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Author Topic: Isa 17 study [ yes i'm back ]  (Read 4455 times)
BigD
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2005, 04:52:04 AM »

BigD: daniels' 69th week ended exactly on the day when Jesus entered Jerusalem and spoke the words:

Luk 13:34  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

confirmed by:

Mat 21:43  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

There have been people that calculated the exact day from the days of Daniel ( chuck misslers' khouse.org comes to mind as one example )

BigD responds:
It is my contention that the 70th week of Daniel started at Pentecost (Acts 2:15-20). Therefore, I calculate that the 69th week ended the day before.

Knowing exactly when the 70th week started makes is much easier to tell when the 69th ended.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.
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twobombs
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2005, 06:07:47 AM »

Hi BigD,

I know/knew that our ideas concerning the start of the 70th week and the end of the 69th week differ; that's why is I posted my previous post in the first place.

In my view the start of 70th week is an event yet to happen somewhere in the future; look at the date at the footer of every post I ever made/make.

However do realise that with all the views that are out on this planet you are one of the few that actually believe the 70th week already started somewhere in 30ad; believing that 'the clock' stopped somewhere in the 70th week.

Just FYI,
2B
« Last Edit: March 31, 2005, 06:09:30 AM by twobombs » Logged

[ Tempus Fugit Smiley ]
BigD
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2005, 08:25:23 AM »

Hi BigD,

I know/knew that our ideas concerning the start of the 70th week and the end of the 69th week differ; that's why is I posted my previous post in the first place.

In my view the start of 70th week is an event yet to happen somewhere in the future; look at the date at the footer of every post I ever made/make.

However do realise that with all the views that are out on this planet you are one of the few that actually believe the 70th week already started somewhere in 30ad; believing that 'the clock' stopped somewhere in the 70th week.

Just FYI,
2B

BigD responds
We both know that Daniel 9:24 speaks of the 70th week (Tribulation.)

It is my contention that Joel 2:28-32 is speaking of the 70th week of Daniel.

According to Luke 24:45 Jesus, prior to his accesion to heaven, opened up the understanding of His diciples to the OT Scriptures.

The disciples, including Peter, were speaking, at Pentecost, "...as the Spirit gave them utterance. Therefore, Peter knew exactly where he was in the timetable of prophesy when he spoke the words: "THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN OF BY THE PROPHET JOEL." He quotes Joel almost word for word. It is my contention that Both Joel and Peter are talking about the LAST DAYS (Tribulation). Peter is telling his listeners that those signs were beginning to appear.

The following is what I have asked of other, and they seem to refuse to respond to it. I hope you will.

WHICH IS IT? Either Joel in 2:28-32 isn't speaking of the Tribulation and/or Peter doesn't know where he is in the timetable of prophesy. PLEASE clear that up for me. I am going by what I believe the Bible teaches. If it is saying something else, PLEASE explain it to me.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!



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Jemidon2004
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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2005, 10:27:51 AM »

Sorry to disappoint. However, I did choose the second option so I would not have to deal with your foolishness any longer. Consider yourself ignored. I had hoped you wouldn't resort to petty ultimatums and childish games BigD as a result of your "Triple, double-dare" This isn't a game to me, though it seems a game for you. I'm done with this thread and I'm done dealing with you. God Bless

Joshua
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"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty" - John Calvin
BigD
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2005, 01:06:05 PM »

Sorry to disappoint. However, I did choose the second option so I would not have to deal with your foolishness any longer. Consider yourself ignored. I had hoped you wouldn't resort to petty ultimatums and childish games BigD as a result of your "Triple, double-dare" This isn't a game to me, though it seems a game for you. I'm done with this thread and I'm done dealing with you. God Bless

Joshua

BigD responds
I respect your decision. It would all have been very simple if you would have explained to me what I requested. This is not a game with me either. If my beliefs are wrong, then I want to be SHOWN not just told.

In my younger years I was told too much of what I should believe, then I found out they were unscriptural beliefs, and that they were man made doctrines.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 07:57:05 AM by BigD » Logged
BigD
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« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2005, 05:37:29 AM »

I have asked Bronzesnake, Jemidon-2004 and twobombs to explain to me the following:

WHICH IS IT? Either Joel in 2:28-32 isn't speaking of the Tribulation and/or Peter doesn't know where he is in the timetable of prophesy in Acts 2:15-20. PLEASE clear that up for me. I am going by what I believe the Bible teaches. If it is saying something else, PLEASE explain it to me.

To this date, I have not received an explanation. Wonder why?

 
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tsu05
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« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2005, 10:09:19 AM »

I have asked Bronzesnake, Jemidon-2004 and twobombs to explain to me the following:

WHICH IS IT? Either Joel in 2:28-32 isn't speaking of the Tribulation and/or Peter doesn't know where he is in the timetable of prophesy in Acts 2:15-20. PLEASE clear that up for me. I am going by what I believe the Bible teaches. If it is saying something else, PLEASE explain it to me.

To this date, I have not received an explanation. Wonder why?

