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What do you feel about the Pre-Trib Rapture theory?

If there is a pre, will there be a during and post? So that all the saved might be with the Lord

ollie

No during, yes post....but all the saved will be with the Lord.  During, they become martyrs, and their souls are found waiting under the throne of God until the end of the trib and Jesus comes to earth with "10 thousand thousand of His saints..." to rule during the Millennium.

Where in the Bible does it state that..?

Which part?  Here's a start...............

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Jud 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him

Rev 19:14
And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Any one risk a guess as to how i voted?  ;D


My guess is  Ollie is looking for the connection not isolated verses.

Here is an isolated verse....I wonder how many different theologies could be developed from it....


Isa 19:25

25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance
KJV

Isolated verses can be aranged to say just about what ever one would wish.

Does Isa 19:25 tell us Egypt is His people? Yup it sure does...again i wonder  how many different theologies could be developed from it....

The Pre-Trib rapture theory is false. Its not surprising that the poll is telling that more people think it is true and Biblical it is not..

The Popular LEFT BEHIND theory is a LIE

What is your theory? What is your scripture back up for your theory? What are the scriptural reasons you believe LB to be a lie.

Sorry - RichkCt, I know you are passionate and this is probably just semantics to you, but, by definition "Theory" cannot be a "lie".  True theorists ever claim truth - (except for Darwinists.  ::)  :-X )

Popular theory is just an idea that draws acute interest.  To accuse those who are proponents of a theory as liars is unfair.  They may be guilty of an 'unfortunate guess', but nothing more.  I certainly don’t believe salvation is dependent on ‘good theory’.  John 3:16 is not theory.   :)

Just my $0.02 – although it may actually be worth much less than that.  :)

God bless all,
JN

Rich,

That would simply be your opinion. There are several massive threads on the board that offer Biblical reasons for why many Christians believe your opinion to be false. I quickly noticed that you didn't offer any Bible references for your opinion. If you have any, please feel free to open the thread of your choice. You might want to study the topic first unless you are using a crystal ball for your opinion.

Tom

All you pre-tribber believers. Something to think about..

Look around..Look at whats happening around the. Can you honestly say that we're not in the trib now?

Hey RC - I can say I hope we are in the trib - that means things will be coming to an end (err...BEGINNING!) very soon!

God bless!
jn

IF that's the case, then where are the deaths of 1/3 of the population due to famine? Where is the antichrist? Where is the one world government. Where is the temple? It hasn't been rebuilt. Where is the desecration that will happen? It can't happen because the Temple hasn't been rebuilt. Where are the two witnesses? They're nowhere to be found. Where are the 144,000 Jews who will witness during the Tribulation period. I see no such thing. You got alot of questions and no answers Rich. Typical of those who are quick to dismiss Pre-Trib Rapture and those who think we are in the Tribulation period. Just a few thoughts.

Joshua

Amen Brother Joshua!

There is much to be fulfilled, and it will be at God's appointed time. That time might be growing near. In terms of when, it's sufficient for me to know like the old hymn, When the role is called up yonder, I'll be there!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 51:10  Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

I really dont know why I keep coming to this website. Theres so much blindness..

I mean people liking:     rick warren
People believing in the: Pre-Trib lie fantasy
People liking the film     The passion of mel gibson

I guess its just all part of the great falling away...

Hi Rich -
All I can say is that no two persons on earth wear sunglasses with the same color lenses.

I'm pretty sure God did that on purpose.  :)

God bless,
JN

He still hasn't answered my many questions. Now he calls us blind. Enlighten us oh knower of all things. Again, if you'll read, you'll find massive threads on the Rapture. Typical....sheesh. Later

Joshua

Rich,

I think that you need a seeing-eye dog and maybe a walker. If you keep falling, you will eventually hurt yourself.

 ::)

Tom

Rich,

If you are going to make such statements as you have here then you need to substantiate your statements with documentation (Bible verses). Not just to make off the cuff comments and call others blind that have given threads upon threads of Bible verses to support their beliefs. Otherwise you can expect nothing else besides what you have received here.

Rich your answers to my questions are as complete as your web site  ???  On my computer it comes up  CANNOT FIND SERVER...

If you would post some scripture maybe we could have some discussion. No one here would label me a pre tribber  :-X.

One World GOV=UNited Nations

Rich,

The UN does not yet have full control over all countries and is currently struggling to hold itself together. If we were already in the tribulation period the one world govn't would be in place with full power.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


As you can see from the above verses the tribulation does not start until the "abomination of desolation" (the beast, the antichrist whichever you wish to call him) stands in the holy place. This has not happened yet and can't.

If you think it has then please tell me who it is and how he is standing in the holy place.

Can you feel the love on this sight. It doesnt bother me the responses that is towards me..

I think of it this way. In order for the pre-trib garbage to be true then there would have to be 2 comings of Jesus. One time to come get us and protect us from the trib blah. Then the people that get wisked away come back with Jesus for his final coming back to earth.

Its not going to happen Jesus comes back once more thats it..Period...

Reba, my website works fine I just went there.

Everytime I try to go to your website it gives me Microsoft.com??

Yes, Rich, I do feel a lot of love from people on this site. Perhaps you don't feel it because you have not showed it to others. After calling others blind and fallen simply because they don't agree with you on a non-salvation issue is a sure sign of love isn't it and it should get you a whole lot of love in return.

Now if you want to put the personal slams aside and really talk about the issue at hand I am willing to do so.

Rich,

Here's a hint for you. The ruler of the first one world government will rule and reign from Jerusalem, and that ruler will be the beast/devil. This obviously hasn't happened yet, so it's a time period in the future. There will be a second one world government after the tribulation period, and that ruler will be Jesus Christ. He will rule and reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem after locking the devil away. This will be the first time in human history that the devil hasn't been loose and causing havoc and misery for mankind.

The center focus for the end of this age events is Israel, not the U.S. There will be a lengthy list of Bible prophecies that most certainly will be fulfilled, and no power on earth will be able to hasten or delay fulfillment by even a second. The time was set by Almighty God before the foundation of the world. It will be a 7 year period of great wrath and horror for every man, woman, and child living on the earth.

Some true Christians don't even believe there will be a Rapture, but the Bible clearly teaches it. Other true Christians disagree about whether the Church Which is the BODY OF CHRIST will be Raptured pre, mid, or post Tribulation. This is not a Saved or not Saved issue, so most Christians don't go to war over this issue or call another Christian names because they have a different opinion. At least this would be true for Christians with some degree of maturity. But, as we all know, some will go to war and call other Christians names for much less. It's especially sad when the name caller isn't even familiar with the portions of Scripture that address the issue. That would be the case with you. If you would like to have a civil discussion of this topic, at least read the applicable portions of Scripture once.

Most of the work is already done for you. Just read any of the existing threads already on the forum. Please feel free to open any of them and renew the discussion if you think that you can. Just try to keep it pleasant and use the Holy Bible as the authority for your opinion. Otherwise, we're really not interested, AND the name calling is over.

Tom

 ::)  Wow! - I guess you think that you've been exhibiting love.

Here's another hint for you since you obviously haven't made yourself familiar with any of the Scripture that deals with this subject. Jesus Christ doesn't come down to earth for His Church.  The Church Which is the BODY OF CHRIST is caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Rich, in case you have never read it, the above is the RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH. The SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST is a completely separate event and all the way down to the earth.

Just as a matter of huge curiosity, who do you think the members are of the armies that will follow our Lord and Saviour during His Second Coming? If you don't know or have a clue about where to look in the Holy Bible, just make another guess.

Tom

Rich,

P.S.  I just clicked your web site, and the below was the destination:

http://www.microsoft.com/ (http://www.microsoft.com/)

The problem might be the two "http://" that you have in your profile prior to the web address.

Tom

Thanks Mr Bepster,

I removed the "http:// thingies and was able to view the site off to work now so i will read the site later....

If the dead in Christ arise first and join the rest of the believers in the air and go up to Heaven with Jesus - where were the dead in Christ before the rapture?

Hi Rich.  
Not only "where" are they, but "who" are they?
This link is one of the most clear explanations I've read.  I wish I could paraphrase for you, but it's better if you read for yourself - (my paraphrasing would contain bias upon bias - if you understand my meaning).
http://www.tpwmi.com/deadinchrist.html (http://www.tpwmi.com/deadinchrist.html)

Even though I grew up Southern Baptist and my point of view has been skewed by 50 years of "SBC indoctrination" I still try keep an open mind about "non-salvation" issues.  Although I consider myself a "pre-trib rapturist" I enjoy other points of view.

God Bless!
JudgeNot

Brother Rich,

I've been to your web site, and I now believe that you are a brother in Christ. I don't quite understand why you started here by calling other brothers and sisters in Christ names. Maybe you didn't intend it in that way. I especially noticed a large notice on your web site "There is no judgment here."

Brother, we don't have any problem in discussing differences, but we do avoid and stop name calling here. I'm hoping that we can have Christian fellowship here with you. The Christians here discuss differences all of the time, but all of us love JESUS as LORD over our lives. Differing opinions about novels or difficult portions of the Holy Bible are no reason for name calling or condemnation. In short, I hope that you join us in Christian fellowship.

Rich, it's really not a matter of "IF", as the Bible clearly states this precisely.

In answer to your question, only the bodies of the dead in Christ are in the graves.

2 Corinthians 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

If I die before JESUS comes to Rapture the Church Which is the Body of Christ, I will be absent from my body and present with the Lord.

Rich, the below beautiful portions of Scripture should answer your other questions.

Genesis 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Our vile bodies of flesh are simply houses that we use during this short life.  Flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Our vile bodies will be changed into a glorified body at God's appointed time.

Philippians 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Romans 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Corinthians 15:42-52  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:    It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Love In Christ
Tom

Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 5:6  For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Ephesians 1:12-14  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

JudgeNot,

Brother, you and I are in the same boat. I also study and enjoy other points of view, and I feel no condemnation at all for brothers and sisters in Christ who have various views about the Rapture and the Tribulation Period.

The strongest reason for my belief regards the sealing WITH the Holy Spirit of those who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour in this age of Grace. I am of the firm belief that no power in the universe can break the seal of the Holy Spirit or drive the Holy Spirit out of my heart. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Bible Prophecy clearly states that those who take the mark of the beast during the Tribulation Period will be damned for eternity. There is also a loosing of the devil and a removal of the Great Restrainer for the devil to do his work during the Tribulation Period. My conclusion - The Great Restrainer (Holy Spirit) is already in my heart, and the devil can't drive HIM out nor break HIS SEAL. Finally, Daniel's 70th week is determined against Israel, not the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. So, I conclude that the BODY OF CHRIST isn't here for the Tribulation period, rather the BODY is home with JESUS. This is obviously just my opinion, and I do study other points of view, most specifically other points of view that are presented with Scriptures from the Holy Bible.

Regardless, I would still repeat again that I feel no animosity at all for those with different views. There are some true Christians who don't believe in a Rapture of any kind, and my feelings would be the same toward them. If they have JESUS as LORD over their life, we will spend eternity together with JESUS in Heaven regardless of our different opinions now in this short life.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Corinthians 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 Brother BEP said:Tom -
Romans 8:38-39.
 :)

Hi,

 In your understanding of scripture do the terms  ' last day'  and  'last days'  have a different meaning.

Amen Judgenot,

I love that beautiful portion of Scripture. It is one of many precious portions of Scripture that can and should give a Christian 100% assurance of Salvation. I know that the devil wants us to doubt, mainly because that doubt makes us weaker witnesses for Christ. Doubt also makes us weaker in our daily walk in the SPIRIT.

Sister Reba,

The terms of "last days" or "last day" causes a lot of confusion for many people. First, I would want to say that there is no last day, rather eternity. These terms are used to describe the end of the dispensation or age of Grace. This last sentence also causes a lot of confusion for many people. In fact, many people have negative thoughts when they hear the term "dispensation". However, the Apostle Paul clearly labels the age in which we currently live as the Dispensation of Grace.

Very generally, let me give you a brief explanation. In this current dispensation of Grace, we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, not works or deeds. This age will end, and there will be huge differences. More than faith in Jesus Christ will be required for those who are saved during the Tribulation Period. The saved during the Tribulation Period will have to endure to the end, refuse the mark of the beast, and possibly be beheaded for Salvation. Hosts of people who are saved during the Tribulation Period will be hunted and face death. If they do anything other than endure to the end and/or die, they are damned for eternity and lost. So, mighty works and endurance will be required for Salvation during the Tribulation Period, not just a Gift from God, Grace, and faith in Jesus Christ that is Salvation in this current age. Bible Prophecy makes it clear that hosts will die for their Salvation during the Tribulation Period.

Sister, the biggest and most beautiful truth about this current age is the Gospel of the Grace of God, Jesus, the Cross, God's Gift, and Jesus dying for us in our place. We are not required to die for our Salvation during this current age. So, the contrast between the Age of Grace and the Tribulation Period is huge when the topic is Salvation. Courage and endurance is added to the requirements for Salvation during the Tribulation Period. The courage, endurance, and suffering of JESUS on the Cross is the payment for Salvation during this age of Grace.

The "last day" of the Tribulation Period will mark the beginning of the 1,000 year rule and reign of Jesus Christ over the earth from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. The "last day" of the Millennial Kingdom" will simply mark the beginning of another age, and time will be without end.

Sister, I hope that I answered your question.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 25:4  Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths.

Jesus used the term ' last day' 5 times. Trusting His word there will be a last day. Agreeing with you ( i think) that eternity is after the 'last day'
Jesus saw fit to teach about 'last day' and i dont find His words confusing.

John 6:54

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 6:39

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
KJV


John 6:40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 6:54

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day
KJV

John 12:48

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
KJV

Jesus is very direct.

I understand last days to be a period of time, as you say  an age etc.

Some of the  reasons i do not hold to the teaching of my early years (which is what you have posted). Is salvation via works. The suggestion that man can have his blood shed for his own salvation, i do not find scriptural. Jesus Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. He is salvation.

Mr. Bepster,
 I thank you for replying. Asking another question... How does the theology you posted fit into the words of our Lord, in the verses above.

Sister Reba,

The confusion comes to play when people start talking about which last day or days (i.e. the age of Grace, the Tribulation Period, the thousand year reign of Christ, etc.). You will also see references to the last day or days in the Old Testament, most specifically Bible Prophecy, and none of the references in the Bible pertain to an end of time - just an end of an age.

There are obviously several different views of time lines and sequence of events, and there is even disagreement about whether certain events were used for illustration or if they actually represented future reality. I believe they applied to future reality.

So, please let me try to answer your question in general terms using my opinion.

The last day of the age of Grace will usher in the 7 Year Tribulation Period.

