The Gospel was preached to them as well as us...

[ARPEL]

While reading the in the book of Hebrews I came across these verses;

3:15  To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16  For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17  But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18  And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19  So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
4:1  Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3  For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4  For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5  And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6  Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8  For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9  There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

The everlasting Gospel, was preached to the people in the Old Testament as well as those who now live in New Testament times.

While reading this, I remembered that God preached the Gospel to Abraham (Gal 3: and again Peter at 1Pet 4:6 says that it was needfull that the Gospel was "preached to them who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,"


If it is the same Gospel which saved the men of faith in th OT, are they not saved by the same blood of the Lamb of God?

Is it not, by faith in God who raised Him from the dead, that they of the OT were saved?

Do they of the OT belong to Christ?

If so, how come some teach, they are not members of the body of Christ?

After all didn't Jesus say;

 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:37-40

In all my years of studying scripture I have come to understand that God only has one people which He has chosen in Christ Jesus from before the foundations of the world.

Hebrews 11, makes it clear that Moses "esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt:" Heb 11:26  

Is Moses counted among those who were given to Christ by the Father?


Aren't all who belong to God and given to Christ, members of Christs body?


If not,  whose body do they belong to?



Any coments??




God Bless

[AJ]

1Co 10:1  Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. [/u]

Yes: you can't have the church without Israel, spiritually the church is Israel...we are grafted in. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Notice also how they were all baptized in the cloud and in the sea: Spirit and water.

God Bless

[ARPEL]

AJ

Thanks for your response.

the church is spiritual Isarael?

Who make up the church and is Abraham and Moses members of the church, if not   why NOT??

Some christians teach they are not.

[AJ]

AJ

Thanks for your response.

the church is spiritual Isarael?

Who make up the church and is Abraham and Moses members of the church, if not   why NOT??

Some christians teach they are not.

Yes: Abraham and Moses are part of the Old covenant church...church just means a congregation or called out ones. Abraham was likely father of the old testament church. Body of believers...we are all headed for the New Jerusalem because of Abrahams faith and the promise God gave to him.

Act 7:37  This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Act 7:38  This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Why do some saints separate the Old testament church from the new?  Because we need to read the word and get a better understanding of the covenant. Both old and new, there is a new testament church, And an Old testament church. Separated by a better covenant, but still all children of Abraham if we are of the faithful.

And yes.. Paul calls the church the Israel of God. But not all Israel are Israel, spiritually speaking...we must have faith.

Rom 9:6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom 9:32  Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone.

And the Israel of God...

Gal 6:15  For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16  And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


God bless

[ARPEL]

 Evening AJ,

Yes: Abraham and Moses are part of the Old covenant church...church just means a congregation or called out ones. Abraham was likely father of the old testament church. Body of believers...we are all headed for the New Jerusalem because of Abrahams faith and the promise God gave to him.

Thanks for giving me something to think about; are you saying that there was a Old Testament Church and a New Testament church?  

Are both of these are different one from another?

Or are they both one church?

If not what divides them?

Act 7:37  This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Act 7:38  This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Yes, I am familiar with Exodus 18:15-19, this prophet who was to come of whom Moses wrote these things is revealed to us as the Lord Jesus himself.

In fact Jesus claimed to be that prophet of whom Moses wrote in John 5:37-47 when the Jews sought to kill Him.

At Acts 7, do you suppose that Paul the Apostle was speaking of the one and only church not making a distinction between OT and NT?

I never understood that this verse was written to make a distinction between them?

To me it just points out there state at that time while wondering in the desert those forty years.

Ins.t that the context of Acts 7?

Why do some saints separate the Old testament church from the new?  Because we need to read the word and get a better understanding of the covenant. Both old and new, there is a new testament church, And an Old testament church. Separated by a better covenant, but still all children of Abraham if we are of the faithful.

"The promises were made with Abraham and His seed" ;

is what we read at Gal 3:16, and that seed is Christ

Then God confirmed this promise with a Covenant to Abraham; and we read at Heb 6:17-19

Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

You quoted Rom 9:6-7, verse 8 kind of settles it, doesn't it?

"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

So my question is this, the OT church was it not made up of children of the promise, that is to say, as you have stated; those who would come to FAITH, only; or, are you saying the OT church included all of the natural seed?

I ask this because, the law could never save anyone from the begining, neither could the blood of anumals, these could never make the doers of them perfect.

Would you agree?



God Bless

[AJ]

So my question is this, the OT church was it not made up of children of the promise, that is to say, as you have stated; those who would come to FAITH, only; or, are you saying the OT church included all of the natural seed?