Are you joking???  We have shown you time and time again.  Telling and showing are the same on a message board b/c we arent meeting in person.   But I have showed and Bronzesnake have both showed you that you are wrong in this matter or do you forget the Rapture thread or the convo on the fifthday forum?
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Paul2
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« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2005, 11:09:05 AM »

     BigD,

    What Peter is saying is that the Holy Spirit was prophecized to come and indwell all believers. He wasn't really speaking of the Tribulation but of the Holy Spirit being poured out on all believers and indwelling them. Cosider the verses from Isaiah below for instance.

Isaiah 61:1: The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
   2: To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;


     In verse 2 above the "acceptable year of the Lord" (in blue)was fulfilled at the time Christ read the prophecy in the synagogue. "The day of vengeance of our God"(in purple) is a future prophecy to be fulffilled at the Second Coming of Christ. There is a nearly a 2000 year time gap in the same sentence and we are still waiting for the day of vengeance to begin.

     Jesus shocked the people when he read the first half of the sentence, handed the scroll back and said the part of the prophecy he read was fulfilled in their hearing. Jesus knew that the day of vengeance was 2000 years in the future.

Acts 2:15: "For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
   16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
   17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
   18: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

   19: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
   20: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


     There is a time gap in the above verses just as there was a time gap in the prophecy of Isaiah 61. Did Peter understand the time gap? I don't know? Remember Peter just received the Holy Spirit as this was happening. This was his first day being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Peter still had much to learn when this took place. At this point Peter was still acting as though he was under the law. Peter hadn't understood many things fully at this time. God had just begun to teach Peter the truth of all he was to know.

Acts 10:13:  "And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
   14: But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
   15: And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
   16: This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven."


     In the verses above it is clear that Peter did not understand that the law of Moses was not in effect anymore.
Peter argued with God about eating anything unclean. It should be clear to see that Peter was still learning the truths of God. He was by no means an expert even by chapter 10 of Acts. If Peter is argueing with God over eating something he considered unclean when God told him to eat, that should tell us that Peter doesn't know everything yet.

     To answer your question I don't think Peter had yet understood the timing of the Great Tribulation. He didn't understand the law was not in effect by Acts chapter 10, and he made the statement about Joel hours after first receiving the Holy Spirit himself.

    Consider that even the prophets did not understand the prophecies they gave. They did not understand all the details.

    There is a time gap between Acts 2:18 and verse 19 just as there was a time gap in the middle of the sentence in Isaiah 61:2. Did Peter understand this at the time he spoke? I don't know for sure, but I do know Peter still had ALOT to learn at that point in time.

     Consider these things carefully because you have based your entire understanding of the end times on these verses. If Peter did or did not see the time gap doesn't change the fact that there is a time gap, just as the Jews didn't see the time gap in Isaiah 61:2.

     You have interpreted everything based on these verses and you must ignore many things and change the meanings of many things to make these verses fit your interpretation which is a big mistake. Your listening to Peter who at the time he said the things in acts, wouldn't eat anything unclean. Peter was not fully informed on many things when he spoke of Joel 2.

    Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Reconsider these things. You said you wanted to know the truth. Now search these things and see if there is truth in what I have written.

    There is one more thing you must consider: Daniel's 70 week begins with a covenant made by Antichrist between Israel and many nations. There is also another event that will occur on the day the 70th week begins. The two witnesses of Revelation 11 will start their 1260 day ministry on the day the 70th week begins and will be killed on the day of the mid week. Daniel''s 70th week can not have begun if the two witnesses have not started their 1260 days of prophecizing.

     I have just finished a study of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 on my "Understanding the Book of Revelation" thread and have explained the details of this. If you truely seek to understand then read my study on Revelation 11.

                                                          Paul2 Cool




« Last Edit: April 02, 2005, 03:03:50 PM by Paul2 » Logged

AJ
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« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2005, 04:11:46 PM »

    BigD,

    What Peter is saying is that the Holy Spirit was prophecized to come and indwell all believers. He wasn't really speaking of the Tribulation but of the Holy Spirit being poured out on all believers and indwelling them. Cosider the verses from Isaiah below for instance.

Isaiah 61:1: The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
   2: To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;


     In verse 2 above the "acceptable year of the Lord" (in blue)was fulfilled at the time Christ read the prophecy in the synagogue. "The day of vengeance of our God"(in purple) is a future prophecy to be fulffilled at the Second Coming of Christ. There is a nearly a 2000 year time gap in the same sentence and we are still waiting for the day of vengeance to begin.

     Jesus shocked the people when he read the first half of the sentence, handed the scroll back and said the part of the prophecy he read was fulfilled in their hearing. Jesus knew that the day of vengeance was 2000 years in the future.

Acts 2:15: "For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
   16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
   17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
   18: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

   19: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
   20: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


     There is a time gap in the above verses just as there was a time gap in the prophecy of Isaiah 61. Did Peter understand the time gap? I don't know? Remember Peter just received the Holy Spirit as this was happening. This was his first day being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Peter still had much to learn when this took place. At this point Peter was still acting as though he was under the law. Peter hadn't understood many things fully at this time. God had just begun to teach Peter the truth of all he was to know.

