supposedly the reason was that the display ruled for had other displays around it that were historical on non-religious therefore those 10C's was considered part of an historical display. The one ruled against stood out by itself therefore the intent of that display was religious.

Go figure...ruling on "intent of the display". Sounds like criminal laywer jargon.

Why is it that so few "KNOW what the intent was, or is, and vote, based on that?

Well guys, we better all band together and start an organization bigger than THEM or, we're just going to watch our beloved America sink into the pit.  It's going to take ALL of us.

What happened the first time the 10 Commandments were struck down (broken) by Moses?  We either have to pray for restoration and or get busy and do something about it.

I agree with that.


They might destroy all those that are written in stone, but thank God there are some they will never destroy.

2Co 3:3  Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Hear you loud and clear.

THEY banded together, we didn't.  Are there more of us or more of them?  If we don't like what's happening, then we better do something instead of talking about what THEY'RE taking away from us. They count on middle class America doing nothing.  Middle class America is only good to go to war to keep THEM free.  No doubt in my mind that God has blinded them.  It doesn't appear they're any different than psycho's.

I really think WE need to wake up.  Sorry 'bout being so blunt.  I know, no one really wants to hear this.



   

I really don't know who there are more of. There are many that profess to be Christian but are so liberal that they would agree with the removal of the 10C's from all public places.

But does it matter who has the largest numbers? After with Christ on our side they would be outnumbered if it were 1,000 of them to each 1 of us.

I'll AMEN that, PR.

OK, it's written on our hearts to love our neighbor as ourselves.  Is the government our neighbor?  Is the ACLU our neighbor?  Do we give them our shirt, too?  Or, as a people of God, do we revolt against the evil?  How, besides praying?

The Word lives.

Numbers?  Well, we just can't sit back and let them do this, can we?  In the end, we win.  But, I'm talking about life here on earth for us, our children and grandchildren.  If Christ tarries, this earth is going to be an awful place for future generations.  Every time I think about this, I think about what the Word says in reference to wars, rumors of wars, pestilence, etc. and how He said not to fear, because these things have to take place.  I wonder if He meant what is going on now, or if we are supposed to get in there and confront this evil.  I know I'm extremely upset about what's happening but I don't know what to do about it.  I know what I'd like to do. ;D  Forget I said that!  I was also thinking about what I posted last week about the volcano.  Maybe, we Christians are that volcano.  To say the least, it's very disturbing and even more disturbing that more than half the people, plain and simple, don't think it'll affect them.  Me thinks all of us need to re-priortize.  

OK, I'm finished ranting for the night.  I think. ;D  I better be or I'll never sleep. ;D

 

The granddaughter just came over. I'm not ignoring your question but my answer will be lengthy. I'll have to get back to you on it later.

OK.  I'm not sure I'll be back tonight, either.  

Grace and peace,
cris

We are like frogs in the pot.... :'(

This started awhile back. Christian teaching using isolated scripture taught to stay out of politics. The good ol " My citizenship is in heaven". or "We dont need to bother ourselves with such things Jesus will rapture us out soon. "Yeah, if Jesus was here which country would He live in?" Politics is such a dirty business  a christian shouldnt get into it"

Thank God for placing me in this Good ol USA. As a Christian i feel i should be the best citizen i can be. This includes, voting, speaking out, being on local boards, flying the Flag, supporting the military.  Obeying laws (speeding doesn't count)  ;D In short doing what i can to effect the little piece of this land God planted me on. Saving the most important, praying for our land.

I have read and heard some of the wonderful things that happened  200+ years ago the mighty hand of God moved this fledgling  nation into power.  One person here was talking about teaching some of the real history of this land … Wonderful idea…

Sorry about that. I just can't resist the little one.

Speaking of resist. We are supposed to resist evil. How do we go about this? Definitely not like some of those radical militias that want to go around blowing things up. Besides fervent prayer (bruise those knees) we need to get involved in any legal way we can before it is illegal to do so. Writing our Congressmen. If the Congressmen don't agree then we vote them out. Proselytize. The more true believers there are the better chances we have.

When all is done that can be done, having fought the good fight, we must rely on the hands of God to protect us.

Yes, eventually it will get to the point where it will seem that we are overcome for Jesus tells it will be such and He does not lie.

I think that you may be right, that this is the time that he was talking about when He said "see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

He also told us "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

It tares my heart to think that my children and grandchildren may have to go through much worse but I rest in His hands that they are saved and He will care for them.

Right on Pastor Roger. When Jesus lives in a body, He will guide us.  Even during "protest".  He told us what it takes to be saved.  Through trials and tribuations, in the long run, as long as we confirm Him as King, - WE WIN!

Reba Said: He-he-he-he - Oh yea it does!!!!!

Reba making the quick get-away...(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/auto/car-smiley-003.gif)

Amen! That is a wonderful idea.

JN....you might want to help Reba put the car in gear.............that way it will actually go somewhere.   ;D

It doesn't actually have a transmission.  None of those 25 cent rides outside of Walmart actually GO anywhere.   :D

Good post, Reba.  

The US Ninth Circuit Court (the most liberal and the most overturned court in US history) is being sued by a lawyer - (evidenly even more liberal than the court), for this:
(http://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/ladyj.gif)

Can you see what they are being sued for?  Look at the bottom left of the chair.

Getting kind of nit-picky, don't you think?

But guess who is paying for the law suit?  Yep - You and me.

It is past time to stop frivilous lawsuits that lawyers are getting rich off of and tax payers are suffering because of.

Could you give me a link to that info JN? I want to share it with a whole bunch of people.

What do you propose to stop it?

I'm not sure of where we are exactly in reference to the end as we know it.  I do know that this world is in the worst condition that I can remember.  Technology has played a major part in the lack of morals we see today.  I remember the 50's and we all got along just find without all this "stuff" we have today.  I appreciate being able to talk to all of you guys on the internet....................that's a good thing ;).  I'd rather do without that good thing if it could change morality, though.  

What do you think might happen if the people revolt?  It wouldn't be a nice sight for anyone, but I think it just might make life better for future generations. For now, it would be devastating in more ways I even care to think about.  We just can't sit by and let our rights get taken away.  I really think God wants us to live and be fruitful and not sit back thinking that there isn't any use because He's coming back soon.  This attitude scares me.

