Is Jesus God? - Part Two

[Jemidon2004]

Hey Jury,

I didn't respond to your post right after mine because I got busy here at the house, and wasn't able to post anything or get to a computer. Things get a bit hectic around my house this time of year with school, church, and other activities of that nature. So i'm sure you'll understand why I havn't responded as soon as I did. Don't think I was shying away from our discussion. I just momentarily got busy, and I will be busy for maybe the next week or so, so my daily posting will drop. If you'll noticed, i did comment on John 10:30. I tried to post it in the greek, but it wouldn't work...so i'm learning how to put the greek on here so you can read it for yourself then you'll see that Jesus was making a statement, not in a rebuking way. I think Pastor Roger summed it up right nicely. I've answered your question..maybe not from my own lips (or fingers in this case) but I have answered your question nevertheless. God Bless.

Joshua

[felix102]

Is Jesus God?

Well, for me. No. I am a Christian but not a member of Jehovah's Witnesses who don't believe that Jesus is God.

I am pro-Bible and my contention is this:

1. Jesus Christ was a man purposed by God to fulfill His will on salvation. When I say God, it directly refers to the One introduced to us by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself as the One and Only true God - the Father.

2. Jesus can never be God for God is one. Jesus Christ is not the Father because definitely He is the Son. When Jesus said that the Father is the only true God, it means that the Son is not, the Holy Spirit is not, or NO ONE is - ONLY the Father.

3. Jesus Christ, being a man, was found in the form of God, in the sense that God has given Him authorities and qualities similar to God Himself. This was needed for the fulfillment of God's will for salvation. But this doesn't mean that He is God. For a God is not a man. And a man can never be God.

4. Jesus Christ Himself didn't exist in the beginning. He didn't exist before He was born. He was proclaimed as "the firstborn to all creations" because He was FOREKNOWN by God before the foundation of the world.

5. According to the Bible, there is only ONE Creator - the Father. Since the Father purposed everything for Christ, He [Jesus] became the sole reason why God, the Creator, the Father, created everything.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus is God... or God has three persons namely: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Hi Jury.

Those are well thought-out points. I will try to address each one.

[Evangelist]

Quote from: Jury on March 22, 2005, 08:34:43 AM

4. Jesus Christ Himself didn't exist in the beginning. He didn't exist before He was born. He was proclaimed as "the firstborn to all creations" because He was FOREKNOWN by God before the foundation of the world.

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

5. According to the Bible, there is only ONE Creator - the Father. Since the Father purposed everything for Christ, He [Jesus] became the sole reason why God, the Creator, the Father, created everything.

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

[Jury]

Quote from: Jury on March 22, 2005, 08:34:43 AM

4. Jesus Christ Himself didn't exist in the beginning. He didn't exist before He was born. He was proclaimed as "the firstborn to all creations" because He was FOREKNOWN by God before the foundation of the world.

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

5. According to the Bible, there is only ONE Creator - the Father. Since the Father purposed everything for Christ, He [Jesus] became the sole reason why God, the Creator, the Father, created everything.

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Those passages do not prove that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning. Jesus was born after Abraham. Being a descendant and a Seed to Abraham - that means AFTER. So why did Jesus said, "before Abraham was born I am" ?

As I said, Jesus Christ was called the "firstborn to all creations" ... but not literally born first. In what manner then? Apostles proclaimed "Jesus was FOREKNOWN" before the foundation of the world. If Jesus Himself existed before the foundation of the world, why need to be "FOREKNOWN"?

Again, my contention remains TRUE when the Bible said that the Creator is the God our Father. When it says, its the Father - its the Father. So why the Bible says "everything created BY Jesus" ? Does it mean that Jesus Himself is the Creator? No. The Bible says: The world was made THROUGH Him and BY Him... in what manner? God our Father created everything FOR Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ our Lord became the sole reason why God our Father created everything.

Now, again, I asked:

If Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior is God, and we only have one God, and the Father of Jesus is not the Son [because Jesus Himself is the Son], WHY did Jesus Christ Himself proclaimed that the ONLY true God is the Father - His Father - our Father? If the Father is the only true God, what is Jesus? Is Jesus the Father? If God is made of the three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spririt - and each is recognized as God - how come that Jesus introduced the Father as the only true God?


Simple questions.

[2nd Timothy]

If Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior is God, and we only have one God, and the Father of Jesus is not the Son [because Jesus Himself is the Son], WHY did Jesus Christ Himself proclaimed that the ONLY true God is the Father - His Father - our Father?

If Jesus was not God then His blood could not be counted righteous that was shed for your and my sins and was not enough for salvation.   His blood however, was righteous enough because He was sinless....Who other than God is sinless?