Acts 10:13:  "And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
   14: But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
   15: And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
   16: This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven."


     In the verses above it is clear that Peter did not understand that the law of Moses was not in effect anymore.
Peter argued with God about eating anything unclean. It should be clear to see that Peter was still learning the truths of God. He was by no means an expert even by chapter 10 of Acts. If Peter is argueing with God over eating something he considered unclean when God told him to eat, that should tell us that Peter doesn't know everything yet.

     To answer your question I don't think Peter had yet understood the timing of the Great Tribulation. He didn't understand the law was not in effect by Acts chapter 10, and he made the statement about Joel hours after first receiving the Holy Spirit himself.

    Consider that even the prophets did not understand the prophecies they gave. They did not understand all the details.

    There is a time gap between Acts 2:18 and verse 19 just as there was a time gap in the middle of the sentence in Isaiah 61:2. Did Peter understand this at the time he spoke? I don't know for sure, but I do know Peter still had ALOT to learn at that point in time.

     Consider these things carefully because you have based your entire understanding of the end times on these verses. If Peter did or did not see the time gap doesn't change the fact that there is a time gap, just as the Jews didn't see the time gap in Isaiah 61:2.

     You have interpreted everything based on these verses and you must ignore many things and change the meanings of many things to make these verses fit your interpretation which is a big mistake. Your listening to Peter who at the time he said the things in acts, wouldn't eat anything unclean. Peter was not fully informed on many things when he spoke of Joel 2.

    Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Reconsider these things. You said you wanted to know the truth. Now search these things and see if there is truth in what I have written.

    There is one more thing you must consider: Daniel's 70 week begins with a covenant made by Antichrist between Israel and many nations. There is also another event that will occur on the day the 70th week begins. The two witnesses of Revelation 11 will start their 1260 day ministry on the day the 70th week begins and will be killed on the day of the mid week. Daniel''s 70th week can not have begun if the two witnesses have not started their 1260 days of prophecizing.

     I have just finished a study of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 on my "Understanding the Book of Revelation" thread and have explained the details of this. If you truely seek to understand then read my study on Revelation 11.

                                                          Paul2 Cool



Amen Paul2  Smiley thats a good example of how prophesy can come about....reminds me of King David saying he had his hands and feet pierced. And his garments parted.

Psa 22:16  For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17  I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.
Psa 22:18  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.


We all know now that it wasnt David himself, but Christ he was prophesying about. So in this case we need to take what David said out of its context, because of the prophecy of the crucifiction of Christ in the context of that Psalm.  So, sometimes prophecy is not always what it seems.

God bless
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BigD
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« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2005, 05:03:47 AM »

tsu05
Welcome Newbie.

I do not recall having any dialogue with you on this or any other subject. To my recollection, you have SHOWN me nothing. So, where do you get the "we" you mentioned. Have you got a mouse in you pocket or something.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 06:08:14 AM by BigD » Logged
BigD
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« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2005, 06:44:54 AM »

PART 1

THANK YOU for your efforts in trying to explain to me in such great detail what I have been asking of others. They haven't even come close to what you posted. Therefore, I will respond to everything you have posted. THANKS again.

    BigD,

    What Peter is saying is that the Holy Spirit was prophecized to come and indwell all believers. He wasn't really speaking of the Tribulation but of the Holy Spirit being poured out on all believers and indwelling them. Cosider the verses from Isaiah below for instance.

BigD responds:
If Peter isn't saying that the "last days" (Tribulation) are here, then WHY is he even quoting Joel 2:28-38 and saying THIS IS THAT... when Joel is speaking of the "last days" (Tribulation)?

Paul2 continues:
Quote
Isaiah 61:1: The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
   2: To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;


     In verse 2 above the "acceptable year of the Lord" (in blue)was fulfilled at the time Christ read the prophecy in the synagogue. "The day of vengeance of our God"(in purple) is a future prophecy to be fulffilled at the Second Coming of Christ. There is a nearly a 2000 year time gap in the same sentence and we are still waiting for the day of vengeance to begin.

     Jesus shocked the people when he read the first half of the sentence, handed the scroll back and said the part of the prophecy he read was fulfilled in their hearing. Jesus knew that the day of vengeance was 2000 years in the future.

BigD responds:
I am very familiar with Isaiah 61:1 & 2. In fact I quoted them to Bronzesnake @Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Rapture   on: January 21, 2005, 03:33:35 PM  

Paul2 goes on:
Quote
Acts 2:15: "For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
   16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
   17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
   18: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

   19: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
   20: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


     There is a time gap in the above verses just as there was a time gap in the prophecy of Isaiah 61. Did Peter understand the time gap? I don't know? Remember Peter just received the Holy Spirit as this was happening. This was his first day being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Peter still had much to learn when this took place. At this point Peter was still acting as though he was under the law. Peter hadn't understood many things fully at this time. God had just begun to teach Peter the truth of all he was to know.

BigD responds:
How can there be a time gap in those above verses when Peter is saying that "THIS IS THAT into regards to what was happening AT THAT TIME?

