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Author Topic: The Origin of Evil?  (Read 9023 times)
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« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2006, 03:55:55 AM »

Greetings in the name of Christ Jesus, Nana. I wish to offer a small rebuttal.

Quote from: MalkyEL
God created evil and His Word tells us that He does evil:

Isaiah 45:5  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6  That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.  7   I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Quote from: MalkyEL
God did create evil - His Word does not lie.  The word create in Isaiah 45 is the exact word that God uses in Genesis 1:1 to create [bara] the world.

I disagree. You are quoting the KJV's rendering of Isaiah 45:7, which is misleading semantically.

Isaiah 45:7 [NIV]
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 [NASB]
The One (A)forming light and (B)creating darkness,
Causing well-being and (C)creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

Isaiah 45:7 [KJV]
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

*See also Isaiah 45:7 [Hebrew text].

Notice that this verse is structured as two antithesis comparisons. In the fist clause, the formation of light is contrasted with the creation of darkness, as affirmed by the NIV, NASB, and KJV's identical rendering. As shown by the Hebrew words used, this comparison could juxtapositon different parts of the day, the different luminousness of different locations, and/or light and darkness in general.

In the second clause, "prosperity" [NIV], "well-being" [NASB], and "peace" [KJV] is contrasted with "disaster" [NIV], "calamity" [NASB], and "evil" [NIV]. This cross-translation overview evidences a contrast between good fortune and misfortune, not moral goodness and moral evil. Otherwise, the KJV's contrast between "peace" and "evil" is illogical.

This interpretation is confirmed by the Hebrew text. The Hebrew word for "prosperity" [NIV], "well-being" [NASB], and "peace" [KJV] is shalowm (Strong's #7965). As demonstrated by Strong's Lexicon and Strong's Greek Dictionary, the word shalowm never refers to moral goodness. To the contrary, shalowm refers to wellness in multiple possible contexts. As a result, the comparison cannot contrast moral goodness with moral evil.

Quote from: MalkyEL
Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

In Job 2:10 and Job 42:11, the Hebrew word for "evil" is ra' (Strong's #7451). The word ra' can refer to moral evil or misfortune, among other meanings. How do you know that these verses refer to moral evil, as opposed to misfortune?

Quote from: MalkyEL
Isaiah 54: 16Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.  15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. 16 Let our lord now command thy servants, [which are] before thee, to seek out a man, [who is] a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.

1Sa 16:23 And it came to pass, when the [evil] spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and [there was] a javelin in Saul's hand.

1Sa 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with [his] hand.

So? How do these Scriptural references show 'Elohiym creating moral evil?

Quote from: MalkyEL
A really good example of this is found in Job. When satan came before God to inflict Job - satan asked God to extend His [God's] hand and cause destruction to come upon Job.
[Job 1:10-12]

So? How do these Scriptural references show 'Elohiym creating moral evil?

Quote from: MalkyEL
Because people do not understand the Infinite and Awesome Majesty of God, they do not understand that God created and does indeed do evil.  The OT states verse after verse that God did evil, sends evil, sends evil spirits, repents of evil.

Quote from: MalkyEL
There is also plenty of evidence in the NT that God does evil as well.

So 'Elohiym is evil? How can 'Elohiym create or do morally evil things, yet remain good? And how do you reconcile your assertion with Job 34:10-12?

Quote from: MalkyEL
God is Eternal - Forever.  He created ALL things, ALL concepts, ALL ideas.  He created evil for His purpose.  satan did not get an idea for evil himself.  satan cannot create, he can only imitate.  evil was present in the form of pride when satan [lucifer] was in heaven - he chose to act on it.  he became prideful and wanted to elevate himself over God.

I agree that 'Elohiym "created all things" (Ecclesiastes 11:5, Isaiah 44:24, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:15-17, Revelation 4:11, etc.). However, 'Elohiym "created all things" under what context? The original creations of Genesis 1 or all things for all time?

'Elohiym did not create everything that currently exists. For instance, 'Elohiym did not create airplanes. Instead, 'Elohiym created the raw materials which man used to build airplanes.

Now, let us apply this point to evil. The original state of evil is raw intellectual knowledge, which represents possible courses of action. Neither the intellectual knowledge of evil nor the capacity to do evil is inherently evil. To the contrary, sin or moral evil, evil natures, and corruption in general are produced by evil put into action, as demonstrated by the fall of Adam and Eve. Hence, one deduces that God created evil, but not evil in action.

Quote from: MalkyEL
Another example is the creation of Adam and Eve.  God said it was good when He created them, yet He created them with the propensity to do evil - hence the warning not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  When satan tempted them, that proclivity was acted upon and man sinned against God.

Really? How could Adam and Eve possess a sinful nature before obtaining the knowledge of good and evil?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2006, 04:45:02 AM by LuckyStrike » Logged

1 Peter 3:15 [NIV]
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.
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« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2006, 04:33:39 AM »

There is no such thing as ' evil '. Huh

In my trade, I deal with vaccumes.  Not vaccume cleaners, but pressures below atmospheric pressure.  There is no such thing as a negative pressure, only a positive pressure less than atmospheric pressure (14.7 psi @ sea level)  All we can do is remove that 14.7 psi from a space. you can't remove more than that.

If you walk into a dark room, it is said to be dark, but that means the absence of light.  You can't have a measure of darkness, only a declining amount of light, untill there is no light left.  You can't have less than ' no light' and increase darkness beyond that point of ' no light '.

When you read a thermometer, you read the amount of heat present. as heat declines, the temperature goes down, but you can't remove any heat beyond the point where there is no heat.  You can't add cold to a space with absolutely no heat in it.

God exists.  He defines Himself as good, absolute good.  Evil, is the absence of God.  So wherever God is not, is evil.

God created evil, in a similar manner that I ' create ' a shadow on a sunny day.  The absence of light, relative to my surroundings, is my shadow.  The absence of good, relative to God, is evil.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 04:38:16 AM by 1Tim » Logged

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