The last day of the Tribulation Period will usher in the Millennial Kingdom - the 1,000 year rule and reign of Jesus Christ from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. Please note that some people don't believe this to be a physical reign of Christ from a physical throne on earth. I believe this to be a literal reality. Something to consider here is the Heavenly Reign which is much longer than 1,000 years. AND, the Heavenly Kingdom is already present, not only in Heaven, but in our hearts.

Bible Prophecy clearly states that the devil will be imprisoned for 1,000 years at the end of the Tribulation Period. This coincides with the 1,000 year rule and reign of Christ. Notice the description of imprisonment of the devil, as the devil is NOT cast into the lake of fire for eternity yet. However, the devil will have no power or influence of any type over the earth for that 1,000 years. Again, some people don't believe this description of Bible Prophecy to be literal, but I do. Many people who study Bible Prophecy call the 1,000 year rule and reign of Christ the Kingdom Age, primarily because HE will rule over an earthly Kingdom. You and I already know about the Heavenly Kingdom and probably have no differences at all about that. God has always been the unquestioned King of Kings in the Heavenly Kingdom, but we both know there are hosts of people on earth who have rejected God as King. Every knee will finally bow.

Sister, the verses you quoted deal with the first resurrection. Yes, there is a second resurrection, and this is a matter for additional confusion for many trying to study the deeper things of God's word.

============See Page 2

Sister Reba,

Page 2

The first resurrection also involves the Rapture of the Church, and I already know that some true Christians don't believe in the Rapture of the Church. I do. The dead in Christ will rise first, and this refers to their bodies from the grave, as they are absent from the body and present with the Lord. Those who are still alive in Christ will be caught up after the dead to meet the Lord in the air. Our bodies will be changed into glorified bodies. So, the first resurrection does not include the lost.

The following portion of Scripture should answer many questions, but a detailed study would involved a host of Scriptures from the Old and New Testament.

Revelation 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever
Revelation 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Sister Reba, you will see a reference in the above portion of Scripture (verse 4) about the people who were saved during the Tribulation Period. This portion of Scripture compliments many others. This is just one of the reasons why I believe Bible Prophecy to be literal events, not just illustrations. Verse 6 applies to the first resurrection and those raised as being blessed. The second resurrection happens after the Kingdom age, and it will be for final judgment at the Great White Throne for eternal punishment and casting into the lake of fire with the devil. Yes, there are two judgments, and this also causes a lot of confusion. The one for the lost is for eternal punishment, and the one for the saved is for rewards for good works.

Sister Reba, I probably shouldn't have tried to cram so much information into two little posts. I hope that my attempt to condense so much doesn't cause confusion. A detailed study of this topic would involve a fairly large portion of the Bible and take years. The references that take you all over the Holy Bible are fascinating, and they represent evidence that the Holy Bible had to be inspired by God.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 14:16-18  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

In reading your post i am understanding you believe last day and last days to have the same meaning is this correct?

Mr Bepster,

Your posts are not confusing, I grew up on the theology you post. It was part of my everyday life.  One of my most valued treasures is an old warnout scofield bible.

John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


 Seems to me the words of Christ say the resurection of the 'good' and 'evil' are within the hour.

Sister Reba,

No, I think there are different. I think of the "last day" as being the literal last day of an age and "last days" as being a series of events that may signal the approaching last day of an age. As an example, there is much written in the Holy Bible about the last days of the age of Grace. "Last days" could actually mean many years, and I know that it does in referring to the age of Grace. There is little or no doubt in my mind that the last days of the age of Grace began before 1948, but I could easily be wrong. A series of events were foretold in Bible Prophecy, and I should quickly note there is much disagreement about that series of events. Actually, the best that men can do in many cases is guess and say that a particular event could have been the fulfillment of Bible Prophecy. However, there are quite a few Old Testament Prophecies that have already been fulfilled with such accuracy and detail that there is no doubt at all. An example of this would be the birth, ministry, and crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Again, this was evidence that the Holy Bible had to be inspired by God.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Sister Reba,

You ask good and hard questions.

John 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The hour for resurrection of the just and the unjust will most definitely come, but it won't be the same hour. There are two resurrections spoken of above. Please see the following Scriptures that are additional references for John 5:28 and 29. There are many others, but I'm too tired to keep studying tonight.

Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Thessalonians 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

God deals with believers and unbelievers separately.  Please notice that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 above is the first resurrection, and it only includes the dead in Christ. This also corresponds with many other portions of Scripture, to include Revelations 20. The first resurrection is also the Rapture of the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST.

1 Corinthians 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Corinthians 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Verse 23 above deals with the first resurrection, the resurrection of the righteous, they that are Christ's. Verse 24 speaks "cometh the end", and that refers to the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. One of the purposes of the Millennial Kingdom is to bring all under subjection to Him, and Jesus Christ does just that. Every knee will bow. It is now time for the 2nd resurrection, the resurrection of the lost for final judgment and condemnation to the lake of fire.

Sister, please feel free to ask all the questions you wish, and I'll do the best I can to answer them. I will probably take more time with the next questions. My health is such that I get pretty tired fairly quickly, and I'm afraid that I'll make too many mistakes if I get in a hurry. I'm really hoping that others will also join in here.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 21:13  Be thou exalted, LORD, in thine own strength: so will we sing and praise thy power.

Sister Reba,

I still have my old and worn Scoffield Bible also. I think that my dad gave it to me 45 years ago. It's still in fairly good shape, but the print is small and I have difficulty reading it. Maybe that means it's time for stronger glasses again. My dad passed away in 1998, so the old Bible also has some strong sentimental value.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Mine is from my Daddy also......... :)

I must get off to open the store. I will get back to the scripture when i have more time.... as you are thinking....



John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


If i said to you...."for the hour is coming, in the which Judgenot  and  Ollie will arrive."  What would the time frame be?

[qoute]where were the dead in Christ before the rapture?
The parable of the brides and the bridegroom explains this.


Mat 25:5  While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

We see in 1Co that the dead are referred to as sleeping.

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,



1Co 15:16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


I believe that you and Beps are both saying the same thing about the meaning of the "last day" and "last days". The last day means the last day of a given period.


Joh 7:37  In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

In this verse we see it was the last day of Jesus being with the disciples before His death and resurection. Then in the following verse we know that it is talking about a period of more than one day but toward the ending of a given period (or age).


Act 2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

RichkCt,

Don't leave this website if you have Biblical foundation to share!

I'm practically a newbie at this website, but I'm reading and praying.  So, please post and pray.

Love in Jesus,
selahjoy

I think that we are pretty much on the same sheet of music with most of this discussion.

Sister Reba, there are many people who believe there will be a single resurrection for the just and the unjust, and the portion of Scripture you quoted is one of the main reasons for that belief. You asked for more information about  "the hour", and I only have a few more thoughts right now to share.

If your pastor stood in front of your congregation and said that the hour would come for everyone to die, that would be a different hour for each person. In this discussion, we really only have two categories to consider, the just and the unjust. So, maybe an easier question would be, "Is there more than one resurrection?"

I think the Bible makes it pretty clear that there will be more than one resurrection. I don't know of any other way to explain portions of Scripture like Luke 14:14, Revelation 20:5, 1 Thessalonians 14:13-18, and others. We know that 1 Thessalonians 14:13-18 deals only with the just. We know that Revelation 20:5 speaks of the first resurrection as being the just, a thousand year delay which is the 1,000 year reign of Christ, and the rest of the dead not living again until the end of the thousand years. There is only one category left, so the rest of the dead are the unjust. The only way I know to explain these portions of Scripture is a resurrection of the just as being the first resurrection and a resurrection of the unjust 1,000 years later as being the second resurrection.

However, there is only one Rapture of the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST, and that is the first resurrection, the dead in Christ.

This discussion would lead to other questions that might help to explain John 5:28 and 29.

If there is only a single resurrection that deals with the just and the unjust at the same time:

Why would the Bible refer to a first resurrection? Why not just refer to it as the resurrection if there is only one resurrection?

Why is there no description in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the unjust (lost)?

Who are the dead in Revelation 20:5 who will not live again until the end of the 1,000 years?

Why would Luke 14:14 refer to a resurrection of the just instead of just referring to it as the resurrection?

I have shared some of the reasons for why I believe there are 2 resurrections, but there is much more and some of the Scriptures lead to difficult and lengthy study. I believe that the purpose of the second resurrection is to deliver the unjust up for final judgment, condemnation, and the second death which is actually eternal punishment in the lake of fire. Just a brief study of this topic who involve a host of Scriptures from the Old and the New Testament. I would conclude by saying this is just my opinion, and I realize that many disagree.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

"If your pastor stood in front of your congregation and said that the hour would come for everyone to die, that would be a different hour for each person."

Mr. Bepster the above is a very good responce. Thank you

Are we not resurrected into a new man, at salvation. We who were dead in sin...

Jesus said


John 11:25-26

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
KJV

Sister Reba,

This would be referring to our spirit, not our body of flesh. The new man at Salvation is spirit, not flesh and blood. The resurrection just prior to the Rapture deals with the body of flesh, not the spirit. Why? The spirit is already with Jesus. Absent from the body - present with the Lord.

There are other born-again realities, one being that we are buried with Him, and that would also NOT involve our body of flesh, rather our spirit.

The resurrection of our physical bodies involves a truth that must be met for God to fulfill His promises to us. Flesh and blood can NOT inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, so God gives us a glorified body and keeps His Promise to give us a full inheritance with the Saints in Light.

At a Christian's death, our physical body is sown in corruption and raised in incorruption.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 6:33  For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Rom 14:17

17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
KJV
 

"This would be referring to our spirit, not our body of flesh."

I agree 100%

how do we worship? in spirit and in truth. He has quicken our mortal bodies. Is God conserend of our flesh and blood bodies or our spiritaul side.
Adam and Eve surlly died when they ate of the 'apple' Just as God said they would. The cross of Jesus allows for fellowshhip with Him fellowship that was in the garden

He walks with me and talks with me along lives narrow way He lives He lives....

Sister Reba,

Maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying. When we accept Jesus Christ, it is our Spirit that is quickened with him, not our mortal bodies of flesh. As a Christian, our flesh is the enemy of us and of God. Our flesh is the old man of sin.

Ephesians 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Ephesians 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 2:4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Ephesians 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

1 Peter 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Hi Mr. Bepster  :D

I have  to run 2+ hours to take mom to a Dr appointment so again this is in the fly....

Did Christ die to save or mortal bodies our flesh or did He die to save our souls?

Which is the importiant one the flesh or the soul?

Sister Reba,

It is soul and spirit.

I was just thinking about my physical body. It's broken and worn out, so I'm happy that I won't be spending eternity in it. I've seen many descriptions and illustrations given of the physical body, and it really boils down to being an outward shell. This is only one reason why God doesn't look at outward appearances, rather the heart. In all reality, if someone asks us who were really are, it's our soul and spirit.

God will give us a glorified body to spend eternity in, and much will be little more than a guess about what it will be like. Some portions of Scripture have led some to believe that it might be light. Regardless, there won't be any pain in it.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Revelation 21:23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

        I have something to share. I'm sorry for coming in here like a bull in a china shop calling names to people about this subject.

         I have been going through some personal and family struggles for some time now. My daughter had a cancer scare. The state was investigating my my family for we did nothing wrong and we were found not guilty. Then My wife was unjustisfyably fired from her job. However she has a lawyer and the lawyer as reviewed her case and he says that the place she worked at is at fault and she will get her job back but it will take time. Meanwhile we have to worry about the bills, shelter, medical expenses. If its not one thing its another.

          So I came on here and vented. I dont agree with all the opinions however I was wrong for how I jumped on peoples back about certain things.

          I've been under alot of stress and tension. Felt like putting my head through a wall, depression is bad and I've been having suicidal thoughts...I would apprecaite prayers..

Godbless and Love to all here

Rich

RichkCt,

We all have our problems but it looks like you have had your plate full. None of us are perfect, as such we will have our disagreements.

My prayers are with you and your family.

Hey Rich,

Stress and tension!  Head through a wall!  Down!  I know, believe me, I KNOW what you must be going through.  You will be in my prayers, buddy.  Sometimes it takes a lot to apologize, regardless of whether a person was right or wrong.  Now, I'm going to give you some CU manner lessons..............just kidding. ;D ;)

Father God, through Your son Jesus Christ, touch Rich's family.  Bless them Lord God.  Protect them from the snare and wiles of the enemy.  Bless them with good health, good jobs and a hunger and thirst for You.  Give them guidance and direction, wisdom and courage, and strength and discernment.  Draw all of them closer to You, Father.  Father, expecially, I pray for Rich that You would raise him from the depression of the enemy.  Show him Your hope.  Increase his faith, and help any doubt he might have.  Shower him with Your love Lord God.  Holy Spirit of the living God, fall fresh on Rich, right now.  Let him feel Your presence, Father.  Hold him in Your bosom tonight, Father.  Send people to him who will be of help.  Send Your angels to battle for him and other angels to minister to him and for him.  Just bathe Rich in Your love, Father, all in the name of Your son Jesus Christ.  Receive Rich, receive.

Grace and peace,
cris

Welcome  to CU Rich...

Some where is a post of mine sounds a lot like yours above  most of us have vented here...

Does venting make  Rich part of CU?   :P

Folks here a helpfull hang around get to know 'em

 

Brother Rich,

Many sweet Christians here will be praying for you and your family. Most of us have fought personal, family, and health struggles except maybe the young people here. The difficult times can draw you closer to JESUS and make you stronger in HIM. I pray that is exactly what will happen in your current struggle. Knowing that JESUS walks with us every step of the way is a precious truth.

Brother, I will pray for you and I would appreciate your prayer for me.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Isaiah 30:21  And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

Christ will come back one time. It won't be a secret. Every eye will see Him.
1Cor.15
Christ is indeed coming back, Once, are you ready? :D

God bless you,
bluelake

2 Corinthians 5:10 teaches that all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven. This event, often known as the "Bema Judgment" from the Greek word bema, is an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth. Since such an evaluation would require some passage of time, the pre-trib gap of seven years nicely accounts for such a requirement.

Revelation 19:7-10 pictures the church as a bride who has been made ready for marriage (illustrated as "fine linen," which represents "the righteous acts of the saints") to her groom (Christ); and the bride has already been clothed in preparation for her return at the second coming accompanying Christ to the earth Rev. 19:11-18, it follows that the church would already have to be complete and in heaven (because of the pre-trib rapture) in order to have been prepared in the way that Revelation 19 describes. This requires an interval of time which pretribulationism handles well.

Believers who come to faith in Christ during the tribulation are not translated at Christ's second advent but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children Isa. 65:20-25. This would be impossible if all saints were translated at the second coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach. Because pretribulationists have at least a seven-year interval between the removal of the church at the rapture and the return of Christ to the earth, this is not a problem because millions of people will be saved during the interval and thus be available to populate the millennium in their natural bodies in order to fulfill Scripture.

