Scriptural question;

[BDoggy]

ok, so I was having a conversation with my mom & one of her friends and I was asked a particular question that I was unable to answer, so I said I would have to look into it a little bit more. naturally, I knew exactly where to turn to; you guys. I am going to study the subject, and pray about it, of course, but I know you guys will be able to shed some light on it. wow! I'm rambling! sorry. allow me to get to the point...

the question was; when Jesus was on the cross, and He said, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?' what exactly was meant. I know that He was quoting a prophecy, I think David in the Psalms, if my memory serves me. I was thinking that it was sort of symbolic of the fact that He bore our sins in His body, and God cannot allow sin in His presence. on the other hand, I know that even though He bore our sins, He Himself remained 100% sinless (obviously). so, I have an idea of what was meant, but I'm not totally sure. thanx in advance for your help.

-BDoggy(Bobby)

[Allinall]

He Who was without sin became sin for us.  In that action, God the Father, turned His back on Christ.  It is important to understand that death is not ceasing to exist, but rather a separation: physical death separates body from soul and spirit, spiritual death separates soul and spirit from God.  The judgment for sin was death, both physical and spiritual.  The man who dies spiritually dead already is separated from God.  For Christ to pay that price, He need not only die a physical death, but a spiritual as well.  Confusing?    Tell me about it!  Yet God, in His infinite wisdom and understanding designed it so.  And in so doing, made atonement for our sin debt.  "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"  That others, by that sacrifice, might not be.

[John1one]

Greetings BDoggy,
This question was asked on another thread on the Prophecy and Current Events Board. I'll tell you what I wrote to my Moslim friend.

Your question is: When Jesus was on the cross and He said, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" what exactly did he mean?


Many Christians believe that this was one of Jesus' weakest moments and it was His flesh crying out. For this to be true we would have to say that Jesus was not always filled with the Spirit, and that there were times when He almost gave up. For this to be so, we would have to say that Jesus was never really God in the flesh.

Jesus hung on the cross from 9AM until nearly 6PM. We know He was alive at least until 3PM which is the time of the Evening Sacrifice. At the time of the killing of the Passover lamb (a ram's horn was blown at the Temple just as the priest was killing the lamb) Christ yelled out "It is Finished!" and then said to the Father "Father, into your hands, I commit my Spirit." He bowed His head and died.

All morning and into the afternoon He was mocked and accused of lying, that God was not His Father. The priests wagged their heads, saying to one another, "Let God save Him, if He will have Him." They said many blasphemous things to Him, but He said nothing (Matthew 27:38-44; Mark 15:29-32). Then around 3 PM, just prior to the slaying of the Passover Lamb, Jesus repeated the words of Psalm 22. It begins: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

You have probably read Psalm 22, but have you ever pondered the words while thinking about Jesus on the cross?  It speaks of one suffering and dying, but the psalmist looks for a resurrection. Most of the psalms were prayers. Men often begin to pray in despair, but in the presence of God they are encouraged, and by the end of the prayer they have new hope. The Psalms were also hymns - prayers that were sung to God in worship. Jesus was singing a hymn to His Father expressing His trust in Him that He would be raised from the dead. Think about it; just before Jesus died, He was singing a Psalm of faith to God. This particular Psalm would also answer all His accusers, because all day they had been taunting Him saying that God had indeed forsaken Him. The Priests knew the Scriptures and many of them would realize what He was doing. In essence, He was repeating what He had been telling them from the very beginning of His ministry. They asked for a sign, and He repeated over and over that no sign would be given except for the Sign of Jonah. Just as he was three days and three nights in the belly of a fish, Christ would be buried for three days and nights and rise again. This Psalm testifies of Christ trust in His Father to raise Him, just as Jesus had claimed He would from the very beginning.

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here:
May I give another thought on this?
 
