Ways that God the Father fully resides in Christ thus making Him God.

[nChrist]

Marc_Serv Said:

In the Bible only can be found is Holy One not Holy Trinity, and if did happen that the Holy One cannot be found in the Bible maybe I may come to believe in you.
I will not gamble the Holy One to the Holy Trinity that not even God having pronounce it!

Contrary to your statement in John 5:7 it clearly says that the three bear record in heaven are holy one, not holy trinity.
Really the scriptures says that three bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:and these three are one but not trinity!

Hello Marc_Serv,

Let's just make this as simple as possible:

1 John 5:7 KJV  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Do you understand and agree with 1 John 5:7?  YES or NO

[Jemidon2004]

Pastor Roger:

Let's just chalk this one up to speaking before thinking? LOL. It's quite allright with me brother.

Cris...I will choose not to answer your question because without fully explaining it and possibly taking up 15 pages of threads, and still would not be finished explaining I cannot fully  answer that question. Sipmly because I do not feel it necessary to do so. I will simply respond with: Who knows the mind of God? I will not say for certain whether someone is or is not created to go to hell. I do know God's nature that has been revealed in Scripture, therefore I will not conjecture to make such an absolute statement because it will spark a fierce debate over calvinism and armenianism and I have read your remarks concerning calvinists, so you will come to the table with such pre-suppositions that will be impossible to respond with. Thus. I refrain from answering this question you have posed. I apologize if I have disappointed you.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

[marc_serv]

marc_serv Said:

Okay Pastor, actually I too myself don't know much about the the teaching of Servetus except in his views about the Godhead and Christ nature. I even reject some of his teachings except in his teaching about the Godhead and Christ nature.

I just quoted Servetus in his belief about the Godhead and his against in infant baptism because this was his very core teaching that cause his life. Let us focus to discuss regarding the true nature of Christ as what this my thread emphasized and not to divert the discussion to personal attacks to Servetus.

As you quoted the verse 1John 5:7, really the scriptures says that three bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:and these three are one but not trinity!

Hello Marc_Serv,

I just skimmed one article about Michael Servetus, but I didn't find anything Christian about anything he taught, most certainly including his denial of the Holy Trinity, original sin, and just about everything associated with Salvation. So, in all of the important parts, he was simply a false teacher and nothing more. So, I wouldn't understand why a Christian would choose him as an example for anything, as his teachings were NOT Christian. His teachings look much more like Islam, NOT Christian.

If you're having a problem with the term "Trinity", that simply means three. If you quote 1 John 5:7, "Holy Trinity" is just a shorter way of saying the same thing.

From Dictionary.com

   1.  A group consisting of three closely related members. Also called triunity.
   2. Trinity Theology. In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine.
   3. Trinity - Trinity Sunday.

"Triune" is the root word for Trinity, and it also means three. So, if you understand and accept 1 John 5:7, you also accept "Holy Trinity" because the two are saying exactly the same thing. If you have some sort of mental block about saying the term "Holy Trinity", just quote 1 John 5:7 and all Christians will know what you believe. However, if you reject 1 John 5:7 as being true, you would be rejecting Christianity, even more so with each belief that Servetus connected to this issue. In blunt terms, you would be completely lost. The only value I could see for the material of Servetus would be for keeping a fire going.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 3:2-3 NASB  You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

In the Bible only can be found is Holy One not Holy Trinity, and if did happen that the Holy One cannot be found in the Bible maybe I may come to believe in you.
I will not gamble the Holy One to the Holy Trinity that not even God having pronounce it!

Contrary to your statement in John 5:7 it clearly says that the three bear record in heaven are holy one, not holy trinity.
Really the scriptures says that three bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:and these three are one but not trinity!

Marc,

I don't know if you're dense or we are.  Also, it doesn't appear that English is your first language as your posts are very difficult to read.  I don't mean to discourage you from posting, but please understand the difficulty I'm having reading your posts.

There IS one God.  You are correct in that statement.  What you don't seem to understand are the personages of that one God.  There is IN one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  That's what we call a Trinity.  God manifests Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  The manifestations of God is called Trinity.  There aren't three Gods but ONE God.

I understand, you may not directly to say it but I know what you mean you came to indirect character assasination. But I am sure that you get more hard on to understand this english of mind as when I said  "and these three are one but not trinity" because you refuse to believe.