Proselytize..................I agree here if it isn't used to convert one from, let's say, one Christian denomination to another.  Usually that word has negative connotations because it means just that.


 

Here you go PR - It took me a while to find it - I actually read in today's paper...

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/email/news/12003433.htm (http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/email/news/12003433.htm)

OK then, if we are paying for it and we disagree with doing so, should we all just stop paying income taxes?  I think, we, the people, can do something about what's going on, but most of us aren't willing, because we'd rather put up with it.

I'm not signing up to read this.  I get enough unwanted emails as it is.  I'd like to read this, too.  If there's another way, other than registering, let me know.

Thanks JN.


Cris,

I agree that we should do something about it. To stop paying taxes would be a futile attempt. It would get us imprisoned and still not accomplish anything positive. Some day it may lead to Christians being imprisoned but let us do so for the right reasons. When it comes to taxes Jesus taught us to "render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar".

Again, someday it may come to revolting against the Govn't but I don't believe that this is that time. There are still methods of redress that are available to us that can be used without breaking any laws. The problem here is that most people are content to live in their own little world. They don't see how these will affect them in the long run or they just don't want to disrupt their current happy lives to do something about it.

Personally I am using all methods available to me that I am physically able to handle. Writing to my State Reps and Senators. Contacting as many people as I can reach by phone or internet. Talking about it to people at the VA center when I go there. Discussing it with Church members.

Whether they are Christians or not, explaining to them what these actions means to them. Trying to get them all to understand the problems that we all face and encouraging them to do something about it.

Hold on Cris. I'll sign up using one of my throw away email addees and post it here.

OK PR.....................thank you.

Here it is Cris.


Posted on Tue, Jun. 28, 2005

Experts unsure on lawyer's suit

By Ivan Delventhal

CONTRA COSTA TIMES

Legal experts said Monday it would be difficult to predict how two U.S. Supreme Court rulings on religious displays on government property might affect a Pleasanton lawyer's suit challenging the seal of the federal appeals court in San Francisco.

Attorney Ryan Donlon filed suit against the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in federal court in February. The complaint alleges that the court's official seal includes a depiction of the Ten Commandments and therefore violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

The proceedings in the Donlon case were ordered stayed in April pending the high court's resolution of the two cases decided Monday.

The Supreme Court decided in those cases that displaying the Ten Commandments on government property is constitutionally permissible in some cases but not in others. The two 5-4 decisions -- one allowing a monument to stay on the grounds of the Texas Capitol, and a second striking down such displays in Kentucky courthouses --indicated future disputes on the issue will have to be evaluated case by case.

With the Supreme Court's rulings in, the government's response to Donlon's suit is now due in 30 days. Donlon did not respond to several telephone messages seeking comment Monday.

In his suit, he says the seal is used on court stationery, certificates, other documents and on the court Web site. It shows a robed, seated woman with a double tablet beside her chair. The tablet has 10 lines in an illegible script.

The suit claims "this object represents the Judeo-Christian Decalogue commonly referred to as the Ten Commandments."

Eugene Volokh, a professor at the UCLA School of Law, said the court's opinions did not break much new ground on the issue.

"The law is as unpredictable now as it was before, perhaps more so," he said.

He said it would be hard to tell how the court's decisions might figure in Donlon's case. Volokh said there was a "decent argument" in favor of Donlon, because the object allegedly representing Commandments occupies a central position in a sparsely populated court seal.

Peter Eliasberg, managing attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California, agreed that the court's opinions do not give much guidance for future cases.

He was hesitant, though, to predict how the decisions might affect Donlon's suit, but said the ruling had certainly shown that Commandments displays can be considered to play a secular, and thus constitutionally permitted role, in certain contexts.

Josh Davis, a professor at the University of San Francisco School of Law, said the justices, rather than committing themselves to abstract principles, had instead indicated the lawfulness Commandment displays on government property would depend to a large extent on context.

He noted however, though: "One product of these decisions is that we're not going to have really easy rules that can be applied mechanically."

I guess I'm ignorant.  Who's the robed, seated woman?

All I can say is that there are DEVILS among us who appear to be human.  They're not.

Not positive, but it is probably Justitia, a Roman goddess of justice.

I agree that Jesus said render to Caesar what is Caesar's.  Just how much is Caesar's?  Just exactly what belongs to Caesar?  Our rights are being taken from us.  They do not belong to Caesar!  Caesar can come in (eminent domain) and take whatever he wants from you.  Surely, Jesus does not want us to just let it all happen.

If everyone stopped paying taxes, we would not all be imprisoned. There simply isn't room to do this. That was the point I was trying to make in saying ALL of us. The government wouldn't be able to imprison one and not the other.  Uprising!

Was Jesus a rebel?  Did He not get angry and turn over tables?  Do you not think Jesus in us should do the same today?

I commend you for your efforts in doing what you can PR, but it isn't working.  That's the problem.  It's going to take ALL of us.  And, it going to have to be drastic.

I think I'm going to go stick my head in the sand till I wake up in heaven. >:( :(   Just kidding.  You know what's scary?  Meeting Almighty God and Him asking me why I didn't cause an uprising and showing me what the world would look like if I had.  That's scary, for me.

You are absolutely right when you say most people are content to live in their own little world.  I guess it's always been that way, too, with the exception of a few very brave souls.  God Bless each and everyone of them, expecially the nameless ones.  I'm just thinking about our guys and gals in Iraq.  As I reminisce, I could never have dreamed about the year 2005 and what it held.  I guess, in my youth, I always thought things would get better.  I never thought these things would happen in my day.  I never thought about these things happening, period.



 

Anyone know, without doing research, the story of why she is there with the 10 Commandments?

We saw somewhat of an uprising of Christians during this last election. Before that it was following 9/11. Unfortunately people won't continue. They let the "heat of the battle" wear off and want to go back to a complacent life all to quickly. It is like the situation in Iraq right now  ....   "let's call it over and leave" type sentiment long before it is over.

