What did Jesus mean by this statement?

[jesusavedme]

Remember when Jesus said (paraphrasing), "If you were blind you should not have sin, but because you say you see, your sin remaineth."?  Yet Jesus also said to the Pharisees that they were "blind leading the blind".  A seeming contradiction at face value, however, just wondering what the correct understanding of these two verses, in light of one another, should be.  I have inclinations of what the Biblical interpretation is, just thought that maybe God will give me a more definitive one through one of you.

Also, God said that Israel is blind "in part" until the fulness of the Gentiles.  Does the fact that some of them are blind mean that their sin will not remain?  I know that the answer is no, just curious of what you guys will throw out there.  Seek and ye shall find, right???  

[2nd Timothy]

Interesting topic.  I hope the fact it was placed in the debate forum doesn't turn out to be bruha  

Joh 9:41  Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

It is sorta confusing, but I believe the key word here is SAY.  Because they SAY they see.  They were indeed blind having need of sight (as all men are spiritually), but because they SAY they can see, they have no need of restored sight.  A sick person who says he is well does not seek a physician, thus he is fooling himself and remains ill regardless of what he thinks.

Which leads to the next one...

Blind leading the blind.  If we agree on the first point, as Jesus telling them that because they think they have no need of sight, there is nothing He can do to heal them, it makes more sense.   The Pharisees were blind (even though they thought otherwise) and were leading those who blindly followed them; scribes etc.

Also, God said that Israel is blind "in part" until the fulness of the Gentiles.  Does the fact that some of them are blind mean that their sin will not remain?

No I don't think so.   I think some of these were restored to righteousness when they believed in Christ, but many did not, leaving them (Israel) blind or hardened in part.   The entire nation in the end (the living remnant) will be restored once the fulfilled time of the Gentiles is reached.   At least thats my take on it.   To say it again more simple....The are still in their sins, but some did accept Christ after the fact, leaving Israel Blind in part to Gods full plan of Salvation through His Son, Jesus.

Great subject!

Grace and Peace!

[Jemidon2004]

Here's the web page for the thread on my study on Israel as in whether or not they are God's nation or not. Keep in mind as I speak about Israel i'm talking to them about being a NATION, and not completely individual people.

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=6496;start=msg91265#msg91265

enjoy.

Joshua

[jesusavedme]

Thankyou both for your excellent replies.  2nd Timothy, I believe that God just confirmed my thinking through you.  He didn't say that the Pharisees were not blind, but that they SAID they were blind.  When Jesus said that certain people should not have sin, I believe that He was alluding to people who do not have the mental capacity to accept and/or reject Him on an intellectual basis.  Obviously the Pharisees did have this knowledge and that is what our Lord was implying.  Just wanted to clarify this in my mind and I am sure that God did this through you 2nd Timothy.  Thanks again!

[2nd Timothy]

Interesting...the following came to mind after reading your reply.

Gen 3:5  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7  And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.


Is it possible the Pharisees were in the same boat as Adam and Eve here?   Just some more food for thought.

Grace and Peace!

[jesusavedme]

Your food for thought is interesting and somewhat relative.  Although not a mirror image of the principle at hand, they do seem to be parallels on some level.  Basically, I believe that God will never judge anyone (children, mentally handicapped) unless they have eyes where they can see.  However, if people who can see, see not and remain blind, it is THEIR OWN DOING, NOT HIS (GOD'S).  For example, Jesus said, "He who has EARS TO HEAR LET HIM HEAR", etc.  This isn't much of a debate topic but I thank you 2nd Timothy for your sound Biblical response.

Michael.

[2nd Timothy]

Yes I agree on your comments about my previous post....I was somewhat rushed when I posted that.  Like you I think there is a parallel there somewhere, but I will have to let it simmer on the back burner a while till I have some time to study it more.

This isn't much of a debate topic but I thank you 2nd Timothy for your sound Biblical response.

It was never my intent to debate it from the start....I am enjoying the exchange we are having.    


I think we are of the same mind on what is meant in the passage....the Pharisees we unable to be healed as the blind man was, because they were self righteous blinding them to Gods truth.   Had they said they were in need of spiritual sight, the master was ready and willing to remove their sin.   Because they say they see, their sin remains!

Thanks for bringing up the topic!   Its been enriching for me.

Grace and Peace!

[jesusavedme]

Thanks 2T.  Before your answer I was kind of stressing over the "blindness" thing in Scripture.  Not that I believe that God's Word contradicts, just that there was a thirst within me for understanding concerning this subject.  I always wondered how God could blind people, etc.  Isn't this against His nature?  Doesn't He want all people to be saved and come to repentence?  If He blinded Israel wouldn't this be awefully anti-love so to speak?

