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Boiler room
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« on: April 14, 2003, 11:40:52 PM »

and i'm a bit confused here so if any one can answer it i'd be much obliged.

M't:5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
M't:5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


ok i have heard many people say that the law is fullfilled in Christ, well he fullfilled them on the cross.
but in that verse it tells us that Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

was the cross the fullfilment of the law or is his return the fulfilment of the law?
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2003, 02:22:03 AM »

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Boiler room and i'm a bit confused here so if any one can answer it i'd be much obliged.  M't:5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. M't:5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

1. The word *Law* is used in Scripture for both the Mosaic Law and the entire Tanach (OT), depending on the context.

2. Christ fulfilled all the just demands of the Law in His perfect and sinless life. He challenged the Pharisees and religious leaders of Israel to prove that He had broken any law, and they could not (John 8:46). So as the Last Adam Christ cancelled the sin debt incurred by the First Adam both in His life and in His death. He lived the Law for all of us.

3. Christ also fulfilled the just demands of the Law in his perfect sacrifice for sin as the Lamb of God. Since the wages of sin is death (first and second deaths) and the curse (Romans 5:6-21; 6:23) Christ paid this penalty on behalf of all mankind (Jn. 1:29).

4. Christ nailed the Law of Moses as well as the sin nature of every sinner to the cross, thus abolishing the Law and its demands altogether (Rom. 6:1-23; Gal. 3:10-13; Col. 2:14). That is why He cried *It is finished!* and the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom, thus signifying that the temple, the sanctuary, the priesthood, the sacrifices, the feasts, and the ordinances of Moses had come to an end. The four injunctions given to Gentile believers from the Law are further revealed to be incorporated into the Law of Liberty which comes with the New Covenant. The injunction to not eat blood and strangled animals [also blood] predates the Law and covers a commandment to the entire human race through Noah.

5. Christ replaced the Law of Moses with the Perfect Law of Liberty, the Law of the Spirit, the Law of Christ, the Law of Love. Every commandment is covered by ONE COMMANDMENT  -- love [agape] -- which can only be obeyed by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, since this is God's love. Love is the fulfilling of the Law (Rom, 13:10).

6. *Till all be fulfilled* speaks of the unfulfilled prophecies that are still in the Law and the Prophets (also called simply the Law). These prophecies tie in with the end-times, the Second Coming of Christ, the covenants with Israel and David, and the establishment of Christ's kingdom on earth in the New Heavens and the New Earth. Once the old heavens and the old earth are replaced, then all will indeed be fulfilled.
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Boiler room
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2003, 02:32:14 AM »

thank you sower  Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2003, 02:12:18 AM »

and i'm a bit confused here so if any one can answer it i'd be much obliged.

M't:5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
M't:5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


ok i have heard many people say that the law is fullfilled in Christ, well he fullfilled them on the cross.
but in that verse it tells us that Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

was the cross the fullfilment of the law or is his return the fulfilment of the law?

Dear BR,

You will find the church divided on this doctrine just as all others.

We can know the reason the truth of any particular doctrine is not accepted by all is because the hearts of all are not pure.

Those whose heart is not pure will twist and pervert the Truth of God in order to justify their sin in that area.

In the case of your specific question, we can then be certain those who desire to live lawless lives and love their  particular sins more than God and His Truth will use whatever they can find to convince themselves they are under Grace and not accountable for their ongoing sin.

The Law was fulfilled by Christ because through His sacrifice 2,000  years ago, He made available to all the opportunity to access the Graces of God needed by a human to obey the Law.

These Graces needed START with the born-again experience. Then, through the further cooperative efforts of sanctification between the Holy Ghost and the born-again Christian, we can obtain greater purity of heart, the mature degrees of Fruits of the Spirit, etc., etc., whereby we are supernaturally enabled to obey the Law through the Spirit and not the flesh.

But, again, those who live in lawlessness will pervert all of this and claim that the born-again experience is an end in itself, will bury their heads in the sand and refuse to face the sins of their heart, instead hardening it against God's attempts at further sanctification, and in order to validate themselves will teach others the same beguiling and perverting and robbing gospel that they claim to be truth.

Search the scriptures and see if I tell you the Truth. There are at least three that I know of off hand, that tell us the Law is fulfilled by our walking in a-ga-pe Love, which is only possible if the Holy Ghost has been allowed to mature us to the point where God's Love is perfected in our hearts.

(Many claim to walk in a-ga-pe, but they deceive themselves, picking and choosing only those who THEY decide to Love [which even the heathen do].)