The the problem with the Trinity proponent what they say is not thesame what in thier heart. They confess by their lips that their is one God but in their hearts and mind they are polytheistic.

I may come to believe in you that indeed there was a three person of God but it does'nt mean that they simultaneously existed from eternity to eternity.

[Shammu]

During the time of 200-300 A.D. many Christians were trying to formulate and understanding of the nature of God. Tertullian is credited with being the one who coined the term “trinity.” The Nicene Creed in 325 A.D. also seemed to accept a similar view concerning God. The word trinity comes from a compounding of the word three (tri) and unity, therefore “trinity.” The concept of the trinity is generally understood that God is three persons who share one essence. If this were all that the word “trinity” meant, I believe I would be on board with its teaching. But the reason that Alexander and Thomas Campbell, John Calvin, and Barton W. Stone were so strongly against the use of the trinity seems to be twofold.

The doctrine of the trinity led to many to pray to the trinity. Instead of addressing the Father as the one we pray to and Christ being our Mediator to bring our petitions on our behalf, the doctrine led to people blending the three together so strongly that there was no distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The doctrine of the trinity has also led to the other extreme, that is, overemphasizing the individuality of the three. The doctrine of the trinity creates, I believe, too sharp of a distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. What has nearly happened is that the teaching has created an almost polytheism, that there are three separate gods that function completely without the other. Some are teaching that one should only be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and not in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as commanded in Matt 28:18-19. One of the problems with this, and there are many, is that one has created too much of a distinction as if Jesus is a separate God from the Father and Holy Spirit. But I believe the scriptures teach against this as well.

There are clear biblical teachings that tell is that there is one God. Deut 6:4 says,  “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!” Also, in Eph 4:6 we read that there is “one God and Father of all.” In Mark 12:29 we read, “Jesus answered him, ‘The first of all the commandments is: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.” Jesus understood that there is one God and taught that to those who would come to Him.

But this immediately should leave in our minds a dilemma. If there is one God, how is it that Jesus claimed to be God? This, of course, was one of the arguments that the religious leaders in Jesus’ day were using against Him. How could Jesus be God? Make no mistake about it, Jesus claimed to be God, was proven to be God, and the apostolic writers verify that Jesus is God. John 1:1-3 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” In John 1, the Word is identified as Jesus who came to earth as the light of the world. The multitudes and religious leaders understood that Jesus claimed to be God. In John 5:18, “Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.” Many other passages such as Colossians 1:15-18 and Heb 1:2 verify Jesus to be the creator and in the beginning and therefore God. Again, we must ask the question, how can it be that God is one when we see that Jesus is God and the Father is God?

From the beginning God revealed that there was more than one person that make up God. In Gen 1:1 “In the beginning God….” The Hebrew word for God is “el.” However, that is not the Hebrew word that was used when God described Himself to the world. Instead, He used the Hebrew word “elohim” which is the plural of “el.” This plurality is seen in the word more clearly in Exodus 20:3,  “you shall have no other gods before Me.” The word “gods” is “elohim.” Some suggest that the plurality of the word suggests that is denotes majesty and glory. While this may be true concerning other texts, it cannot be true here because the plurality is more distinct later in Genesis 1. This plurality can even be seen in our own English language in Gen 1:26, “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;” If there were only one person, then these words do not make sense. The sentence ought to read, “Then God said, ‘I will make man in My image, according to My likeness.” But we have already noticed that there was more than one person in the beginning. John 1:1-3 tells us that there the Word was there in the beginning, creating with the Father.

it is as good a time as any to also point out that the Holy Spirit is God also. In Heb 9:14 we read that the Spirit is eternal. In 1 Peter 1:12 we read that, the Holy Spirit was sent from heaven, yet another indication that the Holy Spirit is God. In Acts 5:3-4 we see that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit, which Peter says is lying to God. However, possibly one of the clearest texts is in 1 Peter 1:1-2, “To the pilgrim…, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.” Here we are revealed that there are three persons in God who are active in the salvation of the elect. Now, when I use the word “person,” I do not use it as if they were human. By person I am simply describing an essence with a center of intelligence that is distinct from the other.

Hope this helps you marc_serv.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Job 6:10 Then would I still have consolation--yes, I would leap [for joy] amid unsparing pain [though I shrink from it]--that I have not concealed or denied the words of the Holy One!

