Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture

[Early57]

This is the score you show:

Bible Evidence:    75
pre-trib theory      0


But I went and checked and the real score is:

Your Evidence:    75
pre-trib Bible      316


Just because you do not accept the score does not make it any less, just like the Pre-trib Rapture.  Just because your understanding is tweaked does not make your understanding real.  U have seen the proof and yet deny the same proof.  your view being wrong, but you believing it makes it real in your own eyes and your followers

[prophecyjax1]

Ok, someone tell me where is the last trump of I Cor15:52?

And don't use Matthew 24, because it's the second coming of Christ with His saints to earth, everyone knows this.

Where is the last trump and use scripture only.

That's your challenge.

Michael

[Paul2]

Hi Paul2.
Thanks for the commentary, I like it.
However, I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say...

" When the Rapture takes place the door will be shut and locked again. Theres only one time the door will be open, if you miss His call at the Rapture, there won't be a second call."

 After the Rapture there will be many left behind who will realize their mistake and become true believers; Those who refuse to worship the beast or accept his mark, and are beheaded for the witness of Jesus.

 Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    BronzeSnake,

     Let me be more specific. When I said the door would be locked again I meant to convey there is no second or third Rapture. Some have a theory that there are different stages or Raptures. There is only one.

     Further more after the Rapture the Church is complete. No more souls will be added to the unique group of believers known as the Bride of Christ, the church. Multitudes will become "Saints" after the Rapture but the difference is they will not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Saints of the Tribulation will be led by the Holy Spirit just like the Saints of the Old Testament were led by the Holy Spirit but not indwelt.

    People who miss the Rapture lose the chance to be the Bride of Christ, they become friends of the Bride Groom but not His Wife. The Church is taken to the Bema Judgment Seat for our rewards at the Rapture. We are going to a seven year long wedding week.

     Many people who don't believe in God but have heard about the Rapture try to say when they see it they will believe it, and won't take the mark of the beast and would be beheaded because then they would know its true. Point is they could never be part of the Church after the Rapture. They would have to settle for Saint.

     I believe Saints will be indwelt with the Holy Spirit at some point after Christ returns at the second coming to establish His kingdom, but during the Tribulation I do not believe Saints will be Indwelt.

Revelation 20:4   "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    You picked a good verse to make my point. The "Souls" were seen because they hadn't been ressurected into bodies yet. Jesus is returning to earth with His Bride the Church for the Wedding feast and the souls of the martyred tribulation Saints are awaiting ressurection. They didn't receive their bodies immediately after death but had to wait for their ressurrection. They are not the Bride of Christ, the Church.

    At the Rapture the Church is complete and finished and perfected. Miss the Rapture and you'll have to settle for Saint until your beheading and then wait for your body which is not the Bride.

    The Rapture is a one time event.

     I hope that cleared up what I meant.

                                        The pre-Trib. view by Paul2

[Bronzesnake]

Ok, someone tell me where is the last trump of I Cor15:52?

And don't use Matthew 24, because it's the second coming of Christ with His saints to earth, everyone knows this.

Where is the last trump and use scripture only.

That's your challenge.

Michael

I've got one for you "score keeper"
First read this...

"Rev 4:10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,  
   
    Rev 4:11   Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

 Revelation is in chronological order. These elders have cast down their crowns at Jesus' feet. Therefore the Judgement seat of Jesus has already taken place, otherwise there would be no crowns for the elders to throw before the throne.

The next event in Revelation, after the Rapture, is chapter 6, which is the Tribulation.  Since chapter 4 comes before chapter 6 (the Tribulation) then we must conclude that the Rapture does take place before the Tribulation.

 You are confusing two seperate events.

first is the Rapture as described below...

    1Th 4:16   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  
   
    1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  
   
    1Th 4:18   Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  

 The next event is when we are given our new heavinly bodies...

    1Cr 15:52   In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  
   
    1Cr 15:53   For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.  
   
    1Cr 15:54   So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  

 So, your challenge is...where do the elders get their crowns from, before the tribulation? Is there a second judgement seat of Jesus?

[Paul2]

Elijah must first come, and the two witnesses of Rev 11 will preach the first 3 1/2 yrs to the church and be raptured in chapeter 11, same time as the Church. And the Woman in Rev 12 is the Church.

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Notice, “Her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.”  The Bride of Christ, is shown raptured here, and to rule all nations with Christ. This cannot be Israel, because Israel, and the twelve tribes are ruled over, not the ones ruling. Only the Bride “will rule and reign a thousand years with Christ”

      The "Woman" of Revelation 12 is Israel. The Man-Child is Jesus Christ. Want me to prove you wrong again? O.K.