I ask this because, the law could never save anyone from the begining, neither could the blood of anumals, these could never make the doers of them perfect.

Would you agree?



God Bless

Yes, those who would come to FAITH or the called of God, like i said above. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Paul also says all Israel will be saved "Romans: 11" because of the Deliverer, so there is still some mystery here as well.


God Bless

[ARPEL]

So my question is this, the OT church was it not made up of children of the promise, that is to say, as you have stated; those who would come to FAITH, only; or, are you saying the OT church included all of the natural seed?

I ask this because, the law could never save anyone from the begining, neither could the blood of anumals, these could never make the doers of them perfect.

Would you agree?



God Bless

Yes, those who would come to FAITH or the called of God, like i said above. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Paul also says all Israel will be saved "Romans: 11" because of the Deliverer, so there is still some mystery here as well.


God Bless

AJ

So if I hear you correctly, you are saying;

The OT Church in the wilderness and the New Testament Church are one in the same, made up of those who are elect, chosen holy ones of God, and heirs according to the promise made to Abraham and His Seed.

In the light, of Jesus's high priestly prayer at John 17:16 thru 20;

They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Are the elect who come out of the great tribulation brethern to these?

how about?

Joint heirs with Christ of the same promises?

Might you go this far in believing that this might be a possibility?

Or no.

Thank you for responding.

[AJ]

All i know is the ones who have faith in God are going to the same place as us... New Jerusalem, therefore they are heirs of the kingdom. Abraham is saved, Moses is saved ,David is saved...and so on. We will sit in the kingdom of God with Abraham and all the prophets, not the other way around.


Luk 13:28  There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

The prophets were under the law, but had faith...Lazarus was under the law, and he had the promise of the resurrection.


Rom 15:8  Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
Rom 15:9  And that the Gentiles might glorify God for [his] mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Rom 15:10  And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

Read Romans 11: it tells us about Gods mercy on all Israel. As well as the Gentiles, if they abide still not in unbelief.

God bless

[ARPEL]

All i know is the ones who have faith in God are going to the same place as us... New Jerusalem, therefore they are heirs of the kingdom. Abraham is saved, Moses is saved ,David is saved...and so on. We will sit in the kingdom of God with Abraham and all the prophets, not the other way around.


Luk 13:28  There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

The prophets were under the law, but had faith...Lazarus was under the law, and he had the promise of the resurrection.


Rom 15:8  Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
Rom 15:9  And that the Gentiles might glorify God for [his] mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Rom 15:10  And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

Read Romans 11: it tells us about Gods mercy on all Israel. As well as the Gentiles, if they abide still not in unbelief.

God bless

AJ

This sounds great.


Thanks

[one sheep]

Arpel- concerning the scripture that you first used Heb 4:3 about wrath. First go to Heb 3:11, this is not speaking of God's wrath, it should read, "so I swear in 'their' wrath, they shall not enter into my rest.
This is feminie gender, God is not female right? This is speaking of the covetousness of man. As in the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
Adam was the first priest, but he did not rest from his labor because of covetousness. God made him work, and toil to produce food from the earth all the days of his life. This is abstract thinking, but relevant to your question.
Was he not part of the Kingdom of God because of this trangression? No. He is part of the church.

All of Israel shall be saved. This is speaking of spiritual Israel, because spiritual Jews are those who God loves. This is 'pas' or "the all"
The Jews had an expression, they said that a part of something was the whole, or the all. We have a similar expression,. If you and a friend hung out for say 6-7 hours, and then someone asked you what you did all day, you would mostlikely say  "I was hanging out with my friend all day" this is an expression, unless you actually spend all 24 hours with your friend.

 The All (pas) spiritual Jews, bond and free will be saved. God says so.

Whether from the O.T or the N.T, they are part of the ekklasia.

[AJ]

All i know is the ones who have faith in God are going to the same place as us... New Jerusalem, therefore they are heirs of the kingdom. Abraham is saved, Moses is saved ,David is saved...and so on. We will sit in the kingdom of God with Abraham and all the prophets, not the other way around.


Luk 13:28  There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

The prophets were under the law, but had faith...Lazarus was under the law, and he had the promise of the resurrection.


Rom 15:8  Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
Rom 15:9  And that the Gentiles might glorify God for [his] mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Rom 15:10  And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

Read Romans 11: it tells us about Gods mercy on all Israel. As well as the Gentiles, if they abide still not in unbelief.

God bless

AJ

This sounds great.


Thanks

No problem brother...God bless you and your's.

Gal 3:8  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9  So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.