To MalkyEl RE: New Wine

[Chesed]

Shalom MalkyEl -

1)  New wine in old wineskins has nothing to do with education.  It is about the work of the Holy Spirit [Gal 5, Rom
8, John 3

That may be your interpretation, but the interpretation offered by the author of the article fits the context better, in my humble opinion.

2) New wine are the teachings of Jesus - His Law, the Law of Christ which redefines and clarifies the Law of Moses.

Based on my understanding of the article, you and the author agree on this point.

Not because it is obsolete, but because Isra'el broke the covenant.  Therefore a new law [covenant] was given in
Jesus Christ. Torah was the schoolmaster until Jesus.  Jesus' law was based on, founded in Torah, but was rewritten in the
heart, mind, and soul of the believer - Torah written on the heart - the Law of Love.

3)  The Law [Torah] was fulfilled in Jesus death and resurrection.  Christ is the end of the law [Mosaic Law].  The law is fulfilled in love.  The fruit of the Spirit is the end result of being led by the Spirit = the Law of Christ written on the
heart.

Jer. 31:31-
31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, " I will put My
law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Who is the New Covenant made with? Israel.

Notice in the passage above that the Law of Moses is included in the New Covenant, it is the only Law God could be referring to that He will write on their (our) hearts. The difference between the Old Covenant Law and the New Covenant is that in the New Covenant God promises us that His Law will be kept perfectly, as apposed to the Old Covenant where God predicts Israel's breaking of the Law.

So, who authored the Torah of Moses?
I'm sure you and I both agree that God authored the Torah of Moses. And Jesus being One with God is also considered the
author of the Torah. And in that Torah, God gave Israel guidelines for judging who is a Prophet sent by God:

 "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ' Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 " You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. 5 "But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk."

It doesn't make sense that God would give the Torah to Israel to judge who really is a prophet of God and then send the
Messiah to tell them the Law is changed. And even Jesus says that He did not come to abolish the Torah (Matt. 5:17) and He also says, (Mt 5:19) "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

So, bottom line: Jesus didn't come to abolish or change the Law, He said so Himself. What He did was to show us by example how the Law was meant to be kept. And those who love Jesus will keep His commandments (contained in the Law that He authored):

Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Joh 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

Joh 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
 
The work of the Holy Spirit is to inspire us to keep the Law as it applies to our lives:

Romans 8:4-9 "so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

4)  The old wineskin is Torah.

As I said before, that is your interpretation, but the author of the article makes more sense to me:

Old wine skin = someone already taught Torah as interpreted by the rabbis and sages.

New wine = The Torah as Jesus taught it, which differed from the teachings of the Sages.


**********************************************

Correct me if I am wrong, but Yeshua wrote the Book [Bible]- and He needs the Talmud to define His teachings???

Well, you and I agree that Yeshua wrote the book (see above).

No, He doesn't need the Talmud to define His teachings. However since He is speaking to the Pharisees (mostly), and the Pharisees were studied in the teachings of the Talmud, Yeshua uses the Talmud to teach them and many times chastise them. And to fully understand the context of what Yeshua is saying, I don't think it's wrong to use the Talmud as a reference only.

It would be the same if Yeshua came to English professors who taught Shakesphere. And Yeshua used the writings of Shakesphere to teach them. To fully understand the meaning of Yeshua's teaching, you could turn to the writings of Shakesphere and study the Elizabethan way of speaking, idioms, etc. to determine the context.

I do understand your concern. I know of many people who get caught up in Talmudic teachings and Rabbinic interpretation, that they focus too much on being accepted by the Jewish community rather than being accepted by God. I'm sure you have seen this too and that is why you are cautioning me. But don't worry, you and I agree probably more than you think we do.

PS:  Oral Torah is not the inspired Word of God.

Amen.

Take care,
Chesed

[MalkyEL]

I would like to a refer to an article I found that defines exactly what the Talmud says about Jesus Christ.
 
Quote:
From a Jewish article about Jesus we learn that the Talmud slanders our Savior, Jesus Christ.

"... the Jewish Encyclopœdia admits that Jewish legends concerning Jesus are found in the Talmud and Midrash and in " the life of Jesus ( Toledot Yeshu) that originated in the Middle Ages. It is the tendency of all these sources to belittle the person of Jesus by ascribing to Him illegitimate birth, magic, and a shameful death. " 1.

Upon scrutiny one also finds that Jesus is maligned as a false teacher:

"… He [Jesus] is referred to in the Talmud as Otho Isch- "That man," i.e. the one who is known to all. In the tract Abhodah Zarah, 6a, we read: "He is called a Christian who follows the false teachings of that man, who taught them to celebrate the feast on the first day of the Sabbath, that is, to worship on the first day after Sabbath…Talui, -"The one who was hanged"…" 2.