    I'll point out that your theory crashes and burns itself.

    You claim the Woman of Revelation 12 is the Church. The Woman is not caught up to the throne of God but goes into the wilderness for 1260 days during the second half of Daniel's 70th week. If the Woman were the Church she should have been caught up with the man child. It seems you consider the Manchild to be the church. But you said the Woman was the Church so how can the Church give birth to itself? It makes no sense.

     Your theory crashed try mine:

    Lets start with this:

Revelation 12:  "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

     Now let the Bible interprete for you:

Genesis 37:9  "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

    This was Josephs dream. Notice how many stars, 11, why? Because Joseph was the 12th Star. The Bible is teaching that the 12 stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel.

     The Woman is Israel, the remnant. She gave birth to the Man-Child Jesus Christ who will rule all nations with a rod of iron. Jesus was Baptized by the Holy spirit which decended like a dove upon him at the "BIRTH" of His ministry. He was caught up to the throne of God 3 years later, MANCHILD.

     The Woman (remnant of Israel) will flee to the wilderness at midweek of Daniel's 70th week. She will remain there until the second coming of Christ to establish His kingdom. She never is Raptured but divinely preserved.

 Revelation 12:17   "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

      The remnant of her seed are the Tribulation Saints converted after the Rapture during the first half of Daniel's 70th week. Mid Tribulation Rapture doesn't allow time for conversion. If the Rapture is midweek, and Antichrist and Satan persecute the remnant of her seed for 1260 days who got converted? Pre-Tribulation Rapture allows 3 1/2 years for the world to be converted before Antichrist beheads believers. Mid Tribulation allows no time for conversion.

    Your theory has crashed and burned. It contradicts itself.
 It contradicts Scripture. The Sun, Moon, and Stars have been shown in Scripture to represent Israel.
Not "Spiritual Israel" but JEWISH ISRAEL.

     The Woman is Israel, the Manchild is Jesus.

    Thats the second time I've proven you wrong with Scripture. Your own theory doesn't work and now I've shown you why.

      I'm winning 2 to 0 on the proven wrong scoreboard.

      You better hold off on the book for a few.

     Its nothing personal, you just hitched your wagon to a lame horse so to speak.

                                  The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2

[Paul2]

Ok, someone tell me where is the last trump of I Cor15:52?

And don't use Matthew 24, because it's the second coming of Christ with His saints to earth, everyone knows this.

Where is the last trump and use scripture only.

That's your challenge.

Michael

   
    Heres a challenge for you, use scripture only and prove the woman in Revelation 12 is the Church. I can use Scripture only to identify her as Israel.

                                                   Paul2

[Bronzesnake]

Paul2.
That "woman & Twelve Stars" post was great!...a knockout punch to "mid-trib"
I have sent you an instant message. e-mail me back if you would.

[prophecyjax1]

Paul,

The Man child of Revelation chap 12 is the Bride, I never said it was the Chuch. The Bride comes out of the Church.

Revelation chapter 12 is referring to the Church, not the Jews or Israel. You argue that because Revelation 12:1 says that the woman has upon a head a crown of twelve starts, that this is Israel. But Israel does not give birth to a “man child” (The Bride: Rev 12:5), only the Church does. How can we conclude this? Once again, only the Bride of Christ has the honor of ruling with Jesus for a thousand years, and the Bride comes forth out of the Woman in travail, (the Church), not Israel. Jesus will award “His Saints,” allowing us to be next to His side, with a rod of iron, to help rule over the nations. Jesus said in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:28-30 that the twelve tribes of Israel will be ruled over. Also notice the following verses, which reveal the honor God will give us saints for being faithful.

Psalms 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Psalms 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
Psalms 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
Psalms 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

The saints and faithful brethren from the Church will execute judgment and justice with Jesus during the 1000-year millennium reign. The Bride of Christ will be granted authority over the nations. During the 1000-year reign, the Kingdom of Heaven will be here on earth, there will be cities, nations, governments, and much the same as we see today. The difference will be, that Jesus will be our world dictator, and the governments of the world He will rule! Sounds much better than a dictator like Saddam Hussein, Hitler, or Caesar! The dictatorship of Jesus will be a reign of PEACE!

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Jesus gave a parable concerning this in Luke 19:12-27 and said “Occupy till I come.” In verse 15 “when he was returned, having received the kingdom” (for 1000-years), that all the servants, which represent all of us, should come before Him. One Faithful servant was rewarded by ruling over 10 “CITIES,” and the other 5 “CITIES.”  These faithful servants come from the “woman,” the Church, which gives birth to the Bride.

