ChristiansUnite Forums

Hello everyone, my name is Michael Hollner, a minister in Jacksonville, Fl. I just finished my book on the Rapture of the Church and the Bride of Christ. Before I send it to publishers, I should like to sharpen my sword a bit, and answer any questions regarding the timing of the Rapture. I want to give this book the acid test, the Word of God, and to satisfy any doubts that the Rapture will occur in the middle of the 7 year tribulation period.

We believe if it was important enough for the Apotle Paul to tell the Thessalonians about the timing, so do we.

With all due respect and humility, I honestly do challenge anyone to come up wih even one verse of scripture for a pre-tribultion Rature. After 20 years of research, we have concluded a mid-tribulation Rapture to be a "more sure word of prophecy."

My book is available for FREE viewing, even before it gets published, and any lettes of recommendation will be printed in the book, with your name and Church you attend.. Just email me at kjvbiblejax@aol.com, and I'll send you a free copy to critique. If you approve of the book, and send a nice letter of recommendaton, your letter, along with your name and Church will be in the forward of the book which is yet to be added.

If anyone has any questions regarding this great topic, please ask your questions, and I will respond. Let's do it all in a good spirit and be good Christians here.

I'll start it off with Acts 3:19-21 KJV. Jesus cannot come back to earth UNTIL the end-time Restoration takes place through God's two end-time prophets of Rev 11:3-13 and Elijah must also first come.

Yours in Christ,

Michael Hollner

WRONG!!!! Your teachings are false. :'(

I've send you an email prophecyjax1

Hi prophecyjax1,

What is your opinion on the revealing of the antichrist? Will he be reveal before the first half of the tribulation or at mid point?

Pilgrim

 Seven verses that clearly indicate we shall be saved from the wrath of God: Rom 1:18, Rom 5:9, Rom 13:4, Eph 5:6, Col 3:6, 1Th 1:10, 1Th 5:9.

Jesus makes several prophesies of what it will be like before He returns. Some of these are completely at odds with the  catastrophes of the trumpets. He says is will be like the days of Noah, folks eating and drinking and they know nothing until the flood came, He says that as such an hour as you <B>think not</B> He will come. Now I ask you, how can the Church be experiencing this wrath from God and still not know that He is coming?

<B>The last trump.</B> 1 Cor. 15:52. Here is a portion of Adam Clark’s commentary:
<I>
…we must go to the Jewish writers to know what is intended. On this subject, the rabbins use the very same expression. Thus Rabbi Akiba: “How shall the holy blessed God raise the dead? We are taught that God has a trumpet a thousand ells long, according to the ell of God: this trumpet he shall blow, so that the sound of it shall extend from one extremity of the earth to the other. At the first blast the earth shall be shaken; at the second, the dust shall be separated; at the third, the bones shall be gathered together; at the fourth, the members shall wax warm; at the fifth, the heads shall be covered with skin; at the sixth, the souls shall be rejoined to their bodies; at the seventh, all shall revive and stand clothed.” See Wetstein. This tradition shows us what we are to understand by the last trump of the apostle; it is the seventh of Rab. Akiba, when the dead shall be all raised, and, being clothed upon with their eternal vehicles, they shall be ready to appear before the judgment seat of God.</I>

In other words, not one of the seven in Revelation. This does not conclusively prove that the last trump of Cor 15:52 is not the same trump as Rev. 10:7 but it does show there is reason to be cautious in jumping to a conclusion that it is.

There are many other reasons to think the rapture will be pre-trip. A would lile to read your book but I am pretty sure you are wrong.

Art

Have you changed your stance A4C?

I reply to Old-Timr's comments and Plgrim,

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

To this we say Amen! God surly has not appointed us to wrath, and does promise us deliverance from it. The simple truth of the matter is, in which many fail to recognize, is that God’s wrath does not even begin until the last 3½ years of the tribulation! The first 3½ years are God’s judgments and the last 3½ years will be His wrath. He only promises us deliverance from the second half. So where is the Church before God’s wrath? It’s in the first 3½ years of God’s judgments. Thankfully we are delivered from His wrath and will not have to endure the latter part of the tribulation, for we will have been taken away by this time. This verse does annul a post-tribulation theory, for some do believe we will endure the entire seven-year tribulation. But thank God we will be delivered from His wrath, so assuredly we can “comfort one another with these words” (I Thessalonians 4:18).

Pilgrim---Te Antichrist is rvelaed in the "midst" or middle of the seven year trib period. Read Daniel 9:27 and II Thess 2:4.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul says not to let anyone deceive you or tell you otherwise, because the Rapture cannot take place until there is a falling away first, AND, the man of sin be revealed. The keyword here is REVEALED! Revealed means “to make known,” or to “unveil;” “to make known something previously concealed or secret.” Scripture teaches us that the first 3½ years of the tribulation the Antichrist’s true identity will be hidden and kept unveiled. Although many believers will discern him, and know who he is, the prophetic unveiling, will not occur until the middle of the seven-year period. In the “midst” or the middle of the seven-year tribulation, the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel and show his true colors. This is when he is revealed. The Rapture cannot take place until this unveiling takes place, as Paul clarifies. To say the Antichrist is revealed, or unveiled at the beginning of the seven-year period, is not according to the Biblical unveiling as Paul continues to say.

A final note about the Last Trump.

Are you ready for the final revelation of the timing of the Rapture? Well, it’s so simple and revealed in scripture, that it does not take a rocket scientist to accept this simple truth. The Apostle Paul tells us in scripture, that the Rapture will occur, “at the last trump.”

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This almost seems too simple, and it is! The Rapture will occur “at the last trump,” which is the last trumpet out of the seven, in Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15. Now I’ve heard some ask the question, how do we know this last trumpet, is the last trumpet of Revelation chapter 11? We will explain and show exactly from scripture what Paul was referring to by the “last trump.” The word “last” is obviously the last in sequence. If you have 7 people in a straight line, and ask the last person to come forward, which one of the seven will it be? Of coarse the 7th person in line will come forward. Just as there are seven trumpets in the book of Revelation, the last trump, will be the 7th. This is the only sequence of trumpets in the entire Bible, so as not to confuse any other trumpets. Some have even said that this “last trump,” could not be the same trumpet in Revelation that Paul is referring to, because, quote, “That is not Paul’s last trump, because that’s an angelic trump, not the trump of God.” Whether God Himself blows the trumpet, or an Angel, it’s still the “last trump.” That’s reasoning, rather than Biblical interpretation, using precept upon precept. The sequence of trumpets starts in revelation 8:7 and concludes in Revelation 11:15. Just because it’s so simple to understand and so plainly laid out by Paul, does not mean it’s not a reality, or a fact.

Some mistake the last trump to be the same trumpet blown at the actually second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:31. But if this were the case, we would have already been raptured, because Matthew 24:29-31 is clearly referring to the literal second coming of Christ WITH HIS SAINTS, not for them.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This trump of God, is the last trump of I Corinthians 15:52, and not to be confused with the “great sound of a trumpet” in Matthew 24:29-31, when Jesus comes back to earth near the time of Armageddon. The “last trump” will sound 3½ years prior to the “great sound of a trumpet” when Jesus comes back with His saints.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Old Timer,

Request  FREE copy of the my book, and I'll send it.

Request it at kjvbiblejax@aol.com

Yours,

Michael

No Way Bro

I would put your book in one of my bathrooms.

Still not one verse of scripture to say Jesus can come tonight.

False teachings? PROVE IT!

Michael

   Titus 2:12  "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
   13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
   14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

     The Rapture is a revealed MYSTERY. This means evidence needs to be gathered to reveal the mystery. The two witnesses play a role and their timing is key. All of Scripture must be considered, not a single verse to explain a revealed mystery. The key to the book of Revelation is Rev. 1:19. If you misunderstand what that verse means you will not understand format of the book.

     The 70th week of Daniel begins with a covenant between Israel and Antichrist backed by ten nations. At the beginning of the covenant, on that very day the two witnesses begin their 1,260 days of testamony. They are also candlesticks before the Lord on earth. The seven candlesticks (the Church) are replaced by these two witnesses. Why? Because the Rapture occurs before the 70th week of Daniel begins.

     I can go on and on but i'll wait to see what your answer to this is first.

Michael, I tried to email you at this address but the email bounced.
Art

In response to Paul2' comments,

Paul, yes the two prophets of Rvelation 11:3-13 will preach the first 3 1/2 yrs of the tribulation and be raptured in chapter 11, along with the Church, for that's the same chapter as the "last trump" of I Cor 15:51 which occurs in Revelation 11:15.

Notice also in Rev 10:7, that THEN, the mystery of God is finished, the Church age will be over, an only then is the Church gone, not before the "last trump." Paul says in Ephesians, "I show you a mystery...I speak concerning Christ and the Church." Rev 10:7 uses  the same word relating to last trump, MYSTERY. So the "mystery" is revealed about the Rapture, as God shows and declares to His servants the prophets. Rev 10:7

We must go by what te Apostle Paul said, not what we have been previously "taught."

We will always be looking for the coming of our Lord, just as the early Church was, but Paul clarified certain things MUST come first, before the day of Christ when we are taken up with Him. A falling away, and the man of sin be revealed, which has not happened yet.

Thus the Rapture cannot be tonight, tommrrow, next year, or the year after. Only 3 1/2 yrs after the triblation begins, can we expect His return. Either way, we are still looking and awaiting His coming. Just because John says, "Lord come" and Jesus says "I come quickly," does not mean He's coming or could come tonight. 2000 years is hardly "quickly." The scriptures that say we ae looking and waiting for our Lord's return is not evidence He can come tonight, especially if we takes these scriptures and line them up with the dozens of other verses, that says WHEN He will come such as "last trump" and seeing the saints, churches, bride, and those in white in the book of Revelation. Revelation is for the "churches" Jesus said in Rev 22:16.

Titus 2:13 does say we are "looking for His Coming." Many scriptures do. But an immeniant return at any moment is not what Paul taught, nor anyone else. Read II Thess 2:1-4. I might be "looking for a wife" or"looking to be rich" but that does not mean I might be rich tonight. Thus, still no evidence Paul, for a pre-tribulation rapture. That' why I preented the challenge for one verse to prove a pre-trib rapture, because there is none. But there are hundreds of verses to prove the Chruch will be in tribulation in the end-time.

Also Acts 3:19-21 says Jesus cannot return "UNTIL" resitition and Restoration comes first, along with dozens of other prophecies, like the latter rain, the spirit of Elijah, the "last trump" of the seven trumpets, and more.


Yours,

Michael

A4C: it look as though I might need to do some date counting for you bro....

pre-trib... BAHAHAHAHAH

prophecyjax1: your email adres is bouncing, it that really your email adres ?

Does the word of God use Jewish tradition for a lot of things?

What they do in their life the Church does in it's life.

So it is safe to say that the marriage supper lasts for one week and for that week they party while everyone else is outside that were not invited, that being so, then it is easy to conclude that while the world suffers through the seven years of the trib; the bride is at the marriage supper for the week/seven days/seven years.

oops i did not put in the word for you to examine.


John 2
1  On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there;
2   and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.
3   When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine."
4   And Jesus said to her, " Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come."
5   His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it."
6   Now there were six stone waterpots set there for the Jewish custom of purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each.


On the third day of the week there was a wedding.  But they had already been there for three days when the wine run out.  Poor host did not plan ahead.  Unlike the Father who has planned ahead for the wedding party that last for a week.


Party on Dudes

Michael, You have asked for a verse that indicates a pre-tribulation Rapture and I will give you one, although as you have studied this issue for 20 years, as you have said, I doubt you will accept it.

The Church is spoken of in the first 3 chapters in Revelation. This is not only written of seven churches that existed at the time of John, but the Church through all the ages. Also individuals within the Church through all the ages. Also individual churches through all the ages.

After Revelation 4 and before the opening of the seals, the Church is not to be found again until the end of Revelation.

In Revelation it is the angels that sound the trumpets. In the epistle of Paul it is the trump of God (1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.)

Now Here is the verse for which you have been searching for 20 years: Rev. 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. The first voice! This is the voice of God, Rev. 1:10, sounding like a trumpet!

Here is the verse you have been looking for: Revelation 4:1.  This is the trump of God, not one of the trumpets sounded by the angels. The Church is called up. Represented later (I believe) by the 24 Elders.

Normally I would not be concerned if one wanted to believe in a mid-trib rapture but your quote: “the Rapture cannot be tonight, tomorrow, next year, or the year after” is not scriptural as this is in direct conflict with what Christ has said. We are to watch, be ready  always, for we know not when He shall return. The 24th chapter of Matthew describes the 2 future comings of Christ. One at the end of a tribulation, when He will be seen by all, the second when no one is expecting it.  Also Mat. 25:13.

In 1 Thes. 5:1-9 this is stated again, He comes as a thief in the night. When they are saying “Peace and Safety.” How can people be saying Peace and safety in the middle of the tribulation? After the chaos and destruction caused by the first six angels sounding?

Everything is now in place for our Lord to return. Nothing more must be accomplished. Israel has returned to the Holy Land and Jerusalem. Those unfulfilled prophecies like the Temple being rebuilt will be done in the 7 year tribulation period. Mat 25:10  And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.”

Rev. 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

To answer Old Timer's comments,

OK, let’s take a specific look at the Church of Jesus Christ in the tribulation period. Let’s go to the books of Revelation and Daniel and behold the saints (church folk) right in the midst of it all. Old Timer argues that the Church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter four, and thus we will not be here. If we don’t take all scripture relating to any subject, we will not understand! Brother, we cannot just take a few verses and come to a conclusion. You will see, that the Church is mentioned in Revelation, and displayed frequently throughout the book. We know that saints come from the Church as Paul said. ( I Corinthians 1:1-2.) Just because the word “Church” is not mentioned does not mean the Church will not be there. God is not even mentioned in the books of Esther and Song of Solomon. Does that mean God is not there, or in action in those books? Of coarse not. The Church is not mentioned as “the Church” in the books of Titus, II Timothy, II Peter, I John, II John, and Jude, but we know it’s written to the Church. So to say the Church is not mentioned after revelation chapter four, is a very weak argument. Besides, the Church IS spoken of after chapter four.

Another argument is in Revelation 4:1 where the angel says to John, “Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must be hereafter,” claiming this is the Rapture. This also is a very weak argument, for clearly the angel was talking specifically to John, not to the entire Church, which Jesus Himself applies to the book of Revelation.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Israel is mentioned in the entire Bible 2301 times, and only 3 of those references are in the book of Revelation. Revelation 2:14 mentions Balaam, who taught Balac how to cause Israel to stumble. In Revelation 7:4, the 144,000 Jews are saved, and in Revelation 21:12, it’s referring to the names of the twelve tribes of Israel in heaven. Nowhere else in the book of Revelation is Israel referred to. The Jews are mentioned 244 times in the entire Bible and only mentioned twice in Revelation. The two references in chapters 2 and 3, Christ was referring to false Jews. Nowhere else in Revelation are the Jews referred to. However with that said, look at some of the following references in the book of Revelation.

1)   The Saints            13 times
2)   The Church             7 times
3)   The Churches        12 times
4)   The Brethren          4 times
5)   Servants              10 times
6)   The Bride               4 times
7)   The Lambs Wife       2 times
8)   Those in White Robes   4 times
9)   Those in White Linen    2 times
10)   Everlasting Gospel      1 time
11)   Prophets                  8 times
12)   Jesus                     12 times
13)   The Lamb of God       27 times

Compare these references to the fact that the Jews and the Nation of Israel are not specifically referred to one time in Revelation. Also mark the words of Jesus in Revelation 22:16; “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.” Still think the Church is not mentioned or somehow involved in the book of Revelation? According to these references, it sure looks like a lot of saints from the Church will be around, along with the two prophets of Revelation 11:3-13. And so will the Everlasting Gospel with God’s end-time message, which must also first be preached.

So brother, to say the Church is not mentioned after Revelation Chapter 4, is not what he Bible shows.

Be open my friend, the overwhelming scriptural evidence points to the mid-trib rapture.

Yours,

Michael

BAHAHAHAHAH  ;D ;D

We will be Raptured before the Tribulation as our reward for being faithful to Jesus.

    1Th 5:9   For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,  
   
    1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.  
   
    1Th 5:11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do

Only the unrighteous will be left to God's Wrath.

    Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;  
   
    Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:  
   
    Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:  
   
    Rom 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,  
   
    Rom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;


    Col 3:4   When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.  
   
    Col 3:5  Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:  
   
    Col 3:6   For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

    1Th 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.  
 
 
Couple this together with Early 57's post and you get the total package.

 Early 57 quote...

"John 2
1  On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there;
2  and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.
3  When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine."
4  And Jesus said to her, " Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come."
5  His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it."
6  Now there were six stone waterpots set there for the Jewish custom of purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each.


On the third day of the week there was a wedding.  But they had already been there for three days when the wine run out.  Poor host did not plan ahead.  Unlike the Father who has planned ahead for the wedding party that last for a week.


Party on Dudes  
Posted by: Early57  Posted on: Today at 04:27:01am  
Does the word of God use Jewish tradition for a lot of things?

What they do in their life the Church does in it's life.

So it is safe to say that the marriage supper lasts for one week and for that week they party while everyone else is outside that were not invited, that being so, then it is easy to conclude that while the world suffers through the seven years of the trib; the bride is at the marriage supper for the week/seven days/seven years.

Once again in response to Bronzsnake, and other comments about God not appointing us to wrath.

Read he previous posts, God's wrath does not even begin till Rev 16:1.

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

God’s judgments are revealed at this point, but notice the next verse, which starts out by saying, “and after that.”
Revelation 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Revelation 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Revelation 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Once God’s judgments are poured out, “after that” He begins to pour out His wrath, of which we are assured deliverance from. The actual beginning of God’s wrath is in Revelation 16:1 as follows.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Hopefully now we understand the difference between the judgments of God and the wrath of God. With this clarity we can understand prophecy better, and the timing of the Rapture becomes more vivid. Another scripture that seems to indicate deliverance from tribulation is in Luke 21:36.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Jesus said, pray to be accounted worthy to “escape all these things.” Some note that because He said “all these things” that this is a verse of proof that we will escape the entire tribulation period. However, with that said, and all the evidence from scripture prior, we will leave you to decide. Jesus does mention in Luke 21:23 that there will be “wrath” upon this people. Luke 21:1-22 mentions many of God’s judgments, and in verse
23 the tone changes to God’s wrath. We believe that according to all the other verses of scripture, that Jesus was only referring to deliverance from “all of God’s wrath.” Luke 21:23-28 is very similar to the verses in Revelation 6:12-18 which takes a parenthetical view and jumps out of perfect sequence. Revelation 6:16 calls it the “wrath of the Lamb.” Another common case for a pre-tribulation Rapture is found in Revelation 3:10.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Once, again, if we place all the other scriptures together with these promises of deliverance from wrath, temptation, and “all these things;” we can only conclude God promises deliverance from the last 3½ years of the tribulation. Jesus said He would “keep us” from the hour, not take us away from it. The Greek word for “keep” here is “tereo,” taken from “teros,” which means “a watch, to guard from loss or injury, by keeping the eye upon.” God does not promise anywhere to totally deliver us from temptation, but to provide a way where we can endure it, and go through it!

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

So when Jesus is telling us to pray that we may be able to “escape all these things,” He’s referring to the same escape as I Corinthians 10:13 is, meaning an “escape,” that we may be able to bear with. God will “keep” us “with the temptation,” not take us out of the world, so that we don’t have to face it.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

So please, I agree, God has not appointd us to wrath, but that leaves us in His judgments the first 3 1/2 yrs.

Yours,

Michael

Still the challenge has not yet been met. Not one verse of scripture to say we will be delivered from the entire tribulation period, yet about 30 verses of evidence to show contrary.

The score is

Bible Evidence     30
Pre-Trib Theory     0

Yours,

Michael

A4C: I would like to talk with you, or open up a thread on your views.

It would enlighten a lot of souls regarding your theological stance.

I see a continuing waivering faith in your posts, and as I would really like to approach you serious as a christian and spend time in seriously answering your posts I think I have the right to know where you stand in the faith.

We don't need to agree, for let's say 50%, but I would be delighted to see some more salty posts coming from your direction before I spend time in seriously answering your queries.

And even when you are not interested in my view as a brother (!) in Christ, I believe I still have the right to bench your theological views as I post only in the prophetic part of this Christian board.

So far I have been very unimpressed by the level that you present here, but I am convinced that there is more then meets the eye, yet is afraid to show itself.