Many people believe that the name for Jesus in Hebrew is Jeschua or Yeshua. However, the complete,

"…name in Hebrew would be Jeschua Hanotsri--Jesus the Nazarene. He is called Notsri from the city of Nazareth… In the Talmud Christians are also called Notsrim. (Amongst other things). 'Since the word Jeschua means 'Savior,' the name Jesus rarely occurs in the Jewish books. It is almost always abbreviated to Jeschu…"3.

In the Talmud, the name "Jeschu [Ieschu]" can apparently be translated:

"…as if it were composed of the initial letters of the three words Immach SCHemo Vezikro-- (meaning)- -'May his name be blotted out.'" 4.

That translation could only be accomplished by the use of Gematria a tool of Kabbalists. Hebrew Roots proponents might say that these teachings are in the past. However, a review of various sources reveals the same or similar teachings.

The Talmud and Cabala teachings of the Toledot Yeshu-- (or Tolodoth Ieschu or Sepher Toldoth Jehoshua) represent various teachings regarding Christ, which may be shocking to many. A brief overview of these teachings refers to writings that quote the Talmud, (treatise Sabbath, folio 104, treatise Sanhedrim, folio 107, and Sota, folio 47) which presents this falsified account of Jesus:

"...the Toledot Yeshu relates with the most indecent details that Miriam, a hairdresser of Bethlehem,4. affianced to a young man named Jochanan, was seduced by a libertine, Joseph Panther or Pandira, and gave birth to a son whom she named Johosuah or Jeschu. According to the Talmudic authors of the Sota and the Sanhedrim, Jeschu was taken during his boyhood to Egypt, where he was initiated into the secrets doctrines of the priests, and on his return to Palestine gave himself up to the practice of magic. 5. The Toledot Yeshu, however, goes on to say that on reaching manhood, Jeschu learnt the secret of his illegitimacy, on account of which he was driven out of the Synagogue and took refuge for a time in Galilee."

"Now, there was in the Temple a stone on which was engraved the Tetragrammaton [YHWH] or Schem Hamphorasch, that is to say, the Ineffable Name of God; this stone had been found by King David when the foundations of the Temple were being prepared and was deposited by him in the Holy of Holies. Jeschu, knowing this, came from Galilee and, penetrating into the Holy of Holies, read the Ineffable name, which he transcribed on to a piece of whom parchment and concealed in an incision under his skin. By this means he was able to work miracles and to persuade the people that he was the son of God foretold by Isaiah. With the aid of Judas, the Sages of the Synagogue, succeeding in capturing Jeschu, who was then lead before the Great and Little Sanhedrim, by whom he was condemned to be stoned to death and finally hanged." Such is the story of Christ according to the Jewish Kabbalists ..." 5.

This false witness to the person of Jesus in the Talmud is also confirmed by Rev. I. B. Pranaitis in his online report, The Talmud Unmasked: The Secret Rabbinical Teachings Concerning Christians, and other sources" 6.
[end quote]

http://www.seekgod.ca/embrachrist.htm


Shalom, Nana

[Chesed]

MalkyEl -

I don't know very much about the Talmud, I have only read bits and pieces. But I must point that it is not written by one author, there are many contributors to the Talmud texts.  The oral Torah existed in Yeshua's day and the Talmud is the oral Torah codefied. The Talmud was complied after the time of Yeshua, but parts of it reflect the Judaism of His day, the culture, the language, issues and practices. That is why it can be a good historical reference.

Should we accept none of it? Well, the fact of the matter is that Jesus Himself honors the oral tradition of reclining during the Passover meal. What do we do with that? In His teachings, Jesus Himself refers to oral tradition many times. I think this is why many Christian scholars have referenced the Talmud to help them better understand the Scriptures, such as Lightfoot, Justin Martyr, and many others. It just goes to show that some of the Talmud sages might have had good insight into the Scriptures, but it takes one who has the Spirit to apply them.

The Talmud is a mixture of truth and error. That is why we need the Scriptures as a guide for what we accept and what we don't.

I am not saying the Talmud is inspired. I am not saying the Talmud is inspired. I am not saying the Talmud is inspired.

[MalkyEL]

Jesus said that a little leaven works its way through the whole loaf.  You cannot mix truth with error and have the truth.

The inference here, is that Jesus needed a contaminated source to declare His Truth.  Do you really think He would use something that declared Himself to be accursed to teach from?

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one.

Eze 44:23 And they shall teach my people [the difference] between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

2 Cor 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship does righteousness have with lawlessness? And what partnership does light have with darkness?
15 And what agreement does Christ have with Belial? Or what part does a believer have with an unbeliever?
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words, like silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 You shall keep them, O LORD, You shall preserve them from this generation forever.
8 The wicked walk on every side, when vileness is praised by the sons of men.

Note: reclining at meal time was part of the culture.