Do not let others deceive you as they themselves have been, thereby losing the fulness of both earthly and eternal rewards. Who is hindering you? Not I; not the Lord.

"Be not deceived: God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that will he also reap," born-again or not.

Do not let them drag you down to their low estate, dear brother. Their idea of safety in numbers is a falsehood, and their ignorance of the Law will not be accepted as an excuse.

Blessings! bro. jim
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2003, 03:39:45 AM »

and i'm a bit confused here so if any one can answer it i'd be much obliged.

M't:5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
M't:5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


ok i have heard many people say that the law is fullfilled in Christ, well he fullfilled them on the cross.
but in that verse it tells us that Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

was the cross the fullfilment of the law or is his return the fulfilment of the law?

Boiler room,

Excellent question.

As I understand the scriptures, salvation will be offered, to any person, until the last day, as I understand it the last day includes the entire Day of the Lord period (1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth), then the heavens and the earth shall be rolled up as a scroll, and a new and heaven and earth shall be revealed.

The first covenant was made with Abraham, the law was given to the nation of Israel centuries later, together with promises to them who kept the law, the law was not given that by keeping it anyone who kept it perfectly could be saved, but that a man could examine himself to determine whether he had sinned against God, IT was and still is a SCHOOLMASTER which brings men to Christ (Gal3:24), because of the nation of Israel failed to evangelize the nations of the world in the knowledge of God; God found it necessary to annul the first that a second covenant could be made with those who are of the same faith as Abraham, these then are the true children (offspring) and spiritual children of Abraham  (Gal3:7)

Those who are saved are no longer under the *Law , (contrary to heretical teaching within the Christian community, one who is,  saved once and truly receives remission of sin and is regenerated and receives the true baptism with the Holy Spirit (Mat3:11,Lk3:16,Jhn 1:33) that person can never be die again, spiritually, because he is no longer under the law of Sin and Death (Moses Law) but under a new law the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Rom8:2) , he has been translated into the kingdom of the Lord Jesus (Col1:13), physically, he will still die, but this death, only affects the physical body.

*Christians who do not understand the teaching of scripture and confuse themselves, by disconnecting the ten commandments from the ordinances, but the facts is if you ask any Jew, how many commandments make up the Law of Moses, and they will answer upwards of 600, actually make up the Law handed down by Moses at Mt Sinai.

The breaking of the Law is still sin (1Jhn3:4), sin stands between God and his people, this is why, Jesus taught us how to pray,


After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
 (Mat 6:9-13)

That our sins would not hinder our prayers.

There are in our generation, just as there have been in all generations since Abrahams, many who seek God thru the keeping of His Law, and Gods intention is to save those who truly seek him, and the Law is like that straight and narrow road that leads home, only in this case it leads everyone who yearns for truth to Him who said;  

"I am the way,the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

And the scriptures teach;

Rom 10
4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The same that was imputed unto Abraham (Rom 3,4) when he beleived God, is imputed unto us by faith in God who raised Jesus from the dead.

Blessings,

Petro
« Last Edit: April 18, 2003, 03:53:42 AM by Petro » Logged

asaph
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2003, 01:38:16 AM »

Acts 15
5   But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6   And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7   And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8   And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9   And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10   Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11   But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12   Then all the multitude kept silence...

asaph
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2003, 03:27:23 PM »

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brotherjim -- those who desire to live lawless lives and love their  particular sins more than God and His Truth will use whatever they can find to convince themselves they are under Grace and not accountable for their ongoing sin.... But, again, those who live in lawlessness will pervert all of this and claim that the born-again experience is an end in itself,

There have been in Scripture, as there are today, some who will pervert the teachings of grace because they desire to abuse their liberty.  However, that does not mean that we should bring back the bondage of the Law. It does mean that we should exhort the lawless ones to repentance and restoration. For those who are saved and persist in sin, God has His own methods of dealing with them, and their own churches must deal with them. There is also a "sin unto death" [physical].
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2003, 04:02:28 PM »

Maybe to return to boiler's original question...
Quote
was the cross the fullfilment of the law or is his return the fulfilment of the law?

We're still in the period of "the cross", apparently--2000 years seeming to us like an extremely long time.

From Jesus' crucifixion, onward, we are in the time of the "fulfillment" of all things.

All of "these things" have not yet passed away--heaven and earth--so we are in the "sweet spot", the "eye of the hurricane", so as to speak.

'Though now it doesn't appear to be for much longer.

Thank you for your good question, boiler.
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