Predestination

[Draxx]

If God knows everything(being omniscient and all), wouldn't he know who goes to heaven or hell? How is this not predestination?

[No Gray Areas]

God gave us a free will, we have a choice to beleive or not, God wont force His will on us

[Joey]

This is one of those questions that i really use to wrestle with. Yes, God does give us free will and does not force us into anything. But he also knows how things work out, knowing everything, past, present and future. So ultimately, does God know if a person will spend eternity in Heaven or in hell? I believe yes he does.

As i said, i really struggle with this and in the end, i have accepted that this is one of those deep things that i don't understand and i feel that God will reveal at a later time or when we are in eternity.

Would be interested in others thoughts on this.

[Allinall]

I'm convinced by God's word that He chose to save me from before the foundations of the earth, and that somewhere along the line, I made a decision that had eternal consequence.  

[Jemidon2004]

Talk about a loaded question. I have a few thoughts on the subject. I'm with Allinall to a certain extent. God knows whether or not we'll come to Christ and when. It's called foreknowledge. To say that God has fore-ordained us to go to heaven or hell is contradictory to Scripture. God doesn't send us to hell...we send ourselves there. Alot of people lump Foreordination and Foreknowledge together. when in fact they are specifically different. God knows those who will accept His Son and will not accept HIs Son as Lord. As for the Free will issue...i believe in free moral agency after Salvation, but free will before Salvation i'm not much on. I believe that man in his un-regenerate state does not have the free will to come to Christ on his own ability. simply beacause it is impossible for un-regenerate man, who is accustomed to doing evil, to suddenly choose that which is Holy and Good in God's eyes, without the assistance of the Holy Spirit. I wish I had more time to go into it, but that's pretty much along the lines of what I believe. Joey...you are right...God doesn't force us into anything, and He gives us the choice, but do remember, that Salvation is initiated by God as He is Sovereign over all things...even our own salvation. Just a few thoughts! God Bless

In His Service,
Joshua

p.s. saying that God knows who will and who will not go to heaven is not a free token to just sit back and let Him do all the work. Some have gotten lazy with this view and think that evangelism is pointless...don't get that way!

[Reba]

Eph 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
KJV

Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
KJV

One of my favorite lines is this : according to the good pleasure of his will,

I am thankfull my salvation is in His will and not my human willfull sinning nature.

What ever God does is Godly even if 'all knowing man' doesn't think so.


Rom 9:14-19

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
KJV


 Who amoung us sinners, without His adoption, (see above)  is any better than Pharaoh?


Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
KJV

The above verses are as much the Word of God as John 3:16. My mind is simple and accepting of His Word, even though i cannot grasp all it contains.

[Patzt]

The above verses are as much the Word of God as John 3:16. My mind is simple and accepting of His Word, even though i cannot grasp all it contains.

AMEN, Reba!  Amen!  Nor can I grasp all that the Word of God contains nor can anyone I don't believe.

I asked a friend about this not long ago and here's the reply and I agree with it...

I too struggled with that question, but, thanks be to God alone, He brought me to understand that He and He alone is GOD.  

He has predestined us to adoption as children to Himself through our Lord Jesus Christ.  I don't know why everyone has such trouble with this--after all, if God didn't choose and effectually call us then there would be no Christians at all.

We all rejected Him in Adam, and that is where we must stay until lifted up out of the mire.  PTL

[Bluewolf]

I was presented with this free will vs predestination as an early Christian. I read all of their verses supporting their views and even read a few theological books about it. As far as I could tell, both wer true,even if I could not then understand it.  

I really do not think that many understand predestination as it relates to free will. I did not really understand it then, just figured it was a type of 'godly' predestination, that was beyond my human comprehension.

This is what I currently think. All are called. The pull of the holy spirit on some is much stronger in some than others, so while all get the invitation, some are chosen, it is almost an irresestible pull. This would fit in with 'my view of predestination.

The free will would tend to lean me to believe that all are not only called, but called with equal force, so that it is entirely free will. But considering our depraved souls, few will come, unless the Holy spirit pulls them really hard.

Some come easier and the pull does not have to be as strong, but IMO, if you are of the chosen the pull is very much stronger, which brings up the question of 'why not both'?

In God's grace, all are called. So each does have a choice to come. If they are not of the chosen (those He has specifically chosen), but still come, God accepts them because they heard His voice. This would imply that both happen.

This is just throwing out another possibility which i can not prove by scripture. But I also think that this issue is pretty hard for a human being to totally understand anyway, which is why there are so many fights on it.

A for example- say I have a friend, a pretty good person  who thinks christianity sounds good, but they do not have what I call pull that is so strong that they cannot resist, like a compulsion. They go to church and they decide, 'why not', it sounds pretty good. They heard the call, even if it was not as strong as the call on others and they heeded that gentle call. In their case,The decision was free will.

Then take someone like me, no way was God going to let me get away. I was never allowed to get very far before I was sent 'messengers' in droves, like being spammed, and there was something put inside of me that life without Him was torture. The pull was so strong, it was a compulsion, God chose me and He was going to get me. And even when I tried to get away, I had this all powerful being dragging me back towards Him. To resist was futile.

So all got a call and one came of free will. The other person was chosen and had no choice, they were predestined.

Laura

[felix102]

Laura, I'm aware of this line of thinking. To add a little to it, I think the "weaker" pull is affected on those who are well off in the world (ie born into a rich family or life relatively free from hardship). Whereas the "stronger" pull appears to affect people with a harder life.

This is clearly seen and understood. I know a lot of people from China that become extremely devout Christians when they come to the United States. This is due to the spiritual oppression they've endured under the iron hand of communism. This sharply contrast with the people I know here who take for granted the freedom of religion. I'm sure glad I was born here!  

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I hear you Jerimdon. I decided to take this idea off. It has little to do with scripture, its really confusing, and I barely understand it. I dont want to give you the wrong information or confuse myself and everyone else.  

[Jemidon2004]

Don't know about the rest of you gys, but that just flew right over my head...lol. All that science talk confused me...lol. Let's stick to Scripture shall we? lol. God Bless!

Joshua

[Bluewolf]

Laura, I'm aware of this line of thinking. To add a little to it, I think the "weaker" pull is affected on those who are well off in the world (ie born into a rich family or life relatively free from hardship). Whereas the "stronger" pull appears to affect people with a harder life.

This is clearly seen and understood. I know a lot of people from China that become extremely devout Christians when they come to the United States. This is due to the spiritual oppression they've endured under the iron hand of communism. This sharply contrast with the people I know here who take for granted the freedom of religion. I'm sure glad I was born here!  

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I hear you Jerimdon. I decided to take this idea off. It has little to do with scripture, its really confusing, and I barely understand it. I dont want to give you the wrong information or confuse myself and everyone else.  

What you say sounds logical and with the reasoning of our finite minds would make sense. But, I was born into affluence, I lacked nothing at that time. Yet the pull was so strong. And the pull remained, regardless of what I was going through. To resist was futile:) And even in others I knew in affluence, the pull was strong in many of them too and not so strong in others. But many of them chose to come also.

The way to make this scriptural is for a person to go read the biblical references on each side of this issue, because there are hundreds, at least.

Laura