Note:  just because some early church "fathers" and other commentaters used the Talmud to define the Scriptures, does not make it right.  Justifying a system because others use it does not compute when speaking of the Holiness and Purity of the Word of God.

Note: Jesus' references to tradition are not exactly positive.
 If I remember correctly, He called the pharisees white washed tombs because of their traditions and fencing.

Chesed wrote:
The Talmud is a mixture of truth and error. That is why we need the Scriptures as a guide for what we accept and what we don't.

Nana:
Matt 7:17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.

Shalom, Nana

[Chesed]

MalkyEl -

Jesus said that a little leaven works its way through the whole loaf.

Actually, Paul says this. But you are taking this verse (and other verses) out of context.

The inference here, is that Jesus needed a contaminated source to declare His Truth.

I'm not saying He needed it to declare His truth, I'm just stating that He did use the oral tradition of His day to teach and sometimes chastise the Pharisees. It is a statement of fact. Here is an example:

Matt 15:3 3 He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, "Honor your father and your mother,' and, "Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.' 5 But you say that whoever tells father or mother, "Whatever support you might have had from me is given to God,' then that person need not honor the father. 6 So, for the sake of your tradition, you make void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied rightly about you when he said: 8 "This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; 9 in vain do they worship me, teaching human precepts as doctrines.' "

You see? Here Jesus references their oral tradition to accuse them of hypocrisy and not honoring God's Torah. It shows that Jesus knew what the oral tradition was of His day and He spoke with the authority given to Him by God to teach them the truth.

I'm sure it would be no different if Jesus were to come to us today, and point out the errors in the Church today, he would refer to Church doctrine (of man) that was against God's word.

Do you really think He would use something that declared Himself to be accursed to teach from?

Actually, Jesus refers to oral tradition, which was codefied by the Talmud later. The Talmud didn't exist during the time of Jesus, but the oral tradition that is contained in the Talmud did exist at that time. And the writings in the Talmud calling Jesus cursed certainly didn't exist during Jesus' day and were added much later. Even the article you quoted stated that toldot yeshu was written during the Middle Ages.

Note: Jesus' references to tradition are not exactly positive. If I remember correctly, He called the pharisees white washed tombs because of their traditions and fencing.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. And sometimes Jesus uses very cryptic language in his parables to blast the Pharisees. Sometimes this cryptic language is related to the oral tradition of the day (just as this article, Yeshua's New Wine I posted points out). How are we going to understand Jesus when He symbolically alludes to oral tradition, if we don't know anything about oral tradition?

Note: reclining at meal time was part of the culture.

That may be. In the Ma Nishtana, one of the 4 questions is: "On all other nights, we eat sitting or leaning, But on this night we all lean."

If it was so common to recline at meal time in that culture, why did the Sages feel it was necessary to command that those celebrating the Passover meal to recline?

Shalom,
Chesed

[MalkyEL]

Chesed wrote:
You see? Here Jesus references their oral tradition to accuse them of hypocrisy and not honoring God's Torah. It shows that Jesus knew what the oral tradition was of His day and He spoke with the authority given to Him by God to teach them the truth.

Nana:
Referencing the oral traditions of the Pharisees is different than using them and teaching them, which is what you have implied all along.

I do not believe that Jesus taught the oral traditons - they are not inspired - which is why he taught against them.

Nana Quote:
Jesus said that a little leaven works its way through the whole loaf.  
 
Chesed wrote:
Actually, Paul says this. But you are taking this verse (and other verses) out of context.

Nana:
Yes, I am aware that Paul actually said a little leaven works its way through the whole loaf.  Paul wrote his letters under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit which is Jesus, so he wrote Jesus' words.

Yes, Paul was saying that those who were keeping the law were mixing leaven into the Gospel message, that faith is worked in love.  Gal 5

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake [it] not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

What was the leaven of the Pharisees?  Oral tradition.

Chesed wrote:
In the Ma Nishtana, one of the 4 questions is: "On all other nights, we eat sitting or leaning, But on this night we all lean."

If it was so common to recline at meal time in that culture, why did the Sages feel it was necessary to command that those celebrating the Passover meal to recline?

Nana:
Good question, why would they? - it was not a command of Torah - they added to the Word - I think God has something to say about that  

Shalom, Nana

[oneBook]

Hey MalkyEl,

a few points I would like to add to this thread-

1. There were believing rabbis that existed before Jesus was born whose Scriptural beliefs are recorded in the Talmud.  Believing because one of the major beliefs of the religious Jews of the 1st century was that God would send a savior Messiah per the promises made to Abraham and the fathers in Scripture (who happens to be Jesus).

