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Author Topic: Is Tithing for New Covenant Believers?  (Read 5349 times)
MalkyEL
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« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2005, 10:41:17 PM »

cris wrote:
I thought it was against the OT law to heal on the Sabbath.  Jesus healed on the Sabbath.  Or, maybe it was never against the law in the first place.  Maybe that's what man added to the law.  Didn't the Pharisees accuse Him of breaking the law or their interpretation of what the law was?

He (Jesus) did say He didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.  

nana:
One of the things Jesus did was to refute additions to the Law of Moses, called "fences" or "borders".  These "laws" were added to keep people from accidentally disobeying God's Law [Mosaic Law].  Those added fences were never instructed by God, but were man's tradition.  Jesus was against the "traditons of men".

Healing was never prohibited on the Sabbath.  Doing good for your neighbor was to be held above the Sabbath prohibition.  For instance, if a neighbors donkey or sheep fell in a hole on the Sabbath, then you were to help me haul it out.  Jesus was saying that people are no less important to God.

Jesus did not abolish the Law if He fulfilled it, right?  Grin

Joshua wrote:
p.s. If Christ didn't fulfill the Law, and broke the OT Law, then we're still in our sins, and that owuld mean that Christ sinned...which is saying that God is sin, and that He is impure, which is contrary to Scripture...follow me. So NO Christ did not break OT Law. How could He break it when HE WAS THE LAW! lol. GB

nana:
I am curious as to where the concept came from that Jesus had to keep OT law in order to be the Perfect sacrifice.  Do you have scripture support for that?

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cris
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« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2005, 10:44:51 PM »

cris wrote:
Jesus broke the OT law, so how was it valid until His death.

nana:
because God said it was Smiley

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.


Hebrews was written 30 years afterwards.

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MalkyEL
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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2005, 11:10:37 PM »

cris wrote:
Hebrews was written 30 years afterwards.

nana:
could you be a little more specific?  thanx  Grin
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« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2005, 11:30:57 PM »

cris wrote:
Hebrews was written 30 years afterwards.

nana:
could you be a little more specific?  thanx  Grin

I think it began in reply #8.  You said the old law was valid until Christ's death.  I asked you, if all of a sudden, just like that, the N.C. of Grace took effect and everything changed.   The scripture you gave for this was in Hebrews which was written 30 or so years after the fact.  Yes, I know other NT scripture was written later, also.  I guess I'm having a difficult time putting into words what I'm thinking.  Let's see, Christ was putting the NC of Grace into effect "as" He taught, but it wasn't fully effective until He said, "It is finished."  


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MalkyEL
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« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2005, 11:43:10 PM »

cris wrote:
 Let's see, Christ was putting the NC of Grace into effect "as" He taught, but it wasn't fully effective until He said, "It is finished."  

nana:
Correct.  There was a transitional time, but in God's time frame it was already in effect.  Just because man was not aware until he was told [heard the gospel message] does not mean it was not in effect the moment Jesus died.

God's Word has no time frame.  It matters little "when" Hebrews was written to His whole scheme of things.  When Paul wrote Hebrews, he was explaining how the New Covenant came into effect - it is important to remember this because his writings often times are written in the present tense, but refer to the past.

Also, just for a little extra "nuance":

Rev 13:8 And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.

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Be mindful of the prisoners, as having been bound with them; of those ill-treated, as also being in the body yourselves.  Hebrews 13:3
cris
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« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2005, 06:20:23 PM »



Thanks guys--------now I'm really confused.

Silver, I'm going to let you and MalkyEL hash this one out.  I'll just keep reading what you two post.  Maybe I'll get TOTALLY confused then. Grin  Yikes!!

cris
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MalkyEL
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« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2005, 06:22:05 PM »

Silver wrote:
The New Covenant of grace DID NOT immediately go into effect the moment that Christ died.  In fact, the Lord gave the Jews a 40-year window to set in motion the New Covenant.  At the end of those 40 years God allowed the Romans to destroy the temple and officially end the period of the Law.  This is another sign of grace from the Father, that He would give the Jews 40 more years after Jesus’ death to begin the transformation from Law to grace.  40 in the bible refers to a period of testing, and this is what God did in regards to ending the period of the Law.  God is good.  

nana:
I see.  So the New Covenant was not in effect, which means the daily sacrifice for sin needed to be continued until 70AD.  Interesting, since God rent the veil of the temple in two the moment Jesus died   Roll Eyes

So where is it scripture that God said there was a 40 year grace period after Jesus died before the New Covenant is in effect Huh

ps:  Jesus said that He fulfilled all the law and the prophets.
 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 06:24:15 PM by MalkyEL » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2005, 07:28:39 PM »



Thanks guys--------now I'm really confused.

