Blain, what you just explained is consequences we pay on earth. Did you sense what purgatory is through the bible or the catholic doctrine?I'm lucky that I didn't have the catholic doctrine to interpret the bible for me. Since I became born again, I just read the bible everyday and believe it. Then I don't have to believe by rote or memorizing what someone taught me to believe. I only believe what makes sense with the rest of scripture as discerned by the Holy Spirit.

yes purgatory was first understood through catholic doctrine when i was a non catholic. of course i rejected it then as you do based on lack of scriptural support. but then as i was investigating some concepts of hell i found that the concept actually comes before the church, in rabbinical teaching so it was not a matter of catholic invention. as time went by i realized that i may not have understood the concept of purgatory without the teaching of the church, like i would not have know what the bible was, without the church. not only that but the tradition the church appeals to is one that understood things we cannot understand today because we are removed from the culture they are written in. in other words the concept of purgatory really is a scriptural concept, but we have been taught, you and me, that it is not.

btw even if i still believed like you that i am my own personal pope, i would be in disagreement with you.... that is the sad fact of being a protestant.

i would not have understood the concept of the millenium or the rapture from just a surface reading of scripture. i would not have ever gotten the concept of reading scripture everyday and "sensing" what it tells me. i would not have gotten the mentality of being "born again saved" or faith alone, or dispensationalism, or about half a dozen other concepts prevalent in the protestant church today.  if i were to read the scripture and "sense" anything it would probably be to find a church with apostles in it.

but let me ask you something.... when paul went to the bereans "who most certainly were noble" what scriptures do you think they appealed to when paul brought to them the new teaching that circumcision was useless? tell me this did the bereans get it from the bible or the church?

mike

According to the Handbook for Today’s Catholic, page 47, "If you die in the love of God but possess any ‘stains of sin,’ such stains are cleansed away in a purifying process called purgatory. These stains of sin are primarily the temporal punishment due to venial or mortal sins already forgiven but for which sufficient penance was not done during your lifetime."
     The Catholic Catechism, paragraph 1030, says that purgatory is for "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
     Among the many doctrines that Catholicism claims to be derived through Sacred Tradition, purgatory is one of the most interesting and puzzling, particularly to a Protestant. In light of the Pauline doctrine of justification by grace through faith, how is it possible that an afterlife cleansing through punishment is necessary for a Christian who has trusted in Jesus to cleanse him from all His sins? Wasn't Jesus' punishment for our transgressions sufficient? Didn’t He take our place in that He suffered our death? It would seem that the words of Christ, "It is finished," (John 19:30) do not mean that the cleansing of our souls was completed on the cross.
     Of course, Roman Catholic doctrine states that eternal life is bestowed upon the one who receives baptism (Catechism, par. 1265 - 1266, 1992). It is the stains of the sins committed after baptism and not removed through penance, good works, prayers, the Mass, etc., that are removed in the fires of purgatory (Handbook for Today's Catholic, page 47).

thank you for posting this.


 

  In light of the doctrine of justification by faith (Rom. 5:1), where Jesus bore all of our sins, purgatory would seem to have no theologically justifiable right to exist.

actually as noted above pergatory really doesn't even come into conflict with being justified by faith. as mentioned above the sins have been forgiven and salvation is assured. so justification doesn't come into play here at all.  what is at stake is the concept of penance.

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

But the Bible alone is not appealed to by Catholic theologians in support of Purgatory. By far, the main support for Purgatory is found in the Catholic doctrine of Sacred Tradition.

this is mainly because the tradition of the church predated the canon of new testament scriptures.... as a matter of fact it is this same tradition that defined the sacred scriptures.  

the concept of purgatory actually comes from the jewish concept of gehenna:

Only the very righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom (guh-hee-NOHM) (in Yiddish, Gehenna), but sometimes as She'ol or by other names. According to one mystical view, every sin we commit creates an angel of destruction (a demon), and after we die we are punished by the very demons that we created. Some views see Gehinnom as one of severe punishment, a bit like the Christian Hell of fire and brimstone. Other sources merely see it as a time when we can see the actions of our lives objectively, see the harm that we have done and the opportunities we missed, and experience remorse for our actions. The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place on Olam Ha-Ba.

but there is still scriptural support for the doctrine.