2. If we were to reject all books that mix truth and error, then I wouldn't be able to read any commentaries.  If we have to reject leadership that has imperfections, then we will have no earthly leadership (though Paul gives us guidelines on how to appoint leaders).  Jesus put off his perfection and put on imperfection order to perfect us.  That means that he became a man, and used the language of man.  Language also is composed of units of thought, or concepts.  The basic concepts of a subject may be inaccurate, but to correct the person in error, you need to be able to discuss the concept and be familiar with it.  Jesus was aware of the oral tradition, and even used it to argue His point about His disciples being able to eat in the field-

Matt. 12:1-5
1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath." 3 But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, 4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? 5 "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?"

Note that while the Scriptures tell us that the priest still perform their duty on the Sabbath, it nowhere states that they break the Sabbath, that was an oral traditional understanding of the text that was generally accepted in Jesus day.  Jesus then used that to demonstrate His point.

Yes, Paul was saying that those who were keeping the law were mixing leaven into the Gospel message, that faith is worked in love.  Gal 5

Actually, here Paul was using leven as a symbol of their erroneous teaching.  When you say they were keeping the law, you must mean oral law since Paul's main point is that they are not keeping the Torah

Gal 5:10
10 I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.

Why would they be judged unless they broke God's law?  They wouldn't.

Also remember it was Paul who said-
Rom. 2:12-16
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

This portion of Romans shows several things,
1. that those condemned are condemned by the law as in my point above.
2. those who are justified do the law (of God).
3. Gentiles who have the law written on their hearts fulfill it's requirements since the Spirit empowers them to do so.

Note in point 2 above, Paul is not saying that they are justified by keeping the law, but that the Spirit causes them to keep the requirements of the law because they love God who spoke the law to his beloved.

Paul also said in Romans 16:25-27

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

The law is not opposed to grace-
"5 Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. "

a command is obviously a law, but it is an expression of love when obeyed in faith. In fact the only acceptable display of love ("to obey is better than sacrifice...", or singing, or meetings, etc.).  

Paul was concerned about the "circumcision group's" policy of teaching new believers that they have to be circumcised to be a part of God's people.  The Torah was not in question, I think this fact can be seen since Paul's letters were not considered Scripture by Paul, or the apostles of his day, but viewed as Godly guidence.  Where does Paul appeal to for support for his arguments?  The Torah, and the Prophets.  If he then turns and says that the Torah is invalid, then all his arguments self destruct (a house divided against itself).  All of Pauls points come from the Law and Prophets, and all the proof of Jesus Messiahship were from the same source.  Can you prove from the Law and the Prophets that Jesus is the Messiah?

Lastly, the Bible even records bad and evil things along with the good since it is a historical record.  Do we throw it out? The Talmud is a historical log of teachings of Jews through the ages, in which is preserved a saying of one of the early followers of Jesus who had a debate with rabbi Eliazer.  It was a great saying, and rabbi Eliazer even liked it (it was about what can be done with money that is gotten by dishonest/immoral means).  Eliazer by the way was ex-communicated later as a heratic, and it may have been because his education in the law had led him to the feet of the Nazarene we call Lord.  I hope so.  So yes, be careful when you read it, but also be careful when you watch movies, read any commontaries, etc.  Any non-biblical source is not inspired, but they can illuminate history for us that gives us a better insight to what was happening around the time it was written.

Without historical context of a text, we are left to our imaginations to fill in the blanks, and I don't think that is what God intended.  I also don't think that we should look at the text with western eyes and assume that we can fully understand the text without delving into some history and language studies as well.  When you read your Bible, someone made those assumptions (or educated guesses) for you, and you are trusting the interpreter to know how things should be translated. So you also are trusting in that persons knowledge of history and language and ancient culture to inform the translation you are reading.  Some of what we have is the result of Talmudic study.

With all that said, I believe that the Gospel is simple enough to understand, but with 1600 years (or so) of time to have some of the teaching obscured, I believe Satan has caused great damage to the body by obscuring God's clear words.  I for one saw the effects in my high school/college group at church growing up.  I was amazed at the spirit of rebellion I saw in so many of the youth who were even involved in leadership.  They lived for the flesh and most of the leaders were blind to it.  The sexual promiscuity of the youth groups was higher than the national secular surveys.  This was troubling indeed, and the response was - God doesn't really want you to do that.  This is a safe place to come worship(sic).  It wasn't a safe place, and it was because they let the kids do whatever in the name of the freedom of the Gospel.  I saw right away that the law was needed, the leader should have said- God said not to do xyz, and then backed it up with scripture, and told them that you can't serve God and have it your own way too.  That is applying God's law.  

I hope you have a peaceful Sabbath,

-oneBook

[MalkyEL]

one book wrote:
With all that said, I believe that the Gospel is simple enough to understand, but with 1600 years (or so) of time to have some of the teaching obscured, I believe Satan has caused great damage to the body by obscuring God's clear words.  