So we conclude it’s the Church seen in travail during the tribulation. She will be in labor pains, and bring forth a man-child, the Bride of Christ, which is seen raptured in Revelation 12:5.

John 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

Christ was telling His disciples that they were going to have some tribulation, but that it would soon turn to joy. This applies to the end time Church that will be in labor pains during the tribulation, but once she delivers, it will turn to joy. Christ must fully be formed in us before we are counted worthy to be in the Bride, as the Apostle Paul mentions.

Also Jesus was already caught up to God a His ascension in Acts.

Micah 5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

This is a wonderful revelation, taken from brother Micah. This is a prophetic word for Israel, and at the same time, gives light about the Rapture. God will “give them up,” (meaning the veil is over Israel’s eyes), “UNTIL,” She (the Church) hath brought forth (a man child Rev 12:5), which is the Bride of Christ. Once the child is brought forth, and the Bride is raptured, “THEN,” God will deal with the Nation of Israel. God says, “until the time,” and “then.” THIS SHOWS A CLEAR DISTICTION BETWEEN "THEM," ISRAEL, AND "SHE," THE CHURCH.

By proclaiming the Church is to be raptured before the tribulation, is like saying a woman will give birth to her child before she goes into labor pains. Isaiah made this clear in scripture.

Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Isaiah says, “once travail comes, then deliverance.” He says, “Who hath hear such a thing as deliverance first, then travail?” After the Church travails for 3½ years, the Bride will be raptured.

 1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul, you miss two things. 1st that paul tells us in II Thess, that the Antichrist must first be revealed before the Rapture, and 2nd, that the Rapture occurs at the last trump.

You still have not identified the last trump and been able to deal with Paul's exhortation the the Thessalonians about not expecting an immenient return.

Yours,
Michael

[prophecyjax1]

Paul,

You still have not dealt with the reality of the Apostle Paul's clear warning.

We will return WITH Jesus at His second coming, clothed in fine linen, clean and white. As we discussed preciously, those in white are the saints that came out of tribulation. The Apostle Paul mentioned in I Thessalonians 5:2, that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. Some use this as a presumption, claiming for this to be valid; that the Lord can appear at any moment. However, as we are beginning to see, and have learned prior, that we must take this verse and combine it with dozens of other verses, to conclude that. Paul Also said in I Thessalonians 5:4, two verses later, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” We believe the Thessalonian Church may have believed an imminent return, and when Paul wrote them back in II Thessalonians, he clarified the mis-conception. When Paul wrote them back, he revealed to them that certain things must happen first, BEFORE the Rapture, as we will show. Let’s look at II Thessalonians 2:1-3 and dissect each verse for clarity.

 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

It’s very clear here, that Paul starts out by talking about the Rapture, the coming of the Lord, when we are gathered together in the clouds to meet him.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He goes on to say, not to be shaken, troubled, or confused thinking the day of Christ is at hand. Evidently there was word of an imminent return of Christ, either by his previous letter, or by others.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul says not to let anyone deceive you or tell you otherwise, because the Rapture cannot take place until there is a falling away first, AND, the man of sin be revealed. The keyword here is REVEALED! Revealed means “to make known,” or to “unveil;” “to make known something previously concealed or secret.” Scripture teaches us that the first 3½ years of the tribulation the Antichrist’s true identity will be hidden and kept unveiled. Although many believers will discern him, and know who he is, the prophetic unveiling, will not occur until the middle of the seven-year period. In the “midst” or the middle of the seven-year tribulation, the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel and show his true colors. This is when he is revealed. The Rapture cannot take place until this unveiling takes place, as Paul clarifies. To say the Antichrist is revealed, or unveiled at the beginning of the seven-year period, is not according to the Biblical unveiling as Paul continues to say.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul reveals to us the timing of the revealing! The Antichrist is “revealed” once he sets himself up as God, showing himself to be God. Daniel 9:27 is a little more specific about the true timing of this event.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