1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  
 1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  
 1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  
 1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

this verse clearly shows that if we do not build (work) properly we shall still be saved (justified by faith) but that we also go through fire (purgatory).  

Nevertheless, what does the Bible say about justification, punishment, and our sins? They are cleansed, they are purifed by the death of Jesus Christ.
     Jesus bore our sins in His body, paid the penalty for them, and died. He said, "It is finished." In Greek, the phrase, "It is finished" is one word, "tetelestai". In ancient Greek (Roman?) papyri texts that were receipts for taxes, when a debt was paid in full, the word "tetelestai", was written on the document. This meant that the debt had been paid in full. In other words, Jesus had finished the work of atonement. But not only atonement (to make amends, to make right), but also of propitiation (turning away God’s wrath). He had fully paid the debt invoked by the sinner. There was nothing more to be done... It was finished.

this is true but it has nothing to do with purgatory.

we are saved, being saved and shall be saved. yet we still suffer.

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

paul says there is something lacking in christs afflictions? do you think he is contradicting christ when he cried tetelestoi


   

Yet, the doctrine of Purgatory, in effect, is saying that we must suffer in purgatory for sins not ‘covered by baptism’ and not covered by the cross.

no! as mentioned above the sins are paid for but temporal effects are what we suffer for. don't be confused. if i murder someone god will forgive me, but what he doesn't do is get us out of jail or suddenly bring the murdered victim back to life... we still pay our penance.

It is to say that the work of Christ is not finished and that there are things we must do to complete the sacrificial, cleansing work of Christ. This amounts to earning heaven by our good works, albeit, a work of suffering.

this also is not true. if we do end up in pergatory we will not be there forever. we will end up in heaven. pergatory is not hell. the preparation we experience on earth as suffering or in pergatory are only to prepare us for the glory that awaits us. so in effect the "works" done in pergatory do nothing for our salvation...we wouldn't be there if we were not saved.

Additionally, the doctrine of Purgatory implies that a person must atone for his own sins. It implies that the person must do more than what the Law of God requires of him. This is called supererogation.

again no. christ atones for our sins.

   

 When Jesus said, "It is finished," all that was necessary in the atonement was concluded and all in Christ were justified. We cannot complete or add to Christ’s work through our suffering. Purgatory is not only unnecessary, but it contradicts God’s word.

actually paul says differently, but then he doesn't confuse the way christ  made atonement with the method that christ works in us to prepare us for heaven.

in the end the doctrine of purgatory may be the most beautiful doctrine of the church. for in it we see christ taking those that he atoned for an washing their feet, putting on their robes, cleaning them up, building them up and preparing them for the banquet.

mike

 I'm very suspicious of men who try to claim the authority of God.  Someone please read the Apostle Paul's account of how Paul learned the Gospel.  He says no one but Christ taught it to him.  And the "Catholic Church" as it calls itself today, wasn't there to ordain him or anything.  AND the Body of Christ had ALREADY been established.  Which means that Christ has the power to give authority to preach and teach, which means that Christ doesn't have to wait around for the Pope--contrary to what the Pope wants us to think.

 
Still not bowing the knee to men!  

Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

funny how paul waits to get ordained by the elders before he and barnabas go to the heathen. the right hand of fellowhip is an interesting term... but that is what sets paul apart from any other self proclaimed prophet, he appeals to the authority that christ instituted in his church.

1) the right, the right hand

2) metaph.

a) a place of honour or authority


mike

But their god is the pope whom they call their Holy Father. Otherwise they would not get so defensive when he or his title is crticized.

we get defensive for the same reason i get defensive over my children being attacked or the bible being attacked or jesus being attacked or colored people being attacked or jews being attacked. we hate injustice.

