IF A CHRISTIAN TEEN WHO COMMITES SUICIDE

[SavedByGrace02]

Really does that, then will they still go to heaven? This is something that I got into a passionate debate w/ a good friend of mine from church.

Here is where I stand in this: I believe that suicide is a sin that cannot be repented of because of the lack of time that person has to repent off of it.

[red letters]

God's salvation is eternal.  Once you are saved, that never changes.  And you will be going to heaven no matter what sin you commit.

[Pixie]

Yes it is true. Suicide is a sin. HOWEVER, there is only one sin that is unforgivable, and suicide isn't unforgivable. Just because a person's heart is in the right place, dosn't mean their mind is. So how can you really be held accountable for something that you do when you are not in the right frame of mind?

[Luke O]

what if the person kills themselves by accient .....it still a sin?

[2nd Timothy]

Tough question.

I would question a persons heart being in the right place if they commited suicide.   Judas is a good example of this.  He was one of the twelve who scattered and went astray when Christ was taken by the Roman soldiers, yet the others were restored.  Judas commited suicide and was not.  Judas commited suicide, so was he really a follower from the beginning or not?  I think he was not.   But I still question how one living at peace with God could even consider suicide.  Just doesn't add up to Christian Hope and happiness.

Grace and Peace!

[ChristNcharge]

SavedByGrace02, red letters, Pixie, Luke O, and 2nd Timothy, and all our brothers and sisters...

     What an excellent issue for debate!  I’d like to add my two cents here, I’ll try to be brief, but still attempt make a relevant contribution to the discussion.
     SavedByGrace02, your position is the position accepted by the majority of Christian denominations and with minimal effort, a person will more than likely find that this position was agreed upon throughout most of Salvation history.  
     That is not to say that this is the only position that is valid and worth consideration… and more importantly, there are other positions that can be presented well in light of Scripture.
     My denominational roots are widespread and my point of view is reflected in my upbringing.  My Mother was a Presbyterian; my Father was both a Southern Baptist and a Pentecostal.  As a young man, I was mostly taught and I have believed in the “Once Saved, Always Saved,” rule to salvation.  Almost all Presbyterians and Baptists generally believe in this theosophy (or at least are taught to), but this is not true within the Pentecostal community.  “Once saved, always saved,” was introduced (largely) to Christianity by John Calvin and his contemporaries – I recommend you read Calvin’s Institutes for an impressive and extremely thoughtful point of view on the Christian Church from this early reformer and leader of a great deal of modern-day Christian thought.
     The classic interpretation of 