As we all may or may not know, the prophetic week of Daniel is the seven-year tribulation period, and in the “midst” or middle of this period, this is the timing of the unveiling of this man of sin. Once this occurs, the Rapture may take place. So we can clearly see the Church is going at least 3½ years into the seven-year period. The Antichrist will stop all temple sacrifices, and actually set himself up in the Jewish Temple and claim to be God. Once this occurs, as another evidence that it’s in the middle of the seven-year period, Daniel 12:11 reveals more specifics about timing.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel says once the Antichrist is revealed, there will be 3½ years left. Excellent clarity and understand is shown, by using scripture upon scripture to “reveal” to us the timing of the Rapture. Daniel 12:11 also shows us that the “revealing” has to be in the middle of the seven-year tribulation, for 1290 days will be left in time. This is clearly the last 3½ years. Now with Paul telling us the Rapture cannot take place “UNTIL” the Antichrist is “Revealed,” it’s obvious, that the Church, and the Rapture is mid-tribulation. Now let’s continue with Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Many claim that the “he” mentioned in verse 7 is the Church, and that once the Church is raptured, then the Antichrist will be revealed. But does this line up with Daniel 9:27 and the letter to the Thessalonians we just discussed? We will let you decide. Even if this was the Church, and we are to agree with this argument, the fact that the Antichrist is not “revealed” until the middle of the seven-year period, still leaves the Church well into the tribulation. So this is a weak argument, which contradicts itself. Paul was not saying two different things in verses 3 and 8. In verse 3, Paul says the man of sin must be revealed first, then the Rapture can come. But many who hold to a pre-tribulation view, claim that verses 7-8 is the Church being raptured, and when the “HE” is removed, the man of sin will then be revealed. This is a contradiction, and thus the “HE” cannot be the Church.  Also, as we previously discussed, the Church is generally referred to as a “she,” rather than a “he.” The “He” could just be God Himself, or His Angels, and He will remove His restraining power when He wishes. Regardless of who the “HE” is, we cannot ignore the fact that the Antichrist’s revealing is in the middle of the seven-year period.

Just no way to escape this, and no scripture to prove otherwise, that the Antichirst must FIRST be revealed, and the Rapture is at the last trump.

Good luck on that, or better yet, good luck fndng one verse of scripture saying the Rapture does not occur at the last trump, or that the antichirst must be revealed first.

Michael

[prophecyjax1]

Paul,

Nothing personal likewise, but I'd rather hitch my wagon to a lame horse, than believe in a vision from a 15 year old catholic girl up on a hill somewhere in 1830.

My wagon may be old, and my horse lame, but at least a mid-tribulation belief lines up with scripture, and not some bean dream by a little girl.

I'm sorry to say, but the pre-trib is a fable, a smooth story for us to want to believe, but all the true prophets in all of histor warned of things to come, when the others mocked, and denied the reality of future events.

Look at Marvin Rosenthal--a sholar who believed pre-trib, till his buddy stated asking serious questions, and he did a 3 year investagation nd changed his view. He realized he'd been dupped into a fable.

Go back to the time BEFORE someone TAUGHT you this, and then read these scriptures without pre-suppoitions, and you will see. I tell you as Paul said, "Let no man deceive you." II Thess 2.

Mike

[Paul2]

Paul,

Nothing personal likewise, but I'd rather hitch my wagon to a lame horse, than believe in a vision from a 15 year old catholic girl up on a hill somewhere in 1830.

My wagon may be old, and my horse lame, but at least a mid-tribulation belief lines up with scripture, and not some bean dream by a little girl.

I'm sorry to say, but the pre-trib is a fable, a smooth story for us to want to believe, but all the true prophets in all of histor warned of things to come, when the others mocked, and denied the reality of future events.

Look at Marvin Rosenthal--a sholar who believed pre-trib, till his buddy stated asking serious questions, and he did a 3 year investagation nd changed his view. He realized he'd been dupped into a fable.

Go back to the time BEFORE someone TAUGHT you this, and then read these scriptures without pre-suppoitions, and you will see. I tell you as Paul said, "Let no man deceive you." II Thess 2.

Mike

     Notice I never mention who came up with what theory?

    Its because different people have had different theories since the Church began. All you seem to do is spout "15 year old catholic girl" over and over.

     Forget about "your" theory on where Pre-Trib. Rapture came from and stick to facts. Your the one with the fairy tales.

     Heres something you should know. You said the Woman in Revelation 12 was the Church. People that hold that view are people who believe in "post tribulation Rapture." They use the Woman in the wilderness to justify no Rapture until the 70th week is complete. Trying to use the Church as the Woman doesn't work for Mid. Tribulation Rapture.

    The Bible used the Sun, Moon, and Stars to represent Israel and the twelve tribes in Genesis. God doesn't change the symbols He uses. People with theories change the meanings to suit their theories.

    Once again, Who is the Woman of Revelation 12?

    Apparently you have let someone steal your crown.

                                                         Paul2

[Drake]

[quote author=prophecyjax1
Look at Marvin Rosenthal--a sholar who believed pre-trib, till his buddy stated asking serious questions, and he did a 3 year investagation nd changed his view. He realized he'd been dupped into a fable.