Hbr 13:17   Obey your leaders and submit {to them,} for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

i believe you mistake worshiping the pope for simple obedience to our leaders.

mike

Blain, "He who is not with me is against me." I am for anything that promotes Jesus as the ONLY way to God and against anything that says he is not or shares Him with other gods. It all boils down to good and evil. God is good, Satan is evil. I love God and hate Satan. If I am for one of them then I am against the other. It's that simple.

then you should be for the catholic church.

Of course only God can see into a person's heart! But it is  true that a person cannot worship both Jesus and the pope. It's one or the other because they are not the same person. That is a true statement, Gracey.

absolutely true. that is why catholics do not worship the pope....at all. how you came to such a conclusion is beyond me but it is entirely inaccurate. what do catholics believe about the pope? that he is a sinner saved by grace, who holds a certain office instituted by christ for the benefit of His church.  

The attitude of the poster is what I'm talking about! If he attacks people who say that Jesus is the only way to God, then in his heart, he doesn't believe that. This includes catholics, as i mentioned.

if you have a problem with people attacking people then why are you attacking people? since i have come to this board i have done nothing but try to defend the church from grossly innaccurate statemtents being made about it by those that would attack it. i have not started any thread with intent to criticize you or any other denomination, i have not tried to judge anyone elses heart even though they believe differently than me. what i have been busy doing is trying to correct the false statements that have been tossed about on this site concerning catholicism. in the end i believe that if people are to hate catholicism then they should do so, but they should not hate catholicism because of a stereotype but for what it really is.. and in the case of this post it is certainly not a religion where people worship a pope.

Why would someone disagree with someone else who says that Jesus is the only way to God? The only reason can be that the person doesn't think He is! Otherwise they would agree with each other, would they not?

the catholic church believes this.

I agree with you that there are MANY people who call themselves Christians that worship other things instead. That's why my post was a general post about the gods we worship. I included the catholics because many catholics do indeed worship the pope in THEIR HEARTS while they pay lip service to Jesus with their mouths.

you cannot know this. it is simply a judgemental prejudice. and even if it were true the fact that you have to keep bringing up catholicism shows that bit of idolatry i was refering to in my response.

This requires self honesty in each person which is not very common. The followers of David Koresh also thought they worshiped Jesus but in reality took David Koresh's word about what the bible meant. Most catholcis I know take the catholic doctrine as the gospel instead of the bible. That is why it is so important to know Christ's words and discern them with the Holy Spirit instead of having it interpreted through another medium. This is why I mentioned them in my post.

what you don't realise is that even if it just comes down to me and the bible it is still my interpretation of the bible i am counting on. so if the spirit is really in me and that is how i discern the truth of the bible then i would have to consider myself infallible. so would you. but you say that men connot be infallible as a proof against the papacy. i say that if it were up to the individual then why do all (spirit led) individuals contradict each other.

jesus gave to peter and the apostles the gift of binding and loosing. this is a term that the jews of jesus day understood as the ability to define doctrine. why would jesus have done this if it were up to the individual to interpret scripture? those by the way are christs words.

I don't know about you, Gracey, but I hate Satan. Maybe you don't. Do you understand hating the sin but not the sinner? When you do you will be able to understand true love. True love is caring about people's SOULS before allowing them to perpetuate beliefs that will lead them to destruction. That is why I'm on this forum! Jesus did that! He didn't hate the Jews, He hated evil. He called the Jews snakes and  a "brood of vipers". He was pointing out their hypocrisy which is what He hated. Not they, themselves! If your children were into drugs would you condone it or endorse it for fear they won't like you or their feelings will be hurt? Which to you, is real love?

which is why the catholic church in the end is accused of being such a horrible thing. it has upheld truth and defended agaisnt heresy. from the gnostics and philosphers of the early church to the gnostics and philosophers of the new, it has kept it's doctrinal integrity and stood against wrong teaching. unfortunately this conservative approach to religion in not well accepted in the modern world where truth is a rubberband we can stretch to fit our own personal faith.