Silver, I'm going to let you and MalkyEL hash this one out.  I'll just keep reading what you two post.  Maybe I'll get TOTALLY confused then. Grin  Yikes!!

cris
Grin

So where is it scripture that God said there was a 40 year grace period after Jesus died before the New Covenant is in effect Huh

ps:  Jesus said that He fulfilled all the law and the prophets.
 
There is no scripture that gives a 40 year Grace. Least I haven't ever found, such a verse.

Quote
Jesus said that He fulfilled all the law and the prophets.
Praise God!! that Jesus did fulfill the law! Smiley
« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 07:29:40 PM by DreamWeaver » Logged

Reba
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« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2005, 09:20:25 PM »

Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
KJV


This sure isn't the Old Covenant
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MalkyEL
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« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2005, 10:27:41 AM »

Accord to Heb 10, Jesus died ONCE for all.  By saying that the sacrifices that continued for approx 40 were sanctified by God is saying that Jesus sacrifice was not enough.

It is true that the sacrifice was done, and it was God's grace to allow the Jews 40 years to stop - but those sacrifices were null and void once Jesus said It is Finished.  Those words are referring to the Law, which was the standard by which sin was made known.  Jesus, when He said "It is Finished" was referring to the Old Covenant, which included the sacrifice for sin and the whole Law.

Many of the eyes were blinded by the Hebrews and their leaders, and refused to accept Him as Messiah, so they continued the sacrificial system out of rebellion.

Col 2:13 ¶ And you, being dead in the deviations and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all the deviations,
14 blotting out the handwriting in the ordinances against us, which was contrary to us, even He has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross;
15 having stripped the rulers and the authorities, He made a show of them in public, triumphing over them in it.

Hbr 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

Jesus also said, the New Covenant was in His shed blood - not 40 years later. He said This IS the New Covenant in His shed blood, not This WILL BE the New Covenant.

The sacrifices for sin were done on a voluntary basis, so therefore I do not believe the disciples ever did the sacrifices for sin again.  If they had, they would have been in rebellion, sacrificing Jesus over again.

As I said before, Paul's words are sometimes misunderstood because he spoke in the present tense of times past.  This is very clear in all of his epistles.

God does not  "enforce" a covenant.  It is a gift, and the New Covenant was valid and in place the moment Jesus said, It is Finished.  Yes, there was grace for a transitional period for understanding and compliance, but the New Covenant was in effect, in spite of.

If you say the covenant was not in effect until 40 years later, then every believer who believed on Jesus for salvation between His death and the destruction of the temple did not receive that which they believed.

The veil was rent in two - HELLO!!!!!!!!   Grin

Rev 13:8 And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.

shalom, nana
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« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2005, 12:43:47 PM »

IS TITHING FOR NEW COVENANT BELIEVERS?


Is it or isn't it?





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« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2005, 03:09:41 PM »

IS TITHING FOR NEW COVENANT BELIEVERS?


Is it or isn't it?

No.

Cheerful (without grudging) giving is.
Giving whatever is required at the time (be it 1% or 100%) is.
Giving of money, increase, goods, things in hand, time, talent or skills is, depending on what is required to fulfill the need AND requirement of God.

Tithing as understood is part of the mosaic law, is not 10% as commonly represented, and is a tax for the support of the state (governement) and church (levitical priesthood).

There is NO NT example of the Apostles or disciples tithing, or commanding to tithe.
There is NO NT example of Jesus tithing (other than paying the Roman tax upon entry into a city).

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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2005, 03:17:59 PM »

'pologies if my answer was short. Here's more.

 "present yourselves a living sacrifice...which is your just and reasonable service".

Tithing was first adopted at the Synod of Macon in 585 AD, where compulsory payment of tithes was demanded under the warning of excommunication.

Jesus did not receive tithes. Jesus was supported by "gifts" (Lk. 8:3, 9:1-6 10:3-16, Matt 10:1-10; Mk 6:7-11).
Jesus did not teach the apostles, the disciples, or His followers about tithing. Though He spoke a lot about money and giving, Jesus did not mention the tithe as being obligatory for believers who followed Him.
Did the apostles teach tithing? No record.
Did the apostles tithe? No record.
Did the early church tithe? No record.
Did any New Testament believer tithe or give money to "get" something from God? No. The only one who tried got reamed out by Peter, told to repent and "get right or get left!!"