What do you mean that Peter still had much to learn? Before Jesus accended back to heaven He opened up the understanding to all the OT scriptures to His disciples. They knew and undertood everything in God's plan to that point of time. They, including Peter, knew exactly where they were in the timeclock of prophesy. Not only that, at Pentecost they were speaking "as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4).

Paul2 goes on:
Quote
Acts 10:13:  "And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
   14: But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
   15: And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
   16: This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven."


     In the verses above it is clear that Peter did not understand that the law of Moses was not in effect anymore.
Peter argued with God about eating anything unclean. It should be clear to see that Peter was still learning the truths of God. He was by no means an expert even by chapter 10 of Acts. If Peter is argueing with God over eating something he considered unclean when God told him to eat, that should tell us that Peter doesn't know everything yet.

BigD responds:
You cannot SHOW ME one verse of scripture prior to Acts 10 that says that the Gentile was no longer to be considered "unclean," or that the Law was no longer in effect.

As I said previously, Peter understood ALL the OT Scriptures prior to Jesus returning to heaven. There is nothing in the OT Scriptures that say that the Jew and Gentile will be on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. That is all future revelation to Paul and part of the "mystery that was revealed to him AFTER Acts 10.

END PART 1
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 06:18:18 AM by BigD » Logged
BigD
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« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2005, 06:45:54 AM »

PART 2

Paul2 continues:
     
Quote
To answer your question I don't think Peter had yet understood the timing of the Great Tribulation. He didn't understand the law was not in effect by Acts chapter 10, and he made the statement about Joel hours after first receiving the Holy Spirit himself.

BigD responds:
Are you telling me that Jesus did a poor job explaining the OT Scriptures to His Apostles?  If He did, then "their understanding" would be an erroroneous statement.

Can you produce chapter and verse where it says that the Law was not in effect prior to Acts 10?I don't think so. So, how was Peter to know?

Paul2 continues:
     
Quote
Consider that even the prophets did not understand the prophecies they gave. They did not understand all the details.

The OT prophets often seen the 1st and 2nd advent of Jesus, but preceived them as one event. Isaiah 61:1 & 2 is a good example and so is Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulders..." Quite a gap there too. There are others but I won't go into them.

Paul 2 continues:
   
Quote
There is a time gap between Acts 2:18 and verse 19 just as there was a time gap in the middle of the sentence in Isaiah 61:2. Did Peter understand this at the time he spoke? I don't know for sure, but I do know Peter still had ALOT to learn at that point in time.

BigD responds:
If there is a "time gap" between Acrs 2:18 and 19, then that same "time gap" exist in Joel 2:29 and 30.

I don't see a "time gap" during the Tribulation, but I do see that things will continually get worse and worse. If the "time gap" is there, then it can't be too long because the Tribulation is to last only 7 years. If you think there is a time gap, How long do you think it is?

Paul2 goes on:
Quote
    Consider these things carefully because you have based your entire understanding of the end times on these verses. If Peter did or did not see the time gap doesn't change the fact that there is a time gap, just as the Jews didn't see the time gap in Isaiah 61:2.

BigD responds:
I have consider very carefull what the Bible says and in the context in which it was said.

If you believe that there is a time gap between verses 18 and 19 of Acts 2, WHY is there not a period behind verse 18. Verse 19 is a continuation of verse 18.

In Luke 4:19 Jesus stopped at the end of the phrase of Isaiah 61, "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord" because if he had continued, then he would not have been able to say, as He did in Luke 4:21 "This day is this scripture fulfilled."

The OT Scriptures have spoken often of Israel going through the Tribulation period. If they had studied their scriptures then they knew that the Tribulation was still to come. It isn't a matter of their not understanding.

Paul2 continues:
     
Quote
You have interpreted everything based on these verses and you must ignore many things and change the meanings of many things to make these verses fit your interpretation which is a big mistake. Your listening to Peter who at the time he said the things in acts, wouldn't eat anything unclean. Peter was not fully informed on many things when he spoke of Joel 2.

BigD responds:
I have based what I believe on exactly what the Bible says. I do believe that the Biblical authors were writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and put down exactly what God wanted them to write. Therefore, I take God's word for what is says. God said what He meant and meant what He said. I do not spiritualize scripture to make it fit what I want to believe or just guess as to what some passages mean. I will admit that I am still in the learn mode and do not completely unders stand everything that God wants us to know. I don't know anyone that does.

Are you trying to tell me that after Jesus opened up the understanding of the OT Scriptures, prior to His returning to heaven, that Peter was ill informed? GIVE ME A BREAK Wasn't he speaking "as the Spirit gave him utterance?" Where before Acts 10 do we find that the Jews could eat food that was "unclean?" I don't think you can.

Paul2 goes on:
   
Quote
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Reconsider these things. You said you wanted to know the truth. Now search these things and see if there is truth in what I have written.

BigD responds:
What baby and what bathwater?

I have considered everything you have posted and answered it in total.

PLEASE be so kind as to doing likewise for me.

