Questions?

[ARPEL]

Personally, I'm pre-trib.    "Blink of an eye" and the lie that everyone will believe aiding that thought heavily, along with many other reasons I'd rather not argue.  But, what I'm so pleased about is that regardless the method, one day I will be with my Jesus.

HI Allinall,

I have a friend who says "it will all pan out in the end".

Well, thats wonderful, I say, I suppose in the mean time we should all just curl up and not bring up anything which might excercise the senses to discern what is of God and what isn't.

 "Blink of an eye"

You said;

....regardless the method, one day I will be with my Jesus.  

That is the blessed hope of every believer, the only thing I would change in your statement is the word I for WE.

Dispensationalism says that "I" will be with Jesus; while those who are not like "I" ( a member of christ's church) will be going thru great tribulation here on earth, and in the end they will somehow or other rule and reign with Christ also in the end.

Paul said,

"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh."
Eph 5:30-31

This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.                                                 Eph5:32

Paul had already explained what that mystery was, which had not been revealed to the sons of men in other ages, listen closely to what he said;



If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
                                                            Eph 3:2-6

We gentiles are fellowheirs of the same body and partakers of His promises in Christ Jesus, by the Gospel.

Since dispensationalism makes distinction between those who belong to Jesus and those that do not, those who do not belong to Jesus are those faithful saints of the Old Testatment together with those who are not raptured prior to the tribulation (tribulation saints), this is one of the principle tenets of Dispensational Pre Millennialism.

Hmmm......I fail to see, how we gentiles could possibly twist the scriptures in such a way so as to call ourselves sole heirs (members of the body of Christ)of the promises, while in the same breath proclaiming that the saintly men of faith ,of the Old Testament and Tribulation Saints are not, this claim can only be made by those who are vailny puffed up, through ignorance or greatly deceived.

Here again;

Paul explained the mystery clearly in the letter to the   Ephesian's 2:11-22, consider carefully what he said;


11  ........remember, that ye being  in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Verse 19 bears repeating;

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

What has Paul said;

11  ....remember....ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, ...
called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12   ....at that time ye were without Christ, ...aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, .....strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13  But now in Christ Jesus ye ...are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
 
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments ......to make in himself of twain one new man,

16 .... that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity.

18  ....through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Notice verse 15, .........."to make in himself of twain one new man,"

It's hard to convince Christians that love Gods word,

that the two only refers to New Testament Jews and Gentiles, it is clear throughout Gods word, there are believers in the Old Testament, that belonged to Him, and they were chosen just like us, in Christ Jesus from the foundation of the world, it is His intent to gather them ALLinto one "new man".

Dispensational teaching says not so, we are his body, they are not.

Question;

Whose blood paid for the sins of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, & Moses?

Hey, if you rather not talk about it, thats fine with me, but don't be dogmatic claiming the scriptures teach modern day dispensationalism and nothing else, equating discussing the matter with arguing, I am asking for historical facts, which convinces you all of your position; don't tell me you just studied only the bible and lo and behold out came this golden calf but,  no man ever touched it.


God Bless,

ARPEL

[nChrist]

Arpel,

I'm not even slightly concerned about what you agree or disagree with me about. Read my previous post to you again.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 34:9-10 NASB  O fear the LORD, you His saints; For to those who fear Him there is no want. The young lions do lack and suffer hunger; But they who seek the LORD shall not be in want of any good thing.

[Allinall]

Personally, I'm pre-trib.    "Blink of an eye" and the lie that everyone will believe aiding that thought heavily, along with many other reasons I'd rather not argue.  But, what I'm so pleased about is that regardless the method, one day I will be with my Jesus.

HI Allinall,

I have a friend who says "it will all pan out in the end".

Well, thats wonderful, I say, I suppose in the mean time we should all just curl up and not bring up anything which might excercise the senses to discern what is of God and what isn't.

 "Blink of an eye"

You said;

....regardless the method, one day I will be with my Jesus.  

That is the blessed hope of every believer, the only thing I would change in your statement is the word I for WE.

Dispensationalism says that "I" will be with Jesus; while those who are not like "I" ( a member of christ's church) will be going thru great tribulation here on earth, and in the end they will somehow or other rule and reign with Christ also in the end.

Paul said,

"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh."
Eph 5:30-31

This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.                                                 Eph5:32

Paul had already explained what that mystery was, which had not been revealed to the sons of men in other ages, listen closely to what he said;



If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
                                                            Eph 3:2-6

We gentiles are fellowheirs of the same body and partakers of His promises in Christ Jesus, by the Gospel.