It would be impossible for the judgment of the Gentiles to take place after the second coming if the rapture and second coming are not separated by a gap of time. How would both saved and unsaved, still in their natural bodies, be separated in judgment, if all living believers are translated at the second coming. This would be impossible if the translation takes place at the second coming, but it is solved through a pretribulational gap.

A time interval is needed so that God's program for the church, a time when Jew and Gentile are united in one body not become commingled in any way with His unfinished and future plan for Israel during the tribulation.  The pretribulational rapture of the church fulfills a biblical need to not only see a distinction between the translation of Church Age saints at the rapture, before the second coming, but it also handles without difficulty the necessity of a time-gap which harmonizes a number of future biblical events. This requirement of a seven-year gap of time adds another plank to the likelihood that pretribulationism best reflects the biblical viewpoint.

Dreamweaver,

EXCELLENT! - I've never seen so much hard-hitting information packed into such a small brief. You also mentioned some unique things that I've never considered. I'm thinking back to some huge discussions we've had here that one could spend many hours just reading.

I just have one more thought for tonight - I hope and pray that JESUS comes for us soon. This old world is getting more evil by the minute.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Timothy 4:7-8 ASV  I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith:  henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give to me at that day; and not to me only, but also to all them that have loved his appearing.

Excellent work Dreamweaver!!

And to think pretrib was nonsense!! ;)

Another thing to consider is the reason for satan being released after the thousand year reign of Jesus and His saints.

 Many wonder why Jesus would release satan. Free will is the answer my friends.

 As DW pointed out, there will be many generations of people born during the thousand years. All these people must be given the same chance to either accept Jesus or reject Him. So satan is released so that there will be a choice.

As incredible as it sounds, there will be some who actually believe satan and side with him. Even though these people would have lived in the light of the Lord for the thousand years. I think the key here is that these people do not get to enter the Holy City. satan will be able to use that to his advantage. he will no doubt convince many that the reason they can not enter the Holy City is because if they did, they would discover that it wasn't God within the Holy walls, but it was actually the devil. satan will convince these people that he is actually God, and that's how he was able to escape his prison. he will gather them who believe in him together and gather at the gates of the Holy City in order to "take it back"

 Just my theory, but satan is very crafty, and he will have some kind of convincing lie which will be powerful enough to trick those who actually live on earth at the same time as Jesus is here.


John

Hi everyone,
When I replied to The first post it was late . I didn't have the energy to give a satisfactory reply. This time I will include scripture.  :)

1Thes.3:13, Jude14 will the saints be with Jesus at His return?
1Thes 4:16-17 Every eye will see him, every ear will hear, a shout a loud trumpet. Does this sound like a secret?
Mt.24;30-31 1Cor.15:20-23
Saints come with Jesus at His retrurn because the resurrection takes place at this time.
Mt.24:31, 1Thes.4:16
Will Christ descend from heaven quietly?
 1Cor.15:15-52
Will the raising of thre dead (the resurrection) and the changing from immortality, for those living, take place at the Last Trump?
Rev.11:15-19
What happens when the 7th. angel sounds ? Is this  a trumpet blast? (Chapter 8:1-26) Is Christ to have  great power? Are the dead to be judged and rewarded at this time?
Is the heaven of God to become visible?
Http://www.keithhunt.com/rapture.html

God bless you,
bluelake

Any one here read Ice?


Most of what is posted here is not scripture. It is a collection of what some folks believe the scriptures to say. A collection of verses, put together, to draw to the conclusion the poster or , author of a artical wishes the reader to conclude.

Hello Sister Reba,

It's great to see you on the forum. I mainly just wanted to say hello. We all know there are varying opinions on this topic, and that's no problem. I must ask you what is Ice?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Isaiah 26:3 ASV  Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee; because he trusteth in thee.

Hello Bluelake,

It's also nice to see you back on the forum. I'm not sure about what you are asking in some of your questions. We do have several threads on the forum with huge amounts of detail. There is a lot of confusion that can be solved by understanding that the Rapture and the Second Coming are two different events.

At the Second Coming, the LORD comes all the way down to the earth. The Saints will be caught up to meet the LORD in the air at the Rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 NASB  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.    Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

This is not the Second Coming, but it is the Rapture.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Corinthians 2:2-5 ASV  For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.  And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.  And my speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:  that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

In youir views which is the time Jesus steps on the  mountain?  At rapture or second coming? And what of the temple at this time?

Reba,


Institution of Civil Engineers Magazine??  I used to read it all the time but I"m sure that isn't what you mean??

Ice is one of many rapture teachers.  

Thank you for your reply. Not all churches teach pre -Tribulation.
. 'The main differences of opinion concern the time of the rapture. The primary theories are: 1) Pretribulation rapture; 2) Midtribulation rapture; 3) Posttribulation rapture; 3) Partial rapture, which is sort of a Marine Corps rapture where only the perfect, only the brave, only the few are worthy to be raptured before the wrath of God is poured out; 5) Postmillenial rapture; and 6) Amillenialist rapture. Take your pick. '

(. . . There is also the new theory of No Rapture.)

I believe Jesus will come back one time. I understand that not all believe as I do. It's been awhile since I've done a study on this topic.
Concerning the questions, I included scriptures that support the questions.  :)

God bless you,
bluelake.

 These verses are for those who are not familliar with them.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.  

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.  

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 It's best to let God do the talking over anyone who writes his or her opinion in a book, whether his name is Ice or Peter Pan.

 It's ok to read books, but if they don't line up perfectly with the scriptures, I toss them.
 Jesus Christ is the final authority, not me, not an author.

Bronzesnake,

The above portion of Scripture and others speak volumes. There are many facts that can be extracted directly from the Scriptures, compiled, and compared with other portions of Scripture that address the same topic.

If the author or person doing the Bible study lists the Scriptures as the authority for a thought and lets the reader compare the thought to the authority of the Scripture, that's what I want to read when I do my own study. I'm not familiar with many of the authors mentioned these days. Most of my favorite studies on this topic and others are from men of God who are already home with their Lord and Saviour.

As an obvious result for me, my favorite studies heavily use references from the Holy Bible. We have many threads on Christians Unite that are heavily documented from the Holy Bible. In that way, facts can be established that are not simply a matter of opinion. However, the differences still appear with some who choose to call a portion of Scripture a metaphor or something other than literal. Other differences involve the time-line and sequence of events in Bible Prophecies, and these types of differences should be expected.

I choose to take the Holy Bible's descriptions of the Rapture, the Tribulation Period, the Second Coming of Jesus, and the 1,000 year rule and reign of Christ as literal, so I call them facts. I would be quick to point out that differences of opinion on these topics should never be an excuse to break fellowship between Christians.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 13:20-21 ASV  Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus, make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 
Wow  and we thought this day would never come!  Bronze i could not agree with you more !

Nicely stated as usual my brother. I agree totally!  :D

 Is this the begining of a renewed friendship my sister?
I've been waiting for this day to come. You know I have a fond spot in my heart for you! :)

;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D

 ;D   :D

 :P

 I haven't had to work this hard since I was courting my wife!!

 Come on Reba! Send me your address so I can send you some flowers!

 

[size=12]GOT YA![/size]  :P :D

 This time is for real...

 This I'll have to do...I'm broke! :-\

 

2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Ice has stated and, most here agree with Ice, that some how 2 Cor  5 :10 fills  a gap in time.  We seem to agree that the scriptures are the  authority not an author. So tell me where does 2 Cor 5 10 tell us of a passage of time.
 







Ice again states this requires an interval of time. The scriptures are the authority not Ice and the scriptures do not speak of an interval of time.



Following the theory of the tribulation how ever could ‘saints’ have a job or build a house and carry on ‘ordinary occupations’ ? They would need the mark of the beast to do such and then they wouldn’t be saints correct?



The above is conjecture not scripture. I could not find the statement ‘judgment of the gentiles’ in the Bible. Does any here know the Book and chapter it can be found in?



  More conjecture, this again is not scripture but Thomas Ice’s view of scripture.  God is the creator of time. How many here will say God is outside of time and yet fall in to believing God needs time. What do the scriptures say?

Ice’s statement was about 460 words . The closes to scripture is

Which is only about 30 words. Again I ask what do the scripture say.

I'm almost hesitant to respond to this thread. I don't want to upset anyone, so let me begin by saying that the following is my "opinion" of what I believe about the Rapture based on my understanding of the scriptures.

I guess it would be best to state my beliefs. I believe in a pre tribulation rapture of all faithful bible-believing Christians.
 Here is my scriptural reference for this belief.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  

 These verses clearly describe Jesus descending from Heaven "with a shout" and the "voice of the archangel" and with the "trump of God"

 Immediately following this, the "dead in Christ" shall rise first.
This is a resurrection - the dead rise.
Then, we, which are "alive" and "remain" - What does this "remain" mean? I believe it is in reference to those Christians who are alive at the time Jesus descends from heaven.

 we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 So, Jesus descends from heaven with a "shout" with the voice of the "archangel" and with the "trump of God" and raises the dead and the living up to meet Him in the clouds - this is a very important detail, because we meet Jesus in the clouds. This shows that Jesus has not set His foot on the Mount of Olives at this point. He is waiting for us in the "clouds" This cannot be the second coming, because Jesus has not set foot on the earth.

Consider the following verses.

2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.  

 I believe these two verses are very important as corroboration for a pre trib rapture.

 These verses describe judgment of the resurrected saints.
Luke 14:14 states clearly that we will not receive our reward until the resurrection.

 Now take a look at Rev 4

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 Now, this voice which John hears sounded like a "trumpet" which is exactly what 1Th 4:16 describes. The voice commands "come up hither" - so John is "raised up" just like those in the 1Th 4 verses. There are many bible scholars who believe these are simultaneous occurrences. This is also what I believe (I am not a scholar  :P) although I am a bible student.

If there were additional scriptures, which showed the future vision, which John was describing was in fact the resurrection event, and that it preceded the Tribulation, we could wrap things up nicely right? Well there is. Have a look at the following verses.

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.  

Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.  

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 Here we have it. The twenty-four elders - twelve, which represent the Old Testament saints, and twelve, which represent the New Testament saints. The important details are - 1) they are clothed in white raiment

     - 2) they had on their heads crowns of gold.
 These two details prove that they have been judged by Jesus at the resurrection of the just, and have received their
reward 2Co 5:10 and Luk 14:14 thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

 These Rapture verses are found in Rev 4

 The Tribulation does not begin until Rev 6, so the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation.

 
 Very often in the scriptures, and especially when dealing with biblical prophecy, we are able to extrapolate God's message through reasonable deduction. This isn’t to say we can insert our own fanciful theories, but through reasonable deduction we can get at the meaning.

 Consider the following verses for example...

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 In the above verse we see the actual second coming of King Jesus. It doesn’t actually say “second coming” but by reading the description given, we can reasonably extrapolate it’s meaning.

To Continue...

Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

 The above two verses identify Him as King Jesus.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 This verse, in exact opposition to the Rapture verses of 1Th 4:14-18   which had faithful servants being lifted up (Raptured) to Heaven, has faithful saints following King Jesus "from" Heaven. There is no mistaking who these "armies" are. We are described as wearing "fine linen, white and clean"

 So in Rev 4, we are seen in Heaven. We return from Heaven with King Jesus after the seven-year Tribulation.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 The above verse describes those who came to accept Jesus after the Rapture - they were left behind as non-believers or as "weekend Christians" that refused to follow the rules of Jesus. Unrepentant homosexual "Christians, adulterers, thieves, sexual deviants, liars etc. These folks realised their mistake after the Rapture, and refused to accept satan and his mark. Many of these people were converted to Christ through the two witnesses and the 144,000 converted Jews, who God miraculously protects throughout the entire Tribulation as the following scriptures confirm...

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.  

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.  

 Some of these, in fact many, will be beheaded for their refusal to accept satan and his mark, as Rev 20:4 describes. It also tells us that those who were beheaded for their belief in Jesus, "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." which immediately begins at the conclusion of the destruction of satan's armies through the brightness of His coming. So, those who were executed for their new found faith in Jesus, were resurrected, and that ended the "first resurrection"

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.  

 Those who died without Jesus would remain dead until Jesus resurrects (second resurrection) them at the final judgment, when they will be tossed into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.  

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,  

 Why would satan be held for a thousand years if all God's saints were already saved?

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.  

 Where did all these people come from? These are the descendants of the people who went through the entire seven year Tribulation, and did not worship satan, nor did they receive his mark. If they did, they would have been destroyed along with all satan's other friends at the brightness of His coming. They would have remained dead throughout the entire thousand year reign, as Rev 20:5 states. Many were beheaded, but many must have survived without being caught. These will also be the descendants of the protected 144,000 Jews, who were not executed because they had the mark of God on their foreheads.

 So for many generations, there would be human life on earth during the entire thousand-year reign of Jesus. These would not "reign" with Jesus. We know this, because Rev 20:4 tells us only the saints which followed Jesus out of Heaven at the second coming, and "those who were beheaded  for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God" would reign with Him for the thousand years.

 So again, why would Jesus let satan out? Why didn't Jesus simply toss satan into the lake of fire as soon as He returned?
The answer is free will None of us come to Jesus by His force. Jesus says we must "freely" accept Him. Same for these generations of humans who have been born during this thousand-year period.

 Incredibly, there are many who fall for satan's lies as the scriptures clearly state the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.  

 Saying that satan cannot be underestimated is a serious understatement!

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 The verse above describes the end game, when King Jesus finally pits an end to satan and his followers for ever, as the following verses describe...

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Following that, we are in for an indescribable eternity with our King Jesus!! ;D :D ;D :D ;D

I will not be able to put together a post as well written as Bornze's but i will restate my beliefs.

I guess you all would clasify me as post trib as in WAY post trib....Many of you here know my view as a orthodox preterest. The simplest way to say it is, I understand most of Revelation to have happened.  BEFORE YOU ALL KILL ME I DO KNOW HE WILL RETURN.  I believe 'John' to be describing the seage of Jerusalem 70 AD. I know many will not axcept the early dating of the Revelation but i do. Scripture back up for my thoughts ......


Rev 1:1-3
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
KJV

The leveling of the city was the end of the , for lack of better words, temple age. The generation that did the killing of Jesus, Those priest etc were done in. Matt 23. God distroyed the temple built by man God ended the old covenant.


The most importiant ''rapture' scriptures to me are....

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

They are a quote of Jesus our Lord God ....I want my thoughts to fit into His Word and also to fit into His words.

 

2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Ice has stated and, most here agree with Ice, that some how 2 Cor  5 :10 fills  a gap in time.  We seem to agree that the scriptures are the  authority not an author. So tell me where does 2 Cor 5 10 tell us of a passage of time.Taken in content with; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive  and are left will be caught up  together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words."
Reba, can you see where I get time from?