mike

If it weren't for Purgatory...you would never make it to heaven...as your faith in Jesus Christ is not enough to save you from your sins says Rome. Jesus Christ says otherwise...

not true. if it weren't for jesus christ you wouldn't even make it to purgatory. again get your facts straight. purgatory doesn't save from sin. it purges one of the temporal effects of sins that have already been forgiven.

mike

it purges one of the temporal effects of sins that have already been forgiven.

I forgot to ask you in my above post and I was interested in this statement by you, can you please explain what "the temporal effects of sins " are?

Thanks...

temporal effects of sin falls into the concept of a just god. we sin, and because he is merciful he forgives us, but his forgiveness does not repair the damage done, it only makes our relationship with him right again.

ie. if i commit adultery and ask god to forgive me (truly repent confess etc.) he will forgive me. but because my sin has consequenses outside of myself such as my wife, children the woman i commited adultery with, etc, there is a cost apart from what god forgives. if a man is gay and gets aids... he may repents find salvation, but because God forgives him doesn't mean that he is cured of aids.. these are what indulgences and purgatory are all about. the sin is forgiven and our relation ship with christ is restored but there is still damage and consequences that result. in a way purgatory may be caried out for the most part here on earth, as we seek to restore the damage caused by our sin through penance. in the end purgatory is really a part of Gods grace as it purifies us and prepares us to see god face to face. in the end it really comes down to the concopt of god's justice... in that even adolf hitler could have repented 5 minutes before he died. god in his mercy would save him by christs blood as well as purify him and prepare him in purgatory (since all temporal justice is removed) and make him ready to stand in gods presence, without forsaking justice for the crimes commited.

as you can see purgatory doesn't pay for our sins.

mike

The motive of true Christians is to lead people to Christ alone. Anyone who worships anyone other than Christ will attack true Christians who try to lead people to Christ. This includes catholics. We are all supposed to be united in Christ. So why then do "professed" Christians attack other Christians who believe in Christ alone? What is their motive? Why would they attack any Christians who believes that Jesus is the ONLY way to God? The answer is that they obviously believe that He is NOT the only way to God, or there would be no arguments. Jesus said; "He who is not with me is againt me." We cannot be both. We either believe Jesus is the only way to God or we have another god that we worship, sometimes, in the name of Christ. Otherwise, we would ALL be united in Christ. Catholic defenders who believe that the catholic church is their god will be angry when we point out inconsistencies in the catholic church. But if their God was Christ alone, they would see that all the rest of us are mere fallible human beings. But their god is the pope whom they call their Holy Father. Otherwise they would not get so defensive when he or his title is crticized. Again, true Christians want ALL to come to Christ alone. This icludes catholics. How is this hate? Why then do the catholics argue with us when we want them to come to Christ alone? Again, "He who is not with me is against me? How can we be both for Christ and against Him at the same time? The pope and Christ are not the same person. Our loyalty is to one or the other.

idolatry is not only the worship of false gods heidi but the worship of false devils too. i can tell you that as a non- catholic it was just about part of every discussion to bring up catholicism and how bad it was. as a matter of fact i would say that most protestantism is really a mix of 90 % jesus and 10% anti catholicism. the very fact that you have this hang up with catholicism, which by the way isn't even catholicism but a stereotype, only tells me that you have a little idol called anti-catholicism.

 now the funny thing is that as a catholic for the last year i can honestly say that not once....not once..... have i been to a bible study or mass or pot luck and heard the topic shift to anti - protestantism, the cults, anti- baptists apologetics. not once had the homily focused on why these other groups are so messed up because they see things differently. no the integrity of focusing on christ had miraculously been maintained. so tell me again who is getting their focus off of christ.

an interesting point that a baptist, of all people, told me once was that the best way to keep people together is to creat a common enemy. i believe this is why evangelical/fundamentalists must constantly keep attacking a church they understand little about. for unlike the catholics they have no common creed to keep them united, unless it is the creed of anti catholicism.

and btw catholic do not thing the pope is christ. that is just plain ridiculous. you need to back up these slanderous statements before you post them.
 