Paul2 goes on:
   
Quote
There is one more thing you must consider: Daniel's 70 week begins with a covenant made by Antichrist between Israel and many nations. There is also another event that will occur on the day the 70th week begins. The two witnesses of Revelation 11 will start their 1260 day ministry on the day the 70th week begins and will be killed on the day of the mid week. Daniel''s 70th week can not have begun if the two witnesses have not started their 1260 days of prophecizing.

     I have just finished a study of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 on my "Understanding the Book of Revelation" thread and have explained the details of this. If you truely seek to understand then read my study on Revelation 11.

BigD responds:
Where (chapter and verse) does it say that the 70th week cannot start prior to a covenant being signed with the ani-Christ? Yes, one will be signed. There wasn't one signed when the Tribulation started in Acts 2.

I have read a portion of you study on the book of the Revelation and have rejected some of what you have written. I feel that I have better studies to read about the Tribulation then what I have seen of your writing. I do admire you efforts though.

Personally I don't study the book of the Revelation a great deal because I know that I will not be going through it, but I'll be raptured prior to its resumption.

Being I believe that the instructions in righteousness for members of the Body of Christ can be found only in Paul's Epistles, I study them a great deal. Yes, I study the OT Scriptures also. They too are for my learning.

Looking forward to your reply.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
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« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 11:12:58 AM by BigD » Logged
Paul2
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« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2005, 12:26:13 PM »

PART 2
Can you produce chapter and verse where it says that the Law was not in effect prior to Acts 10? I don't think so. So, how was Peter to know?

John 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Matthew 27:51:  "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;"

BigD responds:
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If there is a "time gap" between Acrs 2:18 and 19, then that same "time gap" exist in Joel 2:29 and 30.

    Yes! Now I know that you can at least understand  what I'm saying. This is what I contend. There is a time gap. Christ still hasn't come back. The Holy Spirit was poured out 2000 years ago but verse 30-32 are yet to be fulfilled. There is a time gap between verse 29 and verse 30, just as you have said. You can see it because you made the quote above.

Joel 2: 29: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
   30: And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
   31: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
   32: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


     There is a time gap between verse 29 (in blue) and verses 30-32 (in purple).

BigD responds
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I don't see a "time gap" during the Tribulation, but I do see that things will continually get worse and worse. If the "time gap" is there, then it can't be too long because the Tribulation is to last only 7 years. If you think there is a time gap, How long do you think it is?

     I can't believe you just said,"I don't see a time gap during the tribulation," You could see it, you said so yourself. You just won't accept it. Your problem is that you don't underdstand the book of Revelation and all the prophecies it contains that prove you wrong.

    How long is the time gap between verse 29 and verse 30? 1973 years and still counting. From 32 a.d until the present time. The fulfillment of verses 30-32 are yet in the future.

BigD responds:
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I have consider very carefull what the Bible says and in the context in which it was said.

If you believe that there is a time gap between verses 18 and 19 of Acts 2, WHY is there not a period behind verse 18. Verse 19 is a continuation of verse 18.

    Back to Isaiah 61:2 "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" Same thing. There is a "Time gap" in the same sentence never mind next verse. You said you understand the time gap in Isaiah 61:2, so why can't you understand the same appr. time gap in Joel 2:29-30? Because it doesn't fit your interpretation is the answer. You "see" but refuse to accept. Thats the point. You say "show me" and we do, but you refuse to accept anything that does not fit your interpretation, even when scripture itself proves you wrong.

BigD responds
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In Luke 4:19 Jesus stopped at the end of the phrase of Isaiah 61, "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord" because if he had continued, then he would not have been able to say, as He did in Luke 4:21 "This day is this scripture fulfilled."

    Yes!!!!! And the same thing applies to Joel 2:29 and verses 30-32. Verses 30-32 have not been fulfilled yet. they are future still, just as the day of the Lords vengence is yet future. You see but just won't accept what you see.

BigD responds:
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I have based what I believe on exactly what the Bible says. I do believe that the Biblical authors were writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and put down exactly what God wanted them to write. Therefore, I take God's word for what is says. God said what He meant and meant what He said. I do not spiritualize scripture to make it fit what I want to believe or just guess as to what some passages mean. I will admit that I am still in the learn mode and do not completely unders stand everything that God wants us to know. I don't know anyone that does.

      You said above that the tribulation would only last for 7 years. Daniels 70th week is 7 years. Daniels 70th week has not started yet, therefore the 7 years of tribulation have not started yet. You do not believe exactly what the Bible teaches because the Bible proves you wrong. Daniel's 70 week will begin in the future. Antichrist will make a covenant with Israel for one week, which is 7 years. The day the covenant is made, the two witnesses of Revelation 11 begin their public 3 1/2 year, or exactly 1,260 days of prophecizing and will be killed by the Antichrist at the midweek of Daniel's 70th week. When the two witnesses are in Jerusalem, when it stops raining for 3 1/2 years Daniel's 70th week has begun, not until.

BigD responds
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Are you trying to tell me that after Jesus opened up the understanding of the OT Scriptures, prior to His returning to heaven, that Peter was ill informed? GIVE ME A BREAK Wasn't he speaking "as the Spirit gave him utterance?" Where before Acts 10 do we find that the Jews could eat food that was "unclean?" I don't think you can.