There is no easy answer and there is no easy road. I was called a rebel while I was growing up. I got called a rebel while in the Navy (I still made it to E-7 in record breaking time). I got called a rebel because I rebeled against what was considered to be the normal way of doing things yet I got the job done and quicker so than most. Unfortunately this is a job that I cannot do alone. It takes all of us working on this problem and sticking to it till the job is done. When is the job done? When the Lord calls us home. This is what most people do not want to do. They want to sit back on their laurels and let someone else do it for them.

This is why it isn't working. There are far to few that are willing to do what it takes. Perseverance.

The Roman Goddess Justitia is what we call in America Lady Justice. Normally she is standing with the ancient style scales held in an outstretched hand. It is hard to see in that picture but the scales are draped across her lap.

I'm with you on this 100%.  God knew it and foresaw it all happening.  I cannot imagine how He feels.  I just know it brings tears to my eyes and makes me angry.  Like I said before, good thing I'm not God. ;D

I tried to research a bit on this but really couldn't find what I was looking for.  I did come up with a very long history of the Mason's in founding our country though.  Am wondering if anyone else read this.  It's  http://watch.pair.com/mason.html
There are many, many, many pages here.  I just briefy looked it over.


Gotta go eat dinner.  Back in a little while.

As for me, I'm persevering.   I'm looking for ways that I can make a difference.

Maybe my efforts are misguided though. Do you have suggestions for speaking God's truth, loving the way Jesus does, and supporting our troops?  I'm listening... ???

cris said:YEAH!  What you said!

Sorry about the website with a registration - I forgot I ever registered, I never have to 'log in' or anything.  I've  had to register at several 'online newspapers' but I've never been spammed or emailed as a result.  I don't think.  Maybe.  Hmmm.

RP said:That's something my daddy pounded into me.  Perseverence is hard.  I guess that's why it's a virtue.  

WHAT!!?  A Goddess on a Government seal and the constitution shredders are worried about a nondescript shape with ten wiggly lines????

Now – does this mean this guy, along with the ACLU, believes in Goddess Justitia?  Obviously they do, because they leave Pagan religion completely unchecked.  

Or is it… could it possibly be true… do these people actually single out and openly discriminate against Judeo-Christians?  Surely not!  There is always a ‘shattering outcry’ from the liberals when ever any group is disenfranchised, right?   ::)

PR Said:Dude!  Is this kinda like "Christian Jehad"?  ;D  ;D
Sign me up!  ;D
There are some great, very established groups out there who have already made progress in the war started by Satan.  A few that come to mind are The Christian Defense Coalition, the Alliance Defense Fund is a rabid enemy of the ACLU, The Christian Legal Society; probably a lot of others.  It could be worth the trime to look into the different groups, find one that is doing what we want done, and jumping in with support.

I think I may be like you, PR; if I'm going to support something like this I want to be interactively envolved - not just a money source.

I think I'll start praying about this - see if Jesus sends me any particular direction...

There are many sites that keep saying that there were many freemasons amongst our founding fathers. Supposedly Washington DC, buildings, roads and all were planned into a specific design by the freemasons. There are many web sites that claim that Ben Franklin and George Washington were Free Masons. This is not the case at all. These false statements are generated by one by freemasons and by conspiracists that want to believe that the government is run by the evil freemasons.



Hmmmmm could be.  ;) :D :D


You know I forgot about those agencies JN. That is a good idea. I am sure there must be a way to support these agencies besides giving them money. I'll have to look into that.

 I agree JudgeNot , I have no respect for our current Supreme Court either
and after they did this now how can they ask God To Bless The U.S  God Can Not And Will Not Bless SIN

The site I posted isn't a masonic site.  It's run by a Christian group called, Cutting Edge Ministries.  I haven't read it all because there's a lot to read.

Has anyone gone there yet?  



 

For anyone interested here's the link to Cutting Edge Ministries:

http://www.cuttingedge.org/fmcorner.html

More like a manipulation of Christians!

Republicans would be hard-pressed to win a national election without the support of fundamentalist and evangelical Christians, and have no problem promising them the moon, knowing full well that the courts will never let them give Christians the government they want.

Has anyone ever wondered why, after 25 years of Christian activism starting with The Moral Majority, things have only gotten worse?

Teacher-led school prayers haven't been reinstituted. Abortion is still legal. Sodomy has been legalized. Gay marriage is on the horizon. Popular TV shows with homosexual characters. Sexual references everywhere in the media. Creationism hasn't gotten a foothold in our public schools.

Maybe it's time that conservative Christians realize that they have been sold a bill of goods by cynical politicians with their own agenda.

Cris,

I went to the link that you gave. While their statement of faith sounds great, it seems their main mission in life is the Freemasons. They list Benjamin Franklin and George Washington as Freemasons and give proof using letters from George Washington that are supposedly in the library of congress. I researeched this several years ago and never could find such letters in the library. They also claim that Billy Graham is a Freemason that has overseen one of the Freemason lodges. Billy Graham has vehemently denied any association to the Freemasons and no one can prove otherwise as of yet.

This group also says that our Congress is led by the Freemasons. At one point they are saying that Pres Clinton was a freemason and the antichrist. Now they are comparing Pres Bush to Hitler and calling him the antichrist.  

This is what I meant about conspiracist theories. Personally I have my serious doubts on this group.

The devil has come into the powers of the land of the free and is twisting the constitution into laws what was not originally intended by its creators. Freedom curtailments. The point of the constitution is to enable freedom, not curtail it.

In these last days it must be that the devil will become more active as he knows his days are limited by the power of God. He wants to take as many with him as he can. We fight back with the gospel of Jesus Christ preached to those who might be taken by the devil. Those whose hearts can be pricked by the good news of Jesus Christ will come out of it. This should be our prime responsibility in this world, along with keeping ourselves in Christ and his doctrines.

ollie

Amen, Ollie.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ should be the center, and the primary focus of all Christians.

Thanks for your input.  I just now saw your post.  It looked to me like their main mission in life was the Freemasons, too, but I always give people the benefit of the doubt, probably unfortunately.  People have good intentions but you know what they say about good intentions sometimes paving the road to that firey place. ;D

Like I said before, I need to go find a sandy place, and just stay there. ;D

Grace and peace,
cris

AMEN, Ollie!

AMEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS!

There are many beautiful posts in this thread and much to think about. I was left with some simple thoughts. Christians will always have much work to do until Jesus comes to take us home. I like to think about some precious potions of Scripture on a regular basis that deal with:

1 - Fighting a good fight.

2 - Running a good race.

3 - Finishing our course.

4 - Our citizenship is in Heaven with JESUS, our Lord and Saviour.

5 - We are currently in this world, but not of it. Our journey here will be short.

6 - Put on the whole armor of God, yield to His Will, and go forth in whatever way HE leads us.

Brothers and Sisters, we can and should stand up for JESUS, regardless of the adversity and ridicule we will face. This world is becoming more evil by the minute, but we are not of this world.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:17-18  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Hi,

As I was reading through the posts, I was thinking about asking if someone had specifics that we could adhere to in our efforts to stand up for Christ.  So the above quote is really cool!  ;D

However, I'd like to remind you of something in post #36, where PR mentioned "uprising...perseverence."  The resulting question is, what should we do to uprise and persevere?  ???  All I know at this time is to read the Bible, pray, and ask others to join in.

In further response to post #36, I was really encouraged to see the "God Bless America" signs in 2001-2002 and to hear talk-of-God in public forums after the 9-11 tragedy.  So now in 2005, what should we do to uprise and persevere?  Are we completely obedient in praying alone and with small pockets of believers?  Should we then add something else?  What do you think and upon what Biblcal basis?

The reason that I am wondering this is because recently, I feel the Lord wanted me to consider the first parable written about in Matthew 25.  I feel convicted to wake up, widen my eyes, refuse lethargy and complacency, and fully wake up.  Does anyone have any thoughts on how this should be done?  I pray for revival among Christians, specifically we who worship freely in western countries, with no fear of death-threats.  Are our oil lamps full?  Is Jesus coming back to pockets of obscure believers or to a political force of believers active within the social landscape?

thoughtfully,
selahjoy

SelahJoy,

I think that the single biggest answer to your question is prayer. We can and should ALL do that. Some people get discouraged in prayer because they don't see immediate results. The lack of immediate results does NOT mean that God doesn't hear our prayers, and it certainly doesn't mean that prayer will NOT be answered.

I think that the next biggest answer is yielding to God's will. All of us are unique in terms of talents, gifts, and abilities. I am firmly convinced that God gives all of us opportunities to serve him, and it is up to us whether or not we take advantage of the opportunity placed in our path. Regardless of health, I'm positive that God gives us work that he wants done. I'm reflecting on a time when my dad was dying. He had been in the ministry for over 60 years, and it made him very unhappy when he couldn't continue. He prayed about it and felt led to talk with anyone who would listen coming into his home. He chose Hospice instead of the hospital, so he stayed at home. So, all of the nurses and volunteers who were willing to listen got an ear full. Many did want to listen, and many had questions about the Gospel dad wanted to share. These questions made dad very happy, and he knew that God had provided work HE wanted done.

I'm positive that the Holy Spirit works in us 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The more we want to listen to God - the more that God shares with us. This is especially true for those who pray and have a desire to be used by God. It then becomes a matter of whether we yield and obey. It could be a small task that would be easy to perform, or it could be a large and difficult task that we doubt whether we can do it or not. In those hard or seemingly impossible tasks that the Spirit leads us to do, it then becomes a matter of more prayer for strength, wisdom, and guidance from God to do what God wants done. We can do all things through Christ.

Lastly, many people get discouraged when they see the devil winning over and over again. We can't stop the devil from his evil, but we can and should stub his toe and at least slow his progress with the things that God leads us to do. Bible Prophecy makes it very clear that the last days of this age of grace will become increasingly evil. I think that we are to simply fight in the tasks that God gives us to do until Jesus comes to take us home.

Our work could be almost anything from sweeping the floor at church to organizing telephone, letter-writing, or email campaigns to Congress. All of the work will be important, and the most important work will obviously be witnessing to the lost. We might not feel capable to do the work that God gives us, but He will prepare us for the work He wants us to do if we but yield. So we are really left with:

I don't want to do that.

Yes Lord, I will go and do your will. Lord, I ask for strength and guidance.

If a Christian doesn't face persecution, ridicule, and assaults from the devil, it's almost sure that man or woman is not yielding to the will of God in accepting the work He wants done.

Just 2 cents worth.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 5:3-11  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

SelahJoy,

I don't believe in coincidence, and I never cease to be amazed about how God answers us. Look at the below and know that I just read it minutes after I completed my post to you.

______________________

July 4

SERVING CHRIST AND SERVING MEN

"He saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?"-- Joh_6:5.

NOTICE THAT little pronoun We! As our Lord stood face to face with the vast crowd of hungry people, He might have said to His disciples, "What are you going to do?" He might have bidden them devise some way of meeting their hunger and weariness. Instead of that, He identified Himself with them, saying, How shall we do it? Is not that His way still? He knows the needs of the world of men, but He calls us into fellowship with Himself with respect to them, saying, This is a matter not for Me alone, not for you, but for us together. "I am the Vine, ye are the branches."

Whilst our Lord talked about buying bread, "He knew what He would do." Before His eye was the entire plan of the meal, of which He would be the Host, but He spoke of buying, that He might see what they would suggest, whether they would turn to Him in simple faith, or begin to meet the need according to their own ideas. They took the latter course. It is almost always the case, that when we are face to face with some emergency, we begin to calculate our ways and means. When we are tested, we take out pencils and paper, and begin to count up our resources, as the disciples did when they said: Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not enough, that every one may take a little!

Then it was that Andrew bethought himself of the little lad, whom he had seen in the course of the day. How proud and pleased the boy would be when they told him that Jesus wanted his little store. He gladly gave it up at the call of that Voice which had thrilled him with its accent.

How can we serve Christ, and what have we to give Him? Five tiny loaves and two small fishes do not look much in themselves, but He will take the poorest and simplest things, and make wonderful use of them for His glory and the blessing of men. It is wonderful how much Jesus will do with our lives, if we will only put them into His dear hands. If you have no great gift to offer Him, you can bring the special power of doing one thing best, which every one possesses, and He will use you to arrange the people in orderly ranks, and to carry round the bread and wine of the Gospel message, offering it without money and without price.