[Soldier4Christ]

marc_serv,

I may come to believe in you that indeed there was a three person of God but it does'nt mean that they simultaneously existed from eternity to eternity.

Are you saying that all three could not be with us all at the same time and still be one?

[Jemidon2004]

I have a question. If Paul did not believe in a "trinity" or a triune God, then why did he write in Philippians 2 this:

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Is not Paul saying that Jesus Christ is God. If that is so, then it must also be asked, did Paul believe that the Holy Spirit was God? Of course he did. Paul understood that Jesus Christ was God, the Holy Spirit was of God and that God the Father was God. Thus, three-in-one or as Colossians 2 says "For in Him dwells the Godhead bodily" Just a few thoughts.

Joshua

[marc_serv]

marc_serv,

I may come to believe in you that indeed there was a three person of God but it does'nt mean that they simultaneously existed from eternity to eternity.

Are you saying that all three could not be with us all at the same time and still be one?

I mean the three modes of God succedingly acted only in thier time of dispensations, that each of their time dispensation did acted according to their persona description. but in His persona description as God this always remain.

[marc_serv]

I have a question. If Paul did not believe in a "trinity" or a triune God, then why did he write in Philippians 2 this:

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Is not Paul saying that Jesus Christ is God. If that is so, then it must also be asked, did Paul believe that the Holy Spirit was God? Of course he did. Paul understood that Jesus Christ was God, the Holy Spirit was of God and that God the Father was God. Thus, three-in-one or as Colossians 2 says "For in Him dwells the Godhead bodily" Just a few thoughts.

Joshua

Colosians 2 the verse you qouted only prove the Oneness teaching that the Godhead fully dwells in Christ that made the three all in one in Christ.
Im very sorry to tell you Jemidon2004 that this is not the case being taught by an orthodox Trinitarian because they only believed that Jesus separetly distinct from the other two.

[marc_serv]

During the time of 200-300 A.D. many Christians were trying to formulate and understanding of the nature of God. Tertullian is credited with being the one who coined the term “trinity.” The Nicene Creed in 325 A.D. also seemed to accept a similar view concerning God. The word trinity comes from a compounding of the word three (tri) and unity, therefore “trinity.” The concept of the trinity is generally understood that God is three persons who share one essence. If this were all that the word “trinity” meant, I believe I would be on board with its teaching. But the reason that Alexander and Thomas Campbell, John Calvin, and Barton W. Stone were so strongly against the use of the trinity seems to be twofold.

The doctrine of the trinity led to many to pray to the trinity. Instead of addressing the Father as the one we pray to and Christ being our Mediator to bring our petitions on our behalf, the doctrine led to people blending the three together so strongly that there was no distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The doctrine of the trinity has also led to the other extreme, that is, overemphasizing the individuality of the three. The doctrine of the trinity creates, I believe, too sharp of a distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. What has nearly happened is that the teaching has created an almost polytheism, that there are three separate gods that function completely without the other. Some are teaching that one should only be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and not in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as commanded in Matt 28:18-19. One of the problems with this, and there are many, is that one has created too much of a distinction as if Jesus is a separate God from the Father and Holy Spirit. But I believe the scriptures teach against this as well.

There are clear biblical teachings that tell is that there is one God. Deut 6:4 says,  “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!” Also, in Eph 4:6 we read that there is “one God and Father of all.” In Mark 12:29 we read, “Jesus answered him, ‘The first of all the commandments is: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.” Jesus understood that there is one God and taught that to those who would come to Him.

But this immediately should leave in our minds a dilemma. If there is one God, how is it that Jesus claimed to be God? This, of course, was one of the arguments that the religious leaders in Jesus’ day were using against Him. How could Jesus be God? Make no mistake about it, Jesus claimed to be God, was proven to be God, and the apostolic writers verify that Jesus is God. John 1:1-3 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” In John 1, the Word is identified as Jesus who came to earth as the light of the world. The multitudes and religious leaders understood that Jesus claimed to be God. In John 5:18, “Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.” Many other passages such as Colossians 1:15-18 and Heb 1:2 verify Jesus to be the creator and in the beginning and therefore God. Again, we must ask the question, how can it be that God is one when we see that Jesus is God and the Father is God?