Again, true Christians want ALL to come to Christ alone. This icludes catholics. How is this hate? Why then do the catholics argue with us when we want them to come to Christ alone?

the reason for this is that we don't see the evangelical religion as really giving us christ alone. apart from the anti-catholicism so foundational to its movement, there are other problems that we disagree with such as it's aparent dualistic theology. Catholics are happily overwhelmed with jesus christ in catholicism,, it is his body and blood we partake of and which is the centerpoint of all our worship. the evangelicals main focus in on a man telling us what the bible says. the climax of the mass is the sacramental incarnation of the eucharist, the climax of an evangelical service is a sermon. we go to recieve our lord, you peice together a string of unrelated scripture to support doctrines to tickle your ears.

what more can i say.

mike

Where does the bible talk about purgatory?

Jesus said; "the work of God is this; that you believe in the one He sent."  That is ALL He said. Good works come from the SPIRIT. That's why they are called THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT. According to Christ, we are saved once we are born again of the spirit. All good works are then a result of the spirit instead of trying to gain salvation.  Again, the catholic church disagrees with Christ. Once you understand Christ's words, you will understand the rest of the bible. Without believeing Jesus, one will twist the rest of the bible into anything he wants to believe.

wrong
 the catholic church does not disagree with christ, it disagrees with you. stop twisting the word of god to suit your own doctrines.

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  
 1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  
 1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  
 1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  
 1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.  

do much for being saved by faith alone.

mike

[is made present]

By the way you posted this above, take a good look:

15 The second part of the Catechism explains how God's salvation, accomplished once for all through Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is made present in the sacred actions of the Church's liturgy (Section One), especially in the seven sacraments (Section Two

This is not just faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins because of His shed blood for salvation. Salvation according to Rome is in the sacraments and actions of the church's liturgy. Without that...you are lost if you believe in Roman Catholisim.

it absolutely is faith in jesus christ. what you don't understand aparently about the sacraments is that these are all grace gifts to the church. we cannot boast about the eucharist or baptism when the only reason we do them is because christ provided such things by his death and resurrection.

Then there is Purgatory...maybe for millions of years...in firey flames of torture according to Rome...to take care of the sins that Jesus could never, ever purify you of or take from you. Read this please...Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

actually according to rome purgatory doesn't forgive sins at all. you need to get your facts straight before you start making these ridiculous statements.

If it weren't for Purgatory...you would never make it to heaven...as your faith in Jesus Christ is not enough to save you from your sins says Rome. Jesus Christ says otherwise...

not true. if it weren't for jesus christ you wouldn't even make it to purgatory. again get your facts straight. purgatory doesn't save from sin. it purges one of the temporal effects of sins that have already been forgiven.

Let's say you are a good-hearted Catholic, and you do all the things required of your church throughout life. You regularly attend Mass, you work hard to maintain sanctifying grace in your soul by being faithful, and you confess your sins to a priest when you do wrong. You are always careful to participate in the sacrament of penance after committing what you think may be a mortal sin. You do all this AND MORE, in keeping with what your church tells you. When you die, you will likely STILL have to go to purgatory before being granted entrance into heaven.

not true. a person is to be judged by god and god alone, there is not likely about it. if you need it you need it if not then you don't. if you properly understand the doctrine i think you will understand what paul means when he says "he will still be saved as through fire"