PRAYER
Take my life, and let it be
Consecrated, Lord, to Thee.
AMEN.

_______________________

Written by F. B. Meyer

The F. B. Meyer devotions are distributed freely and Internationally in the excellent freeware Bible Study package called e-Sword. You can also subscribe to Day-By-Day By Grace at the above link for Living In Christ Ministries.

You can obtain e-Sword at:
http://www.e-sword.net/downloads.html
Author: Rick Meyer
(The goal of Rick Meyer is to freely distribute Bibles to every country on earth in their own language, and that goal gets closer by the day. Thanks to countless Christian individuals and organizations with big hearts, many excellent Bible Study tools are also being freely distributed with e-Sword around the world.)

Blackeyedpeas,

From my heart, thank you for your responses.  I poured myself on paper (computer screen) and then deleted it.

Now I'm going to thank you again, and then go pray.  I need to!

Sincerely,
selahjoy

p.s. As John 6:5 affirms, I'm glad God is with us.

SelahJoy,

You are most welcome. I'm very happy about your desire to serve God and especially your decision to pray and seek His Will.

I will pray for you and your family. Along the path, however difficult, just remember that our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, will be with you every step of the way.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 104:33  I will sing unto the LORD as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.

Dear Blackeyedpeas,

You are sooooo right, and I really needed to pray.  Actually, I also went to watch some fireworks with friends and in my thoughts, felt that I could almost "hear" myself "yelling" over and over, OH GOD!  So I left as soon as polite.

I came home to spend time...I confess that your first bolded statement was true for me. stood out!  The verse where Paul says something like, "I do what I don't want to, and I don't do what I want to" came to my mind.  I need to be obedient--in every aspect of my life!

Yes and Amen to your reference to stubbing the enemy's toe, and as ZakDar pointed out in his post this morning, the "spiritual dog" does pester.

Your dad's testimony is powerful; it looks like he used every opportunity God gave him to share the love of Jesus.  God's word and His testimonies are very encouraging.  I am so happy to have the words of God to read in their nearest original form that my human brain and education can handle, and then to ask the Holy Spirit to help me walk faithfully--and circumspectfully--in this evil age.  Even so, we keep our eyes on the prize for the high calling of Jesus Christ!  Amen?  :)

Blackeyedpeas,  thank you so much for writing me yesterday and encouraging me.  I was at first surprised that you replied with lengthy compassion, and then upon reading the second post in which you offered to pray (AND FOR MY FAMILY!!), I could see that you are a minister of Jesus' love.  Praise God for ChristiansUnite!

Now I hope it is okay for me to add to ZakDar's meditation on Rom 8, as found in "You Name It."  Every verse found there is powerful, but it reminds me of:

Col 1:9  We do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding
Col 1:10 Walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God
1:11  strengthened with all might according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy
12  give thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed (transferred) us into the the kingdom of the Son of His love
14 In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of the cross.

The sovereignty and preeminence of Jesus Christ, as triune with the Father and Holy Spirit!  What unity!  What mystery and beauty!  

May you have a most blessed day!

SelahJoy,

I read ZakDar's post and really enjoyed it. I consider the things of God and His Word to be spiritual food. I give thanks that we live in a country where there is no reason to be spiritually hungry. Again, I was just thinking about our freedoms, especially to worship.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Totally agree!  As I mentioned in a recent post, it seems to me that if we who are free to worship would feast upon the word and walk in it, then the revival and the revolution will come to America.  Salvation and deliverance will come to many who are being called, and the glory of the Lord will fill the earth, just as the Bible says.

Amen!

I have an eating disorder when it comes to feasting on the word. A true glutton as I cannot get enough. Praise God in the highest for His wonderful mercies.


1Ch 29:11  Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.

Amen Pastor Roger!

God's banquet table is laid out before us, and there is never any reason for us to leave hungry. There are people in other countries who are killed or persecuted for trying to eat a morsel from God's Word. Knowing this, I must give thanks every time I partake and pray for those who are hungry. May God give them strength and peace.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Thessalonians 2:2-4  But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention. For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile: But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

Hi folks,


This is a pretty sticky Christian issue for me.  I don't think I'd go as far as to say that the supreme court means nothing to me, as I think they are an integral part of our political system, and have done great things to advance the nation.  

I also agree, however, the members of organizations such as the ACLU often overstep their mandated bounds, and create some relatively frivilous law-suits, for lack of any other important cause.

In the end, I think that my views on the issue have to come down to simple question of religious rights.  Have my rights been comprimised by this decision?  probably not.  I still maintain my own right to beleive what I want, and I maintain the right to express that beleif.  I think that is what the founding fathers had intended to protect.  For better or worse, the United States was not founded to be a theocracy.  In fact, it was founded on principles of separating church and state, in order to protect the inalienable rights of people who have contrasting beleifs.  Unfortunately, this means that some of the trappings of Christianity ought not neccesarily apear to be a determining factor in legal proceedings.  I for one, know that if I was being convicted in a foreign land, I would want my trial to be based on the rule of law, as opposed to religious values.

But, I do entirely understand the contenciousness of this issue.  It's a big one for both sides of the Christian coin.

cheers,

Jimmy

What has it done to advance this nation?

Who  has given a mandated to the ACLU?

"Separation of church and state" is not found in any of our documents. The courts have progressively diminished, from the original intent "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" clause.  

Sister Reba,

thanks for your reply.  I have a few answers for your questions. (Although I suspect they may have been more opinion than question)

The ACLU, (of which I am NOT a member) is given its mandate from its membership.  It's a lobby group trying to pressure the government to make changes to curent domestic and foreign policy, that its members agree need redressign.  That's what lobby groups do.  It has the same mandate, or the same right to push its cause, as the powerful right-wing christian (of which I am NOT a member) does.