FYI in Christ,
Aryan aka TwoBombs

  Old Timer is right. The seven letters to the seven churches of Revelation are Three fold.
    First they were letters to the Seven real churches in those locations of that time period.
   Second they are letters to the universal church of the age of Grace. They contain a message for each person who is Christian.
   Third they represent the different time periods of the Church until the Rapture.

   We are in the time period of two churches in the letters of Revelation now. Philidelphia is the true church of the age now.
Philidelphia will be Raptured. Laodicea is the false church of the age now. Laodicea will be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture to enter into the Tribulation as the whore of Revelation 17. Laodicea is a false Church that professes Christianity and Jesus but distorts the truth of the Gospel. They can not be digested into the body of Christ and must be vomited out.

    The true Church of Philidelphia is the church that gives out the word of God. Old Timer used the passage of the wedding feast. When the door was shut. To the church of Philidelphia the Door is open.

Revelation 3:7  "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
   8: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
   9: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
  10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Philidelphia is Raptured at the voice like a trumpet from Jesus in Revelation 4:1. Laodicea is vomited out and left behind.

    Revelation 3: 14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
   15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
   16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

    The 24 Elders are the representatives of the Church Age. We are in the crowd after the Rapture and witness these events in the verses below. We are the redeemed!

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
   9: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
   10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


                                                              Paul2

Paul,

Revelation 4:1 has nothing to do with the Rapture, the Angel was talking to John. Revelation 4:2 John says, ....I was in the spirit..." Paul, who taught you that was the Rapture? That's a real stretch of scripture. Remember---"at the last trump"

Bronze,

John Chapter 2 has nothing to do with the Rapture. An even further stretch.

STILL, not one verse of scriptural evidence to show a pre-trib Rapture.

Score is:

Bible Evidence  40
Pre-trib theory   0

Yours,

Michael

You can score all you want, 40, 50, 60 why not make it an even 100.

All I need is 1.


Jewish customs and traditions are part of how things are done.


Like the 10 virgins who are invited to come to the wedding but only 5 come in because they are not ready.  the wedding feast is one week long so the marriage supper will last seven years.   One day Equal's one year.

But since this is something you cannot win against even if you bring 200 I guess the battle is already won, By God.

And the need for someone to Hi "jax" the "prophecy" "1" more time is un-needed.


Bring it on or shut it down.  But do not ignore me any longer.

    Your not following Johns outline for Revelation are you? No, thats why your mistaken. Revelation 1:19 is the key. Heres the problem. People who seek an easy answer come up with yours. To find the truth requires a working knowledge of ALL scripture. Everything must fit. People like you are looking for a passage or two to prove a doctrine that was a hidden mystery and requires all scripture to work together in harmony.

    I don't have time for details now because my son has baseball in a few minutes but I'll be happy to show you the faults of your theory later.

    Heres a few questions to get started with:

    When do the 2 witnesses of Revelation begin their ministry?
    When are they killed?
 
     Heres an outline of the Book of Revelation:
OUTLINE OF REVELATION by Dr. J Vernon McGee of the
Thru the Bible radio broadcasts.

I. The Person of Jesus Christ-Christ in Glory, chapter 1
A. Title of the book, chapter 1:1
B. Method of Revelation, chapter 1:2
C. Beatitude of Bible Study, chapter 1:3
D. Greeting from John the writer and from Jesus Christ
in Heaven, chapter 1:4-8
E. The post-Incarnate Christ in a Glorified Body, Judging
His Church(the Great High Priest in the Holy of Holies),
chapter 1:9-18
F. Time Division of the Contents of Apocalypse,
chapter 1:19
G Interpretation of the Seven stars and Seven
Lampstands, chapter 1:20

II. The Possession of Jesus Christ-The Church in the World,
Chapters 2-3

A. Letter of Christ to the church in Ephesus, Rev. 2:1-7
B. Letter of Christ to the Church in Smyrna, Rev. 2:8-11
C. Letter of Christ to the church in Pergamum,
Rev 2:12-17
D. Letter of Christ to the church in Thyatira, Rev.2:18-29
E. Letter of Christ to the church in Sardis, Rev.3:1-6
F. Letter of Christ to the church in Philadelphia,
Rev.3:7-13
G. Letter of Christ to the church in Laodicea,
Rev.3:14-22

III. The Program of Jesus Christ-The scene in Heaven,
Chapters 4-22
A. The Church in Heaven with Christ Chapters 4-5
1. Throne of God, Rev 4:1-3
2. Twenty-four Elders, Rev. 4:4-5
3. Four Living Creatures, Rev. 4:6-11
4. Book with seven Seals, Rev. 5:1-4
5. Christ: the Lion of the tribe of Judah and the Lamb
which has been Slain, Rev. 5:5-10
6. Myriads of Angels of Heaven Join the Song of Praise
and Redemption, Rev. 5:11-12
7. Universal Worship of the Savior and Sovereign of the
Universe, Rev.5:13-14
B. The Great Tribulation in the World, Chapters 6-18
1. Opening of the Seven-Sealed Book, Chapters 6:8:1
A. Opening of the First Seal, Rev.6:1-2
(Rider on a White Horse)
B. Opening of the Second Seal, Rev. 6:3-4
(Rider on a Red Horse)
C. Opening of the Third Seal, Rev. 6:5-6
(Rider on a Black Horse)
D. Opening of the Fourth Seal, Rev. 6:7-8
(Rider on a Pale Horse)
E. Opening of the Fifth Seal, Rev. 6:9-11
(Prayer of the Martyred Remnant)
F. Opening of the Sixth Seal, Rev. 6:12-17
(Day of Wrath Has Come-Beginning the Last Half
of the Great Tribulation)
G. Interlude, Rev. chapter 7
(1) Reason for the Interlude between the 6th and
7th Seals, Rev. 7:1-3
(2) Remnant of Israel Sealed, Rev. 7:4-8
(3) Redeemed Multitude of Gentiles, Rev. 7:9-17
H. Opening of the Seventh Seal- Introduction of
Seven Trumpets, Rev. 8:1
2. Blowing of the Seven Trumpets, Chapters 8:2-11:19
A. Angel at the Alter with Censer of incense
Rev. 8:2-6
B. First Trumpet-Trees Burnt, Rev.8:7
C. Second Trumpet-Seas Become Blood, Rev.8:8-9
D. Third Trumpet-Fresh Water Becomes Bitter,
Rev. 8:10-11
E. Fourth Trumpet-Sun,Moon,Stars Smitten,
Rev. 8:12-13
F. Fifth Trumpet-Fallen Star and Plague of locust
Rev. 9:1-12
G. Sixth Trumpet-Angels Loosed at Euphrates River,
Rev. 9:13-21
H. Interlude between the Sixth and Seventh Trumpets
Rev. 10:1- 11:14
(1) The Strong Angel with the Little Book, Rev10:1-7
(2) John Eats the Little Book, Rev.10:8-11
(3) Date for the Ending of "the Times of the Gentiles"
Rev. 11:1-2
(4) Duration of the Prophesying of the Two
Witnesses, Rev. 11:3-12
(5) Doom of the Second Woe-Great Earthquake,
Rev. 11:13-14
I. Seventh Trumpet-End of Great Tribulation and
Opening of Temple in Heaven, Rev. 11:15-19

3. Seven Performers During the Great Tribulation
Chapters 12-13
A. The Woman- Israel, Rev.12:1-2
B. The Red Dragon- Satan, Rev. 12:3-4
C. The Child of the Woman- Jesus Christ, Rev. 12:5-6
D. Michael, the Archangel, Wars with the Dragon
Rev. 12:7-12
E. the Dragon persecutes the Women, Rev. 12:13-16
F. Remnant of Israel, Rev. 12:17
G. Wild beast Out of the Sea- a Political Power and
a person, Rev.13:1-10
(1) Wild Beast, Description, Rev.13:1-2
(2) Wild Beast, Death-Dealing Stroke, Rev. 13:3
(3) Wild Beast, Deity Assumed, Rev.13:4-5
(4) Wild Beast, Defying God, Rev. 13:6-8
(5) Wild Beast, Defiance Denied to Anyone,
Rev 13:9-10
H. Wild Beast Out of the Earth- a Religious Leader,
Rev.13:11-18
(1) Wild Beast, Description, Rev.13:11
(2) Wild Beast, Delegated Authority, Rev. 13:12-14
(3) Wild Beast, Delusion Perpetrated on the World,
Rev. 13:15-17
(4) Wild Beast, Designation, Rev. 13:18
4. Looking to the end of the Great Tribulation, Chapter 14
A. Picture of the Lamb with the 144,000, Rev.14:1-5
B. Proclamation of the Everlasting Gospel, Rev 14:6-7
C. Pronouncement of Judgement on Babylon, Rev. 14:8
D. Pronouncement of Judgement on Those Who
Received the Mark of the Beast, Rev. 14:9-12
E. Praise for Those Who Die in the Lord, Rev. 14:13
F. Preview of Armageddon, Rev. 14:14-20
5. Pouring Out of the Seven Bowls of Wrath,
Chapters 15-16
A. Preparation for Final Judgement of the Great
Tribulation, Rev. 15:1-16:1
(1) Tribulation Saints in Heaven Worship God,
Rev.15:1-4
(2) Temple of the Tabernacle Opened in Heaven that
Seven Angels, Having Seven Golden Bowls, Might
proceed Forth, Rev.15:5-16:1
B. Pouring Out of the First Bowl, Rev.16:2
(Painful Sores for all who took the mark of the Beast)
C. Pouring Out of the Second Bowl, Rev. 16:3
(Every Living Thing in the Sea Dies)
D. Pouring Out of the Third Bowl, Rev. 16:4-7
(All Drinking Water turns to Blood)
E. Pouring Out of the Fourth Bowl, Rev. 16:8-9
(Sun Scorches people)
F. Pouring Out of the Fifth Bowl, Rev. 16:10-11
(Darkness on throne of the Beast)
G. Pouring Out of the Sixth Bowl, Rev. 16:12
(Euphrates River Dries Up to Prepare way for kings
of the East)
H. Interlude: Kings of Inhabited Earth Proceed to
Har-Mageddon, Rev. 16:13-16
I. Pouring Out of the Seventh Bowl, Rev. 16:17-21
6. The Two Babylons Judged, Chapters 17-18
A. The Apostate Church in the Great Tribulation
Chapter 17
(1) Great Harlot Riding the Wild Beast, Rev. 17:1-7
(2) Wild Beast Destroys the Great Harlot, Rev. 17:8-18
B. Political and Commercial Babylon Judged, Chapter 18
(1) Announcement of Fall of Commercial and
political Babylon, Rev. 18:1-8
(2) Anguish in the World Because of Judgement on
Babylon, Rev. 18:9-19
(3) Anticipation of Joy in Heaven Because of Babylons
Judgement, Rev. 18:20-24
C. Marriage of the Lamb and Return of Christ in
Judgement, Chapter 19
1. Four Hallelujahs, Rev. 19:1-6
2. Bride of the Lamb and Marriage Supper,
Rev. 19:7-10
3. Return of Christ as King of Kings, Lord of Lords,
Rev. 19:11-16
4. Battle of Armageddon, Rev.19:17-18
5. Hell Opened, Rev. 19:19-21
D. Millennium, Chapter 20
1. Satan Bound for 1,000 Years, Rev.20:1-3
2. Saints of the Great Tribulation Reign with Christ
1,000 years, Rev. 20:4-6
3. Satan Loosed After 1,000 Years, Rev.20:7-9
4. Satan Cast into Lake of Fire and Brimstone,
Rev. 20:10
5. Setting of Great White Throne Where Lost Are
Judged and Follow Satan into Lake of Fire,
Rev. 20:11-15
E. Entrance Into Eternity; Eternity Unveiled,
Chapters 21-22
1. New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem, Rev 21:1-2
2. New Era, Rev. 21:3-8
3. New Jerusalem, Description of the eternal Abode of
the Bride, Rev. 21:9-21
4. New Relationship-God Dwelling With Man,
Rev. 21:22-23
5. New Center of the New Creation, Rev. 21:24-27
6. River of Water of Life and Tree of Life, Rev. 22:1-5
7. Promise of Return of Christ, Rev. 22:6-16
8. Final Invitation and Warning, Rev. 22:17-19
9. Final Promise and Prayer, Rev. 22:20-21

Paul and Early,

With respect, I know your trying to justfy a pre-trib Rapture, and I respect your efforts.

But we cannot escpae the fact that Paul says it occurs at "the last trump." (I Corinthians 15:52.) This trump occurs in Rev 11:15 and if you read Rev 10:7, the "Mystey" of Christ and the Church is finished.

If you study the history of a pre-trib rapture, you'll be shocked.

In 1830, a fifteen-year Catholic old girl, named Margaret Macdonald, had a dream of the Church being taken out of the world before the tribulation. She lived in Port Glashow, Scotland. Her dream was written down on paper, and soon spread in the community. In 1831 a Presbyterian minister, named Edward Irving, had picked up on the view, and began teaching the Church was to be raptured before the tribulation. This view began to gain popularity. Mr. Irving was actually kicked out of his denomination for this teaching, and later started what is today known as “The Catholic Apostolic Church.”

As the view gained popularity, another man named John Darby, of the Plymouth Brethren, began this teaching and it spread even to a further degree. Now Mr. Darby had a follower named Cyrus Scofield, who is the main influence for the pre-tribulation view to enter the United States. In 1909 Scofield included, the pre-tribulation view in his reference Bible. As a result, many denominations in the United States began teaching a pre-tribulation Rapture.

Mr. MacPherson’s book created such a stir, as to the origin, that many ministers wrote him, and declared their surprise as to the true origins. One seminary president wrote him as follows, “It really is a most interesting historical fact to observe that the pre-tribulation rapture originated in this astonishing way.” (Dave MacPhearson’s “The Incredible Cover-Up” pp 93-94, Omega Publications)

An Oregon Bible teacher wrote Mr. MacPhearson, as follows, “You will be interested to know that many years ago I had dinner in Seattle with a then middle-aged couple who were members of the Catholic Apostolic Church (Irvingite sect). At the time I believed in pre-trism and told them so. They asked me where I got the doctrine. I told them ‘from the Bible’. They said, ‘No you didn’t’ and went on to tell me how it was not in the Bible but revealed to their church through one of their prophetesses around the middle of the 19th century.” (Dave MacPhearson’s “The Incredible Cover-Up”, pp 93-94, Omega Publications).

This does raise an eyebrow or two as to the originating source of the pre-trib view.

With all that said, the only traditional Church teaching we should hold to, is that which is contained in scripture.

Please, let "God be true, and every man a liar." Romans 3:4

Yours,

Michael

Listen to pre-trib teacher Hilton Sutton as follows,

His book called the "Rapture" was an argument for a pre-tribulation Rapture, and in his book, he made the following statement, to our surprise.

“If you search for a single verse of scripture which states specifically that the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ and the catching up of the Church is prior to the tribulation, your search will be in vain. There is no such verse. But by studying the whole of God’s Word, you will discover that the rapture is a certainty, and it very definitely comes before the tribulation period.”

If we study the whole of God’s Word, and cannot find one verse to support a pre-tribulation rapture, how can a conclusion be made for one? What are we going to do with the hundreds of scriptures that do show us going onto the tribulation? Should not we allow the scriptures to persuade our own pre-suppositions? We must hold to Bible evidence, and weigh the pre-tribulation Rapture on the scales of God’s Word. We believe once it is weighed, the pre-tribulation Rapture, will be found wanting.

Once we believe and understand the Church is going into half of the tribulation period, suddenly we identify ourselves with being there, and realize we will be a part of God’s end-time restoration. Things become more real, and the prophecies in Revelation and Daniel come alive. We will be part of the most exciting time the Church has ever seen. No matter what we face, His grace will be sufficient, and we will still have the blessed hope to comfort each other with. God will never give us more than we can bear, He will provide and deliver us, when the time is right. Jesus said, “FEAR NOT,” for I will be with you till the end of time.

Bible Evidence vs Tradition

Yours,

Michael

For those who got on Chad for His earthquake prophecy, you might be instrested to know the pre-tribulation rapture comes from a prophecy of a 15 yr old catholic girl in Scotland in 1830.
She had a vision of the Curch being raptured before the tribulation, and it's proven documented fact, that this is the true origin of a pre-trib theory.

So before you jump on Chad for his earthquake prophecy, you might consider your pre-trib beliefs comes from a false prophecy also. How ironic indeed.

Yours,

Michael

Dear Friends,

Don't despair. God will be with us during the first 3 1/2 yrs of the tribulation according to the following prophecy.

Deuteronomy 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
Deuteronomy 4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Clearly a prophetic Word for our comfort! God assures us when we are in the tribulation, “even in the latter days,” that He will be with us and never forsake us. As the song goes, “there is peace in the midst of the storm.”

Score:

Bible Evidence    47
Pre-Trb theory    0

Yours,

Michael

    First let me say I'm not trying to convince you personally. You are making bold statements that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is False. I disagree and will explain why only it will take a serious amount of effort to address all the issues. To solve a mystery you must be come a detective and search ALL the evidence. Your theory sounds easy enough in the beginning but when all evidence is considered it fails. Most people don't want to study deep enough to examine all the evidence required to correctly solve the mystery of the Rapture.

    I'll start laying out evidence for the benifit of those who read this to show that your not unchallenged as you claim.

    Its to bad the site crashed for much of this frame work was already layed out once but what can you do?

   Welcome to Pre-Tribulation Rapture 101:

    First lets start at the book of Revelation. John was given a format to follow in writing the book and we are given a format to follow when reading the book. If you do not follow the format of the book you will surely misinterpret the context.

Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

"Write the things which thou hast seen," What had he seen? The vision of Chapter 1. This is past tense. Stay with me this is really quite simple.

"and the things which are" What are the things which are? The seven letters to the seven Churches, Church things, the Church age. What is Jesus doing in the seven letters to the Churches? Jesus is walking, not sitting between the seven lamp stands, Jesus is judging His Church. This is present tense. Jesus is still judging His Church. This is still an on going action. He warned the seven Churches and he has judged the literal seven churches the letters were adderessed to because the lay in ruins today. The seven letters are also for us. We are being judged. The letters to philidelphia and Laodicea are also prophetic Letters to the church on earth now. Philidelphia is to be Raptured. Laodicea has doctinal errors causing it to be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture and its becomes the harlot of Revelation 17.

   We are living in the period of time between Chapter 1 and Chapter 4. This is Christs Church program, present tense.

   Lets look at the key verse again and finish this up shall we:

 Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;


and the things which shall be hereafter; HERE AFTER WHAT? THE CHURCH! WE started with a vision, you'll notice some part of the vision in each of the seven letters, Then came the Seven letters which is Christ Speaking to His Church and actively judging it. The Church is still here and the seven letters still apply to us. At the Rapture Jesus completes the judgement of the Church. The dead and the living Church are judged. Laodicea is vomited out into the Tribulation. WE are still in the time period of the things which are.

and the things which shall be hereafter;  Here after is future tense. After the Rapture and the Church is judged. This is the beginning of the tribulation period.

    Now we need to find where the part of the verse and the things which shall be hereafter; fits in.

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    Ok now put it all together. we left off at the seven letters and Christ judging His Church. we are living during "the things which are" present tense. This present period must end before "the things which must be hereafter" can begin. There must be an end of the church age before the tribulation period can begin.

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
     
This is the Rapture! Theres your trumpet, Its the voice of Jesus. This open door is the same open door in the letter to the church of Philidephia, the Raptured church of those who were alive at the Rapture.

    This event in Chapter 4:1 is the Rapture and that event is what closes out the Age of Grace and the Church and Allows "the things which must be hereafter.to begin. The opening of the seven sealed scroll begins the tribulation, we are in heaven witnessing Jesus take the scroll from the Father. We are not destined for wrath. We are going to a Wedding.

   This is just one reason for pre-Tribulation Rapture but I'll keep adding on evidence as time permits me.

                                           The Pre-Trib View by Paul2
         

     WRONG!  

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    The first voice he heard as it were a trumpet was who?

Revelation 1:10: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
   11: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
   12: And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
   13: And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
   14: His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
   15: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
   16: And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
   17: And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
   18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
   19: Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
   20: The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

    The voice John first heard like a trumpet was the Lord Jesus Christ.

   
   WRONG

    You can put up a point for my side. You got lost awful fast didn't you? Jesus is Calling John to Heaven in Chapter 4 and when we reach that point in time we'll be called to heaven also. John went to the Lords day in Spirit, we must wait for the actual day to go bodily.

     How you can say an angel was speaking to him when chapter 1 makes it clear as day he was speaking with Jesus, who was the first voice like a trumpet mind you that he heard.