 
I am looking at it through Rosh HaShanah. Rosh HaShanah is celebrated for two days because of uncertainty about observing the festivals on the correct calendar day. Rosh HaShanah is the only holiday celebrated for two days in Israel. As with all other festivals, the uncertainty was involved in a calendar that depended on when the new moon was promulgated, designating the beginning of each new month by the rabbinical court in Jerusalem  A Jewish year, is 360 days. A Georgian year, is 365 days.



More conjecture, this again is not scripture but Thomas Ice’s view of scripture.  God is the creator of time. How many here will say God is outside of time and yet fall in to believing God needs time. What do the scriptures say?

Ice’s statement was about 460 words . The closes to scripture is

Which is only about 30 words. Again I ask what do the scripture say.

Revelation 19:7-10  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

And yes, scriptures are the authority not man, or woman. By the way, your writing/spelling has gotten better. Heading back to bed now, cause I've been sick.

Resting in the arms, of the Lord.
Bob

Rev 1:1-3
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 I believe John was being shown a future vision, and therefore the things which John saw would "shortly come to pass"

 I have some major problems with preterism.
If all the prophecies from Rev have already come to pass in A.D.70, then there are some major details missing.

 When did Russia and the Arab confederacy attack Israel?
Ezekiel 38 and 39 most clearly describe this devestating attack. These scriptures are too long to post, but I encourage you to look them over.

 Look at Ezekiel 38:8 for a general outline of the war.

Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land [that is] brought back from the sword, [and is] gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.  

 Ezekiel was given a vision (Ezekiel 38 and 39) which describes a huge confederacy of nations, led by Magog (Russia)

 Ezekiel 38:18,19,21 describe God's reaction to this unprovoked attack.

 God unleashes the greatest earthquake in the history of the planet.

Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy [and] in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;  

Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that [are] upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.  

 When did this occur in 70A.D.?

 Ezekiel said God will send fire on Magog (Russia) and those who live securely on the coastline.

Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.  

Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that [are] with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.  

 Ezekiel says God's vengeance on Israel's enemies will leave so many dead, that it will take the Jews seven months to bury them.

Eze 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the [noses] of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call [it] The valley of Hamongog.  

Eze 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.  

 The area described as the burrial ground is in a valley east of the Dead Sea in Jordan. It is called "Hamongog" which means "The valley of the multitude of Russia"

 Ezekiel says Russia's weapons and fuel will not be waisted...

Eze 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:  

 The Russian army transports enomous quantities of fuel in portable and inflatable fuel dumps. Some of their weapons are made of Iignostone, which is a combustable material.

 These things have not occured as of yet.

Jesus gave us many details of the end times.

In Matthew24:3 Jesus was asked, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?"  Jesus told his apostles to look for  the following signs prior to his second coming and the end of the age.

Matthew 24:5 "For many will come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and will mislead many."

Matthew 24:11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many."

Matthew 24:6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end."

Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."

Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."

The number and intensity of earthquakes this century is at a level higher than any other time in history.  A staggering number of seismic events occur around the world daily.  The earthquake seismic monitor IRIS shows all major earthquakes for the last year.  Indicated by yellow and red circles, the seismic events of the last 15 days provides strong evidence of the fulfillment of Matthew 24:7 in our day.  By contrast, in the years from 1890 to 1900 there was only one major earthquake in the world


Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."

Matthew 24:8-9 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.  Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of my name."

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come."

II Timothy 3:1-5,7 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.  For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

I Timothy 4:1-3 "But the spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.  By means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth."

 The Rev describes a Temple which satan enters and proclaims himself to be God. We do not find the temple being destroyed anywhere in end times prophecies.


 I could go on, but I don't want to come off as pushy.

These are just some of the "missing" details for a preterest doctrine.

 Dreamweaver

 

 Nope   :)

I sure dont see it DW. How does the time gap you see fit in the words of Jesus?  The  time i see is the hour Jesus speaks of.


Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

In my mind shortly is not 2000+ years, campare the terms shortly and at hand used in other places in scripture and 2000+years  doesn't fit.


To Eze....

Eze reads about the same as The Revelation.


When has Israel not been under attack?

 

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

 John was transported in time - spiritually - to the future . Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.  
 The visions John saw have not yet occurred - this is evident because of the fact that the twenty-four elders are depicted wearing clean, white linen, and wearing crowns. This cannot be possible until the resurrection of the just, and we know that has not happened yet, because if it has, then we are all in Hell right now. Jesus told John these things would shortly happen. Not from the time of John, 2,000 years ago, but from the point in time in the future, where John was transported by Jesus so he could warn the future end times generation of what signs to look for and what exactly to expect.

 Ezekiel is another example of a man being shown events, which would not happen in his own time, but rather, in the distant future. The bible is loaded with such prophetic visions. There are loads of prophecies about the coming messiah, Jesus, in the Old Testament, which were written two thousand years before Jesus appeared on earth.

 
 I agree, Israel has been under constant attack throughout it's history, just as God said it would.
My point is that Russia and the Arab confederate and Asians nations have never attacked Israel simultaneously as the Revelations, Daniel and Ezekiel describe. These are the future events, which John saw, which Jesus told him would soon come to pass.

 There are many more examples of events described in Revelation, which simply have not occurred yet. When did Jesus set His feet on the Mount of Olives and cause the great earthquake which knocked down every mountain and building on earth? I saw some very magnificent mountains here in Canada, in British Columbia, which I seriously doubt grew over the past 2,000 years. It hasn't happened yet my sister. Preterism is not a sound biblical doctrine in my humble opinion, it doesn't add up.

I have been reading through this interesting topic today. It has been a while since I have been here, but it is good to read again the thoughtful posts of Blackeyedpeas and Bronzesnake as well as the others.

Since I am rarely able to make it up here I have considered not posting on this subject at all as my somewhat preterist opinion differs with others I have come to respect through their manner and godly attitudes. Allow me to say with all sincerity that I would rather remain completely silent on this topic then to cause anyone to disregard anything I have said on essential matters -God's everlasting grace in Christ - because of a differing view on the Rapture, which I consider secondary. My posts are not given with the intent of causing anger. If we disagree on eschatology, I assure you we agree that Christ is Lord, and there is no Way but Him. Much of my post is from a conversation I had recently at my church.

I admit freely that Eschatology is not my "forte’". I know for some it is a very important issue. In the end I find, for me, the thing that matters isn't my eschatological views so much, but do I have a relationship with the Lord my God through Jesus Christ? I can be wrong about eschatology -I must not be wrong  about trusting Jesus. I do not say that to minimize those to whom eschatology, whatever the view, is of prime importance. I am only being honest about my own simple understanding.

 
Much, not all, of what we believe about eschatology is taken from the book of revelation. The book of Revelation is, to say the least, a difficult book. The question for many is how literally do we take it? In my opinion -not very, at least not in the sense that events or places are described as they actually are, but rather events and places are used as descriptive of Spiritual truths -most specifically as it concerns the New Covenant.

Now of course the question becomes by what authority would this be said?

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."  Revelation 1:1-3

The "revealing" of Jesus to show things that must shortly (a distinct time frame) come to pass was given to John in the words of this prophecy for the time was "at hand". Notice the word "signify".  The Revelation was signified by the following vision, or series of visions, and was written down as John was instructed in 1:11, "What thou seest, write in a book."

So were the visions literal or spiritual? I believe they were spiritual. The New Covenant is spiritual. God is Spirit, Jesus said the words that I speak they are Spirit and they are Life. The first Adam was earthly; the second Adam is the Lord from Heaven. Jesus told Nicodemus that if he didn't understand when He spoke to him of earthly things how would he understand if He spoke to him of heavenly things. I believe Revelation is speaking to us symbolically of heavenly things.

I think most would agree there is not a literal woman out in space clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. Most would agree there is no literal seven headed, ten horned, crowned beast somewhere out in the sea awaiting for the appropriate time to make itself known. Most accept these as spiritual illustrations. Being full of spiritual illustrations explaining spiritual truths I accept the entire book as spiritual, and often best understood in light of the epistles, or other books of the Bible.

For example the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 3:12  "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

Revelation 21: 1-4 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Hebrews 12:22-24 "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

John and the writer of Hebrews are speaking of the same thing; only the language in Hebrews is not from the vision that John was given. Notice the present tense of his wording -ye are come to the heavenly Jerusalem. The writer is not looking for it in the distance; he sees it as a present reality. How? By the blood of Jesus!

The heavenly Jerusalem is not seen as a literal city of brick and mortar, or literal gold for that matter, but rather the writer sees the Heavenly Jerusalem as the place that God’s people now dwell in Christ - in the New Covenant! As literal, or "natural" Jerusalem was the earthly place of residency for the priesthood in the Old Covenant, and so corresponds to that covenant, so now do we as a "royal priesthood" (1Peter 2:9)  dwell in the everlasting Covenant that Jesus established by His Cross!

Establishing again that we are now, and not later, seated in heavenly places Paul said in Ephesians 2: 4-6, "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

Notice the wording again is not that God will raise us up so that we will one day sit in heavenly places, but that He has (or hath) -past tense - already done these things. So what are these Heavenly places? Paul is using the same illustration that was given in Hebrews, and so establishing again the heavenly place, or heavenly Jerusalem as the writer of Hebrews called it, is the New Covenant. This is where we live.

Can this be demonstrated in Revelation? I believe it can if we remain consistent in the definitions the Bible writers used. Being consistent it would follow that what the New Jerusalem is in one book (those who dwell in the New Covenant), it must also be in another. Keeping this in mind I would like to take a look at a few scriptures again.

Rev 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

If the new heaven, or New Jerusalem, is the New Covenant in Ephesians, and Hebrews, then what John’s Revelation is revealing to us is also about the Covenants.

to be continued...

continued.....

John is speaking about the same thing that Paul speaks of so often -the changing of the covenants. The Old Covenant is passed away being fulfilled in Christ.

Another confirmation is found in the latter part of the verse "there was no more sea". Thinking naturally we would assume John means there is no large body of water, but spiritually speaking, and allowing the scriptures to interpret themselves, I believe the true nature of the sea is more readily found in 1Kings 7. The chapter is about the furnishings of the temple (obviously Old Covenant) in Jerusalem. We read in verses 23-25– "And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. And under the brim of it round about there were knops compassing it, ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about: the knops were cast in two rows, when it was cast. It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward"  

The "sea" in the temple was for outer washings so those doing service could cleanse themselves before going into the presence of God. What is being revealed in John’s vision, consistently considering scripture, is there is no need for a "sea" in this New Covenant! It is Jesus who has cleansed us, and by His grace washed us from sin! We cannot cleanse ourselves! There is no more "sea" because this is not a covenant of works, but a covenant grace through faith! The Lord God Himself does the cleansing, and anything else is an insult to the Spirit of Grace!

Rev 21: 2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

This is the same as Hebrews 12:22 – we in the New Covenant, the church, are the New Jerusalem that John is revealing, that needs no "sea".

Rev 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God"

This is the relationship that each Christian has with God. God IS in with us, and He DOES dwell in us. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" 1 Corinthians 3:16

Rev 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

The former things, the Old Covenant, have passed away. No more tears and crying as men try to justify themselves with the weight of rules and regulations from the Law of Moses. No sorrow from never being good enough, no pain of laboring under a law that never justified, or saved a soul. The Old Covenant is no longer binding – rejoice in the grace of our God! The Law came by Moses, but grace and truth by Jesus Christ!

Rev 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful"

Old things, the Covenant of works, are passed away! All things are made new in Jesus!

Rev 21:6 "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

It is done! The law satisfied, and completed by the living Christ! "It is finished" John 19:30.  So that now "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." John 7:38.
Rev 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son"

We only overcome by faith in Christ! He is our God, and we are His children purchased with His own Blood! Trusting in our works, or the works of the Old Covenant, is to be outside the Grace of God. This I believe is what is being revealed in the Revelation of Jesus Christ – He is God and there is no way to eternal life but through Him.

I believe it is the same in Revelation 20. The white throne is not something to come but, as is Revelation 21, descriptive of something that is.

Rev 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

Heaven, the first heaven -the Old Covenant, and earth, those who trusted in it, are fled away from Him. There is no place for the Old Covenant, or anyone who would approach God by works, in the New Covenant.

The throne of God is in our hearts –we are the temple of God. Where He is Holy.

Rev 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

All stand before God. As the Book of Life is where the names of believers are written by virtue of the New Covenant, it is the Old Covenant where men are judged according to their works. As The Book of Life is the New Covenant, it is consistent then that the "books" are the law and the prophets – the Old Covenant.

 Rev 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works"

Another reference to the Old Covenant as the "Sea" –the system of works – along with death and hell – the state or place of those with out Christ – give up the dead where they are judged according to their works.

Rev 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Judgment is all that awaits those would be justified by the works of the Law.

Rev 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Only those who justified by Christ, and not works, walk in Life!

As I said earlier, eschatology isn’t my strongest area. I don’t have all the answers, and can’t pretend to have unraveled Revelation anymore than anyone else. I do understand God’s grace, and that most of the New Testament is dealing with the Covenant’s, and the primacy of the New over the Old.  It is my opinion this extends into the book of Revelation as well.

I am not able to be on the board as often as I would like, and I don't expect to be much agreed with on this topic, but I hope to have added a thoughtful post.

In His Grace

Psalmistsinger,

 Nice to have another around in agreement   :)

Your post make clear sense to me thanks for taking the time to write.

 Amen, I agree 100%

 However, I do take the bible literally. I do take Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation literally.

 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." Revelation 1:1-3


 I believe you are using the word "visions" out of the context from which they are used in Revelation. The word vision means sight - John saw future events unfold in front of his eyes. There is no indication whatsoever that these "visions" are anything less than literal, future events.

 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;"

 I read this literally. God wanted to show (not just John) His "servants" (plural) things which, "must" (the word "must" reinforces a literal event which will happen in the near future) shortly come to pass;

 As I have already pointed out, at the point that Revelation 1:1-3 is occurring, John is told he has been taken in spirit, to witness a future end times prophecy. We are told that John is taken into the future in order to record everything he sees, so that God's servants can know what is going to happen in this future end times age.

 "John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw."

 We can not see spiritual things with our eyes, yet here, John is instructed to watch, and to record what he "saw"

 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand"

 This is not a spiritual "lesson" it is a "prophecy"

 Prophecy: A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.

Please allow me to deal with "the time is at hand"

 In Rev 1 through Rev 3 John is taken through the entire Church age, where Jesus gives very specific warnings and blessings to each Church.

 At the conclusion of these seven Church ages, the faithful bible believing Christians are Raptured. Let's look at a couple of verses, which corroborate this Rapture.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 In Rev 4, John is at this exact point and time in the future when 1Th 4:16-17 takes place.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither (Rapture), and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.  

Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.  

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  
 
This is the resurrection of the faithful Christians. We can be certain of this because these twelve Old Testament elders, and twelve New Testament elders are depicted clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold

Luke 14:14 clearly states that we will not receive our reward until after the resurrection of the just.

Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.  

 Taken together, these verses clearly show a Raptured church in Heaven, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold having been through the resurrection of the just! :D

 Not only that, but we know the tribulation does not occur until Rev 6! :D So, this proves a pre-trib Rapture! :D

To Continue...

 Jesus Himself gave us a clue to corroborate this pre-trib Rapture in John 11:24

Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.  

Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:  
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?  

 Why would Jesus say that?
The first part makes perfect sense. “He who believes in me. though he were dead, yet shall he live.” No problem here right?

 But what did Jesus mean when He said… "whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"?

 This in a direct corroboration of the Rapture verses from 1Thes 4:16-17 Those who were dead when He calls from the clouds will be taken up, and then, those who remain alive at that same time will also be taken up to meet Him in the clouds!! :D

 We are told to "comfort" each other with this good news...

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


 My friend. The bible does have "figurative" language throughout, but wherever figurative language is used, there is most certainly biblical explanation of the literal meaning.

For example -


I disagree. I submit that most would understand the literal meaning of such figurative language, because it is found in the Bible.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

 If we simply stop reading the bible at these verses we can come to an erroneous conclusion that these "visions" are spiritual, or metaphorical. However, if we read the entire chapters we can get the meaning of the literal events, which these figurative verses are describing.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

There we have it. The ten horns represent ten future leaders of ten nations (European Union, which has ten permanent members - all were part of the Roman Empire of antiquity) which will be headed by satan when he takes the world reins.

 
Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Their is literal meanings for these "figurative' visions which John "saw" with his own eyes, and was commanded by Jesus Himself, to write down everything he witnessed. What possible "spiritual" meanings could be extrapolated from these verses? If these were "spiritual" then each individual human would be left to make up his or her own interpretation of the scriptures - we would in effect, become God, deciding what personal doctrine we would "customize" in order to best fit into our personal lifestyles. Our God is a literal God. He does not play "spiritual" head games, which would only serve to cause mass confusion.

Jesus took John into the future (Jesus can do that) and showed John the terrifying future world events, which would (at that time) soon come to pass. Clearly, Russia, Asia and the Arab nations are described unleashing devastating attacks against Israel. Clearly, these attackers are completely annihilated by God - so much so that the Jews will take seven years to bury the dead. These are literal battles, which are described in unambiguous, and meticulous detail, and easily understood by any who would simply "hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein"

 I could go on for many more pages, but I believe my point is either made now, or will never be made.

I agree, the main thing is that we accept Jesus into our hearts, and ask for forgiveness of our sins. Then we must actually repent, and fight the good fight against our sinful nature.

It's been a pleasure debating this with my friends here, and I personally have no ill feelings or resent toward any other person's personal belief. However, I do feel it is incumbent upon all bible-believing Christians to heed the warnings of Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.  

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.  

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.  

 This is a direct reference to the Rapture.
The second coming will not be a secret. We are told exactly how many days from the signing of the seven year peace treaty that will pass until Jesus returns with His Raptured Saints from Heaven, as described in Rev 19:14

Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.  

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.  

Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.  

Rev 1:1  The Revelation602 of Jesus2424 Christ,5547 which3739 God2316 gave1325 unto him,846 to show1166 unto his848 servants1401 things which3739 must1163 shortly1722, 5034 come to pass;1096 and2532 he sent649 and signified4591 it by1223 his848 angel32 unto his848 servant1401 John:2491


G1722ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.

G5034
τάχος
tachos
takh'-os
From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste: - + quickly, + shortly, + speedily

G5036ταχύς
tachus
takh-oos'
Of uncertain affinity; fleet, that is, (figuratively) prompt or ready: - swift.

Rev 1:3  Blessed3107 is he that readeth,314 and2532 they that hear191 the3588 words3056 of this prophecy,4394 and2532 keep5083 those things which are written1125 therein:1722, 846 for1063 the3588 time2540 is at hand.1451



G1451
ἐγγύς
eggus
eng-goos'
From a primary verb ἄγχω agchō (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of G43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time): - from, at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

If anyone here believes shortly to be 2000+ years... I could use a loan of a few thousand and will pay you back shortly.    ;D..Literaly the scriptures say shortly and the diffination of shortly is posted above.

USGS..

Q: Why are we having so many earthquakes? Has earthquake activity been increasing? Does this mean a big one is going to hit? OR We haven't had any earthquakes in a long time; does this mean that the pressure is building up and there will be a big one?
A: Although it may seem that we are having more earthquakes, earthquakes of magnitude 7.0 or greater have remained fairly constant throughout this century and, according to our records, have actually seemed to decrease in recent years. A partial explanation may lie in the fact that in the last twenty years, we have definitely had an increase in the number of earthquakes we have been able to locate each year. This is because of the tremendous increase in the number of seismograph stations in the world and the many improvements in global communications. In 1931, there were about 350 stations operating in the world; today, there are more that 4,000 stations and the data now comes in rapidly from these stations by telex, computer and satellite. This increase in the number of stations and the more timely receipt of data has allowed us and other seismological centers to locate many small earthquakes which were undetected in earlier years, and we are able to locate earthquakes more rapidly. The NEIC now locates about 12,000 to 14,000 earthquakes each year or approximately 35 per day. Also, because of the improvements in communications and the increased interest in natural disasters, the public now learns about more earthquakes. According to long-term records (since about 1900), we expect about 18 major earthquakes (7.0 - 7.9) and one great earthquake (8.0 or above) in any given year. However, let's take a look at what has happened in the past 32 years, from 1969 through 2001, so far. Our records show that 1992, and 1995-1997 were the only years that we have reached or exceeded the long-term average number of major earthquakes since 1971. In 1970 and in 1971 we had 20 and 19 major earthquakes, respectively, but in other years the total was in many cases well below the 18 per year which we may expect based on the long-term average.
http://interactive2.usgs.gov/faq/list_faq_by_category/get_answer.asp?id=153 (http://interactive2.usgs.gov/faq/list_faq_by_category/get_answer.asp?id=153)

 If the time period were actually 2,000 years I would be in complete agreement. However, I keep trying to explain that John is seeing visions from the "future" In that future time period these things are about to occur shortly. In fact, John witnesses each and every one of the events described in Revelation. Revelation describes events, which occur over a seven-year period. So from the point where Jesus made that "shortly" statement, the actual events did occur shortly thereafter, and John was there to see them with his own two eyes, and was commanded to record what he “saw”

 I don't know how much plainer I can make this.

 If that's the only hanging point, then what about all the other prophetic visions John witnessed? Did all those terrifying events take place?

 Also, we must listen to Jesus' own warnings about what to look for in the end times. He didn't say when one, or some of these things come to pass. He said when all of these things come to pass - as in, at the same time. So we can't simply say, "well, wars and rumours of wars have happened throughout history" or "we've always had earthquakes"
This is the only time in history where all these "end times" prophecies are occurring at the same time.
We are witnessing record heat waves, record cold snaps, record famines, record diseases, record volcanic activity, record earthquakes (your own post states - we have definitely had an increase in the number of earthquakes we have been able to locate each year ) we have record floods, record droughts, record wars, record hurricanes, record tornadoes etc.

 What more do we need to see before we take Jesus at His word? All these things are happening in our lifetimes, we are witnessing it personally, but we still refuse to believe Jesus.

 Jesus told us that the Jews would be tossed from their country, and would be scattered to the four corners of the world. That happened in 70A.D. Jesus told the disciples that the Temple would be destroyed and that not one single stone would be left on top of another. This was utterly unthinkable to any man woman or child in Israel, because the Temple was on top of a massive stone block "mountain" which Herrod built, and the Temple itself was huge. No one, and I suspect even the disciples couldn’t imagine it happening. Yet, in 70 A.D. Titus and his Roman Legions did exactly that. The Temple was destroyed and the Jews were tossed.

 Jesus didn't stop there. Jesus told His disciples that another great sign of the end times would be when the Jews would return back to their homeland, Israel. That did not happen until 1948, and in 1967 the Jews were finally able to gain possession of the Holy City of Jerusalem. Jesus said that the generation which lived to see the Jews back in control of Israel and Jerusalem would be the end times generation which would "not pass" before His Triumphant return.

 It is a fact that archaeologists excavated the Temple and to the astonishment of the world, they discovered that the destruction was so devastating, that not one stone was left on top of another.

 Roman soldiers actually knocked each stone to the ground in order to scrape the gold, which had melted and seeped between the cracks away.

 These prophecies do not line up with Preterism. Unless you can find historical records which show the complete flattening and destruction of every mountain and building on earth - the utter annihilation of the Russian, Arab, and Asian armies. You would be hard pressed to prove the Jews had secretly returned home and gained complete control of Israel immediately following their deportation to the four corners of the earth by Titus and his armies.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

 Were do we see this in the history books of 70A.D.?

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 This happened in 70 A.D.?

 I hope my posts are not coming across as ill spirited. It is truly not my intention. We all believe in Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, as we have already stated. That's all we need.

I will get into trouble if i continue so this will be my last here for a while.....




Luke 11:50-52

50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
KJV

Matt 23:31-36

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
KJV


sheesh

Reba my sister.

I am not in the least bit upset at you or your ideas about the scriptures. I would hope the same goes for you towards me.

The concept of a forum is for folks to debate topics. There could be no debate if we all agreed with each other.

It's is impossible for us to convey our attitude toward each other through an anonamously wirtten message such as it is on foums. At times, we may get the idea that a poster is being pushy, or condenscending, or self-rightious, when in fact the exact opposite is true. I know this first hand. I have mistook certain posts directed at me ;) I have learned from such experiences.

I would love to hear your explanations for the scriptures which you posted. It's virtually impossible for me to know from what context these verses are relevent in relation to your opinion.

However, if you are feeling uncomfortable about things, then I completely understand Reba. Let me just say this - even though we have different opinions about prophecy, I do respect your opinions, and I have no doubt that you love Jesus with all your heart.

God bless you Reba.

John

Sister Reba,

I enjoy looking at and studying several points of view. So, post away. We are brothers and sisters in Christ, and that's what really matters.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 15:9-11 ASV  Even as the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you: abide ye in my love.  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.  These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

OK but no fair getting mad at me.....or i will cry :'(

 

Bronze you posted you believe the scriptures literaly. So i posted those verses and ask. Literaly speaking what did Jesus mean when He said  "this generation"  My point is i believe literaly He meant just what He said .  That generation met a horiable death in 70 ad. Just as Judas was held accountable for his actions in the murder of Christ the priests were also. Dont go off in  a fit i know He laid down His life but there is the physical actions also.

What did Jesus mean when He said..

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The wording here does not allow for a span of time more then an hour.  

 Why is it thousand means thousand  but hour does not mean hour.

Why does shorty not mean shortly nor at hand mean at hand Bronze the grammar of those verses doesn't work with your therory.

Our therories  should fit into scripture not the scripture fit our theroies... Those Words (John5;28)of Christ are often left aside when we talk of resurrection. When we talk of resurrection talk of rapture talk will happen SHORTLY  ;D !


If Christ is to rule for a thousand years from the temple on the mount remember there will be no mount for the temple to be on. And the water gcoming from the split of the mount is 'living water' remember the story of the woman at the well and the talk of living water...

I must stop i do not put thoughts together well but i do believe you have an idea of my thoughts... Your thories are not new to me i am almost 60 and grew up believing them...I have watched them evolve..

I removed this topic from my notifiction list but had to peek :-[ i flounder in how to put things on paper and how to talk but i love the subject .......

Reba,

Hour does mean hour but what hour is being spoken of? An hour now or an hour a thousand years from now? It is the same as:

Mat 24:42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

12 o'clock midnight, 12 o'clock noon or some hour in between we do not know.

The term "at hand" means the time is approaching.

Luk 21:30  When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

But again we don't know an exact timeframe. In the verses above it is given that it will be some time after the signs given in Luke 21: 24-28.


As for the word shortly we do not have a specific time frame. Lets look closer at the Greek meanings that you gave for the word and prepositions shortly. The manner that we use shortly today is not the manner that it was used.

"G1722 en A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state)".

What is this fixed timeframe?

"and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537);"

It is a timeframe that is somewhere in the middle between G1519 and G1537.

"G1519 eis A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - "

This is usually meaning a time already past up to a time already reached.

"G1537 ek  ex A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

Note here, a timeframe that is "often of completion".

This is telling us that "shortly" means somewhere between a beginning timeframe and a completion timeframe. Again I ask what is this timeframe being spoken of? When is the beginning of it and when is the completion of it? If we answer these questions then we might be able to get a ballpark figure of time for the word "shortly".

In the book of Revelations "shortly" and "the time is at hand" means a timeframe when we see the things that are mentioned there starting to take place.

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

THe use of the word hour in the above puts the resurection of 'good' and 'evil' in the same time frame. it also doesnt leave room for a number of resurrections.

The use of the word hour here is not different then Mat 24 :42  how many resurections is in said hour  or how many comings are in the hour?

Summer follows spring quick quickly.

The word shortly means the whole of what i posted not just the parts we  may want to see. it plainly says quickly shortly in haste speedly. The distcruction was coming and  God  warrined the churches via Johns letters.

From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste: - + quickly, + shortly, + speedily



So the end of the world has always been at hand. Our bodily death is at hand. this is a stretch of the meaning of at hand.


Joh 2:13  And2532 the3588 Jews'2453 passover3957 was2258 at hand,1451 and2532 Jesus2424 went up305 to1519 Jerusalem,2414


yup  it was 2000+ years  untill that Passover


And he said, Go into the city to such a man,and say unto him,The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

again was it 2000+ plus years to 'His time'
 

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;  

Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.  

These verses correspond to the judgment spoken of in Rev 20:11

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,  

These are not Rapture verses, because the "living" are not mentioned, only the dead.

Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.  

Here are the verses from Revelation which correspond to the John 5:29 -29


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.  

 The bible clearly says there will be two resurrections, but this terminology is a bit misleading.
 There is the resurrection of the "just", and the second resurrection, which is the one described in the Revelation verses above.
 However, the Scriptures establish the fact that the resurrection of the righteous will occur in stages.

The Bible presents the resurrection of Jesus as the "first fruits" of the resurrection of the righteous. The gathering of the Church Age saints, living and dead, at the appearing of the Lord (the Rapture) is thus the general harvest stage of the resurrection of the righteous (John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). Following this, those converted during the final seven-year tribulation who are beheaded are also resurrected. Finally, the Old Testament Saints are resurrected along with all the unsaved dead at His second coming as described in Revelation 20:13-15. This is corroborated in Daniel 12:1-2

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.  

