The Dragon (satan)

[Raphu]

Allah commands Muslims to fight against Christians and Jews until they are reduced to a condition worse than that of slaves.

Sura 9:29 Fight those who believe not in God (Allah) and his apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of the truth [even if they are] of the people of the book [i.e. Jews and Christians], until they pay jizya [humiliating tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued [enslaved].

A being who is determined to wipe out Jews and Christians, now who might that be? The Bible has the answer:

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon (satan) was wroth with the woman (Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (the Jews today), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (the Christians).

"The Sword", says Mohammad, "is the key of heaven and hell; a drop of blood shed in the cause of Allah, a night spent in arms, is of more avail than two months of fasting and prayer; whoever falls in battle, his sins are forgiven, and at the day of judgment his limb will be supplied by the wings of angels and cherubim."

[Ambassador4Christ]

Allah commands Muslims to fight against Christians and Jews until they are reduced to a condition worse than that of slaves.

Sura 9:29 Fight those who believe not in God (Allah) and his apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of the truth [even if they are] of the people of the book [i.e. Jews and Christians], until they pay jizya [humiliating tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued [enslaved].

A being who is determined to wipe out Jews and Christians, now who might that be? The Bible has the answer:

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon (satan) was wroth with the woman (Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (the Jews today), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (the Christians).

"The Sword", says Mohammad, "is the key of heaven and hell; a drop of blood shed in the cause of Allah, a night spent in arms, is of more avail than two months of fasting and prayer; whoever falls in battle, his sins are forgiven, and at the day of judgment his limb will be supplied by the wings of angels and cherubim."

I agree

[Hitch]

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon (satan) was wroth with the woman (Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (the Jews today), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (the Christians).

Jews have the 'testimony of Jesus Christ'?

Obviously individual jews, Paul springs to mind, have this testimony.  But the vast majority do not and have niether the Father nor the Son. And you of course know anyone who teaches Jesus is not the Messiah is antichrist.

Hitch

[Raphu]

Jews have the 'testimony of Jesus Christ'?

Obviously individual jews, Paul springs to mind, have this testimony.  But the vast majority do not and have niether the Father nor the Son. And you of course know anyone who teaches Jesus is not the Messiah is antichrist.

Hitch

There are lots of Messianic Jews. Israel is the church, and the new covenant is to:

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

There are very interesting promises given to the houses together and seperately - also they are to be reunited before the end.

Ezekial 37:16  Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17  And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

[Hitch]

Have they not become 'one in Christ'?

You cant refer to 'Messianic Jews' as a distinct group and also support the unity of the faith. Iether we are made 'one the Spirit'  or  there are division along racial and ethnic lines.

H

[Raphu]

Have they not become 'one in Christ'?

You cant refer to 'Messianic Jews' as a distinct group and also support the unity of the faith. Iether we are made 'one the Spirit'  or  there are division along racial and ethnic lines.

H

Hmmmmm.....I can't, but the Bible can, or did you bother to read the scripture given.

[Hitch]

Have they not become 'one in Christ'?

You cant refer to 'Messianic Jews' as a distinct group and also support the unity of the faith. Iether we are made 'one the Spirit'  or  there are division along racial and ethnic lines.

H

Hmmmmm.....I can't, but the Bible can, or did you bother to read the scripture given.

Ok Surely Paul Pete or one or two other NT writers offer this same interrpretation.  I dont know where it is found.

However I can sho NT references nameing the church as the 'people of God, the Seed of Abe, the household of God, the holy nation etc.

[asaph]

Eph 2:11  Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made by hands in the flesh--
Eph 2:12  that at that time you were apart from Christ, being estranged from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope and atheists in the world.
Eph 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus, you who once were far away have come to be near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14  For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and who destroyed the dividing wall of separation,
Eph 2:15  having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Eph 2:16  and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, putting to death the enmity in Himself.
Eph 2:17  And having come, He preached peace to you who were far away and to those near.
Eph 2:18  Because through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19  So then, you are no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Eph 2:20  being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
Eph 2:21  in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
Eph 2:22  in whom you also are being built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

I think these verses agree with Hitches line of thinking.

asaph (hardball man) Know what I mean Hitch?