    Are we having fun yet?

                                        The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2

Hey,  Address the Issue of tradition or go home.

      Prophecyjax1

     I'll be the score keeper. You have been proven wrong once so far. You claimed John was speaking to an angel in Revelation 4:1 and your wrong. It was Jesus and the proof is in the last post I sent. (Rev. 1:10)

               PROVED WRONG BY SCRIPTURE

         Prophecyjax1- 1                        Paul2-0

    You were proved clearly wrong by scripture. Theres no doubt about. Theres no chance we both could be right. Jesus was speaking to John in Revelation 4:1.

    You've been proved wrong once. Stop the presses on the book! You'll be proved wrong again and again as we go deeper.

    When all the details are finished being examined your theory crumbles like a cookie.

      I'm winning so far. You been clearly proved wrong by scripture once so far. No doubt on the subject.

                                      The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2

Hi prophecyjax1,

You said that the antichrist will be revealed in the mid-trib. Yet Daniel 9:27 says that he will make a peace pact with Israel at the beginning of the Trib. Obviously the antichrist will be revealed at the beginning of the trib and not at mid-trib like you stated. God bless.
 

Daniel 9:27 “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

Pilgrim

            The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11

    It is imporant to understand the time period of the ministry of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. At the time of their ministry (1,260 days) they are the chosen representatives for God on earth. Lets look at the scripture and then I'll explain the importance.

Revelation 11:3   "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
   4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

     The seven candlesticks mentioned in Revelation 1 are now not on earth but have been replaced by the two witnesses who are the only two people on earth with the Holy Spirit at the time of their ministry. Old testament Saints were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit but "led" by the Holy Spirit externally. The Only group indwelt by the Holy Spirit is the Church. The Holy Spirit started indwelling man at Pentecost and will end at the Rapture. The reason the word church is not found between chapter 3 and 22 is because the church has left earth and been Raptured. Believers during this period are called "Saints", which was also used to describe believers of old testament times. The church believers are also called Saints but theres a big difference between old testament Saints and Church Saints. Church Saints are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, old testament Saints were not. Saints of the Tribulation will not be Holy Spirit indwelt like the Church but will be led by the Holy Spirit as in old testament times. Not all Saints are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Thats what makes the Church unique.

     The reason the two witnesses are called lampstands is they are the only two on earth at the time of their ministry indwelt by the Holy Spirit. These are God's Ambassadors during the first half of the Tribulation or Daniels 70th week.

    Their ministry starts on the first day of Daniel's 70th week and continues until the mid week, 1260 days later. They begin their ministry on the very day the 7 year treaty with Israel is signed by Antichrist.

    How do I know that? Because Antichrist kills them at the middle of the 70th week.

 Revelation 11:7  "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

     The two witnesses are divinely protected during their Ministry. They have power and control over rain and plagues.
Anyone who tries to harm them bursts into flames. They are unstoppable until finished with their ministry of 1260 days.

    On the last day of their ministry 1260 days after the treaty between Israel and Antichrist is signed the Antichrist goes to the rebuilt Temple and is fatally wounded and healed. Antichrist now starts his 42 month reign. He declares himself God and demands worship. His first "ACT" as self proclaimed God is to kill the two witnesses. No one else had been able to silence the two prophets before but Antichrist kills them to try to deceive people into believing he is God.

     People rejoice and love the Antichrist because he killed the two witnesses and people send gifts to each other, sort of an "AntiChristmas." The party is short lived because the bodies of the two prophets are refused burial and lie in the street of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 Days until they are brought back to life, rise up an accend in full view of people just like Jesus.

    Antichrist ends the ministry of the two witnesses at the middle of Daniel's 70th week. The two witnesses ministry of 1,260 days can not be during the reign of Antichrists 42 months. Antichrist could not claim to be all powerful God during the two witnesses ministry. If he tried to do so people would question why he was powerless to stop them. He does stop them on the Last day of their Ministry which also happens to be the first day of Antichrists 42 month reign or 1,260 days which is the last half of Daniel's 70th week.

     What does all this mean? The Church is Raptured before the 70th week of Daniel begins. God sends two witnesses to be His Prophets during the first half of the 70th week. At the middle of the week Antichrist kills them ending their ministry and begins His 1,260 days or 42 months of reign.

     At the middle of Daniel's 70th week God seals the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel and they are led to the dessert in a place God perpared for them for 1260 days. We'll get into detail on this last part in do time.

                                            The Pre-Trib.View by Paul2

Revelation 3:11   "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

     Jesus was giving the church of Philidelphia a warning. There is an imminence to the message. What Crown?

     The message to Philidelphia is also the message Jesus has for the Church living on earth at the time of the Rapture. We have a crown offered but it can be stolen by men. This crown is not Salvation but a crown of reward. There is a special crown given to those who look forward to Jesus coming for them at the Rapture. For those who love his appearing. For those who believe and expect the imminent return of Christ to remove His Church from earth.

2 Timothy 4:8   "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

      Many have tried to steal my Crown. Steal my hope of the imminate Return of the Lord to call us out of the world. To replace my hope with the Tribulation. To replace my Joy of hoping the Rapture is soon with dread that it might be in my life time. I protect my Crown like I was warned by Jesus to do.

     I have placed my faith in God"s word for he promised me this: Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    I believe Him. The Church should be expecting Christ now!
He could come at any minute. We are in the way of the treaty. Daniel's 70th week can not begin until were gone. We need to get busy for DAYS ARE SHORT. Are you ready to be Raptured or would it overtake you as a thief in the night?

    Will you receive your Crown? or will you be standing there empty handed smelling of smoke? Jesus could come at any moment. Theres nothing that must come first. The 70th week of Daniel CAN NOT begin until the Rapture has occured.

    Hold on to your crown tight and be ready to meet the Lord in the air. Let no man steal your Crown!

    I'll tackle the 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 issues on the next post.

                                             The Pre-Trib.View by Paul2  

     Lets get some background. Paul was in Thessalonica for 3 weeks and started a Church there. He sent the Church a letter known as 1 Thessalonians. He revealed to the Thessalonians the Rapture. That was the focal point of the 1st. letter.

    Paul got word that the Thessalonians were being confused by false reports being sent to them claiming that they had missed the Rapture and had entered the Day of Christ, the wrath of the Lamb, the Great Tribulation.

    Paul sends another letter to clear up the situation.

 2 Thessalonians 2:1  "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


     The Thessalonians were taught all about the Rapture and what was to follow. Verse 5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" confirms this. They received a false report claiming they had entered the Wrath of the Lamb, which is also called the Day of Christ, which is also called the Great Tribulation. They knew the Rapture was to take place first and assumed they had missed the Rapture. They were told they had entered the Great Tribulation which is the last half of the 70th week of Daniel.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3  "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

     for that day shall not come What day shall not come? The Day of Christ, the Wrath of the Lamb, the Great tribulation. This is the day Paul is focusing on. Paul is focusing on the Day of the Wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. Paul is not talking about the Rapture but the Wrath Of Christ.

     Paul is telling them that the wrath of Christ won't come until the man of sin be revealed (Antichrist). He's assuring them the wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Christ has not come yet.

2 Thessalonians 2:4  "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

      Now Paul tells them Antichrist is to be revealed. We know Antichrist signs the treaty with Israel to start the 70th week of Daniel, 1260 days later he is sitting in the temple claiming to be God. The Wrath of Christ can't begin until Antichrist enters the temple which he will do in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

2 Thessalonians 2:5  "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

    Paul reminds them that he had explained this before, and to beware of false messages supposedly from Paul contradicting what he had already taught them. In other words "Believe what I taught you in the first place, don't believe reports that claim you missed the Rapture and The Day of the Lambs wrath has come, The Day of Wrath can't begin until Antichrist is revealed at the signing of the seven year treaty and in the temple claiming to be God 1260 days later.

2 Thessalonians 2:6  "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
   7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


     Now Paul is telling them that Antichrist is restrained and not revealed until the restrainer is removed. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church. We are restraining Antichrist with the presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling us. At the Rapture the Holy Spirit will stop indwelling men and begin a different ministry of indwelling the two witnesses. When the Church is Raptured, Antichrist will be revealed and not until the Rapture.

     The "falling away" can be taken two ways, back sliding, and removal. I plan on falling away from earth to meet the Lord in the air.

2 Thessalonians 2:9   "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
   10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
"

     Antichrist is part of Gods judgment. A part of the wrath of the Lamb is allowing Antichrist to perform miracles for 42 months, the last half of Daniels 70th week. When God is sending delusions to believe lies your in the wrath of the Lamb.

     Summing it up, the Rapture is the focal point of
1 Thessalonians. The day of Christ, wrath of the Lamb, Great Tribulation is the focal point of 2 Thessalonians.

                                           The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2
   

    For the record, I was not instructed by a 15 year old Catholic Girl from Scotland. The Holy Spirit is my guide. The Holy Spirit reveals truth and lies to me. I use the Bible as final authority, I do not trust men but I test them against the Bible.

                                                       Paul2

Just to set the record straight on Margaret McDonald -
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html

prophecyjax1,
I don;t believe you have yet distinquished between the last trump by the seventh angel in Rev. and the trump or God in Thessalonians. You are hanging your mid-trib position on these trumpets and they are not the same!!!

My Friends,

The Apostle Paul clearly was telling the Thessalonians NOT to expect Christ to come any day. How much clearer can it be? I understand the scriptures about the church age, and your point of view, but we MUST palce those verses with all the other verses to conclude anything. "Precept must be upon precept, line upon line, here a verse, and there a verse." Read Isaiah 28:9-13 on proper dividing the Word of God. I respect your efforts, but you are totally not listening to Paul.

The score is not you against me, or me against you, but Scripture vs tradition.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul says with “the trump of God,” and also clarifies which trumpet it is, as we will see. The dead in Christ will rise first, then all believers alive on earth, will be caught up in the clouds with the Lord. This is Christ’s secret appearing as some call it. This is when Christ comes for His saints, and 3½ years later Christ will come with His saints! We should clearly see by now, the difference.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

We will return WITH Jesus at His second coming, clothed in fine linen, clean and white. As we discussed preciously, those in white are the saints that came out of tribulation. The Apostle Paul mentioned in I Thessalonians 5:2, that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. Some use this as a presumption, claiming for this to be valid; that the Lord can appear at any moment. However, as we are beginning to see, and have learned prior, that we must take this verse and combine it with dozens of other verses, to conclude that. We believe the Thessalonian Church may have believed this, and when Paul wrote them back in II Thessalonians, he clarified the mis-conception. When Paul wrote them back, he revealed to them that certain things must happen first, BEFORE the Rapture, as we will show. Let’s look at II Thessalonians 2:1-3 and dissect each verse for clarity.

 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

It’s very clear here, that Paul starts out by talking about the Rapture, the coming of the Lord, when we are gathered together in the clouds to meet him.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He goes on to say, not to be shaken, troubled, or confused thinking the day of Christ is at hand. Evidently there was word of an imminent return of Christ, either by his previous letter, or by others.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul says not to let anyone deceive you or tell you otherwise, because the Rapture cannot take place until there is a falling away first, AND, the man of sin be revealed. The keyword here is REVEALED! Revealed means “to make known,” or to “unveil;” “to make known something previously concealed or secret.” Scripture teaches us that the first 3½ years of the tribulation the Antichrist’s true identity will be hidden and kept unveiled. Although many believers will discern him, and know who he is, the prophetic unveiling, will not occur until the middle of the seven-year period. In the “midst” or the middle of the seven-year tribulation, the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel and show his true colors. This is when he is revealed. The Rapture cannot take place until this unveiling takes place, as Paul clarifies. To say the Antichrist is revealed, or unveiled at the beginning of the seven-year period, is not according to the Biblical unveiling as Paul continues to say.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul reveals to us the timing of the revealing! The Antichrist is “revealed” once he sets himself up as God, showing himself to be God. Daniel 9:27 is a little more specific about the true timing of this event.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

As we all may or may not know, the prophetic week of Daniel is the seven-year tribulation period, and in the “midst” or middle of this period, this is the timing of the unveiling of this man of sin. Once this occurs, the Rapture may take place. So we can clearly see the Church is going at least 3½ years into the seven-year period. The Antichrist will stop all temple sacrifices, and actually set himself up in the Jewish Temple and claim to be God. Once this occurs, as another evidence that it’s in the middle of the seven-year period, Daniel 12:11 reveals more specifics about timing.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel says once the Antichrist is revealed, there will be 3½ years left. Excellent clarity and understand is shown, by using scripture upon scripture to “reveal” to us the timing of the Rapture. Daniel 12:11 also shows us that the “revealing” has to be in the middle of the seven-year tribulation, for 1290 days will be left in time. This is clearly the last 3½ years. Now with Paul telling us the Rapture cannot take place “UNTIL” the Antichrist is “Revealed,” it’s obvious, that the Church, and the Rapture is mid-tribulation. Now let’s continue with Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Many claim that the “he” mentioned in verse 7 is the Church, and that once the Church is raptured, then the Antichrist will be revealed. But does this line up with Daniel 9:27 and the letter to the Thessalonians we just discussed? We will let you decide. Even if this was the Church, and we are to agree with this argument, the fact that the Antichrist is not “revealed” until the middle of the seven-year period, still leaves the Church well into the tribulation. So this is a weak argument, which contradicts itself. Paul was not saying two different things in verses 3 and 8. In verse 3, Paul says the man of sin must be revealed first, then the Rapture can come. But many who hold to a pre-tribulation view, claim that verses 7-8 is the Church being raptured, and when the “HE” is removed, the man of sin will then be revealed. This is a contradiction, and thus the “HE” cannot be the Church.  Also, as we previously discussed, the Church is generally referred to as a “she,” rather than a “he.” The “He” could just be God Himself, or His Angels, and He will remove His restraining power when He wishes. Regardless of who the “HE” is, we cannot ignore the fact that the Antichrist’s revealing is in the middle of the seven-year period. You see now, why PRECEPT MUST BE UPON PRECEPT? Many scriptures thus far have been shown as evidence that the Church will be raptured well into the tribulation, without yet truly revealing the most striking evidence for such a case.

Ok Old Timer-let's expalin the last trump...

Are you ready for the final revelation of the timing of the Rapture? Well, it’s so simple and revealed in scripture, that it does not take a rocket scientist to accept this simple truth. The Apostle Paul tells us in scripture, that the Rapture will occur, “at the last trump.”

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This almost seems too simple, and it is! The Rapture will occur “at the last trump,” which is the last trumpet out of the seven, in Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15. Now I’ve heard some ask the question, how do we know this last trumpet, is the last trumpet of Revelation chapter 11? We will explain and show exactly from scripture what Paul was referring to by the “last trump.” The word “last” is obviously the last in sequence. If you have 7 people in a straight line, and ask the last person to come forward, which one of the seven will it be? Of coarse the 7th person in line will come forward. Just as there are seven trumpets in the book of Revelation, the last trump, will be the 7th. This is the only sequence of trumpets in the entire Bible, so as not to confuse any other trumpets. Some have even said that this “last trump,” could not be the same trumpet in Revelation that Paul is referring to, because, quote, “That is not Paul’s last trump, because that’s an angelic trump, not the trump of God.” Whether God Himself blows the trumpet, or an Angel, it’s still the “last trump.” That’s reasoning, rather than Biblical interpretation, using precept upon precept. The sequence of trumpets starts in revelation 8:7 and concludes in Revelation 11:15. Just because it’s so simple to understand and so plainly laid out by Paul, does not mean it’s not a reality, or a fact.

Some mistake the last trump to be the same trumpet blown at the actually second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:31. But if this were the case, we would have already been raptured, because Matthew 24:29-31 is clearly referring to the literal second coming of Christ WITH HIS SAINTS, not for them.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This trump of God, is the last trump of I Corinthians 15:52, and not to be confused with the “great sound of a trumpet” in Matthew 24:29-31, when Jesus comes back to earth near the time of Armageddon. The “last trump” will sound 3½ years prior to the “great sound of a trumpet” when Jesus comes back with His saints.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is a clear distinction between these two events, for at this trumpet, “all the tribes of the earth shall see Jesus and mourn, and see Him coming.” At the Rapture, only the Bride will see Him and be taken up into the clouds to meet Him in the air. There is clearly a difference in these trumpets. We need to make sure we look at the context of these verses, and use scripture upon scripture. Thus we conclude that this, “great sounding of a trumpet,” or “great trump,” is not the same as the “last trump” of Revelation 11:15, where the Rapture takes place. Remember Zechariah 12:9-14? …”And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for him…..In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem….and all the land shall mourn, every family apart….all the families that remain, every family apart…” This is exactly what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24:30, when He says, “…and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn..” This great trumpet is not the last trumpet of the Rapture, but rather the trumpet to be blown to announce Christ’s arrival upon the earth. Also notice Matthew 24:31, that when this trumpet blows, God’s elect will be gathered “from one end of heaven to the other,” not the gathering of saints from the earth in the Rapture.

Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall gotcha76 from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
Isaiah 27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

At the “great trumpet,” many Jews that would have been killed by the Antichrist will be saved and delivered just in time. What a beautiful revelation the scriptures give us!

Now we are ready to put the final nail in the coffin, for a pre-tribulation Rapture. Take special note of the following verses.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Notice that when the seventh Angel is about to blow the last trumpet, that it says, “the mystery of God should be finished.” This mystery Paul was talking about is the mystery of the relationship between Christ and His Bride. It’s also referring to the Church age we are now living in. Once the last trumpet sounds, the Bride will be raptured, and the Church age, as we know it, will be over. Remember I Corinthians 15:50-52? Before Paul tells us the Rapture is at the “last trump,” he says, “Behold, I shew you a mystery..” The same word “mystery” is used in conjunction with Revelation 10:7, and the last trump. Here’s another golden nugget to add to this “mystery.”

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

The word “mystery “ is used again. When we place all the scriptures together on this great subject, a clearer picture can be seen. Once the trump sounds in Revelation 11:15, the mystery of God will be finished, and the Church age as we know it will cease. The only way this mystery can be finished, is if the Church is now no-where to be found.

Yours,

Michael

Seems to me the last trump is indeed the last trumpet in Revelation, what else can it be?

P>jax>1

You have not addressed the traditions.  

The Jew's had customs and the church is living out some of them.

Why won't you address these?  Is it because you cannot get around them?  You have no way to refute them?

Early,

Tradition has nothing to do with a mid-tribultion Rapture, but has everthing to do with a pre-trib theory. With that said, the only traditional Church teaching we should hold to, is that which is contained in scripture.

 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

The fact of tradition rests upon a 15 year old catholic girl who had a vision of the church being taken out of the world before the tribulation in 1830. Then Irving picked up on it, and John Darby, then Scofield in 1909. That is the church tradition.

If we look at Church history, a pre-tribulation Rapture is much more recent than a mid-tribulation view. American Evangelicals met at various conferences dating back from 1875-1909, to discuss the timing of the Rapture. The Niagara Bible Conference met back in 1875, and the primary view was a mid-tribulation Rapture that most held, among clergy. The mid-tribulation view, as far as history goes, dates back to the 1690’s, not to mention as far back as the Apostle Paul. During these conferences there was a slow shift towards a pre-tribulation Rapture, and we will show you the source of this shift and give the references. From 1909-1952, pre-tribulation teaching gained more ground over the mid-tribulation view, and from 1952 to our present day, pre-tribulation and post-tribulation are pre-dominant. (“The Rapture,” Zondervan 1984,  pp11-12) A mid-tribulation Rapture, is according to history the oldest know view held by the Church of Jesus Christ. We should not however, consider who held which view, based on history, of importance, in comparison to the Holy Scriptures. But the actual research done by others as to the driving source of the pre-tribulation Rapture, is of interesting note, and worthy of bringing to light.

However, you need to ask yourself an honest question. Does the scripture take the preeminence, over what you may have been taught elsewhere, or do you have pre-suppositions on this doctrine? The most important thing is that you do believe and proclaim, that there is a Rapture. My only concern would be, as a minister myself, the issue of credibility. If we are telling and assuring people that we need not concern ourselves “with that,” because we will not be here, and then it happens, will we lose some credibility? If it was important enough for the Apostle Paul to clarify it to the Thessalonians, is it not important for us to do the same? It’s also of worthy note, that many prophets and teachers of God’s Word and message in the past, often proclaimed coming hard times, that others did not. Something to ponder.

Yours,

Michael

Friends,

The prophets of old always warned about evil and judgment to come. In some cases, there were promises of deliverance also. When Ezekiel predicted judgment to come, most of the hearers of his message, said ..”The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off” (Ezekiel 12:27). In other words, it really does not apply for us, for we won’t be here. Sound familiar?

Yours,

Michael

Score:

Bible Evidence:   60

Ok, prophecyjax1, let’s see if I have this straight.

I don’t have to expect Christ to return until I see the 4 horseman ride forth, I don’t have to expect Him at any moment until I see a great earthquake and the sun become black as sackcloth and the moon become as blood. I can disregard His warning to watch and His telling me that I know not the hour of His coming because I must wait until I see stars of heaven fall to earth and the heaven roll up as a scroll.

His warning that He comes as a thief in the night is wrong because after the above “wrath” I know that the seventh angel has not yet sounded. No, there is still some more of God’s fury to experience before the Rapture.  Hail and fire drop from heaven and 1/3 of the trees burn up,  a great mountain falls in the sea and it becomes as blood. I know He is coming now, right?

Nope not yet, it seems that all those passages that say we will be spared God’s wrath are just a tease, God playing around with His Church. Next the rivers become wormwood (poison, I guess) and the moon and stars don’t shine like they used to. I think I may suspect that something is up and the Lord is a bit angry. Perhaps now I should start to look for Him?    No, you tell me, not quite.

Now the bottomless pit is open and up pops a few locust and they torment everyone for five months. Boy, now I have a real clue that something is about to happen. Just note the day the locust appear and wait five more months. All that stuff about being told to expect Him at any time is just myth and fable. You have provided me with the real scoop on this last trumpet business. I am counting the last five months after seeing the locust.

Five month past, I watch the and listen for the sixth trump, yep here is goes, one third of the entire population dies. Here comes that army of 200 million and there is a lot more people being killed. Only one more thing to expect before my Lord returns. seven thunders. You probably have that figured out also? Now that that’s over I can expect to be Raptured.

Those seven verses that I quoted in my first post that say we will be spared God’s wrath, all hogwash – don’t really mean what they say. All that prophecy from Jesus about coming when it was like the days of Noah; eating and drinking and going about business as usual; and all that stuff about “thief in the night”, just to fool us poor misguided Christian until you came along with the true interpretation. Wow, look at that score, 60 to nothing!  No chance at all you are wrong and Jesus is right.

     Prophecyjax1,

    Did you read anything I posted? If you did it seems you chose to ignore me.

    I would like to ask a question and get an answer.

    Who was speaking to John in Revelation 4:1? You claimed before that it was "an angel" and I clearly showed it was the Lord Jesus.

    Have you realized your mistake yet or are you sticking with the wrong answer? I need to know where you stand on this issue first. I'm awaiting an answer ....

    One more question for now, would you please give your view of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. When do they begin their 1260 days of prophesizing? When does Antichrist kill them? Why are they the two candlesticks before the Lord on earth? I've given you the answers a few posts back but you seem to ignore my posts. Somehow I doubt you'll agree with me so I'd like your explaination to understand your theory.

     It seems to me your whole theory is centered around the Seventh trumpet. The Seven trumpets are trumpets of judgment blown by angels.

    At the fifth trumpet, Satan is thrown to earth. We learn from Chapter 12 of Revelation that the "woman" Israel fled to the wilderness for 1260 days to be protected from Satan.

Revelation 12:6: And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
   8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
   9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

      This is the middle of Daniel's 70th week.

 Revelation 12:12  "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
   13: And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
   14: And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

      It is clear if you take the 30 seconds to read the above verses you will see that Satan is thrown from Heaven to earth at the middle of Daniel's 70th week at the 5th trumpet mind you.

     Look at versr 12 again... Woe to the inhabiters of the earth.

 Revelation 12:12  "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    We haven't gotten to the seven trumpet yet but God is saying woe to the earth, wrath has come.

    The seventh trumpet signals the END of the Great Tribulation.

    I'll let you in on a secret, The seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bowls of wrath are given in chronological order. The effect these judgments trigger are not in chronological order. The seventh trumpet signals the end of the Great Tribulation. The seven bowls of wrath are poured out after the sounding of the seventh trumpet, yes, but the effects are taking place during the second half of Daniel's 70th week. The wrath of the Lamb is triggered by the sixth seal, but the effects take place midweek.

                                           The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2


   




   

There will definitely be a pre-tribulation Rapture.  The Lord will call Christians home before the Tribulation begins. Here are some verses that would be good for you to look up: I Thessalonians 4:16,17, I Corinthians 15:51,52 and Revelation 3:10.  The book of Revelation was written chronologically.  Revelation 1:19 says:  “Write the things which thou hast seen, the things which are and the things which shall be hereafter” (past, present and future).  Chapter 1 speaks of the past and chapters 2 and 3 speak of the present.  Time wise, we are approximately at Revelation 3:15,16 and 17—the cold, lukewarm, lackadaisical Laodicean church.  The future is shown in chapters 4-22.

 

The next event is Revelation 4:1 where John says: “After this I looked, and behold the door was open and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither…” This is the Rapture.   Some people think this passage is speaking only to John but if you read ahead you will see that verses 10 and 11 talk about the 24 elders casting their crowns before the throne.  This scene must take place after the Judgment Seat of Christ in order for the 24 elders to have crowns to cast at Jesus feet.  The Judgment Seat of Christ cannot take place unless all Christians are present.  This would mean that the Rapture has taken place.

 

The next event in Revelation, after the Rapture, is chapter 6, which is the Tribulation.  Since chapter 4 comes before chapter 6 (the Tribulation) then we must conclude that the Rapture does take place before the Tribulation.

 This was sent to me by Jack VanImpe.

 

I do not give a hoot about Catholic traditions even if they are 15, 20, 25, 30, or even 200 years old.  I want to talk about jewish customs and traditions

    BronzeSnake,

    I agree with everything in your last post except on sentence above.

     "Time wise, we are approximately at Revelation 3:15,16 and 17—the cold, lukewarm, lackadaisical Laodicean church.  The future is shown in chapters 4-22."

     The above sentence as partially right but something is missing. Philidelphia.

     Philidelphia has the open door in the letter and was promised to be kept from the hour of trial. This is the true church on earth now. Laodicea is a false church on earth now. Somewhere the members have a doctrinal flaw and are not truely saved. All denominations of Churches have Laodicean members. People who belong to a church, are involved doing bake sales but have somehow missed the message of the true Gospel.

    Jehohah's Witnesses, Mormons, many Catholics, some protestants, the cults and "isms" that use Jesus name but don't belong to Him are part of the Laodicean Church of today.

    This church is luke warm and will be vomited out of the Body of Christ at the Rapture because it couldn't be digested into the body of Christ. There are no saved members of this group represented by the Church of Laodicea. If they find the truth of the Gospel and believe it they become members of the Church of Philidelphia and will be Raptured.

    In Jesus' letter to the Church of Laodicea (I say Jesus' letter because he was using John only as a scribe and witnesses, the testamony was from Jesus) Jesus said behold, I stand at the door and knock! Jesus is outside this Church knocking on the door asking to be let in.

    The Holy Spirit bares witness against this church for its members are not Saved. Anyone who opens the door will be placed in Philidelphia and sup with Christ at the wedding feast.

     I've never heard what I'm about to write discussed before.
Its my own personal "theory". I could be wrong and I'm making that perfectly clear before I start.

    I wonder if the Church of Laodicea also represents all who have claimed to be Christian through out the whole Church age but were never really Saved. I'm starting to consider the possibility that Laodicea represents the Apostate Church of the ages as well as the present time. My theory, could be wrong. picking up where I left off...

   There is a format to the seven letters with two exception I'll make note of. Each letter starts off mentioning a certain characteristic of the vision in Chapter 1.

    Then Christ gives first words of Commendation, followed by words of Condemnation.

    The exceptions are Smyrna which prophetically represents the Martyr Church from 100a.d. to 314a.d apr. to the martyr Church of Smyrna there are no words of condemnation. They were dying for Christ, why should he scold them?

    The Church of Philidelphia is the Church that got the word of God out and receives no words of condemnation. This true Church has been promised to be removed from the hour of trial to come on the earth and be Raptured through the open door of Heaven.

    Theres one more exception in the letter to Philidelphia.
I've never heard it mentioned before by anyone. Remember I said that each letter mentioned part of the chapter 1 vision?

  to be continued on the next post

                                           The Pre-Trib.View by Paul2

      I left off here: Take the three minutes and read this, you won't be wasting you time!


    Take a look at this, first lets see what the vision of chapter one says:

Revelation 1:18   "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Now look at the letter to Philidelphia:

Revelation 3:7: And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
   8: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

      All the letters to the seven Churches mention some aspect of Christ from the vision of chapter 1, but Philidelphia's is different. Do you see it yet?

     I'll show it to you:

In the vision of chapter 1 notice the words in bold print.

Revelation 1:18  " I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Now notice what the letter to Philidelphia says


7: And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

     The keys of hell and death are not mentioned in Philidelphia's letter. Instead the key of David is mentioned but wasn't mentioed in the vision of chapter 1.

     It seems that Jesus now holds the key of David, which must open the door of Heaven and allow the Rapture to take place. Jesus isn't ready to use the keys of hell and death at the present time which the letters represent, the Church period. The key Jesus NOW holds in His hand is the key to the open door in Heaven being placed before us at the Rapture.

    When the Rapture takes place the door will be shut and locked again. Theres only one time the door will be open, if you miss His call at the Rapture, there won't be a second call.

    Jesus is judging His church in the seven letters and is holding the key of David Now just as he judges His church now. Judgment for the church continues until the Rapture. Laodicea is vomited out of the body of Christ at the Rapture.

     Jesus holds in His hand now, the key of David. Why?
Because He is going to unlock the door of Heaven and Rapture His Church. He doesn't need the keys to hell and death for over a thousand years. The key of David is in His hand Now, the Rapture is imminant.

    I  should be writing a book!

    I'm joking, I don't have nearly enough knowledge and my writing skills and spelling are horrible and I'm not arrigant enough to claim I have all the answers. I have enough answers to have realized that the Bible teaches Pre-Tribulation Rapture, but I find more evidence all the time.

     Let me know what you think, anybody interested?

                                        The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 8)

                             

Hi Paul2.
Thanks for the commentary, I like it.
However, I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say...

" When the Rapture takes place the door will be shut and locked again. Theres only one time the door will be open, if you miss His call at the Rapture, there won't be a second call."

 After the Rapture there will be many left behind who will realize their mistake and become true believers; Those who refuse to worship the beast or accept his mark, and are beheaded for the witness of Jesus.

 Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Paul and Bronze,

Yes I am reading your posts, and apprecaite your honest answers. You have shown a good spirit, and honest debate, and have respect for your views. However, you keep mentioning God's wrath, and I agree we are delivered from it, which does not even start till Rev 16:1.

Also the last trump actually sounds in Rev 11:15. The burden of proof lies with you to dis-prove that, and you just make statements claiming it is not, yet scripture does not back it up.

Plus you miss Acts 3:19-21.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

God the Father will not send Jesus Christ back UNTIL the times of restitution, or restoration of all things. The Greek word for restitution in Acts 3:21 is “apokatastasis,” taken from “apokathistemi,” which means, “RESTORE AGAIN!”  Jesus will return when the Church is fully “restored again.” This restoration will be during the first 3½ years of the tribulation, as Christ is preparing His Bride for the Rapture. A lot of repenting and purging will be going on, and many conversions.

Elijah must first come, and the two witnesses of Rev 11 will preach the first 3 1/2 yrs to the church and be raptured in chapeter 11, same time as the Church. And the Woman in Rev 12 is the Church.

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Notice, “Her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.”  The Bride of Christ, is shown raptured here, and to rule all nations with Christ. This cannot be Israel, because Israel, and the twelve tribes are ruled over, not the ones ruling. Only the Bride “will rule and reign a thousand years with Christ” (Revelation 2:26-27, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalm 2:8-10, Psalm 149:6-9, Luke 22:28-30, and Matthew 19:28). Let’s clarify something here, before we conclude that Revelation chapter 12 is not talking about the Jews or Israel. Israel is mentioned in the entire Bible 2301 times, and only 3 of those references are in the book of Revelation. Revelation 2:14 mentions Balaam, who taught Balac how to cause Israel to stumble. In Revelation 7:4, the 144,000 Jews are saved, and in Revelation 21:12, it’s referring to the names of the twelve tribes of Israel in heaven. Nowhere else in the book of Revelation is Israel referred to. The Jews are mentioned 244 times in the entire Bible and only mentioned twice in Revelation. The two references in chapters 2 and 3, Christ was referring to false Jews. Nowhere else in Revelation are the Jews referred to. However with that said, look at some of the following references in the book of Revelation.

1)   The Saints          13 times
2)   The Church               7 times
3)   The Churches         12 times
4)   The Brethren             4 times
5)   Servants                      10 times
6)   The Bride                          4 times
7)   The Lambs Wife                       2 times
8)   Those in White Robes        4 times
9)   Those in White Linen        2 times
10)   Everlasting Gospel                    1 time
11)   Prophets                        8 times
12)   Jesus             12 times
13)   The Lamb of God                    27 times

Compare these references to the fact that the Jews and the Nation of Israel are not specifically referred to one time in Revelation. Also mark the words of Jesus in Revelation 22:16; “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.” Still think the Church is not mentioned or somehow involved in the book of Revelation? According to these references, it sure looks like a lot of saints from the Church will be around, along with the two prophets of Revelation 11:3-13. And so will the Everlasting Gospel with God’s end-time message, which must also first be preached.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

God’s two prophets of Revelation 11:3-13 will have a world wide piercing message to proclaim for the entire world via satellite television. God will raise up Prophets, Teachers, Ministers, Evangelists, Pastors, Men of God, and Saints to team up with these two men for one last message of hope for the world. It will be a unified message with one voice, one faith, one mind, one vision, one Church, and total unison. Even Angels themselves will assist in this end time Gospel Message. We believe when “this gospel” has reached the world, THEN the end shall come. That’s not to say the Gospel is not being preached worldwide today, because it is. However, millions have still not been reached, and God will see to it that every soul has a chance to hear it before the end comes. This “Everlasting Gospel” will be a message of Repentance, Restoration, the Fear of God, and a final warning to the masses of this world.

Yours,

Michael

Guess it's just too plain and simple for us to realize the Apostle Paul said we shall be raptured "at the last trump." I cor 15:52. Knowing this trump is not the same as the "great trump" in Matt 24, because that's the literal second coming of Christ when all the earth shall see him and mourn. (Zechariah.)

The burden of proof lies with you to prove this is not the last trump of Rev 11:15, other than just claiming it is not. Evidence must come from your Holy Bible, not some preacher like Jack van Impe. You possiblt cannot show by SCRIPTURE that this "last trump" is any other trumpet than the last of the seven trumpets. Clearly a different timing when Christ comes back with his saints at the "great trumpet" of Matt 24. We are already raptured by then and prepared to come back with Him.

Yours,

Michael

Score:

Bible Evidence:     75
pre-trib theory       0

Guys,

I'm sorry, but the pre-trib rapture is a devised fable concerning the coming of our Lord.

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Wherever knowledge is held at a discount, ignorance becomes a premium, then fables can easily make their way in. Proper dividing of the Word will be a good defense against man’s traditional teaching verses the scriptures.

BTW, I used to preach pre-trib years ago, until the Holy Ghost showed me the "last trump" in I Cor 15:52. I set out to find this last trump, and clearly Rev 10:7 and Rev 11:15 is it.

Yours,

Michael

This is the score you show:

Bible Evidence:    75
pre-trib theory      0


But I went and checked and the real score is:

Your Evidence:    75
pre-trib Bible      316


Just because you do not accept the score does not make it any less, just like the Pre-trib Rapture.  Just because your understanding is tweaked does not make your understanding real.  U have seen the proof and yet deny the same proof.  your view being wrong, but you believing it makes it real in your own eyes and your followers

Ok, someone tell me where is the last trump of I Cor15:52?

And don't use Matthew 24, because it's the second coming of Christ with His saints to earth, everyone knows this.

Where is the last trump and use scripture only.

That's your challenge.

Michael

    BronzeSnake,

     Let me be more specific. When I said the door would be locked again I meant to convey there is no second or third Rapture. Some have a theory that there are different stages or Raptures. There is only one.

     Further more after the Rapture the Church is complete. No more souls will be added to the unique group of believers known as the Bride of Christ, the church. Multitudes will become "Saints" after the Rapture but the difference is they will not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Saints of the Tribulation will be led by the Holy Spirit just like the Saints of the Old Testament were led by the Holy Spirit but not indwelt.

    People who miss the Rapture lose the chance to be the Bride of Christ, they become friends of the Bride Groom but not His Wife. The Church is taken to the Bema Judgment Seat for our rewards at the Rapture. We are going to a seven year long wedding week.

     Many people who don't believe in God but have heard about the Rapture try to say when they see it they will believe it, and won't take the mark of the beast and would be beheaded because then they would know its true. Point is they could never be part of the Church after the Rapture. They would have to settle for Saint.

     I believe Saints will be indwelt with the Holy Spirit at some point after Christ returns at the second coming to establish His kingdom, but during the Tribulation I do not believe Saints will be Indwelt.

Revelation 20:4   "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    You picked a good verse to make my point. The "Souls" were seen because they hadn't been ressurected into bodies yet. Jesus is returning to earth with His Bride the Church for the Wedding feast and the souls of the martyred tribulation Saints are awaiting ressurection. They didn't receive their bodies immediately after death but had to wait for their ressurrection. They are not the Bride of Christ, the Church.

    At the Rapture the Church is complete and finished and perfected. Miss the Rapture and you'll have to settle for Saint until your beheading and then wait for your body which is not the Bride.

    The Rapture is a one time event.

     I hope that cleared up what I meant.

                                        The pre-Trib. view by Paul2

I've got one for you "score keeper"
First read this...

"Rev 4:10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,  
   
    Rev 4:11   Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

 Revelation is in chronological order. These elders have cast down their crowns at Jesus' feet. Therefore the Judgement seat of Jesus has already taken place, otherwise there would be no crowns for the elders to throw before the throne.

The next event in Revelation, after the Rapture, is chapter 6, which is the Tribulation.  Since chapter 4 comes before chapter 6 (the Tribulation) then we must conclude that the Rapture does take place before the Tribulation.

 You are confusing two seperate events.

first is the Rapture as described below...

    1Th 4:16   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  
   
    1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  
   
    1Th 4:18   Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  

 The next event is when we are given our new heavinly bodies...

    1Cr 15:52   In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  
   
    1Cr 15:53   For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.  
   
    1Cr 15:54   So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  

 So, your challenge is...where do the elders get their crowns from, before the tribulation? Is there a second judgement seat of Jesus?

      The "Woman" of Revelation 12 is Israel. The Man-Child is Jesus Christ. Want me to prove you wrong again? O.K.

    I'll point out that your theory crashes and burns itself.

    You claim the Woman of Revelation 12 is the Church. The Woman is not caught up to the throne of God but goes into the wilderness for 1260 days during the second half of Daniel's 70th week. If the Woman were the Church she should have been caught up with the man child. It seems you consider the Manchild to be the church. But you said the Woman was the Church so how can the Church give birth to itself? It makes no sense.

     Your theory crashed try mine:

    Lets start with this:

Revelation 12:  "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

     Now let the Bible interprete for you:

Genesis 37:9  "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

    This was Josephs dream. Notice how many stars, 11, why? Because Joseph was the 12th Star. The Bible is teaching that the 12 stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel.

     The Woman is Israel, the remnant. She gave birth to the Man-Child Jesus Christ who will rule all nations with a rod of iron. Jesus was Baptized by the Holy spirit which decended like a dove upon him at the "BIRTH" of His ministry. He was caught up to the throne of God 3 years later, MANCHILD.

     The Woman (remnant of Israel) will flee to the wilderness at midweek of Daniel's 70th week. She will remain there until the second coming of Christ to establish His kingdom. She never is Raptured but divinely preserved.

 Revelation 12:17   "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

      The remnant of her seed are the Tribulation Saints converted after the Rapture during the first half of Daniel's 70th week. Mid Tribulation Rapture doesn't allow time for conversion. If the Rapture is midweek, and Antichrist and Satan persecute the remnant of her seed for 1260 days who got converted? Pre-Tribulation Rapture allows 3 1/2 years for the world to be converted before Antichrist beheads believers. Mid Tribulation allows no time for conversion.

    Your theory has crashed and burned. It contradicts itself.
 It contradicts Scripture. The Sun, Moon, and Stars have been shown in Scripture to represent Israel.
Not "Spiritual Israel" but JEWISH ISRAEL.

     The Woman is Israel, the Manchild is Jesus.