Voluntary liberal giving is listed as a "spiritual gift" in Romans 12:8.

Acts 2:42-46  "…Selling their possessions and goods, THEY GAVE TO ANYONE AS HE HAD NEED"

Acts 11:28-30 tells how "…Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world… The disciples, each ACCORDING to HIS ABILITY, DECIDED to provide help for the brothers living in Judea" (see also 20:34-37, 24:17, Rom. 15:25-26).

Hebrews 7:12  "The priesthood being changed (the Levitical priesthood determined by physical birth changed into the priesthood of Jesus Christ and the priesthood of the believer), OF NECESSITY THERE IS A CHANGE OF THE LAW (a change into a new understanding and application of the OT principles – such as circumcision, sacrifices, tithing, etc). A NEW PRIESTHOOD has come, not according to the Law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless LIFE"

1 Corinthians 9:14 "Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should LIVE FROM the gospel." Yes, we should support all those that feed us. That means the pastor, traveling minister, teacher, prophet, evangelist, and apostle. The rightful church and all her ministers have the right to expect provision (see Matt 8:22, 10:10, Gal. 6:6 – an elder is worth double honor and we don’t muzzle the ox).

1 Cor. 16:1-2 "Now about the collection for God's people… On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come NO COLLECTIONS will have to be made"

Even though poor, the Macedonians had a "rich generosity" that was beyond their ability. That giving was, "ENTIRELY ON THEIR OWN!" These particular believers thought it to be a privilege to share with the saints in need. They excelled in what was called the "GRACE OF GIVING." Giving was considered a test of their love. (2 Cor. 8:2-11). Notice particularly verse twelve, "For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable…"

2 Corinthians 9:7 "Each man should give what HE HAS DECIDED IN HIS HEART (in other words, giving with "no strings") to give, not reluctantly OR UNDER COMPULSION (‘anagke’ under constraint, coercion, or distress) for God loves a cheerful (hilarious, prompt, and willing) giver."

Gal 2:9-10 "James, Peter and John… agreed that we (Paul and Barnabas) should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. ALL THEY ASKED was that we should continue to REMEMBER THE POOR, the very thing I was eager to do"

Heb 13:16 "But to DO GOOD AND TO SHARE forget not: for with SUCH SACRIFICES God is well pleased" (see also 2Tim 4:6, 1 Pet. 2:5).


Rom 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5
So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;
7
Or ministry, [let us wait] on [our] ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8
Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, [let him do it] with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

You'll notice that giving (as in monetarily) is just one aspect of living a spirit filled Christian life, that it is classed as a gift (certainly indicating that not all are either gifted in that manner, nor are blessed to be able to), and that in the doing of any of these things (including giving of money), we are then proving what is the good, acceptable, and perfect will of God.


"the poor you will always have with you"
"When I was hungry, and naked, and in prison, you came to me..."
"whosoever sees a brother in need, and has it in his hand to help, and doesn't help, then how can the Love of God live within you?"
"Quench not the Holy Spirit"
"Is not this the fast that I have declared to you? To help the oppressed, to set free the prisoners, to deal justly with your fellow man?"
"Don't worry about tomorrow....it will take care of itself."

While not one of those scriptures is perfectly and correctly quoted, I believe that it is essence of what they say. We are to do what we can with what we have when we see a need, AND the Lord says to do it.  To do anything less is to grieve and quench the Holy Spirit, and is not pleasing to God.  And no percentage can be set on it.
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cris
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« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2005, 01:04:35 PM »

IS TITHING FOR NEW COVENANT BELIEVERS?


Is it or isn't it?

No.

Cheerful (without grudging) giving is.
Giving whatever is required at the time (be it 1% or 100%) is.
Giving of money, increase, goods, things in hand, time, talent or skills is, depending on what is required to fulfill the need AND requirement of God.

Tithing as understood is part of the mosaic law, is not 10% as commonly represented, and is a tax for the support of the state (governement) and church (levitical priesthood).

There is NO NT example of the Apostles or disciples tithing, or commanding to tithe.
There is NO NT example of Jesus tithing (other than paying the Roman tax upon entry into a city).



Evangelist,

Thanks for your posts.  They were both informative.  The question has finally been answered!  

cris

 

   
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