Since dispensationalism makes distinction between those who belong to Jesus and those that do not, those who do not belong to Jesus are those faithful saints of the Old Testatment together with those who are not raptured prior to the tribulation (tribulation saints), this is one of the principle tenets of Dispensational Pre Millennialism.

Hmmm......I fail to see, how we gentiles could possibly twist the scriptures in such a way so as to call ourselves sole heirs (members of the body of Christ)of the promises, while in the same breath proclaiming that the saintly men of faith ,of the Old Testament and Tribulation Saints are not, this claim can only be made by those who are vailny puffed up, through ignorance or greatly deceived.

Here again;

Paul explained the mystery clearly in the letter to the   Ephesian's 2:11-22, consider carefully what he said;


11  ........remember, that ye being  in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Verse 19 bears repeating;

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

What has Paul said;

11  ....remember....ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, ...
called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12   ....at that time ye were without Christ, ...aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, .....strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13  But now in Christ Jesus ye ...are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
 
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments ......to make in himself of twain one new man,

16 .... that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity.

18  ....through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Notice verse 15, .........."to make in himself of twain one new man,"

It's hard to convince Christians that love Gods word,

that the two only refers to New Testament Jews and Gentiles, it is clear throughout Gods word, there are believers in the Old Testament, that belonged to Him, and they were chosen just like us, in Christ Jesus from the foundation of the world, it is His intent to gather them ALLinto one "new man".

Dispensational teaching says not so, we are his body, they are not.

Question;

Whose blood paid for the sins of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, & Moses?

Hey, if you rather not talk about it, thats fine with me, but don't be dogmatic claiming the scriptures teach modern day dispensationalism and nothing else, equating discussing the matter with arguing, I am asking for historical facts, which convinces you all of your position; don't tell me you just studied only the bible and lo and behold out came this golden calf but,  no man ever touched it.


God Bless,

ARPEL

Dude.  You got all of this from the word "I"?    I am really laughing bro.  To each his own.  No harm nor foul from my perspective.  I am somewhat dispensational in my viewpoint, but I'm not so proud as to think I'm inerrant in my end-times understanding.  What I do know, is that Jesus will come for me, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, like a thief in the night, and with a trumpet blast call me home.  I'm just simplisitic enough to leave it at that, and be satisfied.  The way I figure it, if the Tribulation starts and marks of the beast are being handed out and I'm standing next to my church family on a Sunday morning facing a firing squad for refusing the mark...guess my pre-trib viewpoint was wrong!  

Listen, my point isn't as nonchalant as I'm making it.  My point is that in the end we have eternity with Jesus to figure out how many times we got it wrong, and an eternity to praise Him making us get it right.  

And all that from the word "I"...

His,

Kevin

[ARPEL]

Arpel,

I'm not even slightly concerned about what you agree or disagree with me about. Read my previous post to you again.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 34:9-10 NASB  O fear the LORD, you His saints; For to those who fear Him there is no want. The young lions do lack and suffer hunger; But they who seek the LORD shall not be in want of any good thing.

Well, whatever.

God Bless

[ARPEL]

HI Allinall

Somewhat dispensational?,  ..... Hmm I wonder what that really means?

Hey,  I think, I used to be somewhat dispensational myself, until I took it more seriously.

I can see that you have no interest in looking at this seriously, thats OK, I was just sharing facts with you guys.

Now, I am firmly non dispensational as you can see.

Later,  I am now;

"closing both eyes and shaking my head"

God Bless,

[Allinall]

ARPEL,

Somewhat dispensational?,  ..... Hmm I wonder what that really means?

That means that as far as dispensationalism goes, I'm somewhat dispensational.  I'm not hyperdispensational.  I'm just dispensational within the confines of literal, grammatical and contextual biblical exposition.  It also means that you over analyze simple statements a bit too much.  

Hey,  I think, I used to be somewhat dispensational myself, until I took it more seriously.

I can see that you have no interest in looking at this seriously, thats OK, I was just sharing facts with you guys.

Taking this seriously isn't a problem, nor am I not taking it seriously.  I'm simply looking at a far bigger picture than a man-focused "ism."  I'm looking at the end game and longing for that to be here, rather than mulling over the evidences to try and figure out just when that time will be.  I know it will be.  I'm looking for it to come.  