Christ was God, & human. He did not use His God side while dying on the cross. In fact all of His powers came from the Father as we get them, but we get them through Christ. (Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9) He came to prove that the first Adam could have atained perfection. Do not get this confussed with being created PERFECT. Or our perfection as in Rom. 8:1 of NO condenmation.

We are talking of [CHARACTER PERFECTION.] Adam was tested (as was Eve) with the forbidden fruit. God did not give Adam a perfect CHARACTER. It needed to be developed.  And Christ also was perfect where Adam was. (converted at birth) Yet, He too needed to prove that a PERFECT CHARACTER (safe to save Nah. 1:9) was possible to develope! Christ lived by His Faith in the Power of His Father.

On the cross he died for all the saved [to be.] Yet, that was not the ONLY REASON that He lived the perfect life as man. He proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that HIS CHARACTER WAS PERFECTED when He stated 'My God, My God, why hath Thou forsaken me?" .. to many more than the ones on planet earth!!

Note, that HE STOOD AS A [PERFECT MAN] STILL IN THE [WORKING FAITH OF OBEDIENCE] THAT HE HAD DEVELOPED! A PERFECT CHARACTER! God had not forsaken Him, but as man, he did not know this! HE STOOD ALONE AS A PERFECTED MAN IN TOTAL OBEDIENCE TO HIS FATHER'S COMMANDMENTS!  HIS CHARACTER was [TESTED] and proved [MATURE!].

Where Adam failed, Christ did not! The GodHead proved to the Universe that Adam & Eve could have MATURED to PERFECTION! (safe to save) And that brings us to another one who was created PERFECT, yet his character never fully became MATURE! Who was that? Luciffer. So Christ PROVED to the other Worlds, and the angels who did not fall, as well,  that he too did not need to rebel!

---John

[Whitehorse]

Jesus was forsaken by God to become a curse for our sins. The fulfillment of the Bronze snake, if you will. He had to be forsaken by God to bear the punishment for our sins. And David prophesied about this in the book of Psalms. How ya been, buddy?  

[John1one]

Mmmmmmm! If God had forsaken Christ, what do you make of these Scriptures: 2Timothy 2:13 and 2Corinthians 5:18-19?

2Co 5:18  And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19  whereas God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and putting the word of reconciliation in us.

Now, if our Father was in Christ while Jesus hung on the cross paying our debt, how could He have forsaken His Son? The word, "forsaken" in Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 is egkataleipo (S.1459) from S.1722 and S.2641; to leave behind in some place, that is, (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad one) to desert: - forsake, leave.

While I might understand those who may say that the Father let His Son remain on the cross, this is not what is taught today by most Christian "scholars". They teach that God abandoned Christ. They teach that God turned His back on Christ. Not only does this not fit the character of God, but the idea is emphatically denied in Scripture. All one has to do is search a little to find the truth.

Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

It seems to me that modern theology is lame and lazy. God cannot deny Himself as 2Timothy 2:13 says. We still worship only ONE God. Do we not? He may be revealed in three separate Personages, but our faith is in ONE God. If God cannot deny Himself, how could the Father have abandoned Christ while He hung dying on the cross?

The word for "deny" in 2Timothy 2:13 is, "arneomai" (S.720); perhaps from S.1 (as a negative particle) and the middle of S.4483; to contradict, that is, disavow, reject, abnegate: - deny, refuse.

Remembering that modern theology does not allow "forsaken" to mean to "let remain" in the case of Christ on the cross, how does one "desert, leave behind, forsake" (S.1459) and not "reject, deny, refuse" (S.720) at the same time? If a close friend or loved one deserted me, I would have to say that they were also rejecting me. To me it says the same thing.

I personally knew saints who have lain in bed dying and singing old hymns that have meant so much to them throughout the years. Jesus began His final journey with a hymn (Matthew 26:30). It isn't a big reach for me to believe He was ending His journey in the same way.

You all may believe what you please about the character of our God, but I for one do not believe He forsook His Son for a moment. The Scriptures deny such a doctrine, but as I said: believe what you wish.

Peace,

John1one