Mike

Marvin Rosenthal, may have changed his view. But he did not change it to a mid-trib view. He changed it to a Pre- Wrath view. Which in my opinion fits perfect with scripture.
I haven't read all the post here and it is hard to just jump into the middle of things.

Quote from Paul:
Revelation chapter 12 is referring to the Church, not the Jews or Israel. You argue that because Revelation 12:1 says that the woman has upon a head a crown of twelve starts, that this is Israel. But Israel does not give birth to a “man child” (The Bride: Rev 12:5), only the Church does. How can we conclude this? Once again, only the Bride of Christ has the honor of ruling with Jesus for a thousand years, and the Bride comes forth out of the Woman in travail, (the Church), not Israel. Jesus will award “His Saints,” allowing us to be next to His side, with a rod of iron, to help rule over the nations. Jesus said in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:28-30 that the twelve tribes of Israel will be ruled over. Also notice the following verses, which reveal the honor God will give us saints for being faithful.

In my opinion you are wrong in your interpretation of Revelation 12:5.  And she bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and to His throne.  

This is not speaking of the church as you have said.
This verse speaks of Jesus Christ in His incarnation was of Jewish descent (Matt.1:1; 2 Tim.2:. Despite Satan's efforts to distroy Israel and the messianic line, Jesus' birth took place as predicted by the prophets (Is. 7:14; 9:6; Mic.5:2).
rod of iron Describes Jesus' cornation as King over the nations of the world (11:15; 19:15; Ps. 2:6-9)
her Child was caught up to God. Christ's ascension is in view (acts 1:9; 2:33; Heb.1:1-3;12:2).

Quote from Paul:
So we conclude it’s the Church seen in travail during the tribulation. She will be in labor pains, and bring forth a man-child, the Bride of Christ, which is seen raptured in Revelation 12:5.

We have not came to such a conclusion. That is your false interpretation of the scriptures.

[Drake]

After rereading some of the posts I see I Have miss quoted and said that Paul said that chapter 12 of Revelation is the church But It was Prophecyjax1 that Said that.

So I apologize to you Paul

[Paul2]

After rereading some of the posts I see I Have miss quoted and said that Paul said that chapter 12 of Revelation is the church But It was Prophecyjax1 that Said that.

So I apologize to you Paul

      Thanks, I was just about to quote you and show you it wasn't me who said that but you all ready know now

                                                         Paul2

[Paul2]

Paul,

The Man child of Revelation chap 12 is the Bride, I never said it was the Chuch. The Bride comes out of the Church.

Revelation chapter 12 is referring to the Church, not the Jews or Israel. You argue that because Revelation 12:1 says that the woman has upon a head a crown of twelve starts, that this is Israel. But Israel does not give birth to a “man child” (The Bride: Rev 12:5), only the Church does. How can we conclude this? Once again, only the Bride of Christ has the honor of ruling with Jesus for a thousand years, and the Bride comes forth out of the Woman in travail, (the Church), not Israel. Jesus will award “His Saints,” allowing us to be next to His side, with a rod of iron, to help rule over the nations.

     Lets deal with the mistakes found in your above post.

   Let me point out what your really saying here. The Woman of Revelation 12 is the Church so you say. The woman (church) gives birth to the ManChild( the Church) which is the Bride (church).

    Thats what it really states above. So according to you the Church (woman) gives birth to the Church (ManChild) which is the Church (Bride).  This makes no sense what so ever but theres more facts to add in.

So according to you the Church (woman) gives birth to the Church (ManChild) which is the Church (Bride). And then the Church (bride) is Raptured which started of as the Church (ManChild), and the Church (woman) goes into the dessert for 1260 days.   Boy oh boy look at all the Churches!!

     We have a Woman Church giving birth to a Manchild Church somehow transforming into a Bride Church being Raptured while the Woman Church goes into the wilderness for 1260 days of the last half of Daniel's 70th week.

(in the voice of Jim Carey)  ALL RIGHTY THEN!

   prophecyjax1 quote:
  "You argue that because Revelation 12:1 says that the woman has upon a head a crown of twelve starts, that this is Israel."   Yes I do!
 
   prophecyjax1 quote:
    "But Israel does not give birth to a “man child” (The Bride: Rev 12:5)"  Wrong, Israel Gave Birth to Jesus Christ who is the ManChild.

      You have everybody being the church except Satan, and the funniest part is the Church is not involved in any of this.
 
     See my next post I'll try to make it clear enough for you to see it.

                                         The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2