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Please allow me to present a scenario, which I hope will help me explain myself better in regards to "shortly"

 Let's say God gave you the ability to see certain cataclysmic events, which would occur in 2000 years from now. That's a long time for certain. Jesus would tell you "these things I'm going to show you will happen in 2000 years.

 Now let's say Jesus took you in spirit ahead in future 2000 years. To a point "shortly" before the cataclysmic events were about to occur. From that perspective, Jesus would say "look at these things, and write down everything you see, because I'm about to show you (from this point in time) what will shortly occur"

 This is exactly what happened to John my sister. He was seeing things as they actually were occurring. So Jesus was giving John a time frame from the point from which John first appeared in that future point in time. Jesus told John that in a short time from that exact moment in the future, certain horrendous events would "shortly" occur.

 I keep repeating several literal events from Revelation, which have most certainly not occurred up to date, and most assuredly could not have occurred in 70 A.D.

 All the wars, and natural disasters, the plagues, and famines, the fact that 1/3 of man and 1/3 of ocean life are wiped out with 1/3 of the sea becoming red with blood.

 I'm not repeating these things to be a goofball. I'm repeating it so that we might realize that these are "future" events which have not occurred as of yet.

 Jesus told us what to look for so we could know when the time was "at hand" Not so we would know the exact hour, day, or year. He did tell us to be ready, especially when "all" the signs were occurring at the same time. The time is here.

 God Bless all my friends here at C.U.! :D

I must say it is encouraging to read the respectful way that folks involved in this conversation are treating one another. Regardless of the view the Love of Christ is certainly being exemplified, and that alone is a pleasure all too rare whn brethren disagree even on issues of secondary importance.

And it is nice to meet you as well Reba. In reading your posts I believe you and I have much agreement in this area. I believe 70 ad was pivotal. The things that happened inside Jersusalem during the siege were horrific and, I believe, the fullfilling of Matthew 24.

I believe when Jesus said "this generation" those to whom He was speaking expected that His meaning was to them - that generation.  It certainly seems to read that way to me. Otherwise, in my opinion, we have to interject explanations that do not appear present in the text.

I covered in my previous post what I believe about Rev.20 and 21. I understand what Bronzesnake is saying, and I appreciate brother your godly attitude in presenting it. I personally don't see the 2000 year jump, but then as I said I see these scriptures in Revelation as Spirtual representations of spiritual truth, while you believe them to be literal. That's ok -I know I'm in the minority. :)

For example the Book of Life - a literal physical book, or descriptive of our position in the New Covenant? I believe it is descriptive. Jesus is the Life and if we believe in Him we are resurrected from our deadness in sin into the New life that He has purchased.

If I read things in the context of "this generation" being the one to whom Jesus spoke then, in my understanding, it gives to many scriptures a covenant context.

2 Peter 3:1-4 "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

In the last days of the Old Covenant there were scoffers against those who accepted Christ as Lord. Israel was looking for a super David to kick Rome out, so if He was the Christ where was the promise of His coming? All things continued, and a literal kingdom wasn't established. They did not accept Jesus, and Peter, Paul, and the others spent a good deal of time on these who did not understand the gospel.

2 Peter 3:5-7 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Willfully ignorant. Not accepting what was already in their scriptures as precursor for Their time.  The earth and sky remained yet a "world", Noah's world, had already been destroyed. That is what the Bible says -not me. A "heavens and the earth", another world, a covenant, was about to be destroyed being reserved unto fire.

2 Peter 3:8-9 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

God's timing can be whatever God wants it to be. Yet when God is specific -this generation -I think we can safely be so too. In context Peter is telling those enduring the scoffing, questioning the reality of Jesus was because to their natural eyes nothing had changed, not to worry.  They were certainly anticipating what Jesus had said -this generation - but the period in which they were enduring the scoffing was Gods mercy. The Word was being preached. Israel was hearing and being judged.

2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

The DAY of the Lord, a day of judgement. And it came as Jesus said, and the elements of that world, that covenant, were destroyed. The templed was left without one stone upon another.

2 Peter 3:11-12 "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

Now I have often found this part interesting. Peter says that their conversation and conduct could hasten the coming of that day. How? Because the gospel was being preached, and the more it was preached, the more the old covenant was exposed for what it was -finished! And the more Israel was judged as they rejected the Messiah who was the fulfillment of all that their covenant looked to. And before that generation passed away the physical aspects of that covenant suffered the fate that the covenant itself experienced on crucifixion day - they were dissolved.

2 Peter 3:13-14 "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."

Amen - We are not looking backward to covenant of animal sacrifices, and other works -but ever forward into this New Covenant of Life. Because of this be found of Him in peace. Trust in Him.

2 Peter 3:15-16 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

On the surface I think you have to wonder when did Paul ever speak of these things? He certainly did not use a lot of the terminology -heavens melting with a fervent heat and so forth, but then when you understand that Peter is talking about the covenants, why that is exactly what Paul talked about! Romans, Galatians, and not least of all 2 Cor 3 - the New Covenant! Old things are passed away and behold all things are made new!

Just some thoughts for consideration. Offered not so much to persuade, to offer a biblical basis for this point of view.

My compliments again on the kind spirit exhibited.

In His Grace...

Hello psalmistsinger. I appreciate your point of view and the friendly way you express it also my friend.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.  

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.  

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?  

 This verse holds an important key. The disciples knew that Jesus would be leaving them. They also knew that His return would correspond to the "end of the world" Do you believe Jesus died in 33 A.D. then returned in 70 A.D.? Was that the "end of the world"?

 Jesus went on to tell the disciples exactly what future generations should look for, to know when He would return.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.  

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.  

 This did not happen by 70 A.D.



Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.  

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 Certainly there were wars in 70 A.D., but Jesus paints a very dire picture here which does not fit in with 70 A.D. Look at the history books, and you will not find such a scenario as what Jesus described any where near 70 A.D.

Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.  


Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.  

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.  

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

 This does not fit in with 70 A.D. either.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.  

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  

 Surely you must concede that the Gospel was not preached throughout the world by 70 A.D.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  

 satan has not appeared standing in the Holy Place as of yet. he surely wasn't there in 70 A.D.



Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

 The Jews, in  70 A.D. did not flee into the mountains. They were physically booted out of Israel and sent to the four corners of the earth.



Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

 The above four verses describe an escape scenario. This did not happen in 70 A.D.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  

 As bad as it obviously was in 70 A.D. you would be hard pressed to deny things have gotten much, much worse. Therefore this verse was not in relation to 70 A.D. but rather to a future time when "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."  

to continue...

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.  

 There is no possible way that every human being on earth could have been wiped out in 70 A.D.


 
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.  

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.  

There is no account of another "Christ" performing wonders and miracles, which would cause even the "elect" to be fooled in 70 A.D.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.  

Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.  

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  

 Jesus drives the point home. When He returns the entire Universe will light up. There will be no doubt that it is Him. This did not happen in 70 A.D.



Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.  

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  

 This also did not happen in 70 A.D. I really would have to struggle and stretch in order to pull a "spiritual" message from such literal descriptions as these in Mat 24.



Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  

 Jesus Himself says He will return only "after" all these terrible events occur.



Now Jesus gives a very specific "end times " sign...

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:  

 The "fig tree" is Israel. Jesus is telling us that when the Jews return to Israel, which did not happen until 1948, and they gained control of the Holy City of Jerusalem in 1967, we would know the end is upon us.

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.

 Here again, Jesus says that when we see "all" these things - not some of them, but "all" of them, we will know the end is near.  If I was to stretch, and take all these literal terms and descriptions as spiritual - I would be confused as to what "the end" was a reference of. Surely not an end of evil, there's plenty of that going around. Surely not an end of persecution of the Jews - heck, there's even Christians who hate the Jews, let alone the radical Islamists, and others.


Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.  

 It is clear, that when taken within the context of these verses, the term "this generation" is in reference to the generation, which witnesses "all" these prophesies. These prophecies did not happen in 70 A.D. - they are happening now. We are "this generation"

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.  

 This confirm that Jesus wants us to know these things are "literal"


Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 This verse makes absolutely no sense whatsoever if we take it spiritually. Jesus nails it down to a specific day and hour (which only God knows) so if this is spiritual, how will you know when "it?" happens? It doesn't add up my friend. This is a literal message. These events will literally occur at a specific day and hour, which only the Father knows. Read the next verse - Jesus compares these Mat 24 verses to the literal Old Testament flood story.


Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  

 As surely as the flood occurred, so will the end times prophecies occur literally.


Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  

 Jesus is confirming the literal warnings from Mat 24 - People in Noah's time did not take the warnings literal, just as some of us do not take the Mat 24 warnings literal.


Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 This verse is self-explanatory my friend. Jesus is doing everything He can to make us understand that these warnings are real, literal future events. The people in Noah's time were warned also, but refused to believe it. Look what happened to them.



Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.  

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.  

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.  


 
 Good point.  It was prophesied that He would be born of a virgin - that literally happened. It was prophesied that He would be born in Bethlehem - that literally happened. It was prophesied that He would be preceded by a messenger - that literally happened. It was prophesied that Jesus would come and He would be rejected by His own - that literally happened.
It was prophesied that He would be falsely accused and nailed through His hands and feet - that literally happened

A literal Kingdom was established. Jesus came to collect subjects for His Kingdom - that's us! - That literally happened.

Just as all the Old Testament prophecies were literal and literally happened - so are the New Testament prophecies literal, and, are and, will continue to literally happen.

Rom 1:7-8

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
KJV

 1 John 2:18

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV

1 John 4:3

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
KJV




History tell us a very clearly of the tribulation those in Jersualem fell under. Some folks think it fits 70 AD some dont. World history tells us of the tribulation, violence etc. Rome put on the christians.Surly you have read Josephes. ( sp sorry )




Rom 10:15-18

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.KJV







Some say the christians of that time, that heeded the Words of the Lord fled...


I do wonder if those at the time of Noah thought their trublition was bad.... only 8 people left alive on earth....one can only swim for so long....

 Hello Reba.
How are things going my sister?

 I'm just going to make a few (brief?) points.

 
 The Gospel could not have reached the entire world at that point. The American continent was not even known back then. At the time these verses were written, the Gospel had been spoken throughout the "known" world. God had much bigger plans.

My quote...

 Jesus went on to tell the disciples exactly what future generations should look for, to know when He would return.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.  

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.  

This did not happen by 70 A.D.

 I still assert this did not happen in 70A.D.
Here's why...

These verses don't describe false Christs - they describe unbelievers.

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.  

There were plenty of unbelievers back then, but nowhere in the Gospels is there even a single example or description of anyone claiming to be Christ, except for Jesus.

My quote...

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

 Yes, Rome was a conquering nation, but Jesus says "the end is not yet" Isn't that curious? He then goes on to describe additional prophecies which must occur before the "end times"

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

This verse describes many nations and kingdoms wageing war against other nations and kingdoms. 2,000 years ago, Rome was in solid control of the known world. There was not all these other nations and kingdoms wageing war. Add to that the famines and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Yes, I have read Flavious Josephus, and I can't find these conditions in his writings.

Certainly there were wars in 70 A.D., but Jesus paints a very dire picture here which does not fit in with 70 A.D. Look at the history books, and you will not find such a scenario as what Jesus described any where near 70 A.D.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

When is the "end" spoken of in this verse?

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  

First of all, notice how God says the Gospel shall be preached in all the world? then He adds for a witness unto "all nations"
"then the end shall come"

What ended in 70A.D.? Nothing got better after 70A.D., in fact, it has gotten much, much worse. We are actually capable of destroying the entire planet today. Nothing ended in 70A.D. but it is now very close to "the end" All the prophetic signs spoken of by Jesus have come together in our generation - not in 70A.D.




The scriptures tell us that all the Jews were tossed out and sent to the four corners of the earth. None got away from Titus and his armies in 70A.D.



The scriptures we are discussing were written 2,000 years after the flood. So apparantly, it is going to be worse than even the flood, as the following verse corroborates...

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  

Thanks for having such great patience with me Reeba.

John

Brothers and Sisters,

I have tried to follow along and do some study on preterism. I have some questions that I would really like to see discussed. Many portions of Scripture are tied together, and there are some very descriptive events.

So, please help me out some. With preterism:

Is there a Rapture of the Church which is the Body of Christ? If so, has it already happened?

The Tribulation Period is ended with the Second Coming of Christ, so has the Second Coming of Christ already happened, or are we still in the Tribulation Period?

The Second Coming of Christ also involves the locking away of the devil. Do preterists believe this is literal and has happened?

The Tribulation Period is immediately followed by the 1,000 year earthly rule and reign of Jesus Christ from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. Do preterists believe this has already happened or will happen?

Speaking of the Second Coming of Christ, do preterists believe the events are literal? Is the pouring out of God's Wrath on the earth literal from a preterist perspective? If so, has this already happened? 70 A.D. would have been a band-aid event compared to the descriptions I read in the Bible about the Tribulation Period.  In fact, 70 A.D. was a band-aid event compared to World War II, and World War II is a band-aid event in comparison to the descriptions of end of this age events in the Bible.

I'm curious what preterists believe about Revelation. The Tribulation Period is an end of this age event, yet Revelation was written more than 20 years after 70 A.D. So, how could this be explained from a preterist perspective?

Are all of the portions of Scripture that deal with the temple in the time of the Tribulation Period to be deemed non-literal from a preterist perspective? If not, has there been a time when the anti-Christ ruled over the earth from the Temple in Jerusalem? And, has there been a time when JESUS CHRIST ruled over the earth from the Temple in Jerusalem? What about the Two Witnesses?

In short, I'm still trying to study preterism. From what I see so far, the age of Grace would also have ended if 70 A.D. was the Tribulation Period. If so, the other end of age events would have also happened. It's an absolute certainty that we aren't living in a time where the devil is locked up, so are all of the descriptions of God dealing with the devil and evil non-literal from a preterist perspective?

From a preterist perspective, what Biblical age are we living in? Keep in mind that it couldn't be the Millennial Kingdom, even if you discount the literal 1,000 years because the devil is locked away for the Millennial Kingdom. I would also have to say that we couldn't be living in eternity because this certainly isn't Heaven or hell.

If you could address these topics, I would appreciate it and have an easier time with this study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 13:20-21 ASV  Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus, make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I believe it was certainly the end of that age (world) wherein the people of Israel, or anyone else, could believe look to the temple -and the old covenant -as a way to God. As long as the temple stood scoffers could proclaim that Jesus wasn't the Way to God, because God dwelt in the temple. In 70 A.D. God allowed to be destroyed physically what had in reality been accomplished at Calvary. Jesus said He was the temple. The empty one was now desolate.