    I'm saying that the writers of the New Testament under the direction of the Holy Spirit used prophecy in their writings. There are great mysteries hidden in the scriptures which Paul told us to seek out. Peter is using the same style of Prophecy that Isaiah used. The Holy Spirit led both to write and have a time gap in between events. You admit there is a time gap in Isaiah 61:2, so you understand this is a method God uses in Prophetic writing.

Paul2 goes on:
   
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There is one more thing you must consider: Daniel's 70 week begins with a covenant made by Antichrist between Israel and many nations. There is also another event that will occur on the day the 70th week begins. The two witnesses of Revelation 11 will start their 1260 day ministry on the day the 70th week begins and will be killed on the day of the mid week. Daniel''s 70th week can not have begun if the two witnesses have not started their 1260 days of prophecizing.

     I have just finished a study of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 on my "Understanding the Book of Revelation" thread and have explained the details of this. If you truely seek to understand then read my study on Revelation 11.

BigD responds:
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Where (chapter and verse) does it say that the 70th week cannot start prior to a covenant being signed with the ani-Christ? Yes, one will be signed. There wasn't one signed when the Tribulation started in Acts 2.

Daniel 9:27: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

      There wasn't a covenant in Acts 2 because the tribulation did not start in Acts 2. I think your catching on to this after all. You seem to be understanding, just not accepting. The two witnesses did not begin their 1260 day ministry in Acts 2 and they weren't killed by the Antichrist 1260 days later in Acts 2 either. Theres your proof. The tribulation did not start in Acts 2 because the events of Daniel's 70th week did not start in Acts 2. Daniel's 70th week is still in the future.

BigD responds
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I have read a portion of you study on the book of the Revelation and have rejected some of what you have written. I feel that I have better studies to read about the Tribulation then what I have seen of your writing. I do admire you efforts though.

      How about you have rejected ALL that I have written. Maybe your reading "better" studies by more "educated" people but I teach the interpretation that the WHOLE BIBLE supports. If you can not fit all of prophecy together without contradicting your own interpretation, your interpretation is wrong.

    Your mind is made up. I knew this when I started. I just wanted to provide you with the answers to your questions. I have answered you. There are prophecies you haven't considered that prove you are wrong.

     Revelation 11 shoots down your theory, Daniel 9:27 shoots down your theory.
BigD responds
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Personally I don't study the book of the Revelation a great deal because I know that I will not be going through it, but I'll be raptured prior to its resumption.

           Ding, Ding, Ding!!!! Tell him what he's won Bob!!!
Theres the major problem!!!!!!!!! You ignore the study of all of the Scriptures. How can you expect to understand what you don't bother studing. The book of Revelation sequences the Old Testament prophecies!!!

BigD responds
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Being I believe that the instructions in righteousness for members of the Body of Christ can be found only in Paul's Epistles, I study them a great deal. Yes, I study the OT Scriptures also. They too are for my learning.

     Better learn the WHOLE BIBLE, stop dismissing John. You don't study the things that prove you wrong which is unwise.

                                                           Paul2 Cool

« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 12:15:50 AM by Paul2 » Logged

BigD
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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2005, 11:02:52 AM »

PART 1

First of all, I do not find a response to any of  previous PART 1

Paul2 continues:
     
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To answer your question I don't think Peter had yet understood the timing of the Great Tribulation. He didn't understand the law was not in effect by Acts chapter 10, and he made the statement about Joel hours after first receiving the Holy Spirit himself.

BigD responds:
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Are you telling me that Jesus did a poor job explaining the OT Scriptures to His Apostles?  If He did, then "their understanding" would be an erroroneous statement.[/b]

Paul2 replies:
NO REPLY.

Bigd Continues and asks:
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Can you produce chapter and verse where it says that the Law was not in effect prior to Acts 10?I don't think so. So, how was Peter to know?

Paul2 responds:
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John 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Matthew 27:51:  "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;"

BigD responds:
There is nothing in those above verses say that the law was done away with. You are reading what you want to believe into those verses. That is what you accuse me of doing.

Paul2 posted::
     
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Consider that even the prophets did not understand the prophecies they gave. They did not understand all the details.

BigD responded:
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The OT prophets often seen the 1st and 2nd advent of Jesus, but preceived them as one event. Isaiah 61:1 & 2 is a good example and so is Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulders..." Quite a gap there too. There are others but I won't go into them.

Paul 2 replies:
NO REPLY

Paul 2 continues:
   
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There is a time gap between Acts 2:18 and verse 19 just as there was a time gap in the middle of the sentence in Isaiah 61:2. Did Peter understand this at the time he spoke? I don't know for sure, but I do know Peter still had ALOT to learn at that point in time.

BigD responds:
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If there is a "time gap" between Acrs 2:18 and 19, then that same "time gap" exist in Joel 2:29 and 30.

Paul2 replies:
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Yes! Now I know that you can at least understand  what I'm saying. This is what I contend. There is a time gap. Christ still hasn't come back. The Holy Spirit was poured out 2000 years ago but verse 30-32 are yet to be fulfilled. There is a time gap between verse 29 and verse 30, just as you have said. You can see it because you made the quote above.

