peh
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I'm a llama!
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2005, 12:23:26 PM » |
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Hi Bawilli,
About your question, let me say that what I will say is going to be disagreed with by many and has been already on other threads and forums. But, and let me tell you up front, this is not a simple answer. I don't think there is one. Your question is more difficult than you may know. There are whole schools of thought and whole denominations that adhere to them that say Paul meant exactly what he said, for all women, in all churches. There are others that say what he said was cultural and concerned a particular matter at the particular time he wrote it.
Here is what I posted on another forum. Hope it helps somewhat to answer your very good question:
Take 1 cor 14:34 for example:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
For those who think this applies across the gender, the logic goes "Ok, if you can't talk, you sure can't for instance, prophesy, or preach, or teach. Then, in many minds is added, "in fact, you are "commanded" to be under the man; why, even the law says so." A corrective word here seems needful: "commanded" is not even in the manuscripts, surprise, surprise.
As for the law saying so, I sought diligently and found not one of the 10 commandments that have mention of women speaking or not speaking in the churches. Also found none in the books of law of the Bible.
So you gotta ask yourself, what law is Paul speaking about? Jewish doctine, perhaps, but surely man-made, and not God ordained. When combined with the non-existent "commanded" however, this "commandment" has the appearance of spiritual authority, but lacks the reality of it.
Now, let's take a better look at this verse AND its context: Let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not "permitted" (KJV Greek Lexicon defines (first definition) this as "to turn to, transfer, commit, instruct" and only the 2nd definition is "to permit, allow, give leave "." Why was the 2nd definition used?
Is it possible that it was because the transcribers over the years were male and that is the way that seemed appropriate to them, considering their cultural context? If anyone can honestly say "no" to that I'm not going to argue, but you are wrong.
If you put the first words from the first definition into the statement you can come up with things like...."for they are not turned to to speak", an absolute statement of fact FOR THE CULTURAL CONTEXT: Neither the "heathen" Greeks nor the Jews allowed women to speak in public. Greek women are documented as being kept incommunicado by the males who "ruled" them, by many historical archives. Jews prayed every morning, "Thank you, God, for not making me a woman". For all I know, the observant ones still do. I DOUBT that means they hold (held) women in high esteem.
As for the women not speaking in church, Paul himself says in verse 23 of this passage, "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"
Notice he says "whole" church, and if "all" speak in tongues...
and in verse 24 "But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:"
notice it is "all" who prophesy (not "you men") and ALL who convince the unbelieving and ALL who are said to have "judged" the unbeliever.
Verse 25 says: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
By the prophesying of ALL, the speaking of ALL, whether in tongues or prophesy, the unbelieving is now convinced that God is among them.
How then is Paul supposed to be saying, "oh yeah, you women, you keep silent". The cultural context seems to be the only explanation! A paraphrase might be something like:
"You are not "turned to" or "expected" (in today's words) to speak in public, by the unbelieving, so be under "obedience". (If you see an unbeliever in the midst of the church), remember it is not to you they will turn to to hear teaching or behaving with authority...walk with circumspection in your prophesying or speaking in tongues.
As for being under "obedience", that word is defined as (ibid):
1. to arrange under, to subordinate
2. to subject, put in subjection
3, to subject one's self, obey
4. to submit to one's control
5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
6. to obey, be subject
These definitions definitively indicate a VOLUNTARY submission and not a "command performance" of silence.
How male Christians can possibly interpret this passage to mean "we rule, we alone can lead, and if we don't there will be chaos", is highly illogical.
Paul certainly didn't say that here, and he didn't only speak to women in this passage which he wrapped up by saying in verse 40 "Let all things be done decently and in order". This is the same message he pointed out in verse after verse:
(28-33, for instance): 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
As for women's place in the church, I'm convinced that it is wherever the calling of God places them. Some are gifted teachers, others are gifted at being "mothers in Israel" to the congregation they meet with, some are evangelists, others might be called to go to the mission field. If the church were not currently so much an audience, speaker type of situation, if all did as Paul spoke of, having a psalm, hymn, prophecy, etc when gathered together, we'd soon know what our calling is, I think.
As it is, we have to depend on an interior knowing and that in spite of well-meaning negative input if you do happen to share your "vision". God is able, thankfully, to overcome all obstacles to let us know what He has called us to do in this life. Put yourself in His hands and ask Him to show you the way He has chosen for you. It might happen instantly that He will tell you, but more likely there will be, over time, a certain "knowing" in your inner man that "this" is what I'm all about.
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