The Sins of Baal vs The Sins of America

[oneBook]

Nana, here is the passage sulfurdolphin was talking about (Egypt being saved)-
Isaiah 19:23-
23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrians will come into Egypt and the Egyptians into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians. 24 In that day Israel will be the third {party} with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, 25 whom the LORD of hosts has blessed, saying, "Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance."

The new covenant (not NT covenant), is made with Israel (as in Heb. 10:16 which is a quote of Jer. 31:31).

-oneBook

[MalkyEL]

It is obvious from the context of Isaiah 19 and 20 that to say that all of Egypt will be saved is rather shakey.  It looks more like they will be destroyed.

The New Covenant is for all believers in Jesus Christ as Savior.  [there is neither Jew or Greek, male or female, slave or free] Rom 9,10,11.

Shalom, Nana

[Sulfurdolphin]

 You need to read further into Isaiah chapter 19 in verse 18-25 reveals the Blessings and Salvation of Egypt Assyria and Israel . God's prophecies are never shakey only our understandings if we are not familar.


And it iwll be for a sign and for a witness to the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt for they will cry to the Lord because of the oppresors and He will send them a Saviour and a Mighty One and HE will deliver them. Then the Lord will be known to  Egypt and the Egyptians will know the Lord in that day and will make a scarifice and offering yes they will make a vow to the Lord and perform it. And the Lord will strike Egypt HE will strike and heal it they will return to the Lord and HE will be entreated by them and heal them. In that day there will be a highway from EGypt to Assyria and the Assyrian will come into Egypt  and the Egyptian into Assyria and the Egyptians will serve with the Asyrians.
    In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria a blessing in the midst of the land whom the Lord of hosts shall bless saying "Blessed is Egypt My people and Assyria the work of My hands and Israel My inheritance."

This correlation fits with Zechariah 14:16-19
 And it shall be, everyone who is left of all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, whoever will not come up from all the families of the earth to Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, even on them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up, nor come in, they shall have no rain, but the plague with which the LORD shall strike the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This shall be Egypt's offense, and the offense of all the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

 Michael

[oneBook]

MalkyEl,

Romans 9, 10, and 11 demonstrate that Gentiles have been graphted into Israel.  The verse you quoted is
Gal. 3:27-29
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

So, when we are part of Messiah (the King of Israel), we become part of Israel.  This is emphasized by Paul's statement that we become Abraham's descendants, heirs according to the promise.  This language was normally reserved for Israelites, but Paul was showing that family line is not what makes you part of Israel (aka, the Church), but whether or not the King of Israel is your king.  Being clothed in Messiah means doing the deeds He spoke of (deeds in Jewish culture are a symbol of one's works) by the Spirit.
Note that while there is no male of female in Messiah, most churches still have a men's bathroom and a woman's bathroom. It doesn't mean there is no difference at all, it means there is no difference in regards to membership in God's people.  Paul even gives different advice to women than to men in Titus (and 1 Cor 11) as well as other places.

Show me a verse where people are included in the covenant that are not called any of these terms by Paul-
children of Abraham
fellow citizens
fellow heirs
Israel
saints (lit. the holy ones)
the circumcision (or circumcised)
God's household
adopted sons

These are all terms that refer to Israel.
Paul never makes a distinction between "Church" and Israel. The word translated "Church" is a Greek word that was used to refer to Israel - ekklesia. It was used to refer to different groups (or "Churches") that met in the Temple, so of course, those that followed the Messiah were their own church as well. It could best be viewed as "assembly".  The word church was a latin word later used to translate the Greek ekklesia.

-oneBook

[nChrist]

Onebook Said:

These are all terms that refer to Israel.
Paul never makes a distinction between "Church" and Israel. The word translated "Church" is a Greek word that was used to refer to Israel - ekklesia. It was used to refer to different groups (or "Churches") that met in the Temple, so of course, those that followed the Messiah were their own church as well. It could best be viewed as "assembly".  The word church was a latin word later used to translate the Greek ekklesia.

-oneBook

Brother,

This is completely false, and everything Paul wrote is the complete opposite of what you just said.