Throughout one's lifetime one could attend over a thousand Masses, and STILL die not fully purified from sin. Protestants respond that this hardly seems like the "good news" of the gospel (Ephesians 2:8-9). The doctrine of purgatory is an outgrowth of the insufficient Roman Catholic view of justification. Since only perfectly righteous people get into heaven, and since in the Roman Catholic view of justification one IS NOT absolutely and once-for-all declared righteous by God, then somehow one must BECOME perfectly righteous before entrance into heaven is granted. This happens via purgatory (among other things). From a scriptural perspective, when Jesus died on the cross He said, "It is finished" (John 19:30). Jesus completed the work of redemption AT THE CROSS. No purgatory is needed for those who trust in Christ. In His high priestly prayer to the Father, Jesus said, "I have brought you glory on earth by COMPLETING the work you gave me to do" (John 17:4). First John 1:7 says, "The blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." Romans 8:1 says, "Therefore, there is NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." We are cleansed not by some alleged fire of purgatory but by the blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:14). Jesus "Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2). It is through Jesus' work on the cross that we are made righteous (2 Corinthians 5:21). The apostle Paul spoke of his life as "not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith" (Philippians 3:7-9). It is through this wonderful work of Christ on the cross that believers are "blameless," and hence are in no need of some alleged purgatory (Jude 1:24; see also Ephesians 1:4). A key verse you will want to share with the Roman Catholic is Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering He has PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME those who are sanctified." In other words, no further purging is necessary because Christ has perfected "for all time" those who have believed in Him. THAT WHICH IS ALREADY PERFECT "FOR ALL TIME" NEEDS NO FURTHER PURGING. There is no need for purgatory for those who have truly trusted in Christ as Savior.

 

Col 1:24   Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

why is paul saying christs afflictions were not enough?

1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  
 1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  
 1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.  

apparently that which has been perfected for all time may find that perfecting through the grace of purgatory.


mike

But there's one huge idfference between our understanding. You believe the wafer IS His body instead of REPRESENTING His body. Habbukuk said; "Woe to the person who said; 'wood come to life!" We cannot get life from worldly food, only the Holy Spirit.

look if you want to start a tradition based on this personal interpretation you are 100 percent free to do so. i will continue to put my trust in Christ by listening to those he sent to teach.

I believe his words when he says 'I am the bread of life"! I also believe Paul in Gal. 2:20, when he said; For it is no longer I who live but CHRIST WHO LIVES IN ME." Was he lying? "

no he was not lying? how could you even get that from these 2 verses that are not even related.

I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you." What do you think the Holy Spirit is? Why is it synonymous with the Holy Ghost?

i haven't a clue what you are talking about? the fact that christ is in us has nothing to do with whether or not the eucharist is real or not. you are hodgepodging scriptures together in typical fundamentalist fashion.

At the last supper, Jesus instructed his disciples to "do this in REMEMBRANCE of me." Tell me, Blain, what does eating bread and dinking wine indicate we should remember?

well think about it heidi. get your bible out and look at what it says in that passage of scripture. what does he tell them to do? eat this bread and drink this cup. why? because it is his body and blood.

Why eating and drinking? Jesus made a huge point of telling us that we have to eat HIS flesh and drink HIS blood, LONG before the last supper.

sure he did, just like he made a big point about his death and resurrection before it happened.  he made a point about it because he was letting them know that he was the lamb for sacrifice. he was letting them know the truth.

I've known He is in me since the day I received the Holy Spirit. I've already eaten His flesh and drunk his blood. Communion only reminds me of that, which is Jesus's whole point.

sure he is in you, that is not in conflict with the eucharist. i was baptised before i had the eucharist. the spirit, i believe came into me then and i had not had the eucharist. i think that in the end you may just have some misconceptions about sacraments and the eucharist in general.

mike

I was once involved in the RCC...you nailed it! It did feel so "good" though didn't it. There was "God" on the alter! All the statues, the gold, the works!!! Wow! I remember working so hard, always trying...Sheesh!