    Thats the second time I've proven you wrong with Scripture. Your own theory doesn't work and now I've shown you why.

      I'm winning 2 to 0 on the proven wrong scoreboard.

      You better hold off on the book for a few.

     Its nothing personal, you just hitched your wagon to a lame horse so to speak.

                                  The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 8)

   
    Heres a challenge for you, use scripture only and prove the woman in Revelation 12 is the Church. I can use Scripture only to identify her as Israel.

                                                   Paul2 8)

Paul2.
That "woman & Twelve Stars" post was great!...a knockout punch to "mid-trib"
I have sent you an instant message. e-mail me back if you would.

Paul,

The Man child of Revelation chap 12 is the Bride, I never said it was the Chuch. The Bride comes out of the Church.

Revelation chapter 12 is referring to the Church, not the Jews or Israel. You argue that because Revelation 12:1 says that the woman has upon a head a crown of twelve starts, that this is Israel. But Israel does not give birth to a “man child” (The Bride: Rev 12:5), only the Church does. How can we conclude this? Once again, only the Bride of Christ has the honor of ruling with Jesus for a thousand years, and the Bride comes forth out of the Woman in travail, (the Church), not Israel. Jesus will award “His Saints,” allowing us to be next to His side, with a rod of iron, to help rule over the nations. Jesus said in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:28-30 that the twelve tribes of Israel will be ruled over. Also notice the following verses, which reveal the honor God will give us saints for being faithful.

Psalms 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Psalms 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
Psalms 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
Psalms 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

The saints and faithful brethren from the Church will execute judgment and justice with Jesus during the 1000-year millennium reign. The Bride of Christ will be granted authority over the nations. During the 1000-year reign, the Kingdom of Heaven will be here on earth, there will be cities, nations, governments, and much the same as we see today. The difference will be, that Jesus will be our world dictator, and the governments of the world He will rule! Sounds much better than a dictator like Saddam Hussein, Hitler, or Caesar! The dictatorship of Jesus will be a reign of PEACE!

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Jesus gave a parable concerning this in Luke 19:12-27 and said “Occupy till I come.” In verse 15 “when he was returned, having received the kingdom” (for 1000-years), that all the servants, which represent all of us, should come before Him. One Faithful servant was rewarded by ruling over 10 “CITIES,” and the other 5 “CITIES.”  These faithful servants come from the “woman,” the Church, which gives birth to the Bride.

So we conclude it’s the Church seen in travail during the tribulation. She will be in labor pains, and bring forth a man-child, the Bride of Christ, which is seen raptured in Revelation 12:5.

John 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

Christ was telling His disciples that they were going to have some tribulation, but that it would soon turn to joy. This applies to the end time Church that will be in labor pains during the tribulation, but once she delivers, it will turn to joy. Christ must fully be formed in us before we are counted worthy to be in the Bride, as the Apostle Paul mentions.

Also Jesus was already caught up to God a His ascension in Acts.

Micah 5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

This is a wonderful revelation, taken from brother Micah. This is a prophetic word for Israel, and at the same time, gives light about the Rapture. God will “give them up,” (meaning the veil is over Israel’s eyes), “UNTIL,” She (the Church) hath brought forth (a man child Rev 12:5), which is the Bride of Christ. Once the child is brought forth, and the Bride is raptured, “THEN,” God will deal with the Nation of Israel. God says, “until the time,” and “then.” THIS SHOWS A CLEAR DISTICTION BETWEEN "THEM," ISRAEL, AND "SHE," THE CHURCH.

By proclaiming the Church is to be raptured before the tribulation, is like saying a woman will give birth to her child before she goes into labor pains. Isaiah made this clear in scripture.

Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Isaiah says, “once travail comes, then deliverance.” He says, “Who hath hear such a thing as deliverance first, then travail?” After the Church travails for 3½ years, the Bride will be raptured.

 1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul, you miss two things. 1st that paul tells us in II Thess, that the Antichrist must first be revealed before the Rapture, and 2nd, that the Rapture occurs at the last trump.

You still have not identified the last trump and been able to deal with Paul's exhortation the the Thessalonians about not expecting an immenient return.

Yours,
Michael

Paul,

You still have not dealt with the reality of the Apostle Paul's clear warning.

We will return WITH Jesus at His second coming, clothed in fine linen, clean and white. As we discussed preciously, those in white are the saints that came out of tribulation. The Apostle Paul mentioned in I Thessalonians 5:2, that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. Some use this as a presumption, claiming for this to be valid; that the Lord can appear at any moment. However, as we are beginning to see, and have learned prior, that we must take this verse and combine it with dozens of other verses, to conclude that. Paul Also said in I Thessalonians 5:4, two verses later, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” We believe the Thessalonian Church may have believed an imminent return, and when Paul wrote them back in II Thessalonians, he clarified the mis-conception. When Paul wrote them back, he revealed to them that certain things must happen first, BEFORE the Rapture, as we will show. Let’s look at II Thessalonians 2:1-3 and dissect each verse for clarity.

 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

It’s very clear here, that Paul starts out by talking about the Rapture, the coming of the Lord, when we are gathered together in the clouds to meet him.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He goes on to say, not to be shaken, troubled, or confused thinking the day of Christ is at hand. Evidently there was word of an imminent return of Christ, either by his previous letter, or by others.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul says not to let anyone deceive you or tell you otherwise, because the Rapture cannot take place until there is a falling away first, AND, the man of sin be revealed. The keyword here is REVEALED! Revealed means “to make known,” or to “unveil;” “to make known something previously concealed or secret.” Scripture teaches us that the first 3½ years of the tribulation the Antichrist’s true identity will be hidden and kept unveiled. Although many believers will discern him, and know who he is, the prophetic unveiling, will not occur until the middle of the seven-year period. In the “midst” or the middle of the seven-year tribulation, the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel and show his true colors. This is when he is revealed. The Rapture cannot take place until this unveiling takes place, as Paul clarifies. To say the Antichrist is revealed, or unveiled at the beginning of the seven-year period, is not according to the Biblical unveiling as Paul continues to say.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul reveals to us the timing of the revealing! The Antichrist is “revealed” once he sets himself up as God, showing himself to be God. Daniel 9:27 is a little more specific about the true timing of this event.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

As we all may or may not know, the prophetic week of Daniel is the seven-year tribulation period, and in the “midst” or middle of this period, this is the timing of the unveiling of this man of sin. Once this occurs, the Rapture may take place. So we can clearly see the Church is going at least 3½ years into the seven-year period. The Antichrist will stop all temple sacrifices, and actually set himself up in the Jewish Temple and claim to be God. Once this occurs, as another evidence that it’s in the middle of the seven-year period, Daniel 12:11 reveals more specifics about timing.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel says once the Antichrist is revealed, there will be 3½ years left. Excellent clarity and understand is shown, by using scripture upon scripture to “reveal” to us the timing of the Rapture. Daniel 12:11 also shows us that the “revealing” has to be in the middle of the seven-year tribulation, for 1290 days will be left in time. This is clearly the last 3½ years. Now with Paul telling us the Rapture cannot take place “UNTIL” the Antichrist is “Revealed,” it’s obvious, that the Church, and the Rapture is mid-tribulation. Now let’s continue with Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Many claim that the “he” mentioned in verse 7 is the Church, and that once the Church is raptured, then the Antichrist will be revealed. But does this line up with Daniel 9:27 and the letter to the Thessalonians we just discussed? We will let you decide. Even if this was the Church, and we are to agree with this argument, the fact that the Antichrist is not “revealed” until the middle of the seven-year period, still leaves the Church well into the tribulation. So this is a weak argument, which contradicts itself. Paul was not saying two different things in verses 3 and 8. In verse 3, Paul says the man of sin must be revealed first, then the Rapture can come. But many who hold to a pre-tribulation view, claim that verses 7-8 is the Church being raptured, and when the “HE” is removed, the man of sin will then be revealed. This is a contradiction, and thus the “HE” cannot be the Church.  Also, as we previously discussed, the Church is generally referred to as a “she,” rather than a “he.” The “He” could just be God Himself, or His Angels, and He will remove His restraining power when He wishes. Regardless of who the “HE” is, we cannot ignore the fact that the Antichrist’s revealing is in the middle of the seven-year period.

Just no way to escape this, and no scripture to prove otherwise, that the Antichirst must FIRST be revealed, and the Rapture is at the last trump.

Good luck on that, or better yet, good luck fndng one verse of scripture saying the Rapture does not occur at the last trump, or that the antichirst must be revealed first.

Michael

Paul,

Nothing personal likewise, but I'd rather hitch my wagon to a lame horse, than believe in a vision from a 15 year old catholic girl up on a hill somewhere in 1830.

My wagon may be old, and my horse lame, but at least a mid-tribulation belief lines up with scripture, and not some bean dream by a little girl.

I'm sorry to say, but the pre-trib is a fable, a smooth story for us to want to believe, but all the true prophets in all of histor warned of things to come, when the others mocked, and denied the reality of future events.

Look at Marvin Rosenthal--a sholar who believed pre-trib, till his buddy stated asking serious questions, and he did a 3 year investagation nd changed his view. He realized he'd been dupped into a fable.

Go back to the time BEFORE someone TAUGHT you this, and then read these scriptures without pre-suppoitions, and you will see. I tell you as Paul said, "Let no man deceive you." II Thess 2.

Mike

     Notice I never mention who came up with what theory?

    Its because different people have had different theories since the Church began. All you seem to do is spout "15 year old catholic girl" over and over.

     Forget about "your" theory on where Pre-Trib. Rapture came from and stick to facts. Your the one with the fairy tales.

     Heres something you should know. You said the Woman in Revelation 12 was the Church. People that hold that view are people who believe in "post tribulation Rapture." They use the Woman in the wilderness to justify no Rapture until the 70th week is complete. Trying to use the Church as the Woman doesn't work for Mid. Tribulation Rapture.

    The Bible used the Sun, Moon, and Stars to represent Israel and the twelve tribes in Genesis. God doesn't change the symbols He uses. People with theories change the meanings to suit their theories.

    Once again, Who is the Woman of Revelation 12?

    Apparently you have let someone steal your crown.

                                                         Paul2

[quote author=prophecyjax1
Look at Marvin Rosenthal--a sholar who believed pre-trib, till his buddy stated asking serious questions, and he did a 3 year investagation nd changed his view. He realized he'd been dupped into a fable.

Mike

Marvin Rosenthal, may have changed his view. But he did not change it to a mid-trib view. He changed it to a Pre- Wrath view. Which in my opinion fits perfect with scripture.
I haven't read all the post here and it is hard to just jump into the middle of things.  

Quote from Paul:
Revelation chapter 12 is referring to the Church, not the Jews or Israel. You argue that because Revelation 12:1 says that the woman has upon a head a crown of twelve starts, that this is Israel. But Israel does not give birth to a &#8220;man child&#8221; (The Bride: Rev 12:5), only the Church does. How can we conclude this? Once again, only the Bride of Christ has the honor of ruling with Jesus for a thousand years, and the Bride comes forth out of the Woman in travail, (the Church), not Israel. Jesus will award &#8220;His Saints,&#8221; allowing us to be next to His side, with a rod of iron, to help rule over the nations. Jesus said in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:28-30 that the twelve tribes of Israel will be ruled over. Also notice the following verses, which reveal the honor God will give us saints for being faithful.

In my opinion you are wrong in your interpretation of Revelation 12:5.  And she bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and to His throne.  

This is not speaking of the church as you have said.
This verse speaks of Jesus Christ in His incarnation was of Jewish descent (Matt.1:1; 2 Tim.2:8). Despite Satan's efforts to distroy Israel and the messianic line, Jesus' birth took place as predicted by the prophets (Is. 7:14; 9:6; Mic.5:2).
rod of iron Describes Jesus' cornation as King over the nations of the world (11:15; 19:15; Ps. 2:6-9)
her Child was caught up to God. Christ's ascension is in view (acts 1:9; 2:33; Heb.1:1-3;12:2).

Quote from Paul:
So we conclude it&#8217;s the Church seen in travail during the tribulation. She will be in labor pains, and bring forth a man-child, the Bride of Christ, which is seen raptured in Revelation 12:5.

We have not came to such a conclusion. That is your false interpretation of the scriptures.

After rereading some of the posts I see I Have miss quoted and said that Paul said that chapter 12 of Revelation is the church But It was Prophecyjax1 that Said that.

So I apologize to you Paul :-[

      Thanks, I was just about to quote you and show you it wasn't me who said that but you all ready know now

                                                         Paul2

     Lets deal with the mistakes found in your above post.

   Let me point out what your really saying here. The Woman of Revelation 12 is the Church so you say. The woman (church) gives birth to the ManChild( the Church) which is the Bride (church).

    Thats what it really states above. So according to you the Church (woman) gives birth to the Church (ManChild) which is the Church (Bride).  This makes no sense what so ever but theres more facts to add in.

So according to you the Church (woman) gives birth to the Church (ManChild) which is the Church (Bride). And then the Church (bride) is Raptured which started of as the Church (ManChild), and the Church (woman) goes into the dessert for 1260 days.   Boy oh boy look at all the Churches!!

     We have a Woman Church giving birth to a Manchild Church somehow transforming into a Bride Church being Raptured while the Woman Church goes into the wilderness for 1260 days of the last half of Daniel's 70th week. ???

(in the voice of Jim Carey)  ALL RIGHTY THEN! ;D

   prophecyjax1 quote:
  "You argue that because Revelation 12:1 says that the woman has upon a head a crown of twelve starts, that this is Israel."   Yes I do!
 
   prophecyjax1 quote:
    "But Israel does not give birth to a “man child” (The Bride: Rev 12:5)"  Wrong, Israel Gave Birth to Jesus Christ who is the ManChild.

      You have everybody being the church except Satan, and the funniest part is the Church is not involved in any of this.
 
     See my next post I'll try to make it clear enough for you to see it.

                                         The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 8)

              Revelation 12 De-coded

1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
   2: And she being with child (Jesus) cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
   3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon (Satan), having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
   4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon (Satan) stood before the woman (Israel) which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child (Jesus)as soon as it was born.
   5: And she (Israel) brought forth a man child (Jesus), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child (Jesus) was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
   6: And the woman (Israel) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
   7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Satan); and the dragon fought and his angels,
   8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
   9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
   10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
   11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
   12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
   13: And when the dragon (Satan)saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel)which brought forth the man child (Jesus).
   14: And to the woman (Israel) were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, (3 1/2 years or 1260 days) from the face of the serpent (Satan).
   15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman (Israel), that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
   16: And the earth helped the woman (Israel), and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon (Satan)cast out of his mouth.
   17: And the dragon (Satan)was wroth with the woman (Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (Tribulation Saints), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

                                     The Pre-Trib. view by Paul2 8)
                                      and it makes sense to! 8)

  Revelation 12 De-coded using Prophecyjax1's theory

     The woman can't be the Church because the Woman is Israel. the Man-Child can't be the Church because the Man-Child is Jesus.

     Look what happens when you make the Church the Woman and the Church the Man-Child.

1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman (Church) clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
   2: And she being with child (Church) cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
   3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon (Satan), having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
   4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon (Satan) stood before the woman (Church) which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child (Church)as soon as it was born.
   5: And she (Church) brought forth a man child (Church), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child (Church) was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
   6: And the woman (Church) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
   7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Satan); and the dragon fought and his angels,
   8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
   9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
   10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
   11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
   12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
   13: And when the dragon (Satan)saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (Church)which brought forth the man child (Church).
   14: And to the woman (Church) were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, (3 1/2 years or 1260 days) from the face of the serpent (Satan).
   15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman (Church), that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
   16: And the earth helped the woman (Church), and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon (Satan)cast out of his mouth.
   17: And the dragon (Satan)was wroth with the woman (Church), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (let me guess, Church?), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

     This above explaination is obviously wrong. Can you see it now? See what happens when you put the Church where it doesn't belong?
                                     The Pre-Trib. view by Paul2 8)
                                      and it makes sense to! 8)

Ladies and Gentlemen,  Weeeeeeee Have an up-Dated score.


Standing at the Mid-Trib corner, the one and lonesome Prophecyjax1, coming in with a mild 124 points

And over in the Pre-trib Corner is the tag team Paul2 and his sidekick Bronzesnake, with their towel man Early57. Coming in as a heavyweight, 405 points.


Who will conquer? Pre- or Mid?


Ladies and Gentlemen stay tuned for the exciting details, of course the Rapture could take place and this disscussion will have to be put on hold until eternity pass' away

     Prophecyjax1,

     Your stuck on the last Trump of God. You assume its the seventh trumpet of Revelation but your assuming wrong. The trumpet of God is not blown by an angel or blown by God. God's voice is the trumpet. Don't believe me? well lets let Scripture tell the answer.

     Lets start here and see what we find:

Exodus 19:11   "And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
   12: And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
   13: There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

     Theres the trumpet of God for you but what is it? Lets go further:

 Exodus 19:16  "And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

     Theres "the voice" of God's trumpet and all the people trembled.

Exodus 19:17  "And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
   18: And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
   19: And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

     The trumpet is God's voice. Still not convinced? ok. lets see what Deuteronomy has to say about the same event.

   Deuteronomy  5:22  "These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me."
    23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;
    24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.  
    25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.  
    26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?

     God's voice is that of a trumpet sounding. People were terrified at the trumpet like sound of God's voice. Want more evidence?

Revelation 1:10  " I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
   11: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

    Thats the voice of Christ described how? As a GREAT VOICE, AS OF A TRUMPET! The trumpet of God is His voice!

        The Voice of Jesus heard by John in Revelation 1:10 is the SAME Voice by Jesus again in Revelation 4:1

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. [/b]

Revelation 1:10  " I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
   11: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last


Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.   [/b]

    Can you see it now?

Hint: Look for the words that are bold, red, and glowing!

                                      The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2

Paul,

It's obvious your not even reading my quotes. I say again, the man child is the BRIDE OF CHRIST, NOT THE CHURCH!
The Bride comes out of the church, and the foolish virgins get left behind in the church. (Matthew 25:1-13)

You can quote as many trumpets in the Bible as you want, but you still have not clarified where is the last trump in scripture.

I ask you one question, and hope for an answer. Where is the last trump of I Co 15:52 in he Bible. And don't say Matthew 24, cause everyone knows thats the second coming, unless your post-trib, which I am not.

Please tell us Paul exactly where is the last rump of I Cor 15:52 from scripture. I'm sure you can locate it, for you seem good at finding scriptures. Is it Rev 4:1 or Rev 1:10, you quoted two tere, which one is the last. Be conclusive before you answer. Rev 1:10 "as of a trumpet." Rev 4:1 "as it were of a trumpet." That's gotta be the weakest, most far-fetched argument for a pre-tribulation rapture I've ever heard, while at the same time, you clearly still have not EXACTLY idenitifed the EXACT scripture of where the last trump is.

Also Paul, you do seem to be avoiding II Thessalonians 2:1-5 about the fact that Paul said the Antichrist must first be revealed before the Rapture.

Good Luck.
Michael

prophecyjax...

You have avoided my question.
where do the elders get their crowns from, before the tribulation? The Rapture must have already taken place. All believers must be present for the Judgement Seat Of Jesus to have taken place, which is where the elders got their crowns.

As for II Thessalonians 2:1-5 about the fact that Paul said the Antichrist must first be revealed before the Rapture.

This is further proof for the pre-trib Rapture. Antichrist arrives at the begining of the final seven years. He cuts a false seven year peace deal at that time.

 Read the next verses...

 2Th 2:7   For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.  
   
    2Th 2:8   And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 These two verses clairfy. First we are Raptured.. "taken out of the way" and immediately after that... "and then shall that Wicked be revealed"

 Here's further proof... This is a picture of the Rapture.

     Rev 4:1   After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  
   
    Rev 4:2   And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.

 I know that it's hard to judge a persons attitude when reading responses. I am making it clear right now so there's no mistake...I am not here with a belligerent attitude, or to attack anyone. I am trying to debate with respect toward all. At the same time, I will present my views as thoroughly as possible without being rude.

PJ1  Does a lot of dodging questions.  He still has not disscussed Jewish Customs and Traditions, But tried to replace my question with a Cathloic child who was 15 in 1830.


I must conclude that PJ1 has not studied enough to know the answer and that if we are correct and He answers these important questions he will find that he must take his book out of publication and that comes down to him losing money, but what does the word say about the Love of money and what depth of embarrisment would he have to suffer now for not fully finding the truth before putting his words in place of Gods words?

    Phophecyjax1,

    You claim I've avoided 2 Thessalonians, when in fact, you've ignored my post on the subject, check the date below.