If the Father is the only true God, what is Jesus? Is Jesus the Father?

Yes!

Joh 14:8  Philip *said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
Joh 14:9  Jesus *said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
NASB

Jesus' own words.

If God is made of the three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spririt - and each is recognized as God - how come that Jesus introduced the Father as the only true God?

God IS one God, in three persons.   We probably will not fully understand it until we see firsthand, but it is clearly taught in scripture.


Read carefully...

Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9  For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
KJV

Once again in NASB

Col 2:8  See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
Col 2:9  For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
Col 2:10  and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
Col 2:11  and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
Col 2:12  having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

The fullness of the entire Godhead dwells in Jesus in bodily form.   Not easy to understand, but there it is in black in white.   Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, or we are still in our sins.

Simple questions.

Simple answers!  

Grace and Peace!

[Allinall]

AAAAAAAAMMMMMMMEEEENNNNNN!!!!!!![/i][/u]

Welcome back Bro!  

[2nd Timothy]

AAAAAAAAMMMMMMMEEEENNNNNN!!!!!!![/i][/u]

Welcome back Bro!  

Thanks!   You were making me feel guilty....lol j/k

Not really enough time to spend on many threads right now, but I found this one difficult to pass up  

[Evangelist]

Those passages do not prove that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning. Jesus was born after Abraham. Being a descendant and a Seed to Abraham - that means AFTER. So why did Jesus said, "before Abraham was born I am" ?

It's quite obvious that you only read and comprehend what you want to.  So why did Jesus say "before Abraham was born I AM"?  It's rather obvious that Jesus was claiming Himself to be the same as the I AM who introduced Himself to Abraham....and that HE EXISTED BEFORE Abraham.  Duh!

As I said, Jesus Christ was called the "firstborn to all creations" ... but not literally born first. In what manner then? Apostles proclaimed "Jesus was FOREKNOWN" before the foundation of the world. If Jesus Himself existed before the foundation of the world, why need to be "FOREKNOWN"?

You like to hang your hat on one statement, which is a blatant disregard for the rules of competent exegesis and hermeneutics.  It is also quite apparent from the entire context of the passages that the entire plan of salvation, including His taking on the form of man and paying the price for sin INSTEAD of requiring man to pay it himself.  That's called mercy, and grace.  The PLAN WAS FOREKNOWN.

Again, my contention remains TRUE when the Bible said that the Creator is the God our Father. When it says, its the Father - its the Father. So why the Bible says "everything created BY Jesus" ? Does it mean that Jesus Himself is the Creator? No. The Bible says: The world was made THROUGH Him and BY Him... in what manner? God our Father created everything FOR Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ our Lord became the sole reason why God our Father created everything.

Your contention is false, because you cannot understand the simplicity of the meaning of words. The Bible says "...created BY Jesus", then ask the question "why does it say that?".  Why else?  Because JESUS CREATED!  That's why. And if the Bible says Jesus created, then He created. OTOH, to throw that out because you simply don't like it is to equate yourself with God, and declare you know more about Him and His Word than HE does.  Sheer arrogance.

Now, again, I asked:

If Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior is God, and we only have one God, and the Father of Jesus is not the Son [because Jesus Himself is the Son], WHY did Jesus Christ Himself proclaimed that the ONLY true God is the Father - His Father - our Father? If the Father is the only true God, what is Jesus? Is Jesus the Father? If God is made of the three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spririt - and each is recognized as God - how come that Jesus introduced the Father as the only true God?


Simple questions.

Simple answer, but you won't get it.  Although Jesus was God, and was with God, LOWERED HIMSELF, to be found in the form of man. Jesus WILLINGLY subjected Himself (although equal) to the authority of the Father, to become the Son (of God and of man), for the purpose of redeeming mankind. He remains in obedience and subjection to the Father until ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN REDEEMED, and placed under the total and absolute control of the Father.

When Jesus (as son of man) was spoken of as a "good man", He responded with "there is none good except my Father who is in heaven."  Another example of His willing obedience and subjection.

Final word...."...unless you believe {that} I AM, then you will die in your sins."

[felix102]

amen bros

Well, Jury I think the brothers addressed your points very well. There's still a problem with what you think about Romans 1:4
"Who was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness out of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord;"

Why would Jesus have to be designated the Son of God if He was already the Son of God?

This is why:

In eternity past, Jesus was already the only begotten Son of God. However, from His death and resurrection Jesus was designated the Firstborn Son of God. WHY? So that Jesus being the FIRSTborn could have many brothers. In a family with one child, there is no Firstborn. That child is the only child. However, when the parents have another child then that first child is designated to be the Firstborn.

DONT YOU SEE THIS WONDERFUL REVELATION???!!! Jesus through His death and resurrection became the FIRSTBORN SON. That means WE are God's children. Jesus became the Firstborn so that He could have many brothers. God is transforming us into God. God became man so that man can become God. God's purpose is for us to become like Him. So we can glorify God for we are made in His image.

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name

God's purpose for us is to make us His children. Jesus is the Firstborn.

[felix102]

Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. Jesus was not half man and half God. He was fully man and fully God. He was a man carrying the fullness of God. He had to become man to reach man. God came down in the form of man so that He could bring us back to Him.

Fallen man is first 100% man.

After receiving Jesus Christ your spirit has been born again. It is born of God. You are now 100% man and 33.3% God.

As you keep surrendering yourself to God who is in you; God starts to take over your mind, emotion, and will (components of your soul). You are then becoming more like God; 66.6% God.

Then when Jesus comes back and we see Him, our lowly bodies will be instantly transformed into His glorified body. You are then 100%man and 100% God. (NOTE: THIS DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE GOD AS IN THE GODHEAD. THE GODHEAD IS THE OMNIPOTENT ALL-KNOWING UNLIMITED GOD.)

We are then able to reflect God's glory. Where we had once fallen short of the glory of God; we now reflect the complete glory of God. Where once we were unfit to become the bride of Jesus Christ; we are now able for we are then the same species.

You see...we are now united to the Lord and One with Him in spirit (1 cor 6:17). Let us now renew our minds to be one with the Lord in our mind. In the future when Jesus comes back our bodies will be the same as His. Then we will be completely One (phil 3:21). As a husband and wife become one flesh so we become entirely One with God.


Jury, if you only believe that Jesus was a man then you are missing out on a lot of His riches. If Jesus was only a man to you He can do nothing for you. Jesus was not just a man but God. God can do anything (With God nothing is impossible luke 1:37). . Apart from Jesus you can do nothing (john 15:5). However, with Jesus you can do all things (phil 4:13). This is only possible because Jesus is God.

[Allinall]

Not to start a debate on top of another debate, I have to disagree, in part, with you Felix.  Please understand brother that I do so in love.  

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

Hebrews 1:1-3

You said:

Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. Jesus was not half man and half God. He was fully man and fully God. He was a man carrying the fullness of God. He had to become man to reach man. God came down in the form of man so that He could bring us back to Him.

I agree with you completely.  Well said!  You also said:

Fallen man is first 100% man.

Here's where I start to disagree.  Man is, and always will be man.  The difference is that in the beginning, we were made perfect, and in the image of God.  Our sin made us fail as perfect image bearers.  This, I believe, is key in being biblical in our understanding of what it means to be Christlike.  Being like Christ isn't being God.  It's being, as Christ was, the perfect man.  The perfect man reflects God's glory, he doesn't become God.  The perfect man is rewarded with a share of Christ's inheritance, he doesn't become Christ.  The perfect man is blessed with Christ's promise of power in His name, he doesn't become the omnipotent God.  You said:

As you keep surrendering yourself to God who is in you; God starts to take over your mind, emotion, and will (components of your soul). You are then becoming more like God; 66.6% God.

Then when Jesus comes back and we see Him, our lowly bodies will be instantly transformed into His glorified body. You are then 100%man and 100% God.

Again I must disagree.  While surrender does change, it's into the image of Christ that we are changed.  When we are saved, God justifies us by the blood of His perfect Son, Jesus Christ.  In our daily walk with Him, He, through His Word and His Holy Spirit, sanctifies us - changes us into the image of His Son.  When we are before Him in glory, He glorifies us, removing this man of sin and flesh, and making us as we were intended to be - bearers of His glorious image.  Sinless.  Perfect.  But not God.  Mirrors, rather, of God.

I only posted now, so as to avoid misunderstandings that this may cause younger believers.  God is so gracious to us, isn't He?  Praise His name.  

[2nd Timothy]

Not to start a debate on top of another debate, I have to disagree, in part, with you Felix.  Please understand brother that I do so in love.  

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

Hebrews 1:1-3

You said:

Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. Jesus was not half man and half God. He was fully man and fully God. He was a man carrying the fullness of God. He had to become man to reach man. God came down in the form of man so that He could bring us back to Him.

I agree with you completely.  Well said!  You also said:

Fallen man is first 100% man.

Here's where I start to disagree.  Man is, and always will be man.  The difference is that in the beginning, we were made perfect, and in the image of God.  Our sin made us fail as perfect image bearers.  This, I believe, is key in being biblical in our understanding of what it means to be Christlike.  Being like Christ isn't being God.  It's being, as Christ was, the perfect man.  The perfect man reflects God's glory, he doesn't become God.  The perfect man is rewarded with a share of Christ's inheritance, he doesn't become Christ.  The perfect man is blessed with Christ's promise of power in His name, he doesn't become the omnipotent God.  You said:

As you keep surrendering yourself to God who is in you; God starts to take over your mind, emotion, and will (components of your soul). You are then becoming more like God; 66.6% God.

Then when Jesus comes back and we see Him, our lowly bodies will be instantly transformed into His glorified body. You are then 100%man and 100% God.

Again I must disagree.  While surrender does change, it's into the image of Christ that we are changed.  When we are saved, God justifies us by the blood of His perfect Son, Jesus Christ.  In our daily walk with Him, He, through His Word and His Holy Spirit, sanctifies us - changes us into the image of His Son.  When we are before Him in glory, He glorifies us, removing this man of sin and flesh, and making us as we were intended to be - bearers of His glorious image.  Sinless.  Perfect.  But not God.  Mirrors, rather, of God.

I only posted now, so as to avoid misunderstandings that this may cause younger believers.  God is so gracious to us, isn't He?  Praise His name.  

Amen!

Grace and Peace!

[felix102]

Not to start a debate on top of another debate, I have to disagree, in part, with you Felix.  Please understand brother that I do so in love.  

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

Hebrews 1:1-3

You said:

Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. Jesus was not half man and half God. He was fully man and fully God. He was a man carrying the fullness of God. He had to become man to reach man. God came down in the form of man so that He could bring us back to Him.

I agree with you completely.  Well said!  You also said:

Fallen man is first 100% man.

Here's where I start to disagree.  Man is, and always will be man.  The difference is that in the beginning, we were made perfect, and in the image of God.  Our sin made us fail as perfect image bearers.  This, I believe, is key in being biblical in our understanding of what it means to be Christlike.  Being like Christ isn't being God.  It's being, as Christ was, the perfect man.  The perfect man reflects God's glory, he doesn't become God.  The perfect man is rewarded with a share of Christ's inheritance, he doesn't become Christ.  The perfect man is blessed with Christ's promise of power in His name, he doesn't become the omnipotent God.  You said:

As you keep surrendering yourself to God who is in you; God starts to take over your mind, emotion, and will (components of your soul). You are then becoming more like God; 66.6% God.

Then when Jesus comes back and we see Him, our lowly bodies will be instantly transformed into His glorified body. You are then 100%man and 100% God.

Again I must disagree.  While surrender does change, it's into the image of Christ that we are changed.  When we are saved, God justifies us by the blood of His perfect Son, Jesus Christ.  In our daily walk with Him, He, through His Word and His Holy Spirit, sanctifies us - changes us into the image of His Son.  When we are before Him in glory, He glorifies us, removing this man of sin and flesh, and making us as we were intended to be - bearers of His glorious image.  Sinless.  Perfect.  But not God.  Mirrors, rather, of God.

I only posted now, so as to avoid misunderstandings that this may cause younger believers.  God is so gracious to us, isn't He?  Praise His name.  

I wasnt clear. I didnt mean we become God as in the Godhead. That's quite different.

Fallen man is 100% man and 0% God. (not God as in Godhead)

To walk with Christ we must let Christ reign in us. That is how we change. We let Christ take over. He must increase, we must decrease (john 3:30). This is surrendering.

[felix102]

We were made to contain God. And ultimately to be His expression. A father wants his children to look like him. That's what God wants for us; to be like Him. And God is living in us as the spirit transforming us right now.

Jesus was a man carrying the fullness of the Godhead. This is why Jesus is the only way to the Father. He carried divinity in his humanity. He is the link between man, who is 100% humanity, and God who is 100% divinity.

[felix102]

I want you to understand why I choose the numbers:
33.3% (1/3) and 66.6% (2/3).

Our being is made up of 3 parts: spirit, soul, and body.

When we are born again we are born again of the spirit. This is born of God. So one-third of us has divinity or God. Then in our life we let God take over our mind, emotion, and will. This is our soul. So that's two-thirds of who we are. Finally, on Christ's return our bodies will be transformed in the blink of an eye. And our lowly bodies of humiliation will become the glorious bodies. So we are completely -100%- God (not Godhead). In this way we are just like Jesus who is the Firstborn among us who are His brothers. We are also His bride; as we know that man and woman are united as one. All these things point out that we become just like God (not the Godhead).

You see...in the Genesis, Adam found no suitable counterpart after naming and seeing every animal...now mark this...The only suitable counterpart was taken OUT of Adam. From Adam's rib God made woman (word 'woman' for she was taken out of man) to be the counterpart for Adam. She was the flesh of Adam. They were the same species. These things are illustrations.

Before we were constituted with Sin. Now we are constituted with God.