It is so good to now be saved and free.

i was once involved in the rcc too. then i became born -again. after about 10 years of that i returned to catholicism. i have never felt so saved and free as i have in the last year.

mike

I take it you dont blieve Him when he said; "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the son of Man and drink his bloood, you will have no life in you." Or, "I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." Or "For I no longer live but Christ lives in me." Or, "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you." Or, "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." A child would read this passage and see that Jesus said we have to eat his flesh and believe it. Adults would say, "no he must means something else." But those of us who have Christ in us know exactly what he means!

heidi

first these verses are separated by a lot of  scripture. please keep your verses in context. as to you your initial question yes i believe...."I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the son of Man and drink his blood, you will have no life in you."  he defines what his flesh is..."I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." and he defines both at the last supper... take this bread..it is my body, take this cup it is my blood.

thus i believe the real presence of the eucharist just like christians have from the day christ initiated this sacrament.

on the other hand there were people that could not accept what christ was saying in john 6. apparently you are one of them?

mike

funny but the catholic church doesn't have these problems. as an ex-evangelical who came to many of the same conclusions you just stated, i have found the catholic church to be surprisingly rich ground for the christian life to grow.
mike

I take it you know very little of church history  

actually it was my interest in church history that brought me back to the catholic church. btw you a landmark?

mike

I see nothing wrong with the Eucharist as long as one REMEMBERS that it is Christ's body in the form of the Holy Spirit that is inside of us. The ceremony alone does not give us eteral life as some people think. It is simply a remembrance, as Christ said, of God living in us.

of course the ceremony alone does not give us eternal life. if one goes through the ceremony without believing they may be in danger of hell.  

1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

as for your claim that christ means his spirit when he says body, i thing this would be a very wrong tradition to start.

After being involved with Baptist churches for over 20 years I have made some observations. Being an Independent Baptist attending the same Independent Baptist church for over 20 years gives me some credentials to make these observations.  Understand that I love the Independent Baptists and have chosen to align myself with them for I believe a BALANCED Independent Baptist church is the most scripture work around these days, in my worthless opinion. Despite this we have our issues we need to deal with.  The list is not positive – I could list the positives but the purpose here is to point out the areas needing work.  I attend a small work and my preacher has been seeking to wean us from these characteristics for years and is still plowing up the ground.
Again, GENERALLY speaking for not all are guilty of all – some more than others.  Now, lets get on with the show!
 
1. By placing such an emphasis on soul winning (a good thing) in the preaching services many saints are suffering from spiritual malnutrition.

2. By trying to involve families with so many programs and activities during the week at church the families don’t have time to be families in their own homes where the real growth and practical outworking is to take place.

3. By trying to build big works to bring in people they compromise and lean towards worldly methods to build those big works.

3. By placing an emphasis on building big works they lose the concept of building “big” spiritual lives in their people.

4. By placing such an emphasis on world missions (a good thing) sometimes they forget the workplace and their own neighborhoods are the best mission fields.

5. By placing such emphasis on preacher led churches with large paid staffs the people in the pew think that the paid staff and the preacher are to the do most of the work of the ministry and not themselves thus the work suffers.

6. By seeking to distance their church services from the errors and false experiences of the charismatic churches the Baptist services have gone to the extreme where their services lack the excitement and the praise a corporate worship service should have.

7. By having so many children’s programs and children services during the main services families become separated during the main worship services so again the family suffers.

8. By placing such an emphasis on separation (a good thing today) they (especially Independent Baptist) have become somewhat legalistic and have forgotten the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free from the law.

9. By seeking to place an emphasis on sound doctrine the heart gets left out.

Now, these are a few that come to mind.  

Again, not all churches are guilty.  

Some are more infested than others.  I know this sounds negative but if we expect to be what God has called us to be then we need cleansing. I remind you – my own church has been guilty of the above and still is but we are striving to work these issues out with the aid of a preacher who is concerned for his people and the work of the ministry.

May God bless

funny but the catholic church doesn't have these problems. as an ex-evangelical who came to many of the same conclusions you just stated, i have found the catholic church to be surprisingly rich ground for the christian life to grow.

mike