    Prophecyjax1,

    Which part of MYSTERY don't you understand? If God had spelled out the Rapture with all the details in one verse there would be no way for his program to finish the way he wants.

    Everybody would know all about the Rapture and the Antichrist couldn't deceive the world after. Part of Gods wrath is allowing Antichrist to tell the Big Lie and God sends delusions so people believe the lie. Certain information was buried deep so only those who search for the truth will find the truth. Those who expect the truth of God's mysteries to be revealed in one sentance are not going to find the truth. God told John not to write what the seven thunders said because it would be to much information and there by alter God's Plan.

    Tell you what, write your book, if your qualified to write a book, I'll write a book debating your book. I'm not trying to get you to change your mind. I'm trying to show others that you don't have all the right answers.

     Who was speaking to John in Revelation 4:1? you claim an angel, I claim it was Jesus and have posted the proof from Revelation 1:10. You keep ignoring this question, WHY?

    You ignore everything you don't have answers for. I showed you scripture that proved god's voice is that of a trumpet. In Exodus people feared the voice of the trumpet which was God's voice. The Last Trump is God's last call, The trumpet will call "COME UP HERE! Because the trumpet is the voice of Christ. You may not see it, or you may refuse to see it because it proves you wrong but others reading this can see it.

     I'm beating a dead horse debating you, everybody can see it too.

                                       The Pre.Trib. View by Paul2 8)

   
     

prophecyjax1, Michael, I will try to sum up my argument for a pre-tribulation rapture and show why you are wrong in proposing a mid-trib rapture starting at the sounding of the seventh angel.

I had mentioned the seven verses that say we will not experience God’s wrath, Rom 1:18, Rom 5:9, Rom 13:4, Eph 5:6, Col 3:6, 1Th 1:10, 1Th 5:9. You responded by mentioning only one of these verses, 1Th 5:9, in which you tried to twist the meaning of the word “appointed.”  I find it amazing you pick out one of these but fail to mention any of the others. The fact that there are seven of them should suggest something to you. Rom 5:9  “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”


You claim the wrath of God starts with the sounding of the seventh angel. You are wrong. Rev 6: 16-17 “…For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” This is after the opening of the sixth seal before any of the angels have sounded. In Rev 15:1  “And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.” This is the conclusion of God’s wrath starting with the sounding of the first angel, not the sounding of the seventh.

You really place you entire thesis on just two verses: 1 Cor. 15:52 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Let’s take the Corinthian verse first:
You equate the “last trump” to the sounding of the seventh angel but John does not call it that. He says “the seventh angel sounded.” That these are trumpets sounded by angels and not the trump of God mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:52 makes no impression on you. When I pointed out the verse in Rev. 4: 1 that the trump of God calls John up, you scoff and seem amused. That the 24 Elders, mentioned immediately after the “calling up” cast their crowns before Christ seems to pass you by. You are unable to see the Church in these 24 Elders. I have done a search of the book of Revelation. The trump of God mentioned in 4:1 is the last trump sounded by God in the Bible.
2 Thes 2:3 is a verse that receives various interpretations by commentators. I think it best to let the Bible do its own interpretation, but keep in mind that Paul was a Jew, trained in Jewish scholarship. The verses:
2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The explaining verses:

Gen 49:10  The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be].

Isa 54:7  For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

Jer 23:3  And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Jer 31:6  For there shall be a day, [that] the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.

Mic 4:2  And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


This “gathering” in 2 Thes. Appears to refer to the final coming of Christ when “all the tribes of the earth…shall see the Son of man coming…” It has nothing to do with the Rapture either pre, mid, or post tribulation.

Michael, I wonder if you are aware of where this concentration on a mid-trib rapture has led you? You have misstated the Word of God by claiming He is not able to come until certain other events take place. The Bible clearly teaches otherwise. You have a misunderstanding of the women in chapter 12 of Revelation. You seem to have a misunderstanding of many OT prophecies. While you are certainly free to think what you wish I hope you will not try to teach this false belief in your church or by publication in a book.

Friends,

Let me re-phrase the question for the third time.

WHERE EXACTLY IN the Book of REVELEATION is the last trump of I Cor 15:52?

Paul, II Thess 2:1-5. The key word is revealed. The Antichrist is truly not revealed until the "midst" of the seventh week. (Daniel 9:27.) Even if the "he" who hindereth is the Church, that still leaves the Church well into the tribulation.

Let's just deal with the last trump, and II Thess 2:1-8. We are going to get to the bottom of this. I'm asking a direct question! Where exactly in the book of Revelation is the last trump of I Cor 15:52 and I Thess 4:16. Please don't say the Lord forgot to place it there. ONE VERSE! WHERE? Not two, three, four or more verses, the EXACT VERSE! No confusion here, be specific and show the one exact verse where it is.

Michael

P.S. let's keep a good spirit and avoid any slander. Our salvation is not depending upon pre, mid, or post trib. Let's focus only on last trump and II Thess. Let's resolve any confusion.

prophecyjax1 asked: "WHERE EXACTLY IN the Book of REVELEATION is the last trump of I Cor 15:52?"

You have been told this over and Over and OVER!

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

We can't help it if you don't believe it or can't acccept it. As I stated in my previous post...Do you read the post?...
The trump of God mentioned in Rev. 4:1 is the last trump sounded by God in the Bible.

Rev 4:1 is not the last trumpet in the book of Revelation, nor is it the rapture, that's silly. John 4:1 is talking to John, read the context.

Rev 8:13, 9:14, Rev 10:7, and finally the last trump of God in Rev 11:15.

Rev chap 11 is where the lst trumpet sounds, becasue it' the lat of the seven. Even if rev 4:1 was a trumpet, which it says  "as it were a trumpet," tere are still more trumpets to sound.

Anyhow, there is still no biblical evidence that prves a pre-trib theory.

Also II Thess 4:1-8 tells us Antichrit muct first be revealed.

Michael

prophecyjax...

And the elders got their crowns from????

Prophecyjax1

Should'nt you just change your name to I_Ignore_Questions2

Paul2, Bronzesnake, Early 57, I think to go on with this is futile. prophecyjax1 keeps asking the same questions and keeps putting forth the same arguments. In my recent lengthy post I responded to both his favorite verses in 1 Cor. and 2 Thes., yet he did not reply to my comments but just asks the questions again. Now if he will not accept my comment that is fine but I would think he could at least point out where I am wrong.

Of course, he as been clever and put us all on the defensive but seems to ignore our questions. For example, the crowns cast by the Elders.

prophecyjax1, one last question and then I am abandoning this thread: How do you reconcile your mid-triib theory that postulates the Rapture in the middle of the seven-year tribulation period (when even the dullest should be expecting His return) as that is in complete contradiction to the many statements of Christ that He will come when least suspected, unawares, as “a thief in the night”, when folks are going about their life as normal? We are to "watch" and be ready expecting Him at any moment. You say it can't happen for at least 3 1/2 years from today assuming the tribulations starts now. Please explain this major flaw in your position?

Hello oldtimer.

Yes, I agree with you prophecyjax1 does ignore the tough questions. I think it would break his heart to have to start that book of his all over!
 Just how old of an old timer are ya...oldtimer? ;)

Bronzesnake, you ask, "Just how old of an old timer are ya...oldtimer? "

71, and the 2nd law of thrmodynamics is taking over ;)

 That is funny!! I just lost half a mouthful of pop out of my nose! ;D

Prophecyjax1,

    My computer keeps crashing, it took a while to fix

   Who was Calling John to Heaven in Revelation 4:1?

   Hint: see Revelation 1:10

  You said before it was an angel and you were proven wrong by scripture. It was Jesus. Are you sticking with the wrong answer?

   I'll take "no reply" to be a "yes, I'm sticking with the wrong answer of an angel.

     You never fooled me but the saying still applies:

  " Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me"

                                                    Paul2 8)

Paul,

It was Jesus, but this is clearly not the Rapture, or the last trump of I Cor 15:52, which actually blows in Rev 11:15.

Some argue as you do, that the Church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter four, and thus we will not be here. Remember Paul, if we don’t take all scripture relating to any subject, we will not understand! Well, you cannot just take a few verses and come to a conclusion. We are going to show you, that the Church is mentioned in Revelation, and displayed frequently throughout the book. We know that saints come from the Church, from I Corinthians 1:1-2. Just because the word “Church” is not mentioned does not mean the Church will not be there. God is not even mentioned in the books of Esther and Song of Solomon. Does that mean God is not there, or in action in those books? Of coarse not. The Church is not mentioned as “the Church” in the books of Titus, II Timothy, II Peter, I John, II John, and Jude, but we know it’s written to the Church. So to say the Church is not mentioned after revelation chapter four, is a very weak argument. Besides, the Church IS spoken of after chapter four.

Just becase Jesus in Revelation 4:1 where He says to John, “Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must be hereafter,” does not justify claiming this is the Rapture. This also is a very weak argument, for clearly the angel or Jesus was talking specifically to John, not to the entire Church, which Jesus Himself applies to the book of Revelation. It’s quite amazing how pre-suppositions, to a pre-tribulation Rapture, can make some folks take a few scriptures clearly referring to something else, and attempt to apply them to justify a pre-trib Rapture. Despite what we WANT to believe, Jesus applies the book of Revelation to the Churches.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

JESUS---tells us these things in Revelation re for "the Churches."

Jesus is coming alright----------at the last trump in Revelation 11:15. This "mystery" is revealed. Rev 10:7

Mike

Hi Jax
I was on this board a while back. Used a different name then.Can you tell me how many brides of Christ there are? Hope ya dont mind me using only the last part of your name.I dont mind if ya just call me a wreck.

Wreck,

There is only one Bride of Christ, which comes forth out of the Church. Those left behind, are likened unto the foolish virgins that were not prepared. Read Revelation chapter 12.

The whole entire Church doe not go in the Rapture, only the Bride. Just as Adam (which is a type of the Church) was asleep and a bride came forth out of his rib, so is the Bride of Christ, a holy rib, remnant is Raptured from out of the Church.

Mke

I repeat my question, asked at the top of Page 7:

prophecyjax1,  How do you reconcile your mid-triib theory that postulates the Rapture in the middle of the seven-year tribulation period (when even the dullest should be expecting His return) as that is in complete contradiction to the many statements of Christ that He will come when least suspected, unawares, as “a thief in the night”, when folks are going about their life as normal? We are to "watch" and be ready expecting Him at any moment. You say it can't happen for at least 3 1/2 years from today assuming the tribulations starts now. Please explain this major flaw in your position?

pj...I repeat my question also...
Where did the elders get their crowns?
Ignoring the tough questions won't make you correct.

Bronze & Elder,

Suppose they got their crowns from the Lord. Irrevlant to the coming of Christ. Sorry to disappoint you, but historical facts show nobody expected Christ to come "any day" before 1830.

This does raise an eyebrow or two as to the originating source of the pre-trib view. Prior to 1830, a pre-tribulation rapture was not preached, teached, or even believed.  The historical facts have been documented, and proven to be historically correct, without any doubts. Walter Martin, founder of the Christian Research Institute, also verified the historical content to be accurate, and changed his view (Lovett’s PC, December, 1976).

Billy Graham said, “Perhaps the Holy Spirit is getting His Church ready for a trial and tribulation such as the world has never known” (Sam Shoemaker’s Under New Management, p. 72).

Leonard Ravenhill, a once famous Christian author with volumes about revival, prayer, and separation, wrote, “There is a cowardly Christianity which…still comforts its fainting heart with the hope that there will be a rapture--- perhaps today---to catch us away from coming tribulation” (Sodom had no Bible, p. 94).

George Mueller (1805-1898) quotes, “The scripture declares plainly that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostasy shall have taken place, and the man of sin….shall have been revealed..”  (Mrs. Mueller’s Missionary Tours and Labours, p.148).

John Foxe (1516-1587) quotes, “..that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church…to disturb the whole Church of Christ..” (Acts and Monuments, I).

John Knox (1515-1572) quotes, “…the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarne of dangers to come, so many years before they come to passé….to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist, The Whore of Babilon” (The Historie of the Reformatioun…, I, p. 76).

Martin Luther (1483-1546), the great reformer, quotes, “The book of Revelation is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church…” (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481).

John Wycliffe (1320-1382) quotes, “Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev. iii” (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wycliffe, D.D., p. 155).

Roger Bacon (1214-1274) quotes, “…because of future perils (for the Church) in the times of Antichrist…” (Opus Majus, II, p. 634).

Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153) quotes, “There remains only one thing—that demon of noonday (Antichrist) should appear, to seduce those who remain still in Christ…” (Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16).

Augustine (673-735) quotes, “But he who reads this passage (Daniel 12), even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church…” (The City of God, XX, 23).

Jerome (340-420) quotes, “I told you that Christ would not come unless Antichrist had come before” (Epistle 21).

Ephraim the Syrian (306-373) quotes, “Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear…” (Sermo Asceticus, I).

Hippolytus (160-240) quotes, “…the one thousand two hundred and three score days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains” (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61).

Irenaeus (140-202) quotes, “And they (the ten kings who shall arise) shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight” (Against Heresies, V, 26).

Justin Martyr (100-168) quotes, “The man of apostasy (Antichrist), who speaks strange things against the most high, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians…” (Dialogue with Trypho, 110).

Hermas (40-140), who the Apostle Paul mentions in Romans 16:14, quotes, “Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire (of the great tribulation that is yet to come), will be purified by means of it….Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints…” (The Pastor of Hermas, Vision 4).

Barnabus (40-100) quotes, “The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches…for the whole (past) time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger….That the Black One (Antichrist) may find no means of entrance…” (Epistle of Barnabus, 4).

Apostle Paul (In 54AD) quotes, “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” (Paul’s epistle to the Thessalonians II, 2:3).

According to history, this author and work proclaiming a mid-tribulation rapture, feels he is in good company. With all that said, the only traditional Church teaching we should hold to, is that which is contained in scripture.

Mike

Mike , Where did you get that information.
I would like to read more about them.

Not that I believe in a Mid-Trib rapture. As I have told you I believe in a Pre-Wrath rapture.

Mike PJ1

I double dog dare you to answer the tough questions that have been posed that you have over, and over again, ignored.

You cannot ignore the Double dog dare. or you are not a man

Jax quote...

 OK you just conceded. The elders got their crowns from Christ. Therefore the Judgement seat has happened...all believers must be present for the Judgement seat. The elders threw their crowns at Christ's feet in Rev 4...Revelation is in chronological order...The tribulation does not begin until Revelation 6. We are raptured before the tribulation.

 Don't tell me Jesus had some spare crowns laying around so He decided to give the elders an early pre-judgement seat present.

 
 Early Pre Trib Teaching.


 Didache - A Church manual from A.D. 110

 Hippolytus'( A.D. 170 to 236) Treatise On The Christ And The Antichrist - Section 66

 The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200 to 258) epistle 55 chapter 7

 Victorinus, Bishop of Petau ( A.D. 240 till his martyrdom in A.D. 304) Commentary On The Apocalypse.

 The Shepherd Of Hermes ( A.D. 130)

 Lactantius' ( second century A.D.) Commentart On The Apocalypse)

 The Epistle Of Barnabas ( A.D. 100)

 The First Epistle Of Clement ( A.D. 30 to A.D. 100)

 Peter Jurieu's Approaching Deliverance Of The Church ( A.D. 1687)

 

Drake, Any library has those sources, from volumes in (  ).

For those who think Revelation is in perect chronogical order, think again.

The book of Revelation is not in perfect chronological order. Most of it is, but there are several chapters, that are parentheses chapters if you will. These chapters are revelations for our learning, yet not necessarily in perfect chronological order. The seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven vials are in order, as is most of this wonderful book. However, when we look at the seven seals, these take place before the seven trumpets and seven vials of God’s wrath. Some get confused for example when reading Revelation 6:9-17, because the fifth and sixth seals are panoramic, future views of the wrath of God. The Lord did not seem fit to place every single verse in Revelation in perfect chronological order. Perhaps the Lord expected us to do a little dividing of the Word of Truth. When the sixth angel sounds the trumpet in Revelation 9:13 to loose the four angels to dry up the great river Euphrates, it actually does not physically happen until Revelation 16:12. “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.” In Revelation 9:15 they were loosed, but if we read the context, they were, “prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay a third part of men.” Then in Revelation 16:16, “He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”  Try not to get confused with the several chapters that take you outside of a perfect sequence.  The book of Revelation has plenty of references to the saints and brethren, and as previously shown, these represent those in the Church.

Precept must be upon precept.

Score:

Bible Evidence   475
pre-trib teory       0

Yours,

Michael
Prophecy Teacher
Jax, Fl

Dear friends,

Statistically, in the Church today, 76% of believers believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture, 6% believe in a mid-tribulation Rapture, and 9% believe in a post-tribulation Rapture. The remaining percentage either does not believe in the Rapture, or in something else, only the Lord knowing what that may be. So if you have switched your view, or at least raised an eyebrow, you are in the minority today. But before 1830, you would have been in the majority. Ask yourself an honest question. Does warning God’s people about these things to come, and preparing them, align with all the prophets in history and their warnings? Or does an easy escape from any hardships sound like a more familiar tune? From Genesis to Revelation, the “minority” received God’s warnings, whereas the “majority,” are historically seen in scripture as not wanting such warnings being told to them. The majority expected something else when Christ came, but the minority listened, believed, and followed.

Once we believe and understand the Church is going into half of the tribulation period, suddenly we identify ourselves with being there, and realize we will be a part of God’s end-time restoration. Things become more real, and the prophecies in Revelation and Daniel come alive. We will be part of the most exciting time the Church has ever seen. No matter what we face, His grace will be sufficient, and we will still have the blessed hope to comfort each other with. God will never give us more than we can bear, He will provide and deliver us, when the time is right. Jesus said, “FEAR NOT,” for I will be with you till the end of time.

For those who's pre-determined, pre-suppositions make them cling to a pre-trib theory, listen to one of your own pre-trib teachers, Hilton Sutton. Quote.....

“If you search for a single verse of scripture which states specifically that the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ and the catching up of the Church is prior to the tribulation, your search will be in vain. There is no such verse. (Rapture, Harrison House p. 55).

To hold a pre-trib vire is presumptious indeed.

Score:

Bible Evidence  750
pre-trib theory     0

Yours,
Michael

I repeat my question, asked at the top of Page 7 and the middle of page 7:

prophecyjax1,  How do you reconcile your mid-triib theory that postulates the Rapture in the middle of the seven-year tribulation period (when even the dullest should be expecting His return) as that is in complete contradiction to the many statements of Christ that He will come when least suspected, unawares, as “a thief in the night”, when folks are going about their life as normal? We are to "watch" and be ready expecting Him at any moment. You say it can't happen for at least 3 1/2 years from today assuming the tribulations starts now. Please explain this major flaw in your position?

I used to use that thought also. Look....

I held a determined pre-tribulation view, and I had my scriptures to back it up. During a conversation with a local, elderly, AG minister from Pennsylvania, back in 1986, we were discussing the timing of the Rapture, and I expressed my pre-tribulation view, and quoted I Thessalonians 5:2 to him saying “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” He looked back at me with a smile, placed his hand on my shoulder, and told me to read verse four. “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” I asked him if he believed the Church would be raptured before any of the seven-year tribulation period, and his response provoked me to further study. He told me with that gray-headed smile to “search the scriptures for myself, and see what the Holy Spirit shows me.” Of coarse his answer was dissatisfactory to me at that time, and went away thinking how wrong he was indeed. Having never again after that day seeing that minister, due to the fact that during Bible College we would frequent many different Churches, that smile always stuck with me. Now that I look back after many years, I now see that elderly smile with respect, for he could not have given me a better answer. About a year later, the Holy Spirit did indeed speak to me, directly from I Corinthians 15:52, and provoked me to even further study on this great topic, (among other things). Our prayer is to provoke you to love and good works, and to search the scriptures for yourself, and see what the Holy Ghost says.

I'm trying to help you build a better understanding in prophecy and things that are yet to come.  Holy Scripture must rest as our final authority, not Church teaching, tradition, or philosophy, or what we want to believe.