Joel 2: 29: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
   30: And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
   31: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
   32: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


     There is a time gap between verse 29 (in blue) and verses 30-32 (in purple).

BigD responds:
Christ has not returened because of the gap between  Acts 2:18 and 19, or Joel 2:29 and 30-32. It is my contention that there is no gap there.

My contention is this - The Tribulation started in Acts 2:15-20. It was  interrupted after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7 and when God set the nation of Israel aside. Israel, as a nation was set aside after the rejected God the Father, when they refused to be baptized of John and establish thier own righteouness (Romans 10:3). They rejected  God the Son when they demanded that Jesus be curcified. They then rejected God the Holy Ghost (Spirit) when the leaders of Israel killed (stone) Stephen, in Acts 7, who was filled with the Holy Spirit.

With Israel's rejection of the Trinity, there was no way that the "so called" great commission could be carried out through the nation of Israel, and the world blessed through the nation of Israel.

Therefore, God interrupted the Tribulation by setting Israel aside, raising up the Apostle Paul to usher in this dispensation of grace. This dispensation will end with the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, THEN the Tribulation will resumes. This dispensation of grace is a ("parenthetical") period in the dispensation of the Law, and cannot be found in prophesy.

That, my friend, is the reason for the delay of Christ's 2nd coming.

BigD posted:
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I don't see a "time gap" during the Tribulation, but I do see that things will continually get worse and worse. If the "time gap" is there, then it can't be too long because the Tribulation is to last only 7 years. If you think there is a time gap, How long do you think it is?
.

Paul2 responded:
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I can't believe you just said, "I don't see a time gap during the tribulation," You could see it, you said so yourself. You just won't accept it. Your problem is that you don't underdstand the book of Revelation and all the prophecies it contains that prove you wrong.

How long is the time gap between verse 29 and verse 30? 1973 years and still counting. From 32 a.d until the present time. The fulfillment of verses 30-32 are yet in the future.

BigD replies:
You are so right. I can't believe I said that either. When I wrote that I had the gap between Joel 2:29 and 30-32 in mind; not the interruption (gap) within the Tribulation itself.

My belief is that when the Tribulation resumes, after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, the Triblation will then continue from where is interrupted. Hope I made myself more clear now.

Peter in Acts 2:16 what Joel was saying in 2:28. Peter, speaking as the Spirit gave him utterance, is saying that the events that are taken place are not the result of his hears being drunk, but because the signs of the "last days" (Tribulation) were beginning to appear.

Paul2 goes on:
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    Consider these things carefully because you have based your entire understanding of the end times on these verses. If Peter did or did not see the time gap doesn't change the fact that there is a time gap, just as the Jews didn't see the time gap in Isaiah 61:2.

BigD responds:
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I have consider very carefull what the Bible says and in the context in which it was said.

If you believe that there is a time gap between verses 18 and 19 of Acts 2, WHY is there not a period behind verse 18. Verse 19 is a continuation of verse 18.

In Luke 4:19 Jesus stopped at the end of the phrase of Isaiah 61, "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord" because if he had continued, then he would not have been able to say, as He did in Luke 4:21 "This day is this scripture fulfilled."

The OT Scriptures have spoken often of Israel going through the Tribulation period. If they had studied their scriptures then they knew that the Tribulation was still to come. It isn't a matter of their not understanding.

Paul2 replies:
 
Quote
Back to Isaiah 61:2 "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" Same thing. There is a "Time gap" in the same sentence never mind next verse. You said you understand the time gap in Isaiah 61:2, so why can't you understand the same appr. time gap in Joel 2:29-30? Because it doesn't fit your interpretation is the answer. You "see" but refuse to accept. Thats the point. You say "show me" and we do, but you refuse to accept anything that does not fit your interpretation, even when scripture itself proves you wrong.

BigD answers:
Where Jesus stoped reading In Isaiah 61 was not because of the time gap between Joel 2:29 and 30. It was because had He continued, He would not had been able to make the statement he made in Luke 19:21. He knew quite well that the Tribulation hadn't started yet. There is no time gap between Joel 2:29-30.  According to OT prophesy it is one continuous happening. The dispensation of grace, which interrupted the Tribulation, was still a mystery/secret, and cannot be found in prophesy, and cannot be read into Isaiah 61.

Keep in mind Paul, the kingdom that Christ was to establish upon the earth could not happen until two OT prophesies were fulfilled. That Jesus must suffer many thing and be rejected (Isaiah 53) of THIS generation (Luke 17:25) and that  Israel must go through the 70th week of Daniel (Tribulation.) So when Christ did come, He NEVER offered the kingdom to Israel. However, He and His disciples preached "the gospel of the kingdom." WHY? because it was the time, according to OT prophesy, for the kingdom to be established. The King was now in their midst.

Peter, in Acts 3:19-21 could NOW offer the kingdom to Israel because the prophesy of the rejection of His generation and His suffering was fulfilled, and the Tribulation had started. So, If Israel, as a nation, would now repent, and recogize Jesus as their prophesied Messiah, THEN the Tribulation would have run its course and Jesus would have returned to establish His kingdom. The promises to Abram, back in Genesis 12:1-3 would have been fulfilled also.