From the beginning God revealed that there was more than one person that make up God. In Gen 1:1 “In the beginning God….” The Hebrew word for God is “el.” However, that is not the Hebrew word that was used when God described Himself to the world. Instead, He used the Hebrew word “elohim” which is the plural of “el.” This plurality is seen in the word more clearly in Exodus 20:3,  “you shall have no other gods before Me.” The word “gods” is “elohim.” Some suggest that the plurality of the word suggests that is denotes majesty and glory. While this may be true concerning other texts, it cannot be true here because the plurality is more distinct later in Genesis 1. This plurality can even be seen in our own English language in Gen 1:26, “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;” If there were only one person, then these words do not make sense. The sentence ought to read, “Then God said, ‘I will make man in My image, according to My likeness.” But we have already noticed that there was more than one person in the beginning. John 1:1-3 tells us that there the Word was there in the beginning, creating with the Father.

it is as good a time as any to also point out that the Holy Spirit is God also. In Heb 9:14 we read that the Spirit is eternal. In 1 Peter 1:12 we read that, the Holy Spirit was sent from heaven, yet another indication that the Holy Spirit is God. In Acts 5:3-4 we see that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit, which Peter says is lying to God. However, possibly one of the clearest texts is in 1 Peter 1:1-2, “To the pilgrim…, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.” Here we are revealed that there are three persons in God who are active in the salvation of the elect. Now, when I use the word “person,” I do not use it as if they were human. By person I am simply describing an essence with a center of intelligence that is distinct from the other.

Hope this helps you marc_serv.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Job 6:10 Then would I still have consolation--yes, I would leap [for joy] amid unsparing pain [though I shrink from it]--that I have not concealed or denied the words of the Holy One!

You describe person as an essence with a center of intelligence that is distinct from the other. You mean in the three persons of God each of them possesed an intellect?

Are all of this three intellects of God are all-kowing God??

[Soldier4Christ]

marc_serv,

I may come to believe in you that indeed there was a three person of God but it does'nt mean that they simultaneously existed from eternity to eternity.

Are you saying that all three could not be with us all at the same time and still be one?

I mean the three modes of God succedingly acted only in thier time of dispensations, that each of their time dispensation did acted according to their persona description. but in His persona description as God this always remain.

Hmm  ......  "three modes of God". Now you are just starting to get the idea behind the Trinity. However to say that they were not and could not be in existance all at the same time would be to limit the power of God. If I understand you correctly this is what you are saying.

The Bible tells us that Jesus was the Word and was with God from the beginning, that He came down from heaven, at this moment Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God, and the Bible also tells us that He is God. Yet Jesus said during the time He was here on earth that the Father was still in Heaven and prayed to Him. So what you are saying is not even in line with what the Bible tells us.

[marc_serv]

Hmm  ......  "three modes of God". Now you are just starting to get the idea behind the Trinity. However to say that they were not and could not be in existance all at the same time would be to limit the power of God. If I understand you correctly this is what you are saying.

The Bible tells us that Jesus was the Word and was with God from the beginning, that He came down from heaven, at this moment Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God, and the Bible also tells us that He is God. Yet Jesus said during the time He was here on earth that the Father was still in Heaven and prayed to Him. So what you are saying is not even in line with what the Bible tells us.

Never the Oneness limit the power of God we even believed that God not only capable to manifest himself into three He could even manifest into millions. The point here if God of the millions of manifestations how many will and mind as a person of God there could be? Does it mean that one God who manifest into millions there could be a millions of different wills and minds of God. So, in the case of the Son, the Son as God only revealed the person of the Father that is the will and the mind of the Father, and not He has own personality(own will and mind of God apart from the Father.)

The distinction of the Son and the Father only take place during the Incarnation, and if John made the Word and God being distinct just because of his perception of the Incarnation that God separate himself from his humanity and it was apparent during the earthly life of Jesus because possesed a weak will to go not with the cup of calvary and  He did not know about his second coming.

About Jesus pray to God, this will be no longer happen after the earthly life of Jesus because Jesus as a Father will now come to hear the prayers of ours(see John....)
As of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God cannot be literally interpreted, no one actually saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of God, even John in Revelation saw everything in heaven but never saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of God but instead saw only Jesus with the throne and Jesus alone sitting at the White Throne judgement.