As far as your claim that the separation of church and state does not exist in any of our governmental documents, I have included for you two clippings.  The first, is part of a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a baptist minister.  The minister was angry that his home state of Conn. did not grant him some of the rights that he felt his religion demanded as inalienable.  He wanted Jefferson, to pass national laws, that would enshrine these differing religious rights, as constitutional.  This is the integral part of Jefferson's reply:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

It is the verbiage of this letter that echo's in the first amendment statement:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

I don't think you have to take a liberal reading to see that according to the constitution of the United States, writen by people like Jefferson, there is, in fact a vital separation between church and state.  the line: "no law respecting the establishment of religion," essentially means that the U.S. government is to stay out of the religious matters of the nation.

"religion is a matter that lies solely between a man and his god."

Thanks Thomas, you've proven my point well.

cheers,

Jimmy

Thank you for your reply.... The use of the word mandate has been so over used it has become a word with no real value. In our langauge today mandate somehow brings to mind something of the majority view of the general population. You have used it correctly in your explanation.



When i read the whole of Jeffersons letter it takes on a differnt look, then the shortened version. Yes he uses the term 'separation of church and state'. (this letter is not gererally  what a one would call 'one of our documents')  I notice he includes the or prohibiting the free exercise thereof equal with the establishment clause for his wall. Over the last 50 years or so the establishment clause has been used to control Christianity. Again in reading the whole of Jeffersons letter it is plane to see he did not wish the government to control religion.



 

Hi Reba,

Absolutely!  Jefferson did not want anyone interfeering with the free practice and expression of religion.  Thats what the whole first amendment is all about.

However, I don't think this particular supreme court ruling has controled Christianity in any way.  I am still as free today to attend my chruch, and express my faith as I was 50 years ago.  The constitution of the United States was writen to keep politics and religion separate, so that the Government can be seen to have legitimacy for all of the governed.  If it were to become utterly ruled by one religious faction or another, and be run based on their religious teacheings (a theocracy) then it would lose relevance with other non-beleiving members of the nation.

It is this fundamental precept that has been upheld, and I don't see how that really harms my rights as a citizen.  In fact, I feel safer because of it.  I know that someone is looking out for my freedom of religion.

thanks,

Jimmy

The supreme court was put into place to interpret law, not make law or enforce law.

If one reads the constitution of the United States one can easily see they misinterpret. Even someone not trained in legal expertise. It is a gross adulteration of what the writers of the constitution intended.

The supreme court abuses their constutional authority and the
lawmakers, (congress), our voice in government allow it. Are we voicing our thoughts to our representatives loud and clear. If so and they do not listen I say vote em all out. Therein is our power. Start fresh.

I believe firmly in the providential working of God in forming America to bring folks back to His basic gospel in Jesus Christ which was being censored somewhat by the existing governments and churches of Europe. Now the devil has found a way to work through an adulteration of our laws to making the basic gospel a censor issue again, only in the land of the free this time. Is there a new world to escape to this time?
The new world lies in our power to vote them out and it should be done before they adulterate the laws on voting and we are moved to "dumping tea in the harber" again..

ollie

Hi Ollie,

Great post!  You certainly defend your view with a great deal of fervour.  I did however, want to make a quick point.

In your message, you mentioned that the current supreme court decisions are a "gross adulteration" of what the initial writers had intended.  I just wanted to direct you to the clipping of the Thomas Jefferson letter that is mentioned in one of my last posts. As I'm sure you are aware, Jefferson was a major, if not the major author of both the U.S. constitution and the declaration of independance, as such his writings, I feel would give today's reader a pretty good idea of what the original writers had intended.  Seeing as he made it quite clear in that letter that the U.S. government should play no role in the religion of the governed, I think the court's ruling on that matter is quite consistent with those original aims.

As always, I look forward to your take on the situation

cheers,

Jimmy

Amen Ollie,

I find it odd that when the courts prohibit the free exercise thereof folks dont get that their freedoms are being attacked. The two clauses need to be worked with equal weight.

Nice to see ya again...

Hello JimmySwift,

In terms of intentions, I think that Thomas Jefferson would make an excellent example. While serving as President, he was also in charge of public schools in Washington. He placed the Holy Bible and a Hymnal in the schools as primary reading texts during his tenure. The letter from Thomas Jefferson doesn't come close to meaning what the left wants it to. It was simply used as part of a really BIG LIE pushed on the American people. The facts and evidence about this BIG LIE are overwhelming.

The current distortion of the so-called "Separation of Church and State" is at best a fabrication by the liberal left in America. Most of those folks don't like to talk about the real and lengthy history of Christian America. In fact, they've tried pretty hard to get the real history of America removed from texts used by schools.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 :'(  Saddly  i agree Mr. Bepster.

There was once a man whose favorite color was blue.  Let’s call him TJ.  TJ loved blue – nearly everything he had was blue.  Once, when out and about, TJ was asked what he thought of a particular bridge, which just so happened to be painted blue.  “I hate it,” TJ said.  Well, there was, perchance, another set of ears listening to this exchange.  This pair of ears only heard part of the exchange, and knew nothing else of TJ, but this person went out among the masses proclaiming “TJ hates blue!”  All those who had an agenda against the color blue now used TJ against the lovers of blue – even though TJ himself loved the color.  

It’s called revisionist history, and is a false teaching.

I’ve said it before – Satan will stop at nothing to rid man of GOD, using whatever tools necessary.  Revisionist history is one of his most affective tools.  Satan’s agenda is to wipe GOD from the minds of the young – by making it ‘illegal’ to hear the Truth in everyday life.  Satan is hoping beyond hope that, after generations, people will eventually forget who Jesus Christ is.  

Satan can barf and roll in it.  I won’t give up the fight against him.  Just as the false phrase ‘separation of church and state’ has become ‘popular’, so have many of Satan’s other false truths.  I, for one, will not bend or bow to these ‘historian’s’ mandates.  Truth can not be rewritten, only hidden for a short period of time.

(Yep – I ALSO believe in the 2nd Amendment AS WRITTEN.  Why, when the right to bear arms is for the people’s protection against tyrannical government, would any one EVER think that this protection was granted to a militia (National Guard) which is a part of the very government we are protecting ourselves from?  Ludicrous!  Revisionist history is that history which has been rewritten to take control from the masses and put that control right into Satan’s lap.)  