An example of a world passing away, but the earth remaining, can found in 2 Peter 2:4-5,

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"

and 2 Peter 3:6-7, with verse 7, I believe, making reference to the coming end of the temple that stood at the time of it's writing.

"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."


When I read this passage it appears to me that Jesus is answering the question without moving from generation to generation. He begins in verse 2 with the destruction of the temple, is asked three questions in verse 3.

1. when this will happen,
2. what is the sign of your coming , and
3 the end of the age.

In verse 34 Jesus says this generation will not pass until ALL these things have happened. I know the preveleet thinking is that differen time frames are inserte between verses 3 and 34, but the answer in verse 34, in my understanding, ties it all back to the first questions. That is ti say it appears to be to be one train of thought without other times inserted. It seems to be that we do that, but I don't see it in the passage. I am not claiming an all encompassing unfailing understanding, but just trying to explain my position.


Historicallly I believe it did, and it didn't take very long.

Scripture mentions Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8 who the people in Samaria proclaimed to tbe "the great power of God".

Josephus records that the time period after Jesus, and before 70 A.D, was filled with false prophets proclaiming themselves something. It appears to be a time period when Israel knew no shortage of such things.

In a specific example Josephus mentions Theudas who had convinced many to follow him to the Jordan river where he had promised to divide the water so they could cross. Of course that didn't happen, and his life ended with Felix having him beheaded.

Josephus also says "...these impostors and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the wilderness, and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs, that should be performed by the providence of God. And many that were prevailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly; for Felix brought them back, and then punished them."

I believe the time from the crucifixion until 70A.D was frought with wars. I believe the word for Nations can also be used for race. Josephus records in Caesarea in 59 A.D. the Jews and Syrians fought for  the city, and twenty thousand Jews were killed. At Scythopolis, over 13,000 Jews were killed. This doesn't include Roman conquests throughout the time.
Earthquakes are recorded through out the time as well. Note that Jesus did not say there would be more earthquakes than ususal, but that they would happen. One is recorded in Acts 16:26 that shook the foundations of the prison, as well as others recorded in secular history -Crete 46AD, Rome 51AD, Apamaia 53AD, Laodicea 60AD, and Campania 62AD. Josephus say of an earthquake in Judea “that the constitution of the universe was confounded for the destruction of men."  
Of earthquakes at Rome Tacitus wrote, "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down," and "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake."

Famines occurred as well. A famine recorded by  Tacitus, Suetonius, and Eusebius, and is also said to have been severe in Jerusalem. Josephus says that many people perished for want of food.  The disciples sent aid to those in Judea (Acts 11:27-29). Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. The Bible speaks of famines (Acts 11:27-29) during the reign of Claudius in 41-54 AD.

As for the seige of Jerusalem during 70 A.D - well..it becomes, as I said earlier, horrific. From Josephus, speaking of a woman called Mary daughter of Eleazar -

"Seizing her child, an infant at the breast, she cried, "My poor baby, why should I keep you alive in this world of war and famine? Even if we live till the Romans come, they will make slaves of us; and anyway, hunger will get us before slavery does; and the rebels are crueler than both. Come, be food for me, and an avenging fury to the rebels, and a tale of cold horror to the world to complete the monstrous agony of the Jews." With these words she killed her son, roasted the body, swallowed half of it, and stored the rest in a safe place. But the rebels were on her at once, smelling roasted meat, and threatening to kill her instantly if she did not produce it. She assured them she had saved them a share, and revealed the remains of her child. Seized with horror and stupefaction, they stood paralyzed at the sight. But she said, "This is my own child, and my own handiwork. Eat, for I have eaten already. Do not show yourselves weaker than a woman, or more pitiful than a mother. But if you have pious scruples, and shrink away from human sacrifice, then what I have eaten can count as your share, and I will eat what is left as well." At that they slunk away, trembling, not daring to eat, although they were reluctant to yield even this food to the mother. The whole city soon rang with the abomination. When people heard of it, they shuddered, as though they had done it themselves"


Here again it seems to be that history is filled with examples.  Of course these things happen in our modern day as well. The servant is still not greater than the Master, and we as disciples are as hated in many of our modern cultures as those to Whom Jesus specifically spoke to at the time. And I don't think the world has known a shortage of false prohets for 2000 years, including the time between the crucifixion and 70 A.D.  Paul addresses them often in his letters.

Galatians 1: 6-8 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

Galatians 2:3-5 "But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you"

Philippians 3:18-19 "For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."

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I think it depends on how we define "all nations", and I promise I'm not trying to play word games here :)
What I mean is that we often interpret "all nations" to mean the entire globe, but I don't believe the Apostles necessarily interpret it that way. In one sense it could be said that Luke believed it happend with Peter's first gospel message at Pentecost, for he writes-

Acts 2:5 "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven."

Certainly by the time of the writing of Colossians Paul believed that every creature under heaven had heard the gospel.

Col 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

And again in Romans

Rom 16:26   "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

I believe the Apostles preached through out every known nation, as Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24, and fulfilled what was spoken before the destruction of the temple. I believe the destruction of the temple is so pivotal because it showed the the total departure of God from the Old Covenant, as well as established a further proof that Jesus was Who He said He for those who knew that He had foretold it.

Imagine being a Jew in those days and being told that God didn't dwell in the temple, but in His Son who came to establish a New Covenant, and that by believing in His Son He would dwell in you! They did not believe the temple could be destroyed, and surely anyone who had said such a thing had to be a false prophet. Now imagine how you would view everything else this Man had said when prophecy after prophecy was coming true! It was said that the Apostles had turned the worls upside down with their preaching of Jesus!

Indeed, it had been.


I don't believe the abomination of desolation is Satan. I know many do, and I respect their opinion, but when I read it I believe I would be adding Satan, or antichrist as some say, to the text since it is not there. The text here, and even more readily apparent in the parallel passage in  Mark 13, refer to the abomination as an "it" and not a person.

Josephus tell us that at the destruction of the temple sacrifices were being made to idols upon theruins of the temple.
 
"The Romans planted their eagles on the shapeless ruins, over against the eastern gate, offered their sacrifices to them, and proclaimed Titus Imperator with the greatest acclamations of Joy."


I agree that is what happened to those Jews who did not believe Jesus. I believe many Jewish Christians escaped the city because they heeded Jesus' warning.


I believe it did. I believe there were those who read the signs, saw the Roman army, and got out of there.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 


I know there are always, sadly, inhumane things being to done to people by others, but at the same time -I believe - we can't discount what happened 70A.D. Along with with the recounting of Mary daughter of Eleazar we have this from Josephus -

"And as for those that are already dead in the war, it is reasonable we should esteem them blessed, for they are dead in defending, and not in betraying their liberty; but as to the multitude of those that are now under the Romans, who would not pity their condition? and who would not make haste to die, before he would suffer the same miseries with them? Some of them have been put upon the rack, and tortured with fire and whippings, and so died. Some have been half devoured by wild beasts, and yet have been reserved alive to be devoured by them a second time, in order to afford laughter and sport to our enemies; and such of those as are alive still are to be looked on as the most miserable, who, being so desirous of death, could not come at it. And where is now that great city, the metropolis of the Jewish nation, which vas fortified by so many walls round about, which had so many fortresses and large towers to defend it, which could hardly contain the instruments prepared for the war, and which had so many ten thousands of men to fight for it? Where is this city that was believed to have God himself inhabiting therein? It is now demolished to the very foundations, and hath nothing but that monument of it preserved, I mean the camp of those that hath destroyed it, which still dwells upon its ruins; some unfortunate old men also lie upon the ashes of the temple, and a few women are there preserved alive by the enemy, for our bitter shame and reproach. Now who is there that revolves these things in his mind, and yet is able to bear the sight of the sun, though he might live out of danger? Who is there so much his country's enemy, or so unmanly, and so desirous of living, as not to repent that he is still alive? And I cannot but wish that we had all died before we had seen that holy city demolished by the hands of our enemies, or the foundations of our holy temple dug up after so profane a manner. "

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I believe the subject is the destruction of the temple in Jersusalem. When it fell the people were so hungry they were eating shoes and belts. Had it gone longer I believe all would've died.


I don't think it was possible to fool the elect, but others were fooled. Theudas is an example.


I believe what Jesus said happened, but when we say the universe will light up I believe we are adding meaning that is not present. That is not a cut or anything,  but just expressing my belief. I believe what happened was the great and terrible day of the Lord as  He came in judgement against the City that had rejected Him. I belive He established  for all to see that the temple, the Old Covenant, was not the wat to God.

There is an example of this in the Old Testament as well.

Isaiah 19:1 "The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it."

In this passage from Isaiah it is being prophesied that the Egyptians would be invaded by Assyria. Verse 1 above says the LORD shall come into Egypt, yet we understand that He did so by His judgment at the hands of Assyria.


I think the way we understand some things has much to do with the prism through which we read. Some read through a more "present to future prism", and some with a more "historical to present prism" I know that description does neither one of us justice, but I am only trying to establish history does provide events that, in my view, are evident without too much struggling.

Titus carried Roman Eagles statues into the temple area, and offered sacrifices to false god's. I believe God gave two lights  -the Sun ( the New Covenant) and the Moon (the Old Covenant), and the Sun was darkend for a time -the dark ages  - and the Moon has no light to give in the light of the Sun. That is to say we see by the New Covenant and not the Old. In 70A.D. the satrs fell from heaven and the powers of the heavens were shaken -the Jewish priesthood was destryed with the temple.


Again, I believe He came in judgement as explained above.


I believe Jesus kept the same subject matter throughout the passage. The end of the temple, the physical closing out of the Old Covenant that had in reality happened at Calvary, for all to see. I believe the fig tree is an allegory for whatching the signs. Many insert 1948 there, but again -in my opinion -  it has to be inserted. And I believe all these signs came to pass as I have, all too ininadequately I'm sure, tried to explain.


With all kindness and respect, I just disagree. I believe history demonstrates the prophecies did happen within the generation to whom He said "this generation shall not pass". Believe my friend, I do not expect to be agreed with. I'm just trying to explain the position.

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I believe these things did literally happen, but I also believe they have spirtual significance. The Sun and Moon for example. I belive it did really happen, but I believe the Sun and Moon has references to the covenants and not the orbs in the sky. The Old Covenant passed away, ant the earthly furnishings of the temple with it.



I think I may be making myself misunderstood as to "Spirtual" and "Literal". I think it depends upon the context. My earlier point had been that I believe Revelation to be Spiritual book about Spirtual things. I do not mean that things do have have their literal counterpart, but I believe they must be understood spiritualy. The "Sea" in Rev 21 for example has it counterpart in 1Kings as the laver, which was called a Sea, for outer washings, but it must be spitually understood. When Jesus says, speaking of the temple, not one stone shall be left upon another it is eveident that is what will happen. When He say we must eat His flesh and drin His blood we understand He does not mean literally.

He told His discilple what the signs of the times would be. I believe it happened as He said.


I believe the New testamant is filled with Spiritual pictures of literal truths. I believe what Jesus said in Matthew 24 did happen, and I think if we skip 2000 years of history we may miss some things.  I believe the New Testament is a Spiritual Covenant that must be understood Spiritually.

I appreciate the discourse, and my goals have not been to persuade anyone out of their belief,  just trying to explain mine. I appreciate the good fellowship that is evident. When all is said and done I believe, and I know we agree, how we loved Him and one another is what counts.

In His Grace...

Hello my friend. Great debate! Thank you. :D

Revelation 8

6And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them.

7The first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

When did this happen?



8The second angel sounded, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea; and a third of the sea became blood,

When did this happen?



9and a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed.

When did this happen?



10The third angel sounded, and a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of waters.

When did this happen?



11The name of the star is called Wormwood; and a third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.

When did this happen?



12The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way.

When did this happen?

Here, it is absolutely unambiguous - the sun is not a spiritual representation of the New Testament, it is literally the sun. The moon is not a spiritual representation of the Old Testament - it is literally the moon. Nowhere in the entire Bible can I find a single reference which corroborates your assertion that the sun ever represents the N.T. or the moon ever represents the O.T.


13Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"

The dire warning from an angel makes it painfully obvious that these judgments are literal and directed specifically at those who dwell on the earth. You can not insert a spiritual meaning here.


Revelation 9

The Fifth Trumpet--the Bottomless Pit

1Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him.

2He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.

If these verses are figurative, then the following, corresponding verses become ver confusing.

3Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

This verse can not be "spiritual" This is literal. See where this brings us? When we don't recognise these scriptures as literal events, we are forced to mix a "spiritual" message with the literal. This leads to an impossible scenario of having to decide (for ourselves) which is which. The men who have the seals on their foreheads are in fact the 144,000 Jews - so who are the rest who do not have the seal? Christians?


5And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

Here again, this is literal, even having a time frame.


6And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.

Were men in 70 A.D. invincible?
 

7The appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.

8They had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions.

9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle.

10They have tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to hurt men for five months.

Could this description be John's way of describing seeing men in the cockpits of attack helecopters?


11They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

12The first woe is past; behold, two woes are still coming after these things.


The Sixth Trumpet--Army from the East

13Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14one saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

15And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind.

Did a third of "mankind" die in 70 A.D.?

16The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.

No army on earth numbered two hundred million in 70 A.D.
In fact, no army on earth numbered tha large, until now! China has a standing army of over two hundread million. What a coincidence - China is in the East

 
17And this is how I saw in the vision the horses and those who sat on them: the riders had breastplates the color of fire and of hyacinth and of brimstone; and the heads of the horses are like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceed fire and smoke and brimstone.

Could John be describing our modern tanks?


18A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths.

 19For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm.

20The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;

21and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.

So, when did all these things occur in 70 A.D.?

In order to keep this post relatively short, I'll post the major highlights, and simply ask you to consider if, and when such things occurred in 70 A.D.


The 7 Seals (Revelation 6:1 - 8:1)

- the white horse (Antichrist)

- the red horse (war)

- the black horse (famine)

- the pale horse (death)

- souls under the altar (Tribulation martyrs)

- great earthquake

- silence in Heaven


The 7 Trumpets (Revelation 8:2 - 11:19)

- hail and fire mixed with blood

- mountain thrown into the sea

- the star, Wormwood

- a third of the sun, moon & stars struck

- plague of locusts

- release of the 4 angels

- judgments & rewards


The 7 Bowls (Revelation 15 - 16)

- ugly & painful sores

- the sea turns to blood

- rivers & springs turn to blood

- sun scorches people

- darkness

- Euphrates River dried up

- tremendous earthquake


No one has been able to answer exactly when Russia - Magog (yes, I have solid proof that Magao is Russia) the Arab nations and the "Kings of the East (China, Japan etc) gathered together and launched the most devestating attack in history. Please tell me when this happened, because it's not found in any history book I've ever read, and I've read lots .

No one has been able to tell me when these invading armies were completely wiped out. There were so many dead that it took the Jews seven years to bury them. Did all this happen in 70 A.D.? The only way to explain away these scriptures is to "spiritualize" them. These verses are highly detailed accounts of literal events, that much is assured.

Thank you again psalmistsinger, and Reba. It is a pleasure to discuss with this very interesting topic with you my friends.

John

Thanks Palmistsinger!.... Well said....

 Thanks Pastor and BEP - Very well said!  ;)

Just funnin! :D

Rev 6:2
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
KJV

Rev 19:11

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
KJV


 Where in scripture do you fined this; "the white horse (Antichrist)"

Forgive me for not getting up here sooner. Time just does not allow me.

Often times in the New Testament the inhabitants of the New Covenant are referred in terms of "light"

Matthew 5:14 - "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."

1 Thessalonians 5:5 - "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

Jesus came shone into the final days of the Old Covenant and it was said -

John 1:5 - "And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

The light was Christ Himself, the Mediator of a better covenant. Where did the Light shine? In the religious world of that day. The darkness that did not comprehend Him was the priesthood of the Old Covenant.
 
Works never understands Grace.

In the book of Genesis I believe along with the story of creation - and yes I believe God  created all things by the Word of His Mouth - I believe there is also a level of spiritual depth as well. God said "let there be light" on the first day, and on the fourth day - after trees and grass and fruit - He created the Sun and Moon.

Genesis 1: 16-19   "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.  And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day."

But I think Reba has struck upon a problem with many of our interpretations of Revelation  when she asks about your definition for the White Horse.

Unlike Matthew 24, which I believe to be more direct, John is writing a vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, not a revelation of the earths final days. To this symbolism is assigned meanings that fit each ones particular view of eschatology. To some the White Horse equals Antichrist, but the text doesn't say so, or the beast equals Anti Christ, but again, the text doesn't say provide this definition.

Personally I don't know that Revelation can be read in the same chronological way that Matthew 24  can be. I am not trying to get around your questions, I just don't read it that way. You, and again this is by no means a cut,  read a verse and see, possibly,  attack helicopters. I read a verse and start wondering how this ties into the Covenants, or what the early Christians were going through. I am not saying which is right - time will certainly tell - I am saying that you and I come to some rather symbolic text in Revelation with different views.
 
Because I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ will be about His Person, and His Covenant, that is what I am looking for. As I said earlier, this is not my "forte", I certainly have no lock upon biblical interpretation, particularly in the book of Revelation. I confess, however, that as I believe the New Testament is primarily about the establishment of the covenants I approach Revelation the same way.

I don't understand every symbol, and I would rather just admit that than to try to apply a definition I don't really see, or give an interpretive meaning not found in the text. When I find a corroborating scripture within the bible I am of the opinion that I should let the bible define itself , such as the Sea in Rev. 21. I believe what meaning I find in Revelation will have correlation in the rest of scripture as well. I don't belive either Revelation or the rest of scripture, without applying other definitions and ideas not found in the first century, readily teach the Rapture.

I'm sure these are not satisfactory responses, but I am trying to be as honest as I can. As always I hope it at least proves thoughtful. I truly do enjoy the reading, and I'm glad to answer what I can when I can. I'm sure we both have reached where we are over a period of time, and not over night. While I know will not agree on this particular matter I want you to know that I respect and honor you as a brother in Christ. Thank God for His unending love!

God Bless,
In His Grace....

psalmistsinger - thank you again for showing me such patients.

I must disagree with your "light" equals sun and moon asertion my friend. We do understand what God means when He describes us as "lights" to the world etc, it's not hard because the verses with which such figurative language is used, can easily be understood when taken in the context from which it is given.
For example : 1 Thessalonians 5:5 - "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

 There can be no mistake here, not unless we get foolish and completely ignore the fact that God has identified "humans" as being the light source - "Ye" are "children" of light. God puts it in context.

Look at the sun and moon verses...

Gen 15:12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

Gen 15:17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

Gen 19:23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.

Gen 28:11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put [them for] his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.

Gen 32:31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh.

Exd 16:21 And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted.

Exd 17:12 But Moses' hands [were] heavy; and they took a stone, and put [it] under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.

Exd 22:3 If the sun be risen upon him, [there shall be] blood [shed] for him; [for] he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

Exd 22:26 If thou at all take thy neighbour's raiment to pledge, thou shalt deliver it unto him by that the sun goeth down:

Lev 22:7 And when the sun is down, he shall be clean, and shall afterward eat of the holy things; because it [is] his food.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

Luk 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Psa 89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Psa 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

Psa 121:6 The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.

Psa 136:9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

Psa 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

Ecc 12:2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:

Sgs 6:10 Who [is] she [that] looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, [and] terrible as [an army] with banners?

Isa 3:18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of [their] tinkling ornaments [about their feet], and [their] cauls, and [their] round tires like the moon,

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

The rider on the white horse of rev 6 is satan. satan copies everything Jesus deos - how else could he deceive even the Jews during the first 3 1/2 years of tribulation?

Notice he is depicted with a "bow" (not a sword, as the True Jesus has in Rev 19:11) and he went out warring, and conquering, just as it is thoroughly described throughout Revelations. When Jesus returns on His white Horse, He is not holding a bow, He has a two edged sword, and He doesn't go out warring and conquering - He destroys satan and his armies with the brightness of His coming.

John


Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.  

Gen 37:9

9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
KJV

This is clearly identified as a dream, and the meaning is given.

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.  

Gen 37:10 And he told [it] to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What [is] this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?  

 The sun and the moon represented Joseph's father and mother. The eleven stars were his brothers. The meaning is given, we don't need to guess.
 Not only was the meaning given, but Joseph literally came to rule over not only his father, mother and eleven brothers, but all of Egypt as the Phaero's prime minister.

 This is a fantastic example which shows us that even when the verses "seem" to be "mythical" or "spiritual" they are explained so we don't need to come up with our own ideas, but they are prophecies of future literal events.

Take care Reba.

John

When I spoke of the Sun and Moon representing the Covenants I did not mean to imply that every mention contains this meaning, but I do believe there are allegorical instances supported by other scriputre where this applies.

When Paul says the New Jerusalem is the mother of us all we know, because he has said so, that he is speaking of the New Covenant, and not a human mother.

When Paul says-

Ephesians 5:8 - "For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light"

- we understand because of his phrasing that he is not saying we are without flesh, but we are the light of the Lord because His Life is in us.

Jesus is the Light of the world. We know this does not mean He is the sunshine outside, but being Himself God He is the Light that gives understanding of God to the world. Since Jesus has used the term "light" to describe Himself who is the mediator of the Covenant if follows , in my opinion, that when the sun is being spoken of in allegorical terms it appiles to the New Covenant.

God, after light was created in Genesis, gave two great lights -one to rule the Day, and the the other the Night. we are children of the day, children of the new covenant. The night is where darkness is, and Jesus shined into the darkness of the Old Covenant and brough them the Light -Himself! Two great lights -the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The Old ruled the darkness - before the Light of Christ shone into the world. The New Covenat now rules the Day.

When I read from Matthew 24:29 -

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"  

-  I think of the scripture that Sis. Reba quoted and, from my point of view, consider that the stars of heaven represent the children of Israel, the children of the Old Covenant, and wonder at how this New Covenant has superceded the one passed down by fleshly lineage.

I understand you're saying everything is literally what it says, but at the same time there are admonishments from the Lord such as "let him who has ears to hear, hear, and "the words that I speak are Spirit and they are Life".  

When Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again, He did not mean literally, although Nicodemus was hearing it that way. At least Jesus did not mean it literally the way that Nicodemus thought. That is to say that the Bible always means what it says, but does not always clearly say what it means unless we have our ears spiritually tuned.

Paul said -

1 Corinthians 2:14 - "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

None of that means I am giving the right interpretation, and you the wrong, to spiritual things of course, but I am trying to establish some scriptures will have meaning other than what is on the surface.

Many have applied - and this is just for example, and not a trap or anything - Satan, or the anti-christ, to the Abomination of Desolation, and the White Horse. There is no scripture that says this, but I'm sure this is done because it is believed these scriptures, taken with the way other scriptures are interpreted from a particular point of view, point in that direction. I disagree with the interpretation, but I understand these are symbolic scriptures -particularly from Revelation.

When I say the Sun and the Moon represent the Covenants in some instances where the meaning appears to me symbolic I am admittedly not doing so because there is a scripture verse that says the Sun and Moon are that, anymore than there is a scripture verse that literally proclaims most of what gets said about Revelation. I am saying this because again, in my view, other scriptures with allegorical text appear, to me, to support it.

I know this debate becomes a bit circular Bronzesnake, but if this is the biggest disagreement we ever have in life we can count ourselves blessed! I appreciate the good tone you have kept through out and feel at ease calling you brother.  God bless you my friend.

Tom - I haven't tried to avoid your questions either, and I apologize for not having responded. Although I have Preterists leanings eschatology wise, for all I've written here I don't consider myself an expert, or anything. Actually eschatology is something I normally have avoided.  

I think that not all Preterists see every exact point the same. There are differing opinions there as in anything else. All would agree I think that 70A.D. was pivotal as the fulfillment of Matthew 24, and the last gasps of an already dead from Calvary Covenant.

It is not believed that the age of Grace ended, but rather that the age of Grace, or the New Covenant, is a world without end ( Eph.3:21).

You mention Revelation being written 20 years after 70 A.D, but many believe it was written before. I think the 90 A.D date comes from a man who wrongly said Jesus was 50 at the time of the crucifixion ( I promise I'm not making this up), so obviously his reliability is questioned.  It is also believed curious that John does not mention the destruction of the temple if Revelation is written later.  

If you're still interested in what Preterist believe about eschatology I think you can probably find more detailed answers than I can give at

http://www.preteristarchive.com/

http://www.preterism.info/

Some preterist writers can be a little smug, which I don't care for, but there are some good things too. If I can answer anything I will be glad too, and honest if I cannot.

Just be patient with my slow responses :)

In His Grace....

 

Yes Bronze it was a dream, not just a dream but one to fortell the future....


And John was in the spirit....Rev 1:10

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
KJV
 the two to me are not so far apart......

 So, are you agreeing with me then?

 Joseph was given the details of a future event by God.
The vision became a literal reality.

 John was also given the details of future events by God. Why wouldn't we expect these details to become a literal reality also?

 The bible is full of prophecies which have come to pass literally. Some of us read these prophecies, and refuse to believe they are prophecies because they have not come to pass yet. The bible shows us that there were many even in the Old Testament who doubted God's prophetic warnings. It's only after these prophecies come to pass that many come to believe them. Joseph's own family scoffed at his visions - that is, until they came true. I see this same thing happening today amoung many of us Christians.

 Some of us say that the Old testament was full of literal prophecies, but the New Testament is "alagorical", "mythical" and "spiritual". Are these two different books? Are they written by different God's? Why would God make such a radical change?

 The reason some of us believe this, is because the prophecies from the Old Testament are for the most part, literal historical facts. Whereas the New Testament prophecies are for the most part, as of yet unfulfilled.
 We won't believe it until we see it.


Psalmistsinger my friend. You have not answered my question in regard to when the Russian, Arabs, and Asians attacked Israel, and when did they get destroyed so mercilessly that it took seven years to bury the dead? It seems like are avoiding this, and all of Blackeyedpeas questions.

Also, If Jesus' prophecy about the destruction of the temple, including the description that not a single stone would be left upon another, had not come to pass as of today, and was part of the "end times" prophecies in Revelation, would you "spiritualize" that prophecy?

 Would your explanation be - " the temple represents God's place in our hearts, and the destruction of it represents man's unbelief"? If not, then why would you take such a prophecy from the New Testament literally (as it certainly was) instead of "spiritually" as you do the other prophecies?
If yes, then you will admit there is a probelem here.

Take care my friends.

John

Something to think about here ......  Is it not possible that an actual event also has a spiritual meaning to it? I can see what Psalmistsinger is saying and the verses spoken of can most assuredly have a spiritual meaning yet I also see where these are events being spoken of that will actually take place.

We see this through many things that took place throughout the Bible where actual events also had a spiritual significance.

Very good point Pastor Roger.

The trouble here is that these prophecies are being taken strictly spiritually. Or, it has been suggested that most of the prophecies have already been fulfilled in 70 A.D.

I strongly disagree with both these ideas. I do believe there are lessons in each verse in the bible. However, I believe we must take His Word literally, or we can never hope to discover the correct lesson given.
For example;
Jesus clearly gave us many signs to watch for, so we would be ready for His rapture. If we spiritualize these signs and warnings, how can we ever accept the rapture - how can we ever be ready and watchful as He commanded us to?

How many people laughed at Noah, and didn't get in the ark?
How many laughed at Moses, and suffered the wrath of God in Egypt?
How many laughed at Lot and died in a Holy inferno in Soddom & Gommorah?

 Those people refused to take God's warnings literally.
God never forces anyone to do His will. He didn't force anyone into the ark - they chose freely to saty away from it.
The same thing will happen to those who refuse to take the signs and warnings of Jesus about the rapture. God will only take those who chose to believ Him and are waiting, and watching with full oil lamps.

 It is exactly this reason why I am so stubborn in debating this subject. I don't want any of my friends to miss the ship home. It breaks God's heart, and any loving Christian to even consider that. So I will continue to post chapter and verse. My only challenge is that I have to learn to be careful not to get agressive about it. I am learning! :D

I agree completely. If we close our eyes to all that God wants us to see then we are missing out on half of the message. That half is just as important as the other half. We need the whole to fully understand the message of God and what He expects of us.

Personally I am a a believer of the post-tribulation. I will not agrue my points here for that belief and the only other thing I will add to that is we must be prepared to stand up for God no matter what we may need to face in the future, to endure to the end.

We cannot be prepared to that "enduring" if we do not take this prophecy as being a literal future event. We cannot wish these things away simply by saying they are not talking about a future event when there is so much in these verses that has not yet taken place.


Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Mar 13:24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Act 2:19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


When we compare all these verses we can see that the sun and moon are not just being used spiritually speaking but is telling us of an actual event. An event that we know has not yet taken place because Jesus has not yet returned. If he had we would not being seeing so much evil in this world today.

 

" So, are you agreeing with me then?"
  :) nice try Bronze  sheesh  :)


Did the moon literally bowdown before Josheph?

Nor did it take 2000+ years to happen.

I dont know how to put this into words so here is my list again...


The Cross of Christ is the center of all history ( not meaning years) but like  the turning point.

Many things changed because of His life and death.

The end of the age of blood sacrifice the end of the way of life for the Jews.

Bringing on the New Covenant  the NT speaks of.  
 
I see 70 AD as the spirital and physical end to the old system, Most here dont...


  His Wod is written so well as to debated for zillions of years what a Book!