In Mark 13:35, Jesus said we don’t know when He will come, whether at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning. Our Lord may be referring to a specific time of day here, rather than a time within the seven-year night. No one can pinpoint the exact timing of the Rapture, nor ever will be able to. We do know that from Daniel 12:11, that once the Antichrist sets himself up as God in the temple, there will be 1290 days left until the end. But this has nothing to do with the Rapture or it’s timing. We also don’t know the exact day the tribulation will start, there will be no announcement made. We will one day realize we are in it, especially when God’s two prophets arise. Another indication will be Russia’s invasion of Israel in Ezekiel chapters 38-39, which will be the next earth-shaking event. But even then, we still cannot pick an exact day. The very day Russia invades Israel may not necessary be the exact day the seven-year tribulation period begins. So the “exact” day in the “midst,” or “middle” of the seven-year tribulation cannot be pin pointed. The only exact day is the very end of things according to Daniel 12:11, the 1290 days, but the Church will not need concern herself with that. However, with that said, we do know the Rapture is to occur in the middle of the tribulation, at the last trumpet of Revelation 11:15.

With all this Biblical evidence, we need to ask ourselves, are we going to take the scriptures, precept upon precept, line upon line, verse upon verse, or are we going to believe traditional thought? We will let you decide.

Hi Jax
Do you know how long the DAY OF THE LORD will last?

Wreck,

The day of the Lord will be during the last 3 1/2 yrs of God's Wrath, towards the end, near the second coming of Christ.

The judgments of God will be the first 3 1/2 yrs and God's wrath the lt 3 1/2 ys.

Mike

Are you ready for the final revelation of the timing of the Rapture? Well, it’s so simple and revealed in scripture, that it does not take a rocket scientist to accept this simple truth. The Apostle Paul tells us in scripture, that the Rapture will occur, “at the last trump.”

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This almost seems too simple, and it is! The Rapture will occur “at the last trump,” which is the last trumpet out of the seven, in Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15. Now I’ve heard some ask the question, how do we know this last trumpet, is the last trumpet of Revelation chapter 11? We will explain and show exactly from scripture what Paul was referring to by the “last trump.” The word “last” is obviously the last in sequence. If you have 7 people in a straight line, and ask the last person to come forward, which one of the seven will it be? Of coarse the 7th person in line will come forward. Just as there are seven trumpets in the book of Revelation, the last trump, will be the 7th. This is the only sequence of trumpets in the entire Bible, so as not to confuse any other trumpets. Some have even said that this “last trump,” could not be the same trumpet in Revelation that Paul is referring to, because, quote, “That is not Paul’s last trump, because that’s an angelic trump, not the trump of God.” Whether God Himself blows the trumpet, or an Angel, it’s still the “last trump.” That’s reasoning, rather than Biblical interpretation, using precept upon precept. The sequence of trumpets starts in revelation 8:7 and concludes in Revelation 11:15. Just because it’s so simple to understand and so plainly laid out by Paul, does not mean it’s not a reality, or a fact.

Some mistake the last trump to be the same trumpet blown at the actually second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:31. But if this were the case, we would have already been raptured, because Matthew 24:29-31 is clearly referring to the literal second coming of Christ WITH HIS SAINTS, not for them.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This trump of God, is the last trump of I Corinthians 15:52, and not to be confused with the “great sound of a trumpet” in Matthew 24:29-31, when Jesus comes back to earth near the time of Armageddon. The “last trump” will sound 3½ years prior to the “great sound of a trumpet” when Jesus comes back with His saints.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is a clear distinction between these two events, for at this trumpet, “all the tribes of the earth shall see Jesus and mourn, and see Him coming.” At the Rapture, only the Bride will see Him and be taken up into the clouds to meet Him in the air. There is clearly a difference in these trumpets. We need to make sure we look at the context of these verses, and use scripture upon scripture. Thus we conclude that this, “great sounding of a trumpet,” or “great trump,” is not the same as the “last trump” of Revelation 11:15, where the Rapture takes place. Remember Zechariah 12:9-14? …”And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for him…..In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem….and all the land shall mourn, every family apart….all the families that remain, every family apart…” This is exactly what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24:30, when He says, “…and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn..” This great trumpet is not the last trumpet of the Rapture, but rather the trumpet to be blown to announce Christ’s arrival upon the earth. Also notice Matthew 24:31, that when this trumpet blows, God’s elect will be gathered “from one end of heaven to the other,” not the gathering of saints from the earth in the Rapture.

Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall gotcha76 from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
Isaiah 27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

At the “great trumpet,” many Jews that would have been killed by the Antichrist will be saved and delivered just in time. What a beautiful revelation the scriptures give us!

Now we are ready to put the final nail in the coffin, for a pre-tribulation Rapture. Take special note of the following verses.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Notice that when the seventh Angel is about to blow the last trumpet, that it says, “the mystery of God should be finished.” This mystery Paul was talking about is the mystery of the relationship between Christ and His Bride. It’s also referring to the Church age we are now living in. Once the last trumpet sounds, the Bride will be raptured, and the Church age, as we know it, will be over. Remember I Corinthians 15:50-52? Before Paul tells us the Rapture is at the “last trump,” he says, “Behold, I shew you a mystery..” The same word “mystery” is used in conjunction with Revelation 10:7, and the last trump. Here’s another golden nugget to add to this “mystery.”

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

The word “mystery “ is used again. When we place all the scriptures together on this great subject, a clearer picture can be seen. Once the trump sounds in Revelation 11:15, the mystery of God will be finished, and the Church age as we know it will cease. The only way this mystery can be finished, is if the Church is now no-where to be found.

jax quote...
 I haven't heard that mush double talk since Fonzie took the Jablonski twins to the drive-in double feature!

 Are you honestly trying to tell us that the scene depicted in Rev 4:1-11 comes after the Tribulation which is described in Rev 6? If that's true then I guess Christ could possibly return with His saints as shown in Rev 19:11 before the tribulation also...with your mind-set any order is possible.
No Michael my friend...you are dead wrong here. You can't fudge this by saying... "The book of Revelation is not in perfect chronological order. Most of it is, but there are several chapters, that are parentheses chapters if you will."

 jax...you used the following statement to further your incorrect argument...


Then after I corrected you...you go onto make the following statement which contradicts the above statement...


First you assert that pre-trib was not taught before 1830
with the following strong unmistakable language...

 
 Then, after I gave you several early examples of pre-trib teachings, you back-track and make the following statement...


I'm truly sorry Michael, but you have lost credibility.
 

PJ1

When does the 7 day Marriage supper of the Lamb occur?

Bronzesnake,

Your not listening very well. I never said Rev 4 is after he tribulation, your mid-quoting me. In an open debate you would lose many points for not being accurate about what I said.

Also I quoted sources, writings, pages, names, volumes, of over 30 Godly men before 1830 who rejected a pre-trib theory. Then you do the same, yet without specific references to pages, titles, dates, etc. Once again, in open debate, you lose points. You even used several of th same authors who were quoted as rejecting a pre-trib, but mine had the SOURCES, yours did not. I gave actualy sources from where you can go to a library and read the actualy writings, not some book from a guy mis-quoting them.

I suggest if you debate this topic, to be accurate in what you quote me as saying, and try listening a litter better, or even bother reading my posts, then you may remember exactly what I said.

With all due respect, I think your doing a good job in attempting your pre-trib theory, but the last trump in Rev 11:15, and the fact that Paul said Antichist must first be revealed before the Rapture, cannot be avoided.

Back to te chronology of Revelation, as I said, most of it is in order, however severeal references in Chapter 6 take you ahead to further chapters at a glance. Example, Revelation 9:13-16 looses four angels which are prepared to do something, that literally does not happen till Rev 16:12-16. So understand when I'm saying it's not in perfect chronological order, it's because some events transpire in several different chapters, such as the river Euphrates, just mentioned. But for you to take this example and then claim I said Rev 4:1-12 is after the tribulation is a "mis-quote" and you would lose an open debate over such things.

Soon, you will believe mid-trib, along with the rest of the Church, once you realize we are in the tribulation. Then the issue of credibility will arise. I suggest you warn and teach God's people as the Apostle Paul did in II Thess 2:1-10. I say to you as Paul told the Thessaonians, "Let no man deceive you." You need to get un-taught first, realize the error of this fable, then you can be taught again. Nothing personal, just trying to help you get this right, that's all.

Bu I respect your efforts, but you have not convinencely still not shown, one verse that specifically shows we will escape te entire 7 yr tribulation. Revelation 3:10, Luke 21:36, and I Thess 5:9, promise deliverance frm God's wrath, the last 3 1/2 yrs, but not His judgments the first 3 1/2 yrs. The escape Jesus is refering to is the same "escape" in I Corinthians 10:13, an escape we will be able to endure, so we go "through it."

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

"But will WITH the temptation, make away of escape." Same escape and temptation of Rev 3:10 and Luke 21:36, same greek words used.

Your challenge to show one verse showing we will escape the entire 7 yr trib, has not ben met, because there is not such a verse in the entire Bible. We have shown hundrends of verses of evidence to show the Church in the tribulation.

Yours,

Michael

Score:

Bible Evidence     850
pre-trib theory       0

Early Pre Trib Teaching.


Didache Title- A Church manual from A.D. 110Date

Hippolytus'( A.D. 170 to 236)Date Treatise On The Christ And The Antichrist Title- Section 66Reference

The Epistles Of CyprianTitle (A.D. 200 to 258)Date epistle 55 chapter 7Reference

Victorinus, Bishop of Petau ( A.D. 240 till his martyrdom in A.D. 304)Date Commentary On The Apocalypse.Title

The Shepherd Of HermesTitle (A.D. 130)Date

Lactantius' ( second century A.D. )Date Commentary On The ApocalypseTitle

The Epistle Of BarnabasTitle ( A.D. 100)Date

The First Epistle Of ClementTitle ( A.D. 30 to A.D. 100)Date

Peter Jurieu's Approaching Deliverance Of The ChurchTitle ( A.D. 1687)Date


 so...Rev 4 is before the tribulation?
"In an open debate you would lose many points for not being accurate about what I said." LOL!!! Are you for real? You are really obsessed with keeping score aren't you? Is this all some kind of a game with you? If we were in an "open debate" scoreing would be done by an independant judge...not one of the participants. LOL!!! sorry but that is just way to comical.


 Are you purposefully trying to deceive, or are you just really confused?
Your argument about the chronology of Revelation is a bit slippery.
 You point out that certain events depicted in early chapters of Revelation don't actually occur until further on in the book. You are of course correct, but they still happen in the exact chronological order in which they are presented.
Look, none of Revelation has happened yet. All of Revelation at this point in time is a vision of future events, but they will happen in the exact order that Jesus laid them out for us.

So when Jesus depicts a future event in which the elders are casting their crowns at the feet of His throne beforethe tribulation is described, then we must conclude this is the correct chronological order that these events will occur.

 As I already pointed out...useing your logic, I could take any verse out of Revelation and move it around to suit my needs.
That is exactly why Jesus put things in order for us.

 
 Your arrogance and childish score keeping speak volumes about where your heart is at.

Hi Jax
Yea, the Day of the Lord will last but 1 year (according to scripture) There is only 1 bride.

JOEL 2 [1] Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;[2] A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. [9] They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.[10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [16] Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. [28] And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;

Its on the Day of the Lord that bride will be let out the closet.
Theres the last trumpet to. The sun and moon darkened and so on and so on.....

Bronze,

Where did you say the last trumpet is specifically?

Would you like to have an open debate sometime? Me an an associate, will debate yourself and one other associate on video, with moderator, timed responses, and good honest Christian debate. It will last two hours, with one hour each for responses. I should enjoy such an event, seeing anyone try to prove from scripture a pre-tribulation theory, especially knowing context, proper interpratation, and historical evidence.

Did you even request my book? Perhaps you might learn something, I'm sure your not beyond the level of learning anything are you?

Anyhow, enough said, and yes I'm scorekeeping, because the Word of God wins over fabels. The score is not for me, but for the truth. Presumption, pre-suppositions, and pre-determonined positions are not good, if scripture does not back them. And scripture twisting, stretching a verse or two has to be done to justify fables and theories.

Example----The crowns the Lord gives the elders, has absoulety nothing to do with the Rapture of the Church. It's such a silly reference, I just may add it to my book.

Anyhow, it seems nothing in scripture will persuade you, but one thing will. And that's the day you realize we ain't flying away

Dear Michael:

How I pray Jesus comes SOON!

Marc
(http://hallindseyoracle.com/cartoons/cartoon44large.jpg)

So Jax and Bronze
The last trumpet is blowing in Joel 2, on the Day of the Lord. The brides there, the bridegrooms there. Does it say clarinet in youse guys bible. Only kiddin kinda. You sun day go to meetin guys are gettin pretty rowdy. Was Joel 2 discussed already. And if it was, why anymore discussion.
Aint no mid, aint no pre, alls ya get is what ya see.

jax quote...

 This is what it's really all about with you jax..."my book"
No, I didn't request "your book" I already have plenty of kleenex here at home, thanks anyway.

 jax quote...

 LOL!!! Oh brother! are you for real? That's the funniest thing I've heard in ages! Thanks for the laughs brother jax...no, really! You're cracking me up!...I'm going to have to start calling you 'CrackerJax!'
 ;D
Are you not content with looking arrogant and foolish on a public web site?

Hi E57
Are we being ignored. Shunned?

pj quote...

OldTimer quote...
 You really place you entire thesis on just two verses: 1 Cor. 15:52 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Let’s take the Corinthian verse first:
You equate the “last trump” to the sounding of the seventh angel but John does not call it that. He says “the seventh angel sounded.” That these are trumpets sounded by angels and not the trump of God mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:52 makes no impression on you. When I pointed out the verse in Rev. 4: 1 that the trump of God calls John up, you scoff and seem amused. That the 24 Elders, mentioned immediately after the “calling up” cast their crowns before Christ seems to pass you by. You are unable to see the Church in these 24 Elders. I have done a search of the book of Revelation. The trump of God mentioned in 4:1 is the last trump sounded by God in the Bible.

Yes we are being ignored

But I have learned that a coward will go the other route to avoid a real battle.

Hey E57
What are you talkin bout(When does the 7 day Marriage supper of the Lamb occur?)Dont think ive read about that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Jax- I aint goin away
Yea, the Day of the Lord will last but 1 year (according to scripture) There is only 1 bride.

JOEL 2 [1] Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;[2] A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. [9] They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.[10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [16] Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. [28] And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;

Its on the Day of the Lord that bride will be let out the closet.
Theres the last trumpet to. The sun and moon darkened and so on and so on.....

Rev 19

Marriage of the Lamb

7   "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for  the marriage of the Lamb has come and His  bride has made herself ready."
8   It was given to her to clothe herself in  fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9   Then  he said to me, "Write, ' Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, " These are true words of God."




John 2


Miracle at Cana

1   On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there;
2   and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.


It is Jewish custom for the feast to last for 7 days / one week. The bride and the groom are together at this feast eating and enjoying the feast as all their friends and relatives bring gifts and everyone celebrates; In the middle of the week is the wedding and the couple resign to their private quarters as the celebration continues.   I think the feast will be in Heaven and the private quarters will be the New Jerusalem

In prophecy one week equals 7 years.  This custom of the Jews is not broken and if anyone recalls; Jesus, who just happens to be God and is still a Jewish man in the flesh will keep the feast / marriage supper of the Lamb.  And Jesus will give his bride gifts as is the custom


After the crucifixion, resurrection, and asending to heaven and then showing Himself again to his deciples Jesus pointed out that he is flesh and blood.

Luke 24
38   And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39   "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
40   And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.




1 John 4


Testing the Spirits

1   Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2   By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3   and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.


Jesus goes by the book and it includes the traditions and customs of his people; the Jewish people. not the Americans.  He did and still keeps their customs even the bride will not be any older then the groom.  33 1/2


He is Jesus, born a Jew; died a Jew; and resurrected a Jew.

Friends,

Rev 4:1 has nothing to do with the Rapture. That's one of the most extreme strectches I've ever heard yet, along with the weeding feast at Cana. That just goes to prove, that many are so desperate in attempting a prove a pre-trib threory, that any scriptures totally irrevelant to the second coming are applied. I'm sorry, but that's a very weal eschatological argument. Revelation chapter 4 is simply a revelation to John and for us, and has not a singe verse of implication or clarity regardig the catching away of the Bride.

However, the last trumpet of the seven trumpets in Rev 10:7 and Rev 11:15, has everything to do with the Rapture, along with Rev chap 12, and the two prophets being "caught up" in chapter 11. There can be no doubt from scripture that the Rapture is in Chap 11, and also from II Thess 2, that the revealng of the Antichrist must first come.

Eschatology rests upon properly dividing the word of truth and using all scripture from Gen to Rev.

Seems most have avoided II Thess 2:1-4 about the Antichrist has to be revealed FIRST, before the day of Christ and "our gathering together unto Him." I'd love to hear tat one explained away.

Yours,

Michael

Did Jesus keep the traditions and customs of His birth People?


If so; will Jesus continue to keep these Customs and traditions?


What does the word say and does opinion line up with the word?

You be the Judge.

John 14


Jesus Comforts His Disciples

1   "Do not let your heart be troubled;believe in God, believe also in Me.
2   "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3   "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

What does this refer to in Jewish Custom?

The Jewish Groom after becoming engaged returns to His Fathers House and prepares a Room or Rooms for His Bride.  it could be as little as a leanto, if they cannot wait or even as big as the Groom"s family can afford; But it is the custom to go and prepare a place for the Bride.



Luke 2
48   When they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You."
49   And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?"
50   But they did not understand the statement which He had made to them.
 

It is the Jewish custom and even in other country's that the son / sons would follow in the occupations of their Fathers.


So why the confusion in vs. 50
50   But they did not understand the statement which He had made to them.


Jesus was not at home in the carpenter shop and He told them he needed to be about his Fathers business; although Joseph was not a priest, so why was Jesus in the temple and making this statement?  For us the answer is very clear, He's God.  For his earthly parents he should have been only in the Carpenter shop.  which Jesus made himself subject to until his Ministry years.  He kept the traditions.


What about us as Christians; Do we follow Jewish customs and traditions.


What about counting your blessings,  I've heard the statement and even have counted a few; but where does it come from.

COUNTING OUR BLESSINGS.


And what about that word "Amen"


What about Jesus using the word amen?

He did more then use it.  The word is him and He is the word.


Revelation 3
13   He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14   And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15   I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.


Not only in just a few places does Jesus keep tradition and customs but in the instance of the use of the word Amen he goes even farther.

So if Jesus keeps the traditions and customs, what makes you think that he will change, since God does not change.  

PJ1
 you can quote from God's holy word, out of context, all day long and for the rest of your miniture life and it will not change one thing about God and who He is and that he keeps the traditions of the Jewish people and his many examples through out His word are lined up with Jewish tradition and there is the week for the marriage supper to be performed and it starts at the "Rature"  and ends at the "Return of Christ" with the saints following him.  

Seven years are needed for the feast and the bride needs to be present for the feast in order to be the bride.


I can go on and on, like the Bride waiting for the groom.

Or the Virgins waiting for the groom.

Or the lamps filled with oil.

All and more Jewish Customs and Traditions and You have the nerve to say that God has changed from who He is and what He does, by putting forth your little book and proclaiming your opinion as the truth and trying to keep score.  who are you to say that God Almighty will now change to line Himself up with you.  He is the straight edge and you will line up.  For it is declared that evey knee will bow and every tongue will confess...


AMEN

No figurin, no reckoninging, no stories, just plain old scripture saying there aint no pre and there aint no mid

When shall we “ALL” be changed

1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

JOB 14  [12] So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me![14] If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job knew when we shall “ALL”  be changed. After the wrath has past and after the heavens be no more.
Yup, its the DAY OF THE LORD. In Isaiah 34 which is describing the “DAY OF THE LORD” the WORD says that at that time the heavens shall be dissolved.

I expect these scriptures to be ignored as was JOEL 2. Theres plenty more.

Dear Friends,

It’s all too clear that certain things must first happen before Jesus will, or even can come again. In John 21:18-19, Jesus told Peter, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God.” Jesus Himself told Peter that he was going to grow old and die for Him by crucifixion (A.D. 67). This did away with an any-moment Rapture, and certainly Peter believed the Lord, and was not expecting an imminent return of Christ. In Acts 23:11, Jesus told the Apostle Paul, “Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.” This prediction the Lord gave Paul, left no doubt that there could not be an any-moment Rapture, for he must still testify in Rome. Just as the Lord gave these predictions, there are many predictions for us in this end-time, which clearly makes void, and null an any-moment Rapture. Jesus said “Elijah must first come,” and certain things must first transpire BEFORE His coming for His saints. So expect the Spirit of Elijah to be poured out upon God’s two prophets of Revelation 11:3-13, and other ministers in this end-time, because an imminent return of Christ cannot take place until these things occur.

James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

That Spirit has a tendency to do things for 3½ years, does it not? Now that’s a close!

Michael

jax quote...