Okay – I’m done ranting…  ;D  

Dear Jesus – may Your Word continue to reign supreme, and be THE recognizable beacon shining from within Satan’s fogbank.  Whoa to the man who attempts to extinguish Your beacon of Truth.  
Amen.

Since we are on the topic of Thomas Jeffersons letter to the Danbury Baptist Association let us look at the entire letter.  It is a preliminary draft of this letter. The portion that is italicised and in parathensis was omitted from the final draft because he did not want to "offend" his fellow party. It gives a more accurate account of what his intentions were in regards to the "wall of seperation".

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

Thomas Jefferson also had a lot to say on this matter. He saw a problem with the Judicary system as early as 1820.


A subtle corps of sappers and miners

----- To T. Ritchie, 1820

The judiciary of the United States is the subtle corps of sappers and miners constantly working under ground to undermine the foundations of our confederated fabric. They are construing our constitution from a coordination of a general and special government to a general and supreme one alone. This will lay all things at their feet . . . We shall see if they are bold enough to take the daring stride their five lawyers have lately taken. If they do, then . . . I will say, that "against this every man should raise his voice," and more, should uplift his arm . . .

Having found, from experience that impeachment is an impracticable thing, a mere scarecrow, they consider themselves secure for life; they sculk from responsibility to public opinion . . . An opinion is huddled up in conclave, perhaps by a majority of one, delivered as if unanimous„and with the silent acquiescence of lazy or timid associates, by a crafty chief judge, who sophisticates the law to his mind, by the turn of his own reasoning . . .

A judiciary independent of a king or executive alone, is a good thing; but independence of the will of the nation is a solecism, at least in a republican government.


A usurping judiciary will become a despotism

----- To Jarvis, 1820

To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions [is] a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy. Our judges are as honest as other men, and not more so. They have, with others, the same passions for party, for power, and the privilege of their corps. Their maxim is "boni judicis est ainpliare jurisdictionem," and their power the more dangerous as they are in once for life . . . The constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with the corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots.

If the Federal judiciary is not checked, it will destroy democracy.

----- To C. Hammond, 1821

It has long, however, been my opinion, and I have never shrunk from its expression (although I do not choose to put it into a newspaper, nor, like a Priam in armor, offer myself its champion), that the germ of dissolution of our federal government is in the constitution of the federal judiciary; an irresponsible body (for impeachment is scarcely a scarecrow) working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless step like a thief, over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall be usurped from the States, and the government of all be consolidated into one. To this I am opposed; because, when all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government or another, and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated. It will be as in Europe, where every man must be either pike or gudgeon, hammer or anvil. Our functionaries and theirs are wares from the same workshop; made of the same materials, and by the same hand. If the States look with apathy on this silent descent of their government into the gulf which is to swallow all, we have only to weep over the human character formed uncontrollable but by a rod of iron, and the blasphemers of man, as incapable of self-government, become his true historians.

Sinister procedure of the Supreme Court

----- To Pleasants, 1821

Another most condemnable practice of the Supreme Court to be corrected is that of cooking up a decision in caucus and delivering it by one of their members as the opinion of the court, without the possibility of our knowing how many, who, and for what reasons each member concurred. This completely defeats the possibility of impeachment by smothering evidence. A regard for character in each being now the only hold we can have of them, we should hold fast to it. They would, were they to give their opinions seriatim and publicly, endeavor to justify themselves to the world by explaining the reasons which led to their opinion.

To curb Federal judges, they should be appointed every six years

----- To Pleasants, 1821

[For the] difficult task in curbing the Judiciary in their enterprises on the Constitution . . . the best [remedy] I can devise would be to give future ommissions to judges for six years [the Senatorial term] with a re-appointmentability by the president with the approbation of both houses. If this would not be independence enough, I know not what would be . . .

The Judiciary perversions of the Constitution will forever be protected under the pretext of errors of judgment, which by principle are exempt from punishment. Impeachment therefore is a bugbear which they fear not at all. But they would be under some awe of the canvas of their conduct which would be open to both houses regularly every sixth year. It is a misnomer to call a government republican, in which a branch of the supreme power is independent of the nation.

----- To W. T. Barry, 1822

If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface. This will not be borne, and you will have to choose between reformation and revolution. If I know the spirit of this country, the one or the other is inevitable. Before the canker is become inveterate, before its venom has reached so much of the body politic as to get beyond control, remedy should be applied. Let the future appointments of judges be for four or six years, and renewable by the President and Senate. This will bring their conduct, at regular periods, under revision and probation, and may keep them in equipose between the general and special governments. We have erred in this point, by copying England, where certainly it is a good thing to have the judges independent of the King. But we have omitted to copy their caution also, which makes a judge removable on the address of both legislative Houses. That there should be public functionaries independent of the nation, whatever may be their demerit, is a solecism in a republic, of the first order of absurdity and inconsistency.

Amen Brothers and Sisters,

This has the makings of a great thread, and I'm enjoying the posts.

I think that the biggest problem right now is the Supreme Court. They were never given the power to make law. Making law is reserved for our elected representatives. It is painfully obvious that the Supreme Court is indeed making law and has been for a long time. God willing, we will soon have one or two more on the Supreme Court who will use the Constitution instead of the ACLU and norms in other countries.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 105:4  Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

Hi Guys,

Glad to see the lively debate.

As a general point, I think many people here seem to have an automatic aversion to anyone trying to make a point, using historical context.  I am not trying to re-write history, nor do I think my points are inspired by satan.

Many of you seem to staunchly beleive that the United States was founded as some sort of "Christian Nation."  While I do agree that many of its principles and symbols are quite christan, the U.S. was never meant to be the  theocracy that you seem to crave, and I dread.  In fact, the U.S. constitution and other important political tenants are modeled more on the political writings of guys like Hobbes and Locke than the Bible.  This is not to say that God played no role in the event, I'm sure he did, but I'm not sure about this idea that the U.S. is some sort of neo-promised land.

Through my study of the topic, it would appear as though the early settlers were trying to escape from, and not create a government run religion.  Many of them felt oppressed in the European models of a state run by religious dogma and so founded a nation based on good government and not neccesarily the rules of the clergy

Again, I'm sure many of you have different views on this, and as BEP said, it's nice to see such a great debate.