END OF PART 1

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
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Quote
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 11:19:04 AM by BigD » Logged
BigD
Guest
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2005, 11:06:07 AM »

PART 2
BigD posted:
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In Luke 4:19 Jesus stopped at the end of the phrase of Isaiah 61, "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord" because if he had continued, then he would not have been able to say, as He did in Luke 4:21 "This day is this scripture fulfilled."

Paul2 responded:
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Yes!!!!! And the same thing applies to Joel 2:29 and verses 30-32. Verses 30-32 have not been fulfilled yet. they are future still, just as the day of the Lords vengence is yet future. You see but just won't accept what you see.

BigD replies:
In Luke 14:19 Jesus stoped reading  Isaiah 61:2 after the phrase "the acceptable year of the Lord", becaus of a gap, Why didn't Peter stop reading after verse 29 because of a gap being there?  So, if it applies to where Jesus stopped reading, WHY doesn't it apply to where Peter read. As you say: "same thing."

Paul2 continues:
     
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You have interpreted everything based on these verses and you must ignore many things and change the meanings of many things to make these verses fit your interpretation which is a big mistake. Your listening to Peter who at the time he said the things in acts, wouldn't eat anything unclean. Peter was not fully informed on many things when he spoke of Joel 2.

BigD responds:
Would you be so kind as to post the scriptures  that I have  changed the meaning of to make them fit what I want to believe. Also, show me the correct interpretation of them.

BigD posted:
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I have based what I believe on exactly what the Bible says. I do believe that the Biblical authors were writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and put down exactly what God wanted them to write. Therefore, I take God's word for what is says. God said what He meant and meant what He said. I do not spiritualize scripture to make it fit what I want to believe or just guess as to what some passages mean. I will admit that I am still in the learn mode and do not completely unders stand everything that God wants us to know. I don't know anyone that does.

Paul2 responds:
 
Quote
You said above that the tribulation would only last for 7 years. Daniels 70th week is 7 years. Daniels 70th week has not started yet, therefore the 7 years of tribulation have not started yet. You do not believe exactly what the Bible teaches because the Bible proves you wrong. Daniel's 70 week will begin in the future. Antichrist will make a covenant with Israel for one week, which is 7 years. The day the covenant is made, the two witnesses of Revelation 11 begin their public 3 1/2 year, or exactly 1,260 days of prophecizing and will be killed by the Antichrist at the midweek of Daniel's 70th week. When the two witnesses are in Jerusalem, when it stops raining for 3 1/2 years Daniel's 70th week has begun, not until.

BigD responds:
I fully agree with you as to what Daniel 9 says about the 70th week. Daniel preceived it to be one continuous week; jut as the OT prophets preceived the 1st and 2nd coming of Christ as one event. The also precieved that when their Messiah arrived, that He would sit on David's throne without having to face death. The DID NOT SEE the unprophesied period of this dispensation of grace in which we now live.

I agree that the anti-Christ will make a 7 year pack with the nation of Israel. However, I do not believe that it must be signed prior to the start of the Tribulation.

BigD posted:
Quote
Are you trying to tell me that after Jesus opened up the understanding of the OT Scriptures, prior to His returning to heaven, that Peter was ill informed? GIVE ME A BREAK Wasn't he speaking "as the Spirit gave him utterance?" Where before Acts 10 do we find that the Jews could eat food that was "unclean?" I don't think you can.

Paul2 responds:
 
Quote
I'm saying that the writers of the New Testament under the direction of the Holy Spirit used prophecy in their writings. There are great mysteries hidden in the scriptures which Paul told us to seek out. Peter is using the same style of Prophecy that Isaiah used. The Holy Spirit led both to write and have a time gap in between events. You admit there is a time gap in Isaiah 61:2, so you understand this is a method God uses in Prophetic writing.

BigD replies:
So you are saying in essance that I really shouldn't believe what Peter is saying at Pentecost, and that I should consult you as to what he actually means. I don't think I will do that.

Paul tells us in Romans 15:8 that Jesus came to confirm (fulfill) the promises (prophesies) made to the fathers. They have not yet all been fulfilled. Paul reveals to us secrets/mysteries that were "kept secret since the world began," but I really don't know of any hidden mysteries he says that we were to seek out. Also, I know the Bereans searched out the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was telling them was the truth.

Also, I know that there were things in the OT that were in "shadows and types" (could not be seen), but Paul, in his writings sheds light on them, so we can now see what they were. All of God's "plan for the ages" is now made known to us. Paul tells us in Colossians 1:25,26 "Whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill (make full/complete) the word of God; the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest." So, everything that God wants us to know, we now have in our Bible.

As I explained above, the OT prophets precieved things a one event because they were not aware of the dispensation of grace that interrupted the things they prophesied. You evidently do not see the dispensation of grace as a ("parenthetical") period within the dispensation of the Law. The Law will again be in effect AFTER the rapture of the Chruch, the body of Christ

END OF PART 2
God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
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