 In order for me to believe you, I must believe that Jesus was wrong or lying when He said the following...
 Mar 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

 Also, you contradict yourself. On one post you claim a "pre-wrath" rapture where we are raptured before the nasty stuff (described below) begins. Now you are telling us we must endure some nasty stuff before we get raptured.

 
    Rev 11:3   And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.  
   
    Rev 11:4   These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.  
   
    Rev 11:5   And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.  
   
    Rev 11:6   These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.  
   
    Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.  


 So what is it now? "mid-wrath"?

 The time of the rapture is unknown...
Mar 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

 However, the final return of Christ with his saints can be known, as it is described in the Bible that exactly seven years(Jewish Calendar) after the antichrist signs the false peace treaty

Bronze,

No man knows the day or hour, but we do know the promixity.

Paul and Peter did not expect an imminent return, they had the Lord's word they had to do stuff first.

Jesus would not lie would he?

Michael

Thats nothin Bronze
Jax chooses to ignore the scriptures i sent proving there is no mid or pre trib raptsure.

Ya, I hear you WNS. But I have to disagree with you my brother, there is most definitive evidence for a rapture in the Bible. The question is when. I happen to believe in a pre-trib rapture.

Hi Bronze
Whats your explanation of Joel 2?

Hi WNS.
The very first line in that scripture should clear things up somewhat...

 "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain"

 This is God instructing an angel to sound a trumpet alarm.
It's a warning of a judgement that's about to take place upon the inhabitants of the earth. Faithful Christians will not be here for that, although during the tribulation many will be saved.

 Notice in these Rapture verses the trump is not being blown by an angel, but by Jesus...it's the trump of God calling His church out of the tribulation...

 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


  1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 In this next verse it describes Jesus' return from Heaven to the earth with his armies clothed in fine linen. How can we return with Jesus to the earth from Heaven if we never got Raptured in the first place?

 Rev 19:14  And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 The words "clothed in fine linen, white and clean." make it clear these are forgiven, saved Christians and not angels.


 

Oh,
So your saying its not the "bride" that is to be raptsured.

Joel 2 [10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [16] Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

The day of the Lord has already begun before the bride goes forth.

Hey PJ1  this shows that you really do not know Gods word at all. heres your words and I will hilite some of your words

"It’s all too clear that certain things must first happen before Jesus will, or even can come again. In John 21:18-19, Jesus told Peter, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God.” Jesus Himself told Peter that he was going to grow old and die for Him by crucifixion (A.D. 67). This did away with an any-moment Rapture, and certainly Peter believed the Lord, and was not expecting an imminent return of Christ. In Acts 23:11, Jesus told the Apostle Paul, “Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.” This prediction the Lord gave Paul, left no doubt that there could not be an any-moment Rapture, for he must still testify in Rome. "


That stuff is really backwards of you and shows how much you  pay attention to the word of God.  take a look at Moses and how God told Him he would go to Eygpt and free the Israelites and then while Moses was on his way God set out to  KILL Moses and would have except his wife did what was right in Gods eyes and God spared Moses.  So it easy to see that even though God told Moses He was going to eygpt God just about put a stop to Moses altogether.

Now PJ1 can you put 2+2 and come up with four and figure out that your Peter plan and your Paul theroy have a major flaw in them?

Preface to my new book, ad new Publishing company to come.

We plan on publishing discount Bibles (KJV) and publishing goo Christian essays.

PREFACE

My fellow servants in Christ, the timing and sequence as to the Rapture of the Church is clearly revealed by Scripture and the Apostle Paul! That’s right! This essay of truth and Scripture will clearly be the defining moment that will show us an understanding we may not have seen afore time. It’s the author’s intent not merely to publish a book, but to bring light and understanding to a terrific Biblical doctrine by which we may “comfort one another with these words.”

Christian Churches in America have frequently been divided over the issue of the Rapture. It is our hope that this essay will promote a unity of the faith, and bring a better understanding of this great subject. It’s not our intent to attempt to persuade one way or another, just to lay the foundation of scripture and leave the reader to decide on their own. With all fairness and gravity, we will show the viewpoints of both sides and present what we believe to be the scriptural answer. We hold to, believe, and acknowledge the Holy Scriptures, as our final authority, rather than traditional beliefs.

We guarantee this expose will be the most revealing and eye-opening experience as to this subject. Does the author have all the credentials of famous Christian writers and authors, whose writings are published before written? No, this author does not. However after over 20 years of research, study, and Biblical evidence, this essay will present a dramatic case as to the timing of the Rapture. We ask the reader to look at the scriptures and be like the Berians, who searched the scriptures themselves, to see whether these things were so.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

Regardless of which position you may hold, the most important matter is a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. You may have heard the saying, “it will all pan out,” and this is true. Whether your pre, mid, or post-tribulation is irrelevant in comparison to a saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. However, with that said, the Rapture is a doctrine contained in scripture, and thus of importance to us. I’ve heard some say that it’s not a good idea for young Christians to get hung up on the details of prophecy, or that it can be too confusing or divisive. This may be partially true, however, over one-third of your Holy Bible relates to prophecy, and it is the Word of God, and must be taught and preached also. That’s why God raises up ministers, so that these things can be taught and proclaimed, just as the Apostle Paul did. When the Apostle Paul wrote the Thessalonians, and declared things about the coming of Christ, he did not apologize for it, or seem concerned about it’s effects. Jesus Himself talked about things to come, along with all the prophets and teachers throughout Bible history. Their focus was not to divide, confuse, or argue a point, but rather to comfort, exhort, and clarify things that are yet to come. We take the same position with this volume. The authors’ intent is not to attempt to argue a point, cause any division, in a Church that’s already divided, but rather to bring a focus on the prophetic scriptures, and how they relate to us in this current age. It’s our prayer that this volume will only “challenge” you to raise an eyebrow, and with an honest heart, study the scriptures for yourself, and verify the facts presented in this volume. Without an honest heart, regardless of facts or scriptural evidence, a pre-determined, pre-supposition will be hard to let go. This author does confess, that during my years in an Assembly of God Bible College, I held a determined pre-tribulation view, and I had my scriptures to back it up. During a conversation with a local, elderly, AG minister from Pennsylvania, we were discussing the timing of the Rapture, and I expressed my pre-tribulation view, and quoted I Thessalonians 5:2 to him saying “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” He looked back at me with a smile, placed his hand on my shoulder, and told me to read verse four. “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” I asked him if he believed the Church would be raptured before any of the seven-year tribulation period, and his response provoked me to further study. He told me with that gray-headed smile to “search the scriptures for yourself, and see what the Holy Spirit shows you.” Of coarse his answer was dissatisfactory to me at that time, and I went away thinking how wrong he was indeed. Having never again after that day seeing that minister, due to the fact that during Bible College we would frequent many different Churches, that smile always stuck with me. Now that I look back after many years, I now see that elderly smile with respect, for he could not have given me a better answer. About a year later, the Holy Spirit did indeed speak to me, directly from I Corinthians 15:52, and provoked me to even further study on this great topic, (among other things). Our prayer is to provoke you to love and good works, and to search the scriptures for yourself, and see what the Holy Ghost says.

May the Lord bless your reading of this book. This study tool will help you build a better understanding in prophecy and things that are yet to come. You will notice a lot of scriptures are quoted in this volume, and the reason for this is explained in chapter one. Holy Scripture rests as our final authority, not Church teaching, tradition, or philosophy.

EZEK.13  
[16] To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.
[17] Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
[18] And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
[19] And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
[20] Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
[21] Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
[22] Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

Dont spend all your lucre in one place

Well If I see your book in any store I will inform the owners that they are out of line and should send your book to the shredders.

In your post giving the Preface of your book you state:
"With all fairness and gravity, we will show the viewpoints of both sides..."

If your response to various posts on this board against your position is any indication of your "fariness and gravity" to those that disagree with you, what may we expect in the book? I fear it will NOT be presenting both sides.

The strongest argument you could use to prove your mid-tribulation position would be to completely destroy the arguments FOR a pre-trib position. I do not think you have done this in your posts here. You have argued your position with great vigor but only have given cursory responses to those presenting scripture against.

I will say, however, that your posts have been courteous and polite.

I on the other hand will say, however, that your posts have not been courteous and polite.


someone who speaks or types to you and for you too ignore them is one of the rudests things a person can do.


I would not ignore a person speaking to me.


Like "talk to the hand for the face is not listening"

  Hello everybody,

   My computer has crashed beyond repair. I'm on a friends computer now and wanted to say hello and I'll be back as soon as possible.

                                                                Paul2

 I was wondering where you went Paul.
See ya soon.

Part of Chapter 1

RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH

This is perhaps the most important chapter. Without understanding on how to properly interpret the Bible, there is no chance of understanding scripture, especially prophecy! There are certain keys the Bible gives us for properly dividing the Word on any given subject. By following these principles, we receive light and understanding and utilize the “key of knowledge” as Jesus mentioned in Luke 11:52.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

“Rightly dividing the Word of Truth!” When we look at the Rapture of the Church and discuss the issue of timing, it’s very critical we don’t just look at one or two verses here and there, and base a conclusion. We must take all of the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, as many as there may be, and place them all together, before we are to conclude anything. This is the “key” along with both the Old and New Testaments alike.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

Our foundation of beliefs and doctrine rests upon the words of the New Testament Apostles, the Old Testament Prophets, and the words of Jesus Christ! We must discern the WHOLE Bible in order to clearly see. Let’s look at this key and clarify!

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little…

Hungry for knowledge and want to understand doctrine? Want to feed on some meat, and get away from just the milk of God’s Word? Then precept “MUST BE” upon precept, meaning scripture must be applied to other scriptures, line upon line, here a little and there a little. Many of us see a certain verse, and believe we know exactly what it means, and in many cases this is true. However, many times also, especially in prophecy, other verses must coincide to get the full picture on the subject. In prophecy every verse in the Bible must be used to get the proper understanding. One of the reasons prophecy is so confusing and you hear so many different views is the “key of knowledge” is not used. This is the very first principle, and without this key, we can never hope to understand any doctrine in God’s Word.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

If you’re tired of milk, and want to grow as a Christian, then pursue the meat of God’s Word, and use this key of knowledge to rightly divide the Word of truth! This, ladies and gentlemen is the “first principle,” the “key of knowledge” to full discovery of God’s wonderful Word! Notice the scriptures, saying “hey, first things first!”

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Knowing this first! No prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation! This not only tells us that the scripture is inspired by the Holy Ghost, but in many cases, we cannot give our own interpretation, without other scripture to interpret first. Do we conclude this by one verse alone? No, we conclude this by attaching the revelation of this verse with the previous seven or eight verses we just quoted. We are also aware there are many verses that are a declaration unto themselves and this key is not always used. But when it comes to prophecy, PRECEPT MUST BE UPON PRECEPT, SCRIPTURE UPON SCRIPTURE, HERE A VERSE, AND THERE A VERSE!  This is the way the Holy Ghost teaches us!

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Notice the Spirit of Truth, will guide us “into all truth!” Not parts of it, but rather all of it. Especially when He will “shew” us things to come.  This is the way the Holy Ghost teaches us, comparing scripture with scripture, verse upon verse, and line upon line.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Comparing spiritual things with spiritual, scripture with scripture, verse with verse, and line upon line. The key revealed! We are going to take this key and open up the mystery of the Rapture of the Church! It’s very important when we expound the Word of God that we use all the scriptures in the Bible to clarify a doctrine, and hold nothing back.

Part of Chapter 1

RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH

This is perhaps the most important chapter. Without understanding on how to properly interpret the Bible, there is no chance of understanding scripture, especially prophecy! There are certain keys the Bible gives us for properly dividing the Word on any given subject. By following these principles, we receive light and understanding and utilize the “key of knowledge” as Jesus mentioned in Luke 11:52.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

“Rightly dividing the Word of Truth!” When we look at the Rapture of the Church and discuss the issue of timing, it’s very critical we don’t just look at one or two verses here and there, and base a conclusion. We must take all of the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, as many as there may be, and place them all together, before we are to conclude anything. This is the “key” along with both the Old and New Testaments alike.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

Our foundation of beliefs and doctrine rests upon the words of the New Testament Apostles, the Old Testament Prophets, and the words of Jesus Christ! We must discern the WHOLE Bible in order to clearly see. Let’s look at this key and clarify!

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little…

Hungry for knowledge and want to understand doctrine? Want to feed on some meat, and get away from just the milk of God’s Word? Then precept “MUST BE” upon precept, meaning scripture must be applied to other scriptures, line upon line, here a little and there a little. Many of us see a certain verse, and believe we know exactly what it means, and in many cases this is true. However, many times also, especially in prophecy, other verses must coincide to get the full picture on the subject. In prophecy every verse in the Bible must be used to get the proper understanding. One of the reasons prophecy is so confusing and you hear so many different views is the “key of knowledge” is not used. This is the very first principle, and without this key, we can never hope to understand any doctrine in God’s Word.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

If you’re tired of milk, and want to grow as a Christian, then pursue the meat of God’s Word, and use this key of knowledge to rightly divide the Word of truth! This, ladies and gentlemen is the “first principle,” the “key of knowledge” to full discovery of God’s wonderful Word! Notice the scriptures, saying “hey, first things first!”

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Knowing this first! No prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation! This not only tells us that the scripture is inspired by the Holy Ghost, but in many cases, we cannot give our own interpretation, without other scripture to interpret first. Do we conclude this by one verse alone? No, we conclude this by attaching the revelation of this verse with the previous seven or eight verses we just quoted. We are also aware there are many verses that are a declaration unto themselves and this key is not always used. But when it comes to prophecy, PRECEPT MUST BE UPON PRECEPT, SCRIPTURE UPON SCRIPTURE, HERE A VERSE, AND THERE A VERSE!  This is the way the Holy Ghost teaches us!

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Notice the Spirit of Truth, will guide us “into all truth!” Not parts of it, but rather all of it. Especially when He will “shew” us things to come.  This is the way the Holy Ghost teaches us, comparing scripture with scripture, verse upon verse, and line upon line.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Comparing spiritual things with spiritual, scripture with scripture, verse with verse, and line upon line. The key revealed! We are going to take this key and open up the mystery of the Rapture of the Church! It’s very important when we expound the Word of God that we use all the scriptures in the Bible to clarify a doctrine, and hold nothing back.

Your almost as funny as Jack van Impe. Thanks for the belly laughs.

jax...
slow down man. You're acting like an egotistical maniac.
It's one thing to disagree on scripture, but you're putting yourself up on a platform and looking down on us poor "ignant"
lost souls. Have some humility. Your book has made you arrogant. Maybe you should read your last post and take heed.

jax writes
Hungry for knowledge and want to understand doctrine? Want to feed on some meat, and get away from just the milk of God’s Word?

1 COR.3 [1] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.[2] I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now
are ye able.

I have fed you with milk

ISAIAH 28 [9] Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.[10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:[11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.[12] To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk
What is this rest and what is this refreshing the WORD is speaking of that the people will not hear.

EXODUS 31 [15] Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.[16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.[17] It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed - There it is.

JER.6 [16] Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.[17] Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.[18] Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.[19] Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken
(Jesus will return at the last trumpet) I hope your listening by then
ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls

ISAIAH 58 [12] And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.[13] If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:[14] Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

The restorer of paths to dwell in

HEY JAX GOT MILK?

I do not recall Jesus saying " I giveth thou the Key of Knowledge to unlockth the word withth"

Could you point out the one that tells us he gave us some knowledge keys

to all christians who believe they are going to be raptured before the tribulation starts, i just have a couple questions:  why would God take His Church off the earth at the very time this world needs us most?  why would He promise us a blessing for reading, understanding, and living the words of Revelation only to take us up before any of it happens?  the pre trib theory was started because preachers were too afraid to tell their congregation that they would have to experience 42 months of tribulation, even though Jesus clearly told us "in the world you WILL have tribulation".  God didn't promise a special blessing for understanding Genesis or Samuel or John or Corinthians; He promised a special blessing for ABSORBING The Revelation of Jesus Christ to John because He knew we were going to be down here for it for 42 months and we were going to be witnessing to the unsaved through it!  don't you think your witnessing power would have a little more credibility to it if you could point verse by verse to the unfolding events of the tribulation?  don't you think your unsaved acquaintances might take a little bit more notice if you show them the verses about the two witnesses in Jerusalem, the arrival on the world scene of the anti-christ, or the fact that 1.6 billion people are about to die in the 4th seal!  the first 42 months of the tribulation will see more people come to Christ as a result of our witnessing through the Book of Revelation than in all history combined!  Jesus Christ witnessed and preached to the world for 42 months before He was taken up in the clouds and so will the church!  the evidence is overwhelming for a mid-trib rapture and i just don't know how all christians don't see it.

This subject has caused a great deal of division among the body of Christ and it should not cause such divisions. You mention 42 months so I see that you believe in a mid-trib. Those who believe in 84 months are just as convinced as you are in 42 months. Those that believe in a pre-trib are just as convinced also. Each one is able to come up with very convincing scripture and reasons supporting their beliefs.

Not everything in scripture is revealed to us. If this were revealed to us then we would know the day, hour etc which we do not and will not until that time is on us. This un-certainity in this is actually a good thing. As we are told in Mat 24:44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." Being uncertain of the time of His coming makes us be ready at all times. To continually watch as we are told to, to stay in His word following in His footsteps. This is the important portion of this scripture, not when, but to be ready, to watch, to stand fast in Christ, to continue in His work until the night is here.

I just want to state my opinion on why it must be a pre.
If it was a mid, we would know when the Rapture is.

Well said David!! :D :D :D

well, we won't know the exact day or hour of the rapture but i think we'll know the month and year (how bout between sept. 15th and oct. 15th 2012....just to shake up all you date-a-phobics)  you have to understand that we are COMMANDED to discern the times and seasons, to not be ignorant of the coming of the Day of the Lord!  Jesus wants us with our noses in the bible, constantly searching scripture to gain understanding of this most blessed event.  i feel confident He will come for us on the Feast of Trumpets as He has already fulfilled 4 of the other Jewish feasts on the exact day they were celebrated.  what's left?....Day of Atonement and Tabernacles!

you're making no sense at all

Amen.

Mankind has continually attempted to put days, months and years to the rapture and such people have continually been proven wrong. Let every man be a liar but let God be true. This is not being a "date-a-phobic" it is in fact believing God's word.


Act 1:7  And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority.

1Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that I write to you.
1Th 5:2  For you yourselves know accurately that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night.

Mat 24:43  But know this, that if the steward of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be dug through.

Mar 13:33  Take heed, watch and pray, for you do not know when the time is.

i make no sense to the unstudied.  sorry mr. james, if you don't know about the archetype prophecies of the jewish feasts.  there were seven of them and four have been fulfilled by Jesus.  what's left after Christ comes at the feasts of trumpets (which happens in the fall, by the way) is the feast of atonement (tribulation) and the feast of tabernacles (the millenial reign of Christ).  oh, and by the way....they were all fulfilled on the exact day that they were celebrated on the jewish calendar so the remaining three will follow in kind.  study the Word to show yourself approved by GOD!

witness2,

Not all are seasoned Christians that are knowledgable in the doctrines of men vs the doctrines of the Bible when it comes to prophecies. Even those that are still find this subject a contentious matter amongst themselves, some to the point that they spend all of their time arguing these points and ignoring the weightier matters of scriptures.

Hello Witness2,

WELCOME!


The world's greatest Bible Scholars have always had numerous disagreements in Bible Prophecy. A wise rule is only fools try to set dates, and there are a host of Bible Scholars over many generations who did make fools of themselves. I'll do more than guess that you aren't a Bible Scholar and neither am I. However, I am wise enough to state that Bible Prophecy will be fulfilled at God's Appointed Time. I do think that the end days of this Age of Grace MIGHT be soon, and "soon" in GOD'S Eyes could be 1,000 years.

I have known many Workmen of the Bible who labored many years in the areas of Bible Prophecy. I don't know a single one who even set a year without making a fool of themselves. It's sad that they also cast doubt on the Holy Bible with their actions, especially for the lost. We do have quite a few highly detailed threads on the forum in the area of Bible Prophecy. You should be able to easily find some writers who set dates or years, and they got nothing for all of their effort but being labeled a "False Prophet".

I've already seen the arguments for the year 2012, and I'm relatively sure that you aren't the original writer and researcher. Regardless, there are thousands of shipwrecks to look at in the past. However, you might think that you're much wiser than thousands of failed Bible Scholars in the past, so use your own judgment.

true I am not well studied. However, when I said you're making no sense, I was referring to the fact that you didn't give any scriptures or background information.