Cheers,

Jimmy

I agree that the U.S. was never intended to be a theocracy. Nor would I want it to be. It is an undeniable fact though that it was founded on the belief of God. There are many that do want to write this fact out of history and give the credit solely to "guys like Hobbes and Locke". I am not saying that these two people did not figure into it. Just that they were not the sole foundation, especially so Hobbes.

Reading many writings and speaches of the founding fathers such as Ben Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and more it is plainly visible that God was a center point in their lives and the basis for their actions. They simply did not want a government telling them how they could or could not believe nor punishing them for worshipping when and where they chose to do so.

Unfortunately the U.S. government is coming to this point now. Telling people when and where they are allowed to worship.

Hello JimmySwift,

On the contrary, using historical context is exactly what I want people to use. That's what has been hidden, and there's a reason for that. It leaves the left without a clue, speechless, and dumbfounded. Putting everything into historical perspective makes the left look silly and without education.

If everything was put into historical perspective the only hope left for liberal progress would be rogue-activist judges who ignore the Constitution and make their own law.

Regarding the founding of America as a Christian nation and for a Christian people is a fact that has been given judicial notice countless times. If one wishes to ignore judicial notice, there is over 200 years of historical perspective to look at. The facts and evidence are overwhelming and beyond debate. The only thing subject to debate is what America has become over the last 50 years.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Timothy 6:12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Circle Jimmy,

Some interesting information on the founding of the U.S by James Madison.


At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read
Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, [judicial]
the LORD is our lawgiver, [legislative]
the LORD is our king; [executive]
He will save us.”
Baron Charles Montesquieu wrote "The Spirit of the Laws", a book that was read and studied intently by our Founders. Montesquieu wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government.


This information plus much more, with supporting documentation is available at:

http://www.eadshome.com/JamesMadison.htm

Reba,

Thank you for your valuable contribution to our discussion regarding the intentions of the founding fathers.

cheers,

Jimmy

Wow!   :)  PR  that is interesting. I cant believe what is tought in our schools these days, as history. To read the writtings of our forfathers and see over and over how much they relied on Scripture is heart warming.

Again these words come to mind.....


2 Chron 7:14

14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
KJV

Brothers and Sisters,

If someone wants to learn just about all there is about the founding of America, I highly recommend the Library of Congress On line. It's an amazing place, and it has very powerful search functions. "Religious Freedom" will yield a huge variety of documents from and about the founders. It's a fascinating place for any student of history.

Students of the Constitution will find out pretty quickly that many of our courts, especially Federal Courts and the Supreme Court, no longer pay much attention to it. The "Balance of Powers" that the founders intended has been broken for a long time. If the founders discovered what became of their dreams, they would be ready to fight the Revolution again.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 Mr. Bepster,

A tea party might be a good thing...

Pastor Roger,

Thanks brother, I find information like this to be more than just interesting. Many of the other facts of early America are just as fascinating. Your post caused me to reflect on many of the original law books. The laws regarding major offenses quoted Chapter and Verse of the Holy Bible as the Authority for those laws. There's an almost endless list of amazing facts like this that completely erases any doubt about what America was at one time.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 19:14  Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

I agree with Beps, the Library of Congress is the best place to get information on the founding of our country. There is much information on the internet that is false both for and against. The Library of Congress holds the orignal documents and not things that are made up by overly zealous people.

Sister Reba,

I'm laughing, thinking about what a shock it would be for the founders to see what has become of Congress.  ;D  I'm wondering if they would think the whole current bunch to be witches and warlocks.   ;D

I don't know if they would holler "Tea Party" or

I believe that some of them would be saying "I told you so" just before they said "Tea Party" or CHARGE!

Reading through many of the quotes from the founding fathers I have seen where several of them foresaw the denigration of the Constitution by both the Judicial system as well as by Congress. As much work as they put into it they also knew the character of man could and would destroy it. That was the reason for attempting to place safeguards such as the right to bare arms in place so that the average citizen could protect themselves against a tyrannical government.

Brother Roger,

You are completely correct. I remember reading many lengthy papers from the founders about their fears for the future. Power of the Judicial Branch was only one of their fears. Another of the major issues I'm reflecting on now deals with the relationship between the Federal Government and the States. The founders intended the Federal Government to be the servant of the States and never the other way around. Well, the other way around is here and has been here for a long time. The rights reserved for the States have been removed, and a large percentage of everything done in our current government is Unconstitutional!!

It's no longer a matter of comparisons with what the founders intended, rather of opposites in many cases. Freedom of religion would be one such issue. I give thanks for the religious freedoms we have left, and I know that we must STAND UP AND KEEP THEM!!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 119:105  Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

AMEN!!

Hi, I just joined, mainly because I'm bursting at the seams to talk to people about the Supreme Court. I have comments about  scattered posts. Someone said Rehnquist should resign. No one commented. He was in favor of both Ten Commandments displays. Did you mean that Rehnquist is a bizarre right-wing conservative and a nicer person with the same opinions would be better, or do you think he's the liberal responsible for the bad decisions? Why don't Christians unite and protest all the pagan goddesses and icons on our seals and currency? They bother me, or does the presence of such religious symbols of other faiths protect things like the Ten Commandments? Can anyone answer justice Stevens' comment: "If 'Thou shalt have no other Gods before me' doesn't constitute the establishment of a religion..." what would? As for Jefferson, we must understand him in context. He was ambassador to France when the Constitution was written, suggested that a bill of rights be added (but didn't write it) and found his will repeatedly overruled by Chief Justice John Marshall. Marshall was Jefferson's cousin and life-long enemy and was appointed months before Jefferson took office by John Adams, who had just lost to Jefferson. Adams named as many judges as he could before he left office, and they continued to rule against Jefferson's policies. The presidency was not yet terribly strong in those days, and Marshall was still there when Jefferson wrote those letters. Marshall's party was out of existence by 1820 and our best president James Monroe was reelected unopposed. Jefferson was Unitarian. He didn't want anyone forcing him to go to church, but knew a neutral religious option (availability of the Bible) was good for all.