Nana:
So you are saying that God did not preserve His Word as He promised?  or are you saying that the Scriptures are not the inspired and infallible Word of God?

one book wrote:
I for one saw the effects in my high school/college group at church growing up.  I was amazed at the spirit of rebellion I saw in so many of the youth who were even involved in leadership.  They lived for the flesh and most of the leaders were blind to it.  The sexual promiscuity of the youth groups was higher than the national secular surveys.  This was troubling indeed, and the response was - God doesn't really want you to do that.  This is a safe place to come worship(sic).  It wasn't a safe place, and it was because they let the kids do whatever in the name of the freedom of the Gospel.  I saw right away that the law was needed, the leader should have said- God said not to do xyz, and then backed it up with scripture, and told them that you can't serve God and have it your own way too.  That is applying God's law.

Nana:
That is simply an example of having no foundation in the Word of God.  Jesus said, if you continue in My Word, the truth shall set you free.

It is also an example of a loss of contending for the faith.  Christians are often misled into thinking that going to church is all they need to walk a godly path of righteousness.  In fact, it is a discipline - running the race with our eyes fixed on Jesus - casting aside all hinderances.

This is not taught today - the attitude of what can I do and still remain a Christian is predominate.  Secular activities - ie music, movies, lifestyle makes one a friend of the world and not a friend of God.   It is no wonder these kids have no clue what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ, to take up your cross daily and follow Him.

The law does not convict people of sin.  The Holy Spirit convicts.  This is why a Law based life style causes so many to fall away.
 
Shalom, Nana

[oneBook]

Nana wrote:
So you are saying that God did not preserve His Word as He promised?  or are you saying that the Scriptures are not the inspired and infallible Word of God?

oneBook:
Not at all, the text was preserved by the Jews who persisted in their traditions of preserving the Word of God, which God appointed them to do. I would like to say here that when I say Word of God, or God's law, they are the same in my book.

Nana wrote:
That is simply an example of having no foundation in the Word of God.  Jesus said, if you continue in My Word, the truth shall set you free.

oneBook:
yes, exactly, no foundation in the Word of God (the Law of God).  When Jesus talks about His Word, he is talking about His interperatation of the Torah. Where is this in Scripture?

John 14:10
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

Also, Duet. 13 clearly states that "The Prophet" God would send would not lead people from God's Law's as revealed through Moses, but you seem to be saying that Jesus scrapped that law and gave us a new one.  Matthew 5 clearly states that the law wasn't done away with, and goes on to state that the person who keeps the least of the commandments of God (Torah) and teaches others to do the same will be greatest in God's kingdom, and the one who breaks the least of them and teaches others to do the same would be least.
Jesus was one who kept the least and taught them as well, as He is the greatest in the kingdom.
Would you have me break the commandment of wearing fringes, or keeping kosher?

Nana wrote:
It is also an example of a loss of contending for the faith.  Christians are often misled into thinking that going to church is all they need to walk a godly path of righteousness.  In fact, it is a discipline - running the race with our eyes fixed on Jesus - casting aside all hinderances.

This is not taught today - the attitude of what can I do and still remain a Christian is predominate.  Secular activities - ie music, movies, lifestyle makes one a friend of the world and not a friend of God.  It is no wonder these kids have no clue what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ, to take up your cross daily and follow Him.

oneBook:
I agree 100%, however, all those things are taught in the Torah, and setting it aside for a subset called "the Law of Christ" I believe is not bennificial.  If Jesus said the Torah would not pass away till heaven and earth do, then I will believe him, and observe the Torah as He did. The teaching that Jesus put the Torah aside is a tradition of man, and cannot be found in the Bible.  I agree that we are not to be "under the law", but I disagree that that particular phrase had that meaning to Paul.  He was referring to the Rabbinic administration of the Torah, and makes a distinction between that and the Messiah's administration of the Torah (the "under the law" vs. "under God's law" contrast is clear in 1 Cor. 9:19-22).

Nana wrote:
The law does not convict people of sin.  The Holy Spirit convicts.  This is why a Law based life style causes so many to fall away.

oneBook:
You are correct, God's Law doesn't convict people of sin, but we cannot know what sin is without it. The Word (Law) is preached, and the Spirit convicts.

I have never seen a Law based life style cause people to fall away.  If people are keeping the Torah, then they all "love God with all their hearts" per Deut 6:4, and they all "love their neighbor as themselves" per Lev. 19:18.  The Torah also teaches us that we can't obtain these goals apart from faith in God and the working of the Spirit.  I have seen people who fell away because they didn't have faith (or the Spirit).
God gave us His law in His great lovingkindness as He revealed to Moses when He gave us His law:

Ex 34:6
Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;

This was the second attempt of God at giving us His law, and the first time, we broke it right away (the golden calf). The second time, God said to build an ark to put the law into (which also was part of the Tabernacle) and Moses asked God's presence to go with them.  This is a picture of how the spirit enables us to live out the Word, and puts it within us.