[Raphu]

Romans 11:25-26 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in: and thus ALL Israel will be saved....

Jesus spoke of other "sheep which are not of this fold; I must bring them in also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." And "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (John 10:16; Matthew 15:24)

Ezekial 37:16  Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17  And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Replacement theology has to replace scripture too.

Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance.

Jer 30:2,3 Thus says Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel, 'write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book. For behold, days are coming,' declares Yahweh, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.' Yahweh says, 'I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.'

Zech.9:13  When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. 14  And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

Zech 10:8-10 I will strengthen the house of Judah, and will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them back, because I have had compassion on them; and they will be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Yahweh their Elohim and I will answer them. Ephraim will be like a mighty man, and their heart will be glad as if from wine; indeed, their children will see it and be glad, their heart will rejoice in Yahweh. I will whistle for them to gather them together, for I have redeemed them; and they will be as numerous as they were before. When I scatter them among the peoples, they will remember Me in far countries, and they with their children will live and come back. I will bring them back from the land of Egypt and gather them from Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon until no room can be found for them.

[asaph]

Romans 11:25-26 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in: and thus ALL Israel will be saved....

Raphu,
In your view, does that mean that every Israelite that was ever born after the flesh (that is, physically descended from Abraham) will be saved?
By the way I do not adhere to Hitches escatological view of scriptures. I do not believe that all of Mathew 24 was fulfilled by 70 AD. I do see the Church as the kingdom of heaven today, but I also see Israel, after the flesh, coming into messiah during Daniels 70th week. I also see the Church entering into the 70th week and being taken out during antichrists persecution of Christians and Jews.

asaph

[Raphu]

The scripture seems clear to me that God intends for Ephraim and Judah to be reunited - the two houses of Israel. I think that Ephraim is the Church and Judah is the Jews. Us judging the Jews might not be wise and better left to God. The veil is being lifted off many of their eyes even now. I do not toss out the scriptures that speak of their reunion.

I do think that most of prophecy has been fulfilled, although I don't know Hitch's views. I do, however, believe that Israel is an important sign for the end times. I believe that the two witnesses are in place - the Jews and the Church, and that in some figurative fashion they will be killed by the beast which I see as Islam.

I definately don't believe in the Church being taken out for the flesh's sake. So many have died and "did not love their life, even unto death". What meaning would this scripture have if the Church was not here?

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Supposedly the Church isn't mentioned after the third chapter of Revelations, but who else would have the testimony and the blood of the Lamb?

Now when God judges the Jews, He won't need my help, so I don't. I just observe that they are spoken to often in the scripture right along with Ephraim.

Isa 11:12  And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13  The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14  But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

[Petro]

Ephraim, could very well be the Palestinian people.

Zec 10:7-11, speaks of him, being gathered because they are redeemed, vs 8.

They have been gatherd into the land promnised to Abraham as a possession forever.


Petro

[musicllover]

    Rev 12:11 (And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.)

         Backup a little to Rev 12:7 If I am reading it correctly, this part  Rev is referring to Satan loosing a battle of wits so to speak, he isn't allowed to stand before the throne and constanstly accuse believers. The blood and testominy are of all the saints those who have died and are in heaven already,(Rev 6:9) like the debate between Gore and Bush.....lol. God surely has to be a patient man to put up with that all the time. The saints testimony had have finally gotten satans keyster kick out of Heaven, or at least from around the throne where hes being accusing CHristians for generations.......but WOE to the people on earth, cause all hell breaks loose satan isn't a happy camper anymore. Like he ever was......but satan isn't stupid either, when he isn't allow to moan and groan and accuse Christian anymore he also knows his end is coming very quickly.  So this part of the "church" is already in Heaven.
Not to say that there is no church left here on earth, I believe in a pre trib rapture, some will become believers after the rapture they will be the remaining church, its going to be very very hard for them. The same chapt goes on to say (12:17) that the devil goes to make war with the "rest" of her(the church) off spring. Yes there are the  Jews here then and yes they will be used of God....but likes already been posted before a Jew by birth or inheritiance, that remains to be seen I suppose, right now I am content in knowing I an adopted heir and thats ok with me, I'm going to Heaven.
    As far as Islam being used by the devil to kill Christian, most def I believe that. Before during and after the rapture. Even now its seems more and more that injustice rules and justice can't be found. I agree that islam will be a tool for the devil to use.
     With a Holy Kiss

[Hitch]

Romans 11:25-26 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in: and thus ALL Israel will be saved....