It's kinda like me waiting for the bus.  I know it's to come at the scheduled time.  If it fails to come when I think it should, I'll wait for it to come when it comes.  Doesn't change the fact that I'll be on the bus at some point.  Just changes my understanding of the schedule.  You strike me as the kind of fella that will wait, check his watch, recheck his copy of the schedule, and if it fails to show, check the schedule again, call the bus company and inquire, possibly even argue with the next buses driver about the previous schedules failure.  But in the end, you're on the bus.  I'm being simplistic, yes.  If you know anything about me, or ask anyone who knows anything about me, I'm far from simplistic.  However, I think sometimes we get so caught up in the in depth, that we miss the point.  The point of the resurrection isn't the timing or the how, or if we follow Dispensationalism or Covenant Theology.  It's that one day, we will be changed and spend eternity with Jesus.  I'm relishing that, rather than beating my bible to find out the path that gets me there.  Rather, I'm beating my bible to find out what being there's gonna be like!  Please, don't confuse my chosen simplicity for ignorant apathy.

Now, I am firmly non dispensational as you can see.

Cool!  I don't agree with that, but I don't have too to be your Brother in Christ.  I'm a Cubs fan.  Are you?  

Later,  I am now;

"closing both eyes and shaking my head"

See?!  We've got something in common my friend.  

[Soldier4Christ]

1Co 4:5  Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
1Co 4:6  And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
1Co 4:7  For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?


 

[ARPEL]

ARPEL,


Taking this seriously isn't a problem, nor am I not taking it seriously.  I'm simply looking at a far bigger picture than a man-focused "ism."  I'm looking at the end game and longing for that to be here, rather than mulling over the evidences to try and figure out just when that time will be.  I know it will be.  I'm looking for it to come.  

That is my point, ism's should have no place, a simple read of scripture and you take Jesus's own words at face value, not a doctrine concocted by some contradicting the Lords own Word's.

I pointed out in my discussion how modern day dispensational teaching has allowed the development of another doctrine (PreTribulationalISM) to creep into the church, contradicting Jesus at (Mat 24:21).

Refusing to accept the facts doesn't solve false teaching, and
not discussing it under the pretenses that discussion is the same as arguing is lame.

Yes, I know these secondary issues should not cause division, but just because some are blase about doctrines they embrace and use excuses of causing divisions for not discussing them, just somehow sounds shallow.


Especially if one puts himself, forth as a long time bible student.

What should be of major importance; is to love one another and one way this can be done is to point out pot holes that trip up, unsuspecting Christians, especially since there are babies who need to be helped and encouraged .

Well anyhow this is my understanding of what we should do, I am not one of those Cristians who meet a babe in Christ and say to them; Oh it doesn't matter which church you worship at, they are all the same.

Still,

"closing both eyes and shaking my head"


God Bless

See?!  We've got something in common my friend.  

[ARPEL]

By the way, I don't have any favorites in any sports, Id rather fish in the Cascades, or Sierras Nevada Mtns.

I would never pay to be entertained, it just isn't me.




God Bless

[Soldier4Christ]

ARPEL,

Whether it is intentional or not your posts are starting to take on the appearance of a condescending tone simply because someone wishes not to discuss this subject with you. This is the very reason that I myself do not normally get involved into this subject because all to often it denegrates into unchristian like behaviour coming from some otherwise very good Christians. I would suggest refraining from such rhetoric. It would aid in a much better ability to continue in the subject.

[Allinall]

1Co 4:5  Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
1Co 4:6  And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
1Co 4:7  For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?


 

Okokokok...point taken.  I'll shut up and be nice now.  

[Soldier4Christ]

Okokokok...point taken.  I'll shut up and be nice now.

 

[Allinall]

Okokokok...point taken.  I'll shut up and be nice now.

 

I reread my post in light of the scripture you posted and it seemed I was a bit on the proud side.  At least I thought so.  That wasn't for me?  

[Soldier4Christ]

Okokokok...point taken.  I'll shut up and be nice now.

 

I reread my post in light of the scripture you posted and it seemed I was a bit on the proud side.  At least I thought so.  That wasn't for me?  

Not my intention but if it was in your heart .......

 

[Allinall]

Okokokok...point taken.  I'll shut up and be nice now.

 

I reread my post in light of the scripture you posted and it seemed I was a bit on the proud side.  At least I thought so.  That wasn't for me?  

Not my intention but if it was in your heart .......

 

My argumentation was sound, but my comments seemed prideful to me ("...I'm not simplistic...").  So I suppose, God used you to make me not get argumentative and more prideful.  Thanks.