I think that most Christians have a negative view of the Torah, I once did as well. Even though I was taught that the first half of God's Word was bondage, I was still interested in learning more of it. As I studied it, I found myself surprised at the fact that in it, we have a great revelation of God's grace, love, and it also teaches that we are saved only by faith.  It proclaims throughout the Torah and prophets that the Messiah would come and die for our sins, and that He would bring the Gentiles (like me) into His kingdom of Israel.

Remember that Paul's scripture was what the Church now calls the Old Testament, and that is what he used as a foundation for all his teaching.  If that was the foundation of Paul's work, and the Old Testament is set aside, then Paul's work falls too.  The epistle of Peter warns that Paul's writing is hard to understand, and apparently it is, because most of the Church today believes that Paul's gospel is different from Jesus', and some believe that they are even contradictory.

Whether or not you like it, you are also keeping Torah as a sign of your faith, the parts of Torah that the Messiah re-iterated.  As a Christian you view it as your duty, and I am glad that you do.  You are living out Messiah's command's, to a large degree, and the Spirit of God has enabled you to do so.

Peace and blessing to you sister.
-oneBook

[MalkyEL]

oneBook wrote:
If Jesus said the Torah would not pass away till heaven and earth do, then I will believe him, and observe the Torah as He did.

Nana:

Matt 5:18 For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the law until all is fulfilled.

I do not believe that Jesus said Torah would be kept until heaven and earth would pass away. He said, heaven and earth would not pass away UNTIL all is fulfilled.  It was fulfilled on the cross.   Jesus said:  It is finished.

oneBook wrote:
I think that most Christians have a negative view of the Torah, I once did as well. Even though I was taught that the first half of God's Word was bondage, I was still interested in learning more of it. As I studied it, I found myself surprised at the fact that in it, we have a great revelation of God's grace, love, and it also teaches that we are saved only by faith.  It proclaims throughout the Torah and prophets that the Messiah would come and die for our sins, and that He would bring the Gentiles (like me) into His kingdom of Israel.

Nana:
I agree with you. This is why Torah is not abolished.  It stands as God's Word forever - it's function is different, however; it is now *established* as pointing to Messiah.  I do not believe that Isra'el knew that Messiah would fulfill Torah.  So we DO need to study it for a good perspective of His Sacrifice.

oneBook wrote:
I have never seen a Law based life style cause people to fall away.  If people are keeping the Torah, then they all "love God with all their hearts" per Deut 6:4 . . .

Nana:
A law based lifestyle is causing many people to deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, and to convert into Rabbinic Judaism.

oneBook wrote:
Remember that Paul's scripture was what the Church now calls the Old Testament, and that is what he used as a foundation for all his teaching.  If that was the foundation of Paul's work, and the Old Testament is set aside, then Paul's work falls too.  The epistle of Peter warns that Paul's writing is hard to understand, and apparently it is, because most of the Church today believes that Paul's gospel is different from Jesus', and some believe that they are even contradictory.

Nana:
I do not see, nor have I ever seen that Paul's teachings are contrary to Jesus'.  In fact, Paul was directly taught by Jesus. This is why Paul's teachings completely confirm what Jesus taught.  

The reason Paul's teachings are hard to understand is because God's Word is pried apart, sliced and diced instead of read as a whole.  The Holy Spirit leads and guides into ALL truth - even Paul's writings.  

Paul wrote to Timothy that ALL Scripture was good for reproof, correction and instruction - he was referring to the NT as well.   Paul quoted the other books in the NT.  And Jesus said in John 17 that the world would believe what He said through the words and writings of the disciples/apostles.

Chesed:
Whether or not you like it, you are also keeping Torah as a sign of your faith, the parts of Torah that the Messiah re-iterated.  As a Christian you view it as your duty, and I am glad that you do.  You are living out Messiah's command's, to a large degree, and the Spirit of God has enabled you to do so.

Nana:
I do not recall saying that Jesus did not teach from Torah.  It was the foundation of His teachings.  Jesus redefined and reinstituted the Law into a Spiritual premise, rather than the works of the flesh.  No one can keep Torah.  No one ever has, no one ever will.

Zech 4:6 Then he answered and spoke to me, saying, This is the Word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.

I do not keep the law, no one can, so it is not a sign of my faith. My faith comes from and is in God [Heb 12:6]  I do not consider myself to be a "christian" as it is coined today - I am a believer in and a follower of Jesus Christ. I don't consider my actions as a duty to God. I consider it a privilege that He allows me and has given me the ability to do His will.

Shalom, Nana

[oneBook]

Nana wrote:
Matt 5:18 For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the law until all is fulfilled.

I do not believe that is what Jesus said. He said, heaven and earth would not pass away UNTIL all is fulfilled.  It was fulfilled on the cross.  Jesus said:  It is finished.

oneBook:
The verse you just quoted says the opposite. It states that until heaven and earth pass away, the Torah will not change, and then it goes on to say that the greatest in God's kingdom will keep the least commandment and teach others to do the same. Besides, not everything in the OT has been fulfilled, and what Jesus finished on the cross was the payment for our souls. It also is the end of Ps. 22 (slight translation difference due to Greek/Hebrew "He has done it" in most Eng. translations), which starts out with the phrase "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" which is what Jesus said earlier on the cross.


Nana:
I agree with you. This is why Torah is not abolished.  It stands as God's Word forever - it's function is different, however; it is now *established* as pointing to Messiah.

oneBook:
It always pointed to Messiah, and all the ceremonies were given so we would be able to learn how God sanctifies us, and the need for attonement.  If we observe them today with the Messiah's teaching by the Spirit, then we learn the same things.

Nana wrote:
  I do believe that Isra'el knew that Messiah would fulfill Torah.  So we DO need to study it for a good perspective of His Sacrifice.

oneBook:
Romans 2:13 - for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

It is also not those who study the Law, but those who are doers.  One who is not fulfilling the law does not have the Spirit, for the Spirit causes them to live out God's rightousness.  That is Paul's point here. Also in

Romans 2:25-29
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?  27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Paul's point is that Gentiles are keeping the Torah, and some Jews are not, and that the Gentiles will be considered as God's people (aka part of Israel) and the Jews who violate it will be considered cut off (uncircumcised). Paul is highlighting his point that circumcision is not required by God's law to be part of Israel.

Nana:
A law based lifestyle is causing many people to deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, and to convert into Rabbinic Judaism.

oneBook wrote:
No, I have known some who have gone that route, and they didn't have faith.  They put themselves "under the law" as Paul puts it, looking to rabbinic authority for their acceptance into the kingdom.  Note Paul's problem was with the rabbinic, man made circumcision ceremony, not found in the Torah.  He still asked us to keep the Passover, and he went to synagogues, as well as offered sacrifieces (Acts 21) to prove that the Torah was still valid, and that the rumors that Paul discarded it was untrue.  Not to mention, Peter would have accused Paul of this in Galations if it had been a problem.  They would have known that Paul did not observe the Torah!!  This makes those whose words we are reading appear false and contradictory, however that is not the case.

Nana:
I do not see, nor have I ever seen that Paul's teachings are contrary to Jesus'.  In fact, Paul was directly taught by Jesus. This is why Paul's teachings completely confirm what Jesus taught.  

oneBook:
I agree they are not, but if you look on the "Satanic Holy Days" thread, BigD is saying that Jesus gospel included the law, and Paul's didn't (2 gospels).  This view is I believe the majority view in Evangelical Christianity (of which I am a minority).

Nana wrote:
The reason Paul's teachings are hard to understand is because God's Word is pried apart, sliced and diced instead of read as a whole.  The Holy Spirit leads and guides into ALL truth - even Paul's writings.  

oneBook:
I agree, but I would say that teaching to disregard God's law is what does this, as well as dispensationalism (I don't know where you stand on that subject), and that is where this tradition of Jesus doing away with God's law by fulfilling it so we don't have to obey God's Word any more, or we don't have to obey God's Word that Jesus didn't repeat.

Nana wrote:
Paul wrote to Timothy that ALL Scripture was good for reproof, correction and instruction - he was referring to the NT as well.  

oneBook:
the NT didn't exist at this time.  It was compiled around 200 CE with some councils (Nicea and others). Some of the letters existed and were given weight based on the authority of the author, but they were not referred to as cannon, the Greek word translated Scriptures just means writtings, so it could be used to refer to letters etc. where in some contexts, it means the Scriptures.

Nana wrote:
Paul quoted the other books in the NT.  And Jesus said in John 17 that the world would believe what He said through the words and writings of the disciples/apostles.

oneBook:
show me one place where Paul quotes from the NT?
Yes, Jesus knew they would write down the testemony, and they would come to be considered canon, but they weren't at that time.  It was done by word of mouth mostly at first, and was later written down.

BTW, I am not Chesed.


Nana:
I do not recall saying that Jesus did not teach from Torah.  It was the foundation of His teachings.  Jesus redefined and reinstituted the Law into a Spiritual premise, rather than the works of the flesh.  No one can keep Torah.  No one ever has, no one ever will.

oneBook:
yes, we can keep Torah although not perfectly.  The Torah however doesn't expect those who keep it in faith to be perfect which is why the sacrifices were given as a tool to teach Israel (God's people) that there had to be a payment for sin, and the mikvah (baptism) to wash away uncleaness, and the water for the baptism had to be from a natural source (to signify that it was from God). Besides, if you say that God's law is not possible to keep, then you inadvertantly call God a liar for it is written-

Deuteronomy 30:11-14
"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.  12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, ' Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.


Nana quoted:
Zech 4:6 Then he answered and spoke to me, saying, This is the Word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.

oneBook:
This verse you quoted in context was referring to the physical re-building of the Temple. God was saying the Temple will be rebuilt physically by His Spirit.  Not that the Temple would be an invisible "spiritual" temple.  God's Torah is spiritual, holy, and good.  He enables us to keep it as He designed it to be kept.

Nana wrote:
I do not keep the law, no one can, so it is not a sign of my faith. My faith comes from and is in God [Heb 12:6]  I do not consider myself to be a "christian" as it is coined today - I am a believer in and a follower of Jesus Christ. I don't consider my actions as a duty to God. I consider it a privilege that He allows me and has given me the ability to do His will.

oneBook:
His will is the Torah, and if you obey anything Jesus said to do, then you obey His Torah.  You might not follow all of it, but you do some of it.  As far as not being able to, God said you can, Jesus said you can, and Paul said you can
Romans 10:6-8
 6 and the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, `WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),  7 or `WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS ?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching.

Paul's point is that the Messiah is the expounder of the Torah.  The Messiah became the authority on interpreting the Torah, but he never dismissed the physical aspect in favor of a spiritual principle.  That was platonic thought that was projected onto the Scriptures by the early Greek christians that were young in the faith but well studied in Greek liturature (myths and philosophy).

Jesus tells us that we should consider it our duty-
Luke 17:10
"So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, `We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.' "

So you can read my background in the "satanic holy days" thread (also in the debate forum) on my last post to BigD, what is your background?

Shalom u'vrecha
-oneBook

[MalkyEL]

Nana:
Apologies, oneBook, for referring to you as chesed - chalk it up to a blonde moment, senior slide, or just plain old preoccupation  

oneBook wrote:
It also is the end of Ps. 22 (slight translation difference due to Greek/Hebrew "He has done it" in most Eng. translations), which starts out with the phrase "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" which is what Jesus said earlier on the cross.

Nana:
Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

It is finished - greek  strong's #5056 teleo
1) to bring to a close, to finish, to end

a) passed, finished

2) to perform, execute, complete, fulfil, (so that the thing done corresponds to what has been said, the order, command etc.)

a) with special reference to the subject matter, to carry out the contents of a command

b) with reference also to the form, to do just as commanded, and generally involving the notion of time, to perform the last act which completes a process, to accomplish, fulfil

3) to pay

a) of tribute
++++
"It is finished or paid" John 19:30
Christ satisfied God's justice by dying for all to pay for the sins of the elect. These sins can never be punished again since that would violate God's justice. Sins can only be punished once, either by a substitute or by yourself.

oneBook wrote:

Paul's point is that Gentiles are keeping the Torah, and some Jews are not, and that the Gentiles will be considered as God's people (aka part of Israel) and the Jews who violate it will be considered cut off (uncircumcised). Paul is highlighting his point that circumcision is not required by God's law to be part of Israel.


Nana:

Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the hearts, bore them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit even as to us.
9 And He put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why do you tempt God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples, a yoke which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
24 Because we have heard that certain ones who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, Be circumcised and keep the law! (to whom we gave no such command);


oneBook wrote:

He still asked us to keep the Passover, and he went to synagogues, as well as offered sacrifieces (Acts 21) to prove that the Torah was still valid, and that the rumors that Paul discarded it was untrue.

Nana:

That portion of Scripture does not say that Paul offered sacrifices.

oneBook wrote:
I agree, but I would say that teaching to disregard God's law is what does this, as well as dispensationalism (I don't know where you stand on that subject), and that is where this tradition of Jesus doing away with God's law by fulfilling it so we don't have to obey God's Word any more, or we don't have to obey God's Word that Jesus didn't repeat.

Nana:
You are missing the point.  Jesus did not say to obey Torah.  He said, a NEW commandment I give - if it was recorded in Torah, why did He call it new?  I do not recall saying we don't have to obey God's Word. You are imposing Torah on every instance that "law" is used in the NT - contextually the word "law' refers to Jesus teaching on love. His commandment of love.  


oneBook wrote:

show me one place where Paul quotes from the NT?
Yes, Jesus knew they would write down the testemony, and they would come to be considered canon, but they weren't at that time.  It was done by word of mouth mostly at first, and was later written

Nana:
Paul quotes Luke 10:7

1 Ti 5:18 ***For the scripture saith***, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward

oneBook wrote:
yes, we can keep Torah although not perfectly.

Nana:
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

one Book wrote:
Jesus said you can, and Paul said you can

Romans 10:6-8
6 and the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, `WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),  7 or `WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS ?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching.

Nana:
That scripture is in reference/context of salvation.

oneBook wrote:
what is your background?

Nana:  
former calvinist, former charismatic/word of faith/full gospel/pentecostal, former messianic, - in that order I am no longer affiliated with any religion or denomination.  I serve Jesus Christ