A very wise man once said "never take personal offense at someone elses ignorance". I think that applies in this case.
  You have a wonderful day.

this is from another website, but i thought it was appropriate.

Another satisfied Catholic!

One of my readers writes:

When I converted to Catholicism, it was the statue worship that appealed to me the most, but banner worship has its appeal as well. Historians have been able to show that pagans also worshipped primitive banners so either one has authentic Catholic-pagan connections.

I also liked that I didn't have to read the Bible any more and that I would have to earn my way to Heaven. Besides that, I really appreciated the fact that I could check my brain at the door and blindly follow the leaders.

A really cool part of Catholicism is that now I can commit all of my favorite sins and then go to Confession right before I go out and do them again!! Actually, while I was Protestant, I guess I did that too, but without the Confession part. But sitting in that little room just feels so holy, especially with the statues nearby.

Then at Mass I usually get to listen to my favorite song, "On Eagles Wings" though I must admit I don't like it now as much as the first 67,000 times I heard it. The cannibalism aspect, I have to admit, grosses me out a little, but I comfort myself by knowing that it is a false doctrine anyway and so it is only really bread.

I know exactly how you feel. For me, it's the chance to worship Mary and adore her as the Creator of Almighty God that is so appealing. And, of course, I really love knowing that salvation is completely up to me and my righteousness apart from the grace of God. Also, the deep pride I feel in the Church's many Inquisitors, cold-blooded killers, persecutors, perverts and criminals was a big draw. Some people think this is problem, but I frankly have no idea what they are talking about. I am aware of no commands of God against these things because, of course, I never read the Bible.

Which reminds me: I just *love* adding absurd human traditions, myths and legends to the pure word of God. Also, I get a real kick out of enslaving myself to little rules and regulations so as to chain myself with fear and cut myself off from the love of God.

If *you're* an ignorant benighted Catholic like me, feel free to add your favorite spiritually crippling legend, lie, or practice to the pool. The more the merrier! That's what makes enslavement to the traditions of men and blindness to the saving gospel of Jesus Christ fun!
posted by Mark Shea at 5:16 PM


anti catholicism is like don quixote fighting windmills...

mike

Gal., 2:20, "For I no longer live, but Christ lives in me." Read the last several pages of the gospel of John, Nick. "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you." Habbukuk said, "Woe to the person who says; 'wood come to life!'" You cannot get life from a worldly ceremony, or worldly items. Christ is alive and well and dwells in the bodies and hearts of His believers. All you have to do is BELIEVE HIS WORDS. If you want to believe ALL of his words, you also have to believe him when he said; "I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that came down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I AM THE LIVING BREAD THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD, HE WILL LIVE FOREVER. THIS BREAD IS MY FLESH, WHICH I WILL GIVE FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD." He goes on to say, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and i will raise him up at the last day." Once you BELIEVE this, you will understand what communion represents. You have to take into consideration ALL of his words, not just one passage.

precicely  you have to take into account all his words, which is why the concept of the real presence  has been taught from the beginning. every thing you just posted only support the real presence in the eucharist. oh verbatim.

mike

The wine and bread represent Jesus's body. Jesus was sealing the covenant of His body, given for us. He had not died yet so no one could eat His flesh and drink His blood while He was alive. Since none of his words contradict each other, when taken in conjunction with His words that He is the bread of life, all who eat His flesh and drink His blood will inherit eternal life, the bread and wine are to be done in remembrance of Him. Receiving His body inside us in the form of the Holy Spirit is literally eating His flesh and drinking His blood. I was accused of not passing on Christ's words. Again, I believe every word He said.

how can you say you believe every word he said when you just explain away every word he said? you say that the bread and wine were not his flesh and blood but he says it was. you say the body in us is the holy spirit but i cannot find scriptural support for this anywhere. show me where in scripture it says the body of christ is the holy spirit. otherwise you are a false teacher.

mike

Sorry, Nick, but I'm actually the ONLY one here who is passing on Christ's words EXACTLYas they were written, "Do not call anyone on the earth 'father'." Period. Amen.  I believe those words. It is others, rather, who are trying to change those words into something else, especially the catholic church! I also am passing on the words "And do not call anyone on earth 'teacher, for you have only one teacher." Once again it s you who are trying to change His words. I believe them verbatim!

so you believe this verbatim??

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.  


 Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;  


 Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.  

mike

I really don't believe he has a clue of what I'm talking about. It wasn't meant in a mean tone, but a factual tone. It was simply an acknoweldgement of reality. I have explained this over and over and over again in the tone you described to no avail. Then it hit me, that he doesnt' understand at all what I've been saying. That's when I use capital letters to emphasize what I used to describe in the terms you have described. If you condiser me teaching to bible students, do bible students endlessly tell their teachers that they're contradicting themselves? How long do you think a "teacher" will put up with that?

are you refering to yourself as a "teacher"?


Mat 23:8   "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
Mat 23:9   "Do not call {anyone} on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
Mat 23:10   "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, {that is,} Christ.
Mat 23:11   "But the greatest among you shall be your servant.


this verse says we shouldn't call men teacher, father or master. you are trying to be a teacher but it says that One is our teacher...are you trying to be that One?

see this is where the whole argument falls apart... christ here is really trying to show us that the greatest among us shall be our servant, which is what the catholic priesthood is all about service.

mike

Yes. The RCC doctrine is worse than that of the Judaizers.
Appropos to that, why isn't the eucharist "CANNIBALISM?"

aw

gosh i can't believe i am even responding on this thread....heidi and aw are just a rash of accusations without thought.

however i just wanted to point out that there was a claim that the catholic church was a cult because a cult tries to focus on a man, then we see aw comment on the eucharist..  

now here is the dilemma... the whole point of the mass is to recieve the eucharist, which to a catholic is the body and blood of christ. it is the centerpiece, the climax. the whole point of protestant worship is the preacher preaching a sermon. I think if there is any chance of being a cult it is those that go to hear a man that should be cautioned and not those that are getting a piece of bread and drink of wine. The catholic can go to any catholic church to worship, many protestants have to hop around till they find a preacher that gets them excited.

for you protestants that do not do this, my apologies. i was a protestant for 10 years and know many fine and outstanding brothers and sisters in the lord.  i have also watched hundreds of people come and go because the preacher wasn't preaching what they wanted to hear...even though it was from the bible.

mike

Now...to dive in. I am a Christian, though I do not attend Church. I believe that God is everywhere-in the world, in the eyes of people, everywhere. I do not feel the need to commune with the Lord in a community-I find strength in His presence alone. I am also a scientist at heart, although I see no reason why, for instance, God could not have created the Big Bang which began the Universe, or the process of evolution.

I believe that God could have created the big bang and used evolution as a means to bring about life on earth. Other christians do not, and still other are in between. I personally don't think that the way god did it is important to ones faith.

With that said, I do believe that such things as going to church and reading the bible are important. Can you still know God apart from this? Sure why not, God is big and ultimately it is He that will judge you,,, not me or any other person on earth. But, here is the point, what does your conscience tell you? If you know that you should do something and don't do it that may be a grave error on your part. If you are not certain or don't honestly believe that you should, I think God takes that into account. The problem of hypocrisy may turn many people who would have come, away. I think God is aware of that.

My rant is simple. I have friends who are similar to me, and we have all shared the same experience. Other Christians have told me that I am not Christian if I do not attend Church or regularly read the Bible. Others like me have gone to Church, and when they attempted to participate, were shunned by their Christian friends.

why were they shunned?

This attitude is a hypocritical of what is taught of God and his love for all of his people. As I've delved deeper, I've found more hypocrisy. The idea that Christians who attend Church and regularly read the Bible are somehow more devout, or believe "more" than Christians who don't is rife in many areas, according to those I've spoken to. So why is this? I don't know where I'm going with this, so reply as you wish.

I hope this comes off right. I believe that hypocrisy is common to all of us, religious or not. The fact that we find hypocrisy in the church, priest, pastor, evangelist, layman, should not surprize us at all, especially when part of our beliefs about christianity revolve around the idea that all have sinned. I am a sinner, saved by grace. I will at time be a hypocrite, a liar, angry, manipulative, though i would say that i don't have a problem with any of these (did i mention prideful?). I guess what I am getting at is that it may be part of Gods way of dealing with us. The church, the body of christ can nourish us and strengthen us not only in the positive things it provides, such as teaching, sacraments, fellowship, and of course pot lucks, but I think it also strengthens us in the negative aspects as well. To stand next to the hypocrite may teach us to be humble, it may give us opportunity to love those that hurt us, or accuse us or shun us. It may be the only way to really learn how to love.