Your answer confirmed what I believe God was leading me to believe.  Namely, that if we are blind, we are blind on behalf of our own doing.  Yes, God can supernaturally open people's eyes to the truth (like the remnant before His return), but His soveirgnty and wisdom righteously determines the times and people.

This leads me to another relative topic.  Jesus said that if Tyre and Sidon had seen the works that the Jews in His day had seen, then they WOULD HAVE REPENTED.  It seems to me that perhaps this Scripture indicates that God does ENOUGH (certainly) for each person who has ever lived to reach knowledge of the truth but NOT EVERYTHING WITHIN HIS POWER.  I have been somewhat troubled by this and wonder if you have some insight you would like to offer here.  

I used to always think that God would never let a soul perish in hell unless He did everything within His means to save them.  Of course, the Cross was EVERYTHING.  However, I am still somewhat confused over this matter.  But I have no doubt that God will bring me into His will concerning this matter and I thank Him for the thirst He puts within me.  Praise Jesus!!!

[2nd Timothy]

I will take a look at it when time permits....its way past my bed time.....lol   Work nights and must get up in a few hours.     I will get back to you on these OK?

Grace and Peace!

[Biff]

Dear jesusavedme...

>>>"If you were blind you should not have sin, but because you say you see, your sin remaineth."?  Yet Jesus also said to the Pharisees that they were "blind leading the blind".  A seeming contradiction at face value<<<

Their sin was that they "INSISTED"  that they could see, even though: concerning spiritual things (and with Christ standing there right before them!), they proved that were "BLIND" as bats.

Their "knowledge" of the truth was based on Scripture only (The LETTER of the law - that which made them... "proud", INSISTING that they weren't blind) and not through the Spirit of Truth ...

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.  John 6:63  

What happens when the spiritually blind lead the spiritually blind?
They both end up in the ditch (the ditch of perdition)!

There is no contradiction!  

Hope this helped you find what you're looking for.

In Christ,

Biff

http://www.uponthisrock.net

[2nd Timothy]

Thanks 2T.  Before your answer I was kind of stressing over the "blindness" thing in Scripture.  Not that I believe that God's Word contradicts, just that there was a thirst within me for understanding concerning this subject.  I always wondered how God could blind people, etc.  Isn't this against His nature?  Doesn't He want all people to be saved and come to repentence?  If He blinded Israel wouldn't this be awefully anti-love so to speak?

Yes, God does want all people to be saved.

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Highlights mine


Note that He is longsuffering, HOWEVER  

Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Isa 64:8 is another one.   Keeping in mind that God is a just God, in the perfect sense of the word Just!   This tends to lead into predestination type discussions, but all I can say is all men are in the hands of a perfect Just God, and Justice in eyes cannot be more Just.  

Your answer confirmed what I believe God was leading me to believe.  Namely, that if we are blind, we are blind on behalf of our own doing.  Yes, God can supernaturally open people's eyes to the truth (like the remnant before His return), but His soveirgnty and wisdom righteously determines the times and people.

This leads me to another relative topic.  Jesus said that if Tyre and Sidon had seen the works that the Jews in His day had seen, then they WOULD HAVE REPENTED.  It seems to me that perhaps this Scripture indicates that God does ENOUGH (certainly) for each person who has ever lived to reach knowledge of the truth but NOT EVERYTHING WITHIN HIS POWER.  I have been somewhat troubled by this and wonder if you have some insight you would like to offer here.  

I used to always think that God would never let a soul perish in hell unless He did everything within His means to save them.  Of course, the Cross was EVERYTHING.  However, I am still somewhat confused over this matter.  But I have no doubt that God will bring me into His will concerning this matter and I thank Him for the thirst He puts within me.  Praise Jesus!!!

Regarding God doing everything within His power.....Heres something to think about.  God did do everything.  He died for us!     God will not make men believe in Him.  This is where true love comes into play.   He wants us to repsond to the Love He demonstrated to us on the cross, by Loving Him in return.  Repenting of our sins, and placing our full trust in in His gift of Love for us.   That could not happen if He forced us to be His.  

As for everyone having enough evidence of God to believe, heres what the word says about that.

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Doesn't get any clearer than that.  They are without excuse!   God very God is ever evident in all His creation, and everthing that is made.   No man can sit and look up at the starry sky and deny there is a creator.    The animals we enjoy on earth...etc.   There is design in everything humans experience in this life.  And design, means it has a designer.

No excuse!

God has gone to great lengths for all men.   His creation, his provisions, His taking on human form and His dying in our place on calvary.    He's done everything in His power to provide us with everything we need to know Him intimately and have eternal Life IN HIM!.   Praise His Holy Name, forever and ever!

Grace and Peace!

[nChrist]

AMEN 2ND TIMOTHY!

Brother, thanks for a beautiful post. I pray that it will be a blessing to many.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 2:8-10  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: