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nChrist
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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2005, 04:08:01 PM »

God is the Creator of all things. (Part Two)

THE WORD ("Logos" from the Greek) is JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD - THE CREATOR.

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:6  There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
John 1:7  The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:8  He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
John 1:9  That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:11  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 John 1:1  That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Revelation 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Psalms 33:6  By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Psalms 147:18  He sendeth out his word, and melteth them: he causeth his wind to blow, and the waters flow.
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Here are a few beautiful portions of Scripture to enjoy:

Job 26:7  He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Psalms 104:5  Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Psalms 104:6  Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
Psalms 104:7  At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
Psalms 104:8  They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
Psalms 104:9  Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

Isaiah 45:18  For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

1 Samuel 2:8  He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

Revelation 7:1  And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Isaiah 40:22  It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Isaiah 66:1  Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Deuteronomy 32:8  When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

Nehemiah 9:6  Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Psalms 102:25  Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

Proverbs 8:22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Proverbs 8:23  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Proverbs 8:24  When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Proverbs 8:25  Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Proverbs 8:26  While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Jeremiah 10:12  He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

Jeremiah 32:17  Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

Jeremiah 27:5  I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me.

John 17:24  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

2 Peter 3:5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Revelation 10:6  And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Revelation 14:7  Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Continued - See Part Three
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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2005, 04:11:43 PM »

God is the Creator of all things. (Part Three)

Our FATHER, THE CREATOR - WHO ART IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE THY NAME:

1 Kings 8:30  And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.

1 Kings 8:39  Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)

1 Kings 8:43  Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.

1 Chronicles 16:31  Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth.

2 Chronicles 2:6  But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

2 Chronicles 6:30  Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men:)

Job 22:12  Is not God in the height of heaven? and behold the height of the stars, how high they are!

Psalms 33:13  The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.

Psalms 123:1  Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens.

Ecclesiastes 5:2  Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

Isaiah 57:15  For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Jeremiah 23:24  Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Daniel 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Daniel 5:23  But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified:

Matthew 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matthew 10:32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:33  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 11:25  At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Matthew 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 18:10  Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 18:14  Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Mark 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Romans 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Revelation 21:22  And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Revelation 21:23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 21:24  And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Revelation 21:25  And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Revelation 21:26  And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Revelation 21:27  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 22:1  And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Revelation 22:2  In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Revelation 22:3  And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Revelation 22:4  And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Revelation 22:5  And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

If you put the portions of Scripture in context, they are beautiful descriptions of Almighty God. The Holy Trinity is a difficult topic for many, especially for the lost, babes and less mature in Christ. This beautiful truth defies human logic, but humans should not be surprised that the power and majesty of Almighty God is far beyond human logic. No beginning and no end is another topic in a long list of beautiful truths about Almighty God that we should just accept with a simple, childlike faith. After all, we are simply humans, part of HIS Creation.
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Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2005, 03:32:13 AM »

Sixpac434,
I hope you are open to receive this. Your understanding of God is selective and limited. God in His very essence is triune yet one. I would invite you to read a very interesting online booklet. Just click on this link: http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.asp?id=180&chapterid=1&sectionid=1&pageid=1
God wants you to know Him in Truth. It is because of His love for you that He has revealed Himself as Triune.

May God bless you as you seek Him with an honest heart.

Keith
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2005, 08:56:02 AM »

and Here is my study again on Jesus deity.
Here's a Bible study I did on whether or not Jesus is God...i'm sure you'll recognize the last half of the second section and the third section. The first section was a response from another forum that i had composed...and i made it into a set of notes for myself...enjoy...God Bless

This is the beginning of my notes and study on whether or not Jesus is God. If He isn’t Lord, then He’s a liar, or even worse, He’s a lunatic. The purpose of these notes is to expel the other two alternatives and to explain in detail Scriptural evidence such that you will make the conclusion yourself that Jesus is indeed God and Lord of All. Enjoy!

(This section on prayer was written in response to a post that someone wrote that Matthew 6:9 was in reality the True Lord’s Prayer, which is not entirely correct as you shall read. It doesn’t have anything to do specifically with Jesus’ deity that I’ve found so I’ve just briefly touched on it)

It's interesting that a person would deny that Jesus is God...someone used the example of the "Lord's" Prayer...that is the lord’s prayer only in that He prayed the words, but that isn't the real Lord's prayer...it is a disciple's prayer. Notice He was telling the Disciples 'Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name..." Pray YE, not I pray. In no way does this prayer embody all of Christ's teachings about Prayer...Now the Prayer in the Garden does as found in John Chapter 17:1-26...Notice first He prays for Himself, then the Believers, then the world:

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
(Joh 17:1-26)

Continued....
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2005, 08:56:44 AM »

 LORD…?
Another point I wish to try to someone who would say that Jesus Christ is not God...The OT has many many references to the Messiah, and only Jesus Christ could have fulfilled these prophecies i.e. the Redeemer. In Isaiah, Isaiah talks about the Redeemer as being the Lord God of Israel. A Redeemer is someone sent to save someone. In Isaiah 52:13-15 we see the Servant being lifted up i.e. killed.  If the Redeemer is not Christ, then who is it? None Else...but that of Jesus of Nazareth
Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
(Isa 49:7-8)
Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astounded at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
(Isa 52:13-15)
Who is it that the Prophet speaks about? None other than Jesus of Nazareth.  Even Jesus Himself said that He was the Son of God and doesn’t deny His deity.

In John 9:35-37 the author records this little conversation between Pharisees and the Messiah, whom they would later crucify, “ Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said Who is He Lord, that I might believe. And he worshiped Him. And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into the world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind” Jesus doesn’t deny His deity. Neither does He do the same thing in the next Chapter of John where He said in verse 30 “I and my Father are one” and even later on in verse 38 “But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him” So how in the world, if Jesus is not God, can He be ‘in’ the Father and the Father be “in” Him if Jesus was simply a man. It’s contradictory to God’s Word that only a human who had the evil fallen nature, someone whose nature was so vile that there is no possible way to redeem himself by an action he himself could perform, could save the world through dying on a cross. This was no simple man, this was God’s Son who had all the characteristics of God, and the body of a man. He was God incarnate to say. John the Author of the Gospel that bears his name writes this to focus on Jesus’ claim to deity:

John 1:1,2,14

In the beginning was THE WORD, and the WORD WAS WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God…And the WORD WAS made flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth.(Emphasis Mine)

Isaiah puts it this way:

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

Now why would Isaiah have put The Almighty God in that statement if he personally believed that a mere man could rule the nations. He probably thought that God Himself was going to rule the nations with His presence and power and might. But still a child. Why would the Almighty come as a child, much less a human man as we see the gender clearly displayed in the words “unto us a SON is given”?(Emphasis mine) Here Isaiah clearly portrays God coming as a man. Now, this had to be truly boggling his mind right about this time, but the Almighty told him to prophesy and write down the Almighty’s Words. Here we see some of the first glimpses of God becoming a man, but not having the sin nature of man simply because He was God and He is Holy, and Just, and True.

We see also in Jeremiah that God will raise up a descendant of David to rule the throne. This man is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.
(REF. Jeremiah 33:14)

Let us look at some Old Testament attributes of the Almighty and some statements Jesus and His followers made.

In the Old Testament, Exodus 3:14, we see Yahweh (God) use these words. “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said Thus shalt say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you” The Almighty says that He is this and He says He is the Beginning and the End in Isaiah 41:4. Amazing, yet it gets even better. Jesus Christ used some similar words to convey His deity that He was God. I shall ask to keep in mind that how can a mere man make these statements and still live in that day and time and have followers if it were not so? Jesus used the words “I Am” seven times while revealing himself as “The Bread of Life” (John 6:35) “The Light of The World (John 8:12); the Door (John 10:9); The Good shepherd (John 10:11); the Resurrection and the Life (11:25), The Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6) and the Vine (John 15:5) His use of the “I AM” without a predicate complement demonstrates that he is in essence the same person with Yahweh in the Old Testament. Jesus also echoes the Almighty’s words that He spoke in Isaiah 41:4:

Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generation from the beginning? I the Lord, the first and with the last; I am He”

Jesus’ spoke these words. Pay attention to the words first and last.

Revelation 1:8

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY (Emphasis mine)

Once again, how could Jesus have said these words if He wasn’t God. Those are only words that God Himself could say with authority. So I propose that Jesus Christ is equal to God and He is God. If you still haven’t made up your mind…or would like a few more examples of Jesus’ deity then read below.

Yet once again, if Jesus was not God, then how is it that man can be forgiven of his sin and be justified and redeemed in the sight of the Almighty through the sacrifice of a mere man? Jesus was no mere man. He was God.

(Cont. In next post)
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2005, 08:57:13 AM »

(Someone had used the example that Jesus could have been a false messiah and that someone else is the Messiah, so that’s why this passage is in here) You are correct in that the false messiah shall come in Revelation...but if you remember, Satan is a counterfeit! He will try to re-create what God has done, notice I said done...means has already come to pass, so common sense would tell me that Satan would try to re-produce a false messiah whom the world would receive...another thing. Notice Jesus' words about this messiah:
I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
(Joh 5:41-44)
Mat 24:15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand).
The abomination of desolation spoken of by Jesus is found in Daniel 9:27
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.
The false messiah will not seek honor from God Almighty, since he is antichrist, he will hate everything that has to do with God and Jesus Christ.
Another point I’d like to express:  If Jesus wasn't God, then how did He have the power to forgive sins? Scripture is clear that only God can forgive sins...let me point you to a few examples:
Mat 9:2 And behold, they brought to Him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, Child, be of good cheer. Your sins are forgiven you.
Mat 9:3 And lo, some of the scribes said within themselves, This one blasphemes.
Mat 9:4 And Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, Why do you think evil in your hearts?
Mat 9:5 For which is easier? To say, Your sins are forgiven you, or to say, Arise and walk!
Mat 9:6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins, then He said to the paralytic, Arise, take up your bed and go to your house.
The Son of Man is Jesus Christ, no such authority can be given unto mankind because mankind has not grieved himself, he has grieved God, and from God and only God can come forgiveness. Thus the only way the paralytic could be forgiven of his sin, was by God Himself. Another example I'd like to point out is the Woman caught in adultery:
(Joh 8:1) But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
(Joh 8:2) And early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him. And He sat down and taught them.
(Joh 8:3) And the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman taken in adultery. And standing her in the midst,
(Joh 8:4) they said to Him, Teacher, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
(Joh 8:5) Now Moses in the Law commanded us that such should be stoned. You, then, what do you say?
(Joh 8:6) They said this, tempting Him so that they might have reason to accuse Him. But bending down, Jesus wrote on the ground with His finger, not appearing to hear.
(Joh 8:7) But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.
(Joh 8:Cool And again bending down, He wrote on the ground.
(Joh 8:9) And hearing, and being convicted by conscience, they went out one by one, beginning at the oldest, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
(Joh 8:10) And bending back up, and seeing no one but the woman, Jesus said to her, Woman, where are the ones who accused you? Did not one give judgment against you?
(Joh 8:11) And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I give judgment. Go, and sin no more.
Now, was Jesus condoning her sin? No, He simply told her to go and sin no more. He was the only one there without sin and thus only He could give that commandment with Authority simply because He was sinless. If Jesus was not God, then He’d have had to have sin in Him and His commandment to go and sin no more would have been empty words and both the paralytic and the woman at the well would still be condemned to hell. Once again, if Jesus wasn’t God, then we are all still in our sins, and have not been forgiven, because it's only through The Messiah we have salvation from the condemnation that our sins have given us!  Jesus said Himself "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, No man cometh unto the Father except through Me" " So tell me this, how is it that Jesus is not God, yet He fulfilled numerous prophecies from the OT, lived a sinless life, forgave men of their sins, was the Ultimate Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world and suffered the most gruesome horrifying death known to man, for men that despised Him. The fact that He lived a sinless life, is enough to support that He was in fact the Word made flesh as John the Apostle put it and the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world as John the Baptist put it. I'm sure that you would agree with me, that mankind is anything but perfect. We are so imperfect as the far as east is to the west...point being, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, paid the sacrifice, so that we may be forgiven of our sins through His atoning blood shed on Calvary. So was Jesus merely a man? If Jesus was man only, God could have raised up, in successive ages, many such living examples of sanctified humanity as Christ was, to correct, instruct, and quicken the world. Yet He did not. Why? How has it come to pass that of all men He alone has risen to spiritual perfection if He is not God? How has it come to pass that in the 10,000 or so years of written History there has been no one else who has changed the world such as the Christ did? Simply because Jesus is God and God alone has the power to save man.
Furthermore, the Old Testament says in Isaiah chapter 43, verse 11, that “I even I, am the LORD, and beside me there is no savior” I want to focus on the last part of this verse. It says “and beside me there is no savior.” The Old Testament was clear that there is no other savior save that of God. So this Jesus of Nazareth…if He wasn’t who He claimed to be He’d be a liar. So tell me…is He Lord, Liar, or a Lunatic? You make the decision yourself…I’ll let Scripture speak for me. If we go by this Scripture alone in saying that Jesus is not God, then we have no hope for salvation. Plain and simple. But wait! Jesus is Lord. The early Christians used this phrase “Christos est gidios” (spelling is a little off being I only saw the phrase once or twice) but it means “Christ is Lord” Why would they call Jesus, Lord if they didn’t mean it. They were calling Him Lord out of reverence to the One who had saved them. As said earlier, if Jesus is not God then we are still in our sins, but yet Peter put it this way in Acts Chapter 4, Verse 12: “Neither is there salvation in any other” for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Emphasis mine) He is basically saying that Salvation comes only through Jesus Christ and thus supports Jesus’ own statement “I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE, NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME” (Emphasis mine) Once again if Jesus wasn’t God then all the New Testament Apostles, Fathers, Elders, and Christians throughout the ages are condemned to hell, but that is not so, for salvation comes only through Jesus. It says “For it is by grace through faith that ye have been saved and not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast” There it is plain as day. Salvation comes only through Jesus. None else
Also I mentioned earlier to make your decision on whether He is Lord, liar or lunatic. You have two alternatives you can make here. In order to fully explain and cover all spectrums of this statement of “Lord, Liar, or Lunatic” I’ll break it down into 2 more sections underscored Liar and Lunatic. The Lord section has been covered in detail first…now we shall study the second and third options.
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2005, 08:57:49 AM »

 LIAR….?
IN this section we shall examine two alternatives that people have come up with throughout the ages…with might I add very little documentation or Scripture to support it i.e. Jehovah’s Witnesses and other cults.
(This section on the view of Jesus as a liar is from Josh McDowell’s “The New evidence that Demands a Verdict)
Was He a liar? If when Jesus made His claims, He knew He was not God, then He was lying. But if He was a liar, then He was also a hypocrite, because He told others to be honest, whatever the cost, while He, at the same time, was teaching a living a colossal lie. (Note: This section isn’t meant as any disrespect to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is just to refute the claims those who do not think Jesus is God have made over the years. Personally, I believe Jesus is God. I am simply attempting to expel any further misconceptions about His deity and to show that He is in fact God)
More than that, He was a demon, because He deliberately told others to trust Him for their eternal destiny. If He could not back up His claims and knew they were false, then He was unspeakably evil…which I may remind you He isn’t. Lastly, He would also be a fool because it was His claims to deity that lead to His crucifixion. We see in Mark 14:61-64 Jesus’ answer to His deity.
Mark 14:61-64
But He kept silent, and made no answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, ‘Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’ “And Jesus said, ‘I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’ “And tearing his clothes, the high priest said, ‘What further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you? “And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death. (NASV)
Also we see in John 19:7 a little clearer picture
John 19:7
“The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God’” (NASV)
If Jesus was a liar, a con man, and there for an evil, foolish man, then how can we explain the fact that He left us with the most profound moral instruction and powerful moral example. That anyone has ever left? Could a deceiver—an imposter of monstrous proportions—teach such unselfish ethical truths and live such a morally and exemplary life as Jesus said? The very notion is incredulous.
John Stuart Mill, the philosopher, skeptic, and antagonist of Christianity, admitted that Jesus was a first-rate ethicist supremely worthy of our attention and emulation. As Mill expressed it:
About the life and saying of Jesus there is a stamp of personal originality combined with profundity of insight in the very first rank of men of sublime genius of whom our species can boast. When this pre-eminent genius is combined with the qualities of probably the greatest moral reformer and martyr to that mission who never existed upon earth, religion cannot be said to have made a bad choice in pitching upon this man as the ideal representative and guide to humanity; nor even now would it be easy, even for an unbeliever, to find a better translation of the rule of virtue from the abstract into the concrete than to endeavor to live so that Christ would approve of our life. (Grounds, Vernon C. “The Reason for our Hope. Chicago: Moody Press 1945)
Throughout history Jesus Christ has captured the hearts and minds of millions who have strived to order their lives after His. Even William Lecky, one of Great Britain’s most noted historians and a dedicated opponent of organized Christianity noted this is his History of European morals from Augustus to Charlemagne:
It was reserved for Christianity to present to the world and ideal character which through all the changes of eighteen centuries has inspired the hearts of men with an impassioned love; has shown itself capable of acting on all ages, nations, temperaments and conditions; has been not only the highest pattern of virtue, but the strongest incentive to hits practice…the simple record of [Jesus’] these three short years of active life has done more to regenerate and soften mankind than all the disquisitions of philosophers and all the exhortations of moralists.
When the church historian Philip Shcaff considered the evidence for Jesus’ deity, especially in light of what Jesus taught and the kind of life He led, Schaff was struck by the absurdity of the explanations designed to escape the logical implications of this evidence. Stated Schaff:
This testimony, if not true, must be down right blasphemy or madness. The former hypothesis cannot stand a moment before the moral purity and dignity of Jesus, revealed in His every word and work, and acknowledged by universal consent. Self-deception in a matter so momentous, and with an intellect in all respects so clear and so sound, is equally out of the question. How could He be an enthusiast or a madman who never lost even the balance of His mind, who sailed serenly over all thr trouble and persecutions, as the sun above the clouds who always returned to the wisest answer to tempting questions, who calmly and deliberately predicted His death on the cross, His resurrection on the third day, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the founding of His Church, the destruction of Jerusalem—predictions that have been literally fulfilled? A character so original, so complete, so uniformly consistent, so perfect, so human and yet so high above all human greatness, can be neither a fraud nor a fiction. The poet, as has been well said, would in this case be greater than the hero. It would take more than a Jesus to invent a Jesus. (Schaff, History of the Christian Church, pg. 109)
In His work the Person of Christ, Schaff revisits the theory that Jesus was a deceiver, and mounts a convincing attack against it:
The hypothesis of imposture is so revolting to moral as well as common sense, that its mere statement is its condemnation…No scholar of any decency and self-respect would now dare profess it openly. How, in the name of logic, common sense, and esperience, could an impostor—that is a deceitful, selfish, deprived man—have invented, and consistently maintained from the beginning to end, the purest and noblest character known in history with the most perfect air of truth and reality? How could he have conceived and successfully carried out a plan of unparalleled beneficence, moral magnitude, and sublimity, and sacrificed his own life for it, in the face of the strongest prejudices of his people and ages? (Schaff, TPOC, pgs. 94 and 95)
The answer of course, is that Jesus could not have! Someone who lived as Jesus lived, taught as Jesus taught, and died as Jesus died could not have been a liar. So what are the other alternatives?
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2005, 08:58:17 AM »

 LUNATIC…?
If it is inconceivable for Jesus to have been a liar, then could He have though He was God but have been mistake? After all it is possible to be both sincere and wrong. But we must remember that for someone to think he was God, especially in a culture that was fiercely monotheistic, then to tell others that their eternal destiny depends on believing in him, was no slight flight of fantasy but the thoughts of a lunatic in the fullest sense. Was Jesus Christ such a person?
Christian philosopher Peter Kreeft presents this option, then shows why we must reject it:
A measure of your insanity is the size of the gap between what you think you are and what you really are. If I think that I am the greatest philosopher in America, I am only an arrogant fool; if I think I am Napoleon, I am probably of the edge; if I think that I am a butterfly, I am fully embarked from the sunny shores of sanity. But if I think I am God, I am even more insane because the gap between any finite and the infinite God is even greater than the gap between any two finite things, even a man and a butterfly. Well then, why [was not Jesus a] liar or a lunatic? Almost no one who has read the Gospels can honestly and seriously consider that option. The savviness, the canniness, the human wisdom, the attractiveness of Jesus emerge from the Gospels with unavoidable force to any but the most hardened and prejudiced reader…. Compare Jesus with liars. Or lunatic like the dying Nietzsche. Jesus has in abundance precisely those three qualities that liars and lunatics most conspicuously lack: (1) his practical wisdom, his ability to read human hearts; (2) his deep and winning love, his passionate compassion, his ability to attract people and make them feel at home and forgiven, his authority, “not as the scribes”; (3) his ability to astonish, his unpredictability, his creativity. Liars and lunatics are all so dull and predictable! No one who knows both the Gospels and human beings can seriously entertain the possibility that Jesus was a liar or a lunatic, a bad man. (Kreeft, Fundamentals of the Faith, pgs 60 and 61)
Even Napoleon Bonaparte went on record as saying:
I know men; and I tell you that Jesus Christ is not a man. Superficial minds see a resemblance between Christ and the founders of empires, and the gods of other religions. That resemblance does not exist. There is between Christianity and whatever other religions the distance of infinity….Everything in Christ astonishes me. His spirit overawes me, and His will confounds me. Between Him and whoever else in the world, there is no possible term of comparison. He is truly a being by Himself. His ideas and sentiments, the truth which He announces, His manner of convincing, are not explained by either human organization or by the nature of things….The nearer I approach, the more carefully I examine, everything is above me—everything remains grand, of a grandeur which overpowers. His religion is a revelation from an intelligence which certainly is not that of man…On can absolutely find nowhere, but in Him alone, the imitation or example of His life…I search in vain in history to find the similar to Jesus Christ, or anything which can approach the gospel. Neither history, nor humanity, nor the ages, nor nature offer me anything with which I am able to compare it or to explain it. Here everything is extraordinary. (Grounds. “Reason for our Hope.” PG 37)
There you have it. Three different options that one can choose to believe. We had a Trilemma on our hands. Was Jesus Lord, Liar, or Lunatic. Any person in their right mind who has read to this point will see that Jesus Christ is in fact God and He is Lord over all Creation.
Josh McDowell has put together into words what I could have only dreamed of putting together into words about the Liar and Lunatic sections of this study. He has shown the statements and the argument for and successfully refuted it using outside sources. Earlier in these notes I myself covered the Lord section on support on Jesus’ deity. I shall let His Word speak for itself. I pray I have not been to exhaustive and Lord willing this will be the first draft of many more of this subject and many others. I pray you enjoyed reading these notes and study material. I also pray that the Lord has spoken to you about this subject if you are unsure about whether or not Jesus Christ is God. The Scriptures speak for themselves and attest to that very fact. I pray that if you do not believe that Jesus is God, or in the Trinity, then I pray that the Lord will show you the Truth through His Word. I will let that speak for itself.
May all who read this be richly blessed by our Creator and bask in His mercies and grace.
God Bless!
In His Service,
Joshua
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2005, 12:27:56 PM »

AMEN BROTHER JOSHUA!!!

Brother, I really enjoyed your message. Maybe it is a good thing that this question is raised yet again. We can all reflect again on the Majesty and Love of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. There is no topic that comes close to the importance of Jesus Christ. I hope and pray that Christians are further strengthened by this thread. I also hope and pray that the lost read this thread with an open heart to meet the LORD OF LORDS, our Saviour, Jesus Christ!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2005, 12:52:46 PM »

man dude, what's with the shouting. i know i'm deaf, but if you keep on shouting at me, i'm going to be even deafer...if that's a word...lol. I can do nothing of myself...it's all Christ. That should be every Christian's cry. God Bless

Joshua
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2005, 05:29:16 PM »

Jemidon,

Anytime it is Gods word or in support of Gods word, it deserves a healthy shout of AMEN! I join with blackeyedpeas in this,  AMEN!



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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2005, 03:17:49 AM »

Zechariah 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts: "After the glory hath He sent me unto the nations which despoiled you, for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of His eye.

   
   9For behold, I will shake Mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants. And ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.

   
   10"Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion; for lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee," saith the LORD. 11"And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be My people; and I will dwell in the midst of thee. And thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

Think and ask yourself "who sent who in this passage?"

The LORD sent the LORD!

The Father sent the Son. They are both LORD, that is JHVH. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."

asaph
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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2005, 08:30:12 AM »

LOL...I was just kidding around...though...i'm a pretty quiet guy so i don't shout much Smiley ya'll can shout...i think i'll save my voice for shouting in Glory. Smiley God Bless

Joshua
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2005, 05:54:19 PM »

AMEN BROTHER ASAPH!!

I love that portion of Scripture and many other portions that proclaim the absolute Majesty of our LORD. I was just thinking about how small, insignificant, and unworthy I am, YET Jesus died for me, THE JUST FOR THE UNJUST!

He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, YET he allows me to come into his presence with prayer, praise, and worship. In fact, HE sent His Holy Spirit to live in my heart as a guide and comforter. It makes me very sad to know that many of the lost consider the preaching of the Cross as foolishness. If they only knew and understood what Jesus did for them, they would be on their knees or prone with us in thanks, appreciation, praise, and worship. Jesus is the most precious GIFT that anyone can ever receive, but many still reject Him for the things and traditions of this world.

I pray that God will soften their hearts and let them hear the WORD. Faith does come from hearing HIS WORD, but one has to listen to get the message. I do know absolutely that THE WORD is powerful and is never wasted. THE WORD is sharper than any sword, and I pray that it pierces the hardened hearts of the lost. The greatest and most precious event of a Christians life is the moment that THE WORD pierced their hearts.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 62:7  In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.

Psalms 28:7  The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.

Romans 5:17-18  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Acts 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

I Corinthians 2:5  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Psalms 18:46  The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

Ephesians 1:12-14  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I Peter 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

John 8:12  Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Colossians 1:12-14  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Romans 5:6  For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Psalms 100:1-5  Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands. Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing. Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture. Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name. For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
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« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2005, 02:51:11 PM »

Smiley makes me think of the Scriptures that say "Come out and be seperate from them" and Romans 12:1 "I urge you therefore brethren to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, Holy and acceptible unto God, this is your reasonable act of Worship."

God Bless

In Christ,
Joshua
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