mike

The Bible very clearly talks of twelve various baptisms. They are as follows:



1.) Christ baptizing with the holy Spirit
(Mat.3:11; Acts 1:4-5; Acts 11:15-16)
2.) The holy Spirit baptizing into the Body of Christ
(Col.2:11-12; Rom.6:3-4; 1 Cor.12:13)
3.) Death Baptism
(Luke 12:50; Mat.20:22-23; Mark 10:38)
4.) Fire Baptism
(Mat.3:11; Luke 3:16)
5.) the typical baptism of Noah’s Ark
(1 Peter 3:13-21). Note that the occupants of the ark did not get wet.
6.) Baptism for the dead
(1 Corinthians 15:29). Note this is the verse Mormons use to support their view on baptism for the dead.
7.) Baptism unto Moses
(1 Cor. 10:2). Note again, these who were baptized "in the cloud and in the sea" went across on "dry ground" according to the Exodus account; their baptism was apart from water. This is obviously not a "water baptism" for Israel crossed the Red Sea on "dry ground" (Exodus 14:22). Pharaoh and his army, were the ones dipped into the water as it crashed down on them in divine judgment. However, it was Israel who was said to have been baptized. Hence, this was a dry baptism!
8.) Divers baptisms of the law
(Heb.9:10; John 1:25)
9.) Traditional Jewish baptisms (not part of the law, but became man made law)
(Mark 7:1-9)
10.) John’s baptism of Israel for the remission of sins
(Mat.3:6-16; Mark 1:4-9; Luke 3:3-21, John 1:23-28; etc.)
11.) Christ’s baptism by John to fulfill all righteousness
(Mat.3:14; etc.). Note, the Lord states it was necessary, not that it was for a testimony.
12.) Pentecostal baptism for the remission of sins
(Acts 2:38; etc.)

with the exception of baptism for the dead which not much is really known about, i think all the baptisms are really getting to the same thing. whether the types that are used to show what baptism meant to the early christians or the different ways of expressing the regeneration that takes place in baptism it all comes down to the fact that it is a sacrament. something real is happening, grace is made available through it, we receive the holy spirit, sins are washed away.. it is what it means to be born again... after all we cannot go back in out mother womb.... can we?

mike

YOU BRING THIS UP ALOT WHAT RELIGION BELEAVES ITS BY WORKS

I think you already know the answer.

i know its catholics , but my catholic friends dont think like that. thats why im confused.

hi butcha

don't be confused.. if your catholic friends don't act like that then they simply are not like that, and that is that. i have heard thousands upon thousands of attacks made against catholicism and after entering the catholic church i can only assume that there are a lot of liars out there in the protestant world, because it just aint like they say it is.

mike

YOU BRING THIS UP ALOT WHAT RELIGION BELEAVES ITS BY WORKS

I think you already know the answer.

i know its catholics , but my catholic friends dont think like that. thats why im confused.

I have had a lot of roman catholic friends, most of them are now ex-roman catholics. I have been used to lead them to the Lord. When they become Christians they leave the roman religion.


Thank You Jesus

Brother Love

   <))><

wow great! i have been helping many people who have been mislead by people like you come back to the church, and even bringing a few who have never been catholics along too.

mike

[that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ]

For those who may still think their 'good works' have some part in their redemption (as though they could add to the life, death, burial and resurrection of the Son of God in their place), the word of God is plain and clear:

most catholics and people besides catholics who believe that christians do work understand the work as something prepared for them by god. there is no boasting, only that we are accused of boasting. the only ones i know that boast are those that boast about not doing works... go figure.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Galatians 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
II Timothy 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, Romans 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

catholicism is not in conflict with any of these verses. it is sad that you think so.

i have a feeling though that you are in conflict with these.

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

(the only place in the bible you will find faith and alone in the same sentance.)

mike

The Church is often accused of having “traditions of men” but the accusers often miss this essential point:

'The Church' ....? Do you mean the Body of Christ? Or do you mean the Catholic church?

Yes.

ROFL! But I've never heard of the Body of Christ being accused of it nearly as often as the Catholic church....