[marc_serv]

marc_serv,

I may come to believe in you that indeed there was a three person of God but it does'nt mean that they simultaneously existed from eternity to eternity.

Are you saying that all three could not be with us all at the same time and still be one?

I mean the three modes of God succedingly acted only in thier time of dispensations, that each of their time dispensation did acted according to their persona description. but in His persona description as God this always remain.

Hmm  ......  "three modes of God". Now you are just starting to get the idea behind the Trinity. However to say that they were not and could not be in existance all at the same time would be to limit the power of God. If I understand you correctly this is what you are saying.

The Bible tells us that Jesus was the Word and was with God from the beginning, that He came down from heaven, at this moment Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God, and the Bible also tells us that He is God. Yet Jesus said during the time He was here on earth that the Father was still in Heaven and prayed to Him. So what you are saying is not even in line with what the Bible tells us.

Never the Oneness limit the power of God we even believed that God not only capable to manifest himself into three He could even manifest into millions. The point here if God of the millions of manifestations how many will and mind as a person of God there could be? Does it mean that one God who manifest into millions there could be a millions of different wills and minds of God. So, in the case of the Son, the Son as God only revealed the person of the Father that is the will and the mind of the Father, and not He has own personality(own will and mind of God apart from the Father.)

The distinction of the Son and the Father only take place during the Incarnation, and if John made the Word and God being distinct just because of his perception of the Incarnation that God separate himself from his humanity and it was apparent during the earthly life of Jesus as Jesus  possesed a weak will to go not with the cup of calvary and  He did not know about his second coming.

About Jesus pray to God, this will be no longer happen after the earthly life of Jesus because Jesus as a Father will now come to hear the prayers of the believers(see John....)

As for Jesus sitting at the right hand of God cannot be literally interpreted, no one actually saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of God, even John in Revelation saw everything in heaven but never saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of God but instead saw only Jesus with the throne in final chapter of Revltion and Jesus alone sitting at the White Throne judgement.

[nChrist]

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were clearly mentioned in creation as the CREATOR.

It's really all very simple. The Holy Trinity had no beginning, and they will have no end. We are talking about ALMIGHTY GOD!

Marc, you need to read your Bible and probably use a topic index to learn and understand the truth. Maybe if you see it for yourself in the Holy Bible, you will believe it. Until then, you really need to do some Bible study for yourself. It isn't just a few verses, rather a multitude of verses, and you will need to start in the Old Testament.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 John 1:3 NASB  what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

[marc_serv]

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were clearly mentioned in creation as the CREATOR.

It's really all very simple. The Holy Trinity had no beginning, and they will have no end. We are talking about ALMIGHTY GOD!

Marc, you need to read your Bible and probably use a topic index to learn and understand the truth. Maybe if you see it for yourself in the Holy Bible, you will believe it. Until then, you really need to do some Bible study for yourself. It isn't just a few verses, rather a multitude of verses, and you will need to start in the Old Testament.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 John 1:3 NASB  what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

God also clearly says He alone the creator, how you understand alone is that plural?

I also read from the Bible this statement "unto God and to the Father", does it mean that God and the Father separately distinct?

[Soldier4Christ]

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were clearly mentioned in creation as the CREATOR.

It's really all very simple. The Holy Trinity had no beginning, and they will have no end. We are talking about ALMIGHTY GOD!

Marc, you need to read your Bible and probably use a topic index to learn and understand the truth. Maybe if you see it for yourself in the Holy Bible, you will believe it. Until then, you really need to do some Bible study for yourself. It isn't just a few verses, rather a multitude of verses, and you will need to start in the Old Testament.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 John 1:3 NASB  what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

God also clearly says He alone the creator, how you understand alone is that plural?

I also read from the Bible this statement "unto God and to the Father", does it mean that God and the Father separately distinct?

The original word used in the verse that you are referring to (Eph 5:20) is "kai" for the word "and" which can also be interpreted to  "and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet". This is not the case with the other verses that you have been given in reference to the Tinity. Take note of the same verse in the NIV:

20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So your argument based on this verse is non-existant.

Your complete argument is not about the three because even you called them the "three modes of God". Your only problem is with the word "trinity" itself yet the word Trinity can and is equal to the "three modes of God" that you also used. So it boils down to one fact and one alone .... you just don't like the word Trinity.