The Church Paul spoke of is the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, not a church built with human hands and obviously not Israel. 100% of the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST are saved. Israel is close to the opposite, as Israel rejected Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

This may help you with your confusion. Paul prayed for the salvation of Israel. Israel was not , is not, and never will be the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. There are a few of Israel who have accepted Jesus Christ, and individually they are members of the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

Israel and the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST are almost exact opposites. God will still be dealing with Israel long after HIM taking the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST home to glory. If one doesn't understand this most basic fact, reading Bible prophecy would be like putting a puzzle together without any of the pieces.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Sulfurdolphin]

 The jewish people who have not accepted Christ by the time of the Messiah's return. When Christ splits the mount of olives the Messiah will reveal His hand to the jewish people and in that they will be universally saved by the Messiah's Salvation. Israel is from God and He is called Sion, Any Jew and believer in Christ is the Body of Christ i agree with your premise on that issue.And I also agree to a certain level that there are non jewish believers in the Messiah and it is the gentile believers who are to make the Jewish people Jealous for the God of Sion. We have to keep in mind one day all of Israel and the Church will be one body for now i would say it is a Partial body in Christ to those who are Jewish believers that correlate to the gentile belivers in christ. Not all of Israel are lost and it's true that most of the jewish people rejected God there Messiah that God has not forgotten them in fact Israel and God will one day be Married together again. The body of christ will be here on earth when the Messiah returns and that is when God will automatically Heal Israel and restore them. God will not judge them since they have already been judged by not having God as their King but only a human king they wanted which God did not want them to have

Michael

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

This type of gross confusion on something so basic makes me very sad. It certainly explains why so many other areas of the Holy Bible are also confusing.

I'll have to pray about this and decide if I wish to contend on this issue. Regardless, I will be praying for those mired in confusion.

Israel has a hard road ahead and will be dealt with by Almighty God. The Church which is THE BODY OF CHRIST will be in Glory with Jesus, and God will still be dealing with Israel. God's promises to the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST and those to Israel are two different sets of promises, but both sets of promises will most definitely be fulfilled by God at His appointed time.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[MalkyEL]

oneBook wrote:
Romans 9, 10, and 11 demonstrate that Gentiles have been graphted into Israel.

Nana:
We are grated into the Vine.  The Vine is not Isra'el.  The Vine is Jesus.  He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no man comes unto the Father but through Him.

Jesus is also the Root of the Vine:
Rev 22:I, Jesus, sent My angel to testify these things to you over the assemblies. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright and morning Star.

[oneBook]

The confusion I think comes because Paul talks of 2 Israels-
Believing Israel (aka the Church, of which I am a part), and unbelieving Israel (physical unbelieving Israel).  The Messiah is referred to as Israel
Isaiah 49:1-6
1 Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me. 2 He has made My mouth like a sharp sword, In the shadow of His hand He has concealed Me; And He has also made Me a select arrow, He has hidden Me in His quiver. 3 He said to Me, " You are My Servant, Israel, In Whom I will show My glory." 4 But I said, "I have toiled in vain, I have spent My strength for nothing and vanity; Yet surely the justice {due} to Me is with the LORD, And My reward with My God." 5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength), 6 He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

Note in verse 3 particularly, that Messiah is referred to as "Israel".  He is the vine and/or tree, and in Romans, that is what we are grafted into.

Additionally, Paul uses the remnant concept to show this, that in every age, physical Israel consisted of those who were God's people and those who weren't.  The ones who were were called the remnant.  Remember that those who left Egypt, many were idolaters (Ps. ) and/or rebellious (Ps. ) and almost everyone died in the desert.  Paul invokes the remnant terminology in
Rom. 11:1-7
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." 4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

So if you are part of His (Jesus) body, you are part of the remnant of Israel that was chosen by grace.

Did you know that the 2 that survived of the Exodus generation (Joshua and Caleb), were a Hebrew (Jew) and a Gentile? Josh. 14:14 tells us that Caleb was a Kennizite.
Did you know that Jacob adopted two Gentiles into his own family when he blessed Ephraim and Manasseh? (Joseph's wife was a Gentile).  Reading that passage, it states that Ephraim would become a multitude of Gentiles!!  The rabbi's had problems with this passage as in many passages where Gentiles are included without explanation (so the rabbi's labored to explain why God didn't seem to make a distinction between Gentiles and Jews).


Jesus also referred to this-
John 10:16 -
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."

(and NO, he is not talking about the Mormons )
This is the same thing Paul is talking about in Romans 10-
Rom. 11:16-26
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

Note in verse 25 he says that the the Gentiles that come in are part of 'all Israel' - "and so all Israel will be saved".

If they are separate, why does Jesus say they will be one flock?  BEP, this is not a salvation issue (it doesn't make you saved or unsaved), but it is about the nature of our salvation.  I know what I am saying is different than what you are taught, but that doesn't make me wrong and you right, or vice versa.  I think this is what the forum is for, as iron sharpens iron, and we compare our understanding with each other, and with the Scripture text.  I would like to see clear scripture references that state that there are two bodies, and one is Israel, and one is the Church.  Remember, the word church was a term used to refer to Israel (as in Stephen's speech before he was stoned in Acts 7).  In my reading, everywhere that Paul talks about the body, the next thing me uses is an Israelism (in the list in my post to MalkyEL).

I have a book coming from BigD on the subject, so I hope to better understand the position that he is taking, although I don't know if it is the same one you endorse.

Peace and blessings
-oneBook