You haven't been listening then. While most "christians" are busy trying to blast the catholics they never realize how damning their own arguments are to themselves (if they would only apply it thatway). go to an atheist  board sometime, and you will find that your arguments against catholicism are the same arguments they use against you. Anyway the very fact that you believe the bible, something penned by men, is enough to show that the accusation holds true, there is nothing that you or any other christian believes that is not understood traditionally. Your bible, your theology, your form of worship, have all been adopted from the teachings of men.

mike

[Do this in memory of me]

Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God...(1Co 1:1)

For I received from the Lord that which also I delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night in which he was betrayed took bread. When he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "Take, eat. This is my body, which is broken for you. Do this in memory of me." In the same way he also took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink, in memory of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. (1Co 11:23-26)

As they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks for it, and broke it. He gave to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, "All of you drink it, for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins. But I tell you that I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on, until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's Kingdom." (Mat 26:26-29)

He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, for I tell you, I will no longer by any means eat of it until it is fulfilled in the Kingdom of God." He received a cup, and when he had given thanks, he said, "Take this, and share it among yourselves, for I tell you, I will not drink at all again from the fruit of the vine, until the Kingdom of God comes." He took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and gave to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in memory of me." Likewise, he took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. (Luk 22:15-20)

Most certainly, I tell you, he who believes in me has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh." The Jews therefore contended with one another, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don't have life in yourselves. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he who feeds on me, he will also live because of me. This is the bread which came down out of heaven-not as our fathers ate the manna, and died. He who eats this bread will live forever." (Joh 6:47-58)

Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly, I tell you, it wasn't Moses who gave you the bread out of heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to him, "Lord, always give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. (Joh 6:32-35)

Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water." The woman said to him, "Sir, you have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. From where then have you that living water? Are you greater than our father, Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself, as did his children, and his livestock?" Jesus answered her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." (Joh 4:10-14)

Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water." But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn't yet glorified. (Joh 7:37-39)

As they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had blessed, he broke it, and gave to them, and said, "Take, eat. This is my body." He took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave to them. They all drank of it. He said to them, "This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many. Most certainly I tell you, I will no more drink of the fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it anew in the Kingdom of God." (Mar 14:22-25)

The cup of blessing which we bless, isn't it a sharing of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, isn't it a sharing of the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf of bread, we, who are many, are one body; for we all partake of the one loaf of bread. Consider Israel according to the flesh. Don't those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? What am I saying then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? But I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God, and I don't desire that you would have fellowship with demons. You can't both drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You can't both partake of the table of the Lord, and of the table of demons. (1Co 10:16-21)

are all these verses talking about the same thing? or are they all talking about different things.

Do we physically drink the Holy Spirit?

does the verse imply physically drinking? i don't think so.

Did they actually drink the blood of Christ while He still sat with them?

if you take the bible literally then yes, if not then yes or no.

Do people who sacrifice to demons actually drink out of the demon's cup?

apparently they do. i myself have never sacrificed to a demon so i am not familiar with any of their teachings.

Jesus says to "Do this in memory of me".

Paul gives us the simple truth of it "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."

i have to say that this really is a separate issue from whether or not it is flesh and blood or mere symbol.  either would still do it in memory of him... don't you think?

In no way does this continue any sacrifice.  Christ finished it.  We proclaim it in memory of Him.  The rest comes from man's tradition.[/i]

all of christianity is nothing but traditions.... again to believe it is flesh and blood or not are both positions based on tradition. the old churches had a tradition of believing it was real, the modern churches have a tradition of believing it is not. i would suggest finding writings from those closer to that culture to see how they interpreted such verses.

To me, the very least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ; to the intent that now through the assembly the manifold wisdom of God might be made known to the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places, according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord; in whom we have boldness and access in confidence through our faith in him. (Eph 3:8-12)


The mystery has been revealed in Christ.  The "Church" hides it again in man's traditions.

how exactly does the church hide it in their traditions. if it is a tradition to proclaim the mystery of communion then it seems that the tradition is the very thing proclaiming that mystery, ?? as a matter of fact if it weren't for the traditions there would be no reason to attack those that believe such things because it really would be hidden.

mike

The communion of the Lord's supper as revealed through the Apostle Paul in I Corinthians 11:23-26 is for members of the Body of Christ to observe "until He comes." There is no place in Scripture where the LORD'S SUPPER and WATER BAPTISM are linked together either as ordinances or as sacraments for the Church.


Brother Love

   <))><

what is the difference between an ordinance and a sacrament?

hi all i'm new to this board and this is my first post. please forgive me if jumping in too late on this thread but it was the first to catch my eye.

mike