Raphu,
In your view, does that mean that every Israelite that was ever born after the flesh (that is, physically descended from Abraham) will be saved?
By the way I do not adhere to Hitches escatological view of scriptures. I do not believe that all of Mathew 24 was fulfilled by 70 AD. I do see the Church as the kingdom of heaven today, but I also see Israel, after the flesh, coming into messiah during Daniels 70th week. I also see the Church entering into the 70th week and being taken out during antichrists persecution of Christians and Jews.

asaph

Amazing how many devoutly believe in God's prophetic abilities while they harbor disdain for His mathamatics and timeing.

And of course these are literalist to a man, so when God says  Seventy Weeks  by golly he means thoussands of years...

Doest the NT clearly teach that the parenthesis of history, the temporary seat of God's authoruty on earth was the old system of animal sacrfice? Which was .as Hebrews teaches, designed to be temporary? In contrast to the eternal New Covenant?

How does this compare with a brick and mortar temple when as Ralphu knows the real (permanent) temple is built from livlely stones, (eternally alive).

? What is the purpose of any supposed new temporal temple?

There is but one purpose. To fulfill the imagintive mind wanderings of generations of believers. But if you will litralize Ezekiel's temple you are obliged to literalize its purpose  . That purpose being the seat of 'sin offerings'. Nothing can righteously be added to the Cup.

Take care

Hitch

[Raphu]

Ephraim, could very well be the Palestinian people.

Zec 10:7-11, speaks of him, being gathered because they are redeemed, vs 8.

They have been gatherd into the land promnised to Abraham as a possession forever.


Petro

Ephraim was the son of Joseph, born in Egypt. His name means "to flouish in captivity". His brother was Manasseh. He ended up receiving the first born blessings from Jacob - the father of the tribes.

Jeremiah 31:9  They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Gen 41:52  And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.

The name also means doubly fruitful. Because Israel (Jacob) loved the son of Rachel (Joseph) above all his other sons, he gave him the firstborn portion - a double portion. And Jacob went on, "And now your two sons, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; Ephraim and Mannaseh shall be mine, as Reuben and Simeon are." And, "May my name live on in them, and the names of my father Abraham and Isaac." Through a deliberate act, Jacob put "Ephraim before Manasseh" (Gen.48:20), and he proclaimed Ephraim to be Joseph's heir. For Israel said, "Ephraim shall be mine as Reuben", meaning "Ephraim shall be as my firstborn" (Gen.48:5) - confirmed by Jeremiah.

The firstborn rights are explained in Deuteronomy 21:17.

Surely you aren't saying that Ephraim is a son of Ishamel - Palestinians

In Israel the firstborn is preeminent, he is a priest and a sovereign, and he has a double portion. So as Jacob's firstborn heir, did Ephraim fulfill his call to become the next head of the family - the head who embodied the soul and character of Israel? Did Ephraim become a powerful prevailing prince?
 Years later, ten of the twelve tribes becam collectively know as Ephraimites (1 Kings 11:31; Judges12:5). This happened after the children of Israel came into the promised land of Canaan, they divided finto two houses Ephraim and Judah.
While all the tribes were Jacob's descendants (2 Kings 17:34), the northern kingdom of Ephraim was called Israel and the southern kingdom was called Judah. (1 Kings 12:21)

When they went into captivity as punishment for their sins, the tribes of Ephraim wre lost and absorbed into the world of Gentile nations and even called a "Lo ammi" - not His people, but later on were to have the name as "Sons of the living God". Does that term ring a bell?

Hos 1:10  Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Hos 1:11  Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Jezreel, the first son of Gomer - the name means to scatter as in to agriculturally sow, and Ephraim was sown into the world to develop and be gathered again as "Sons of the Living God" - as prophecy says that they will be reunited with Judah again throughout the New and Old testaments. They will gather back together and appoint themselves one head - I think that would be Jesus Christ, but I could be wrong.

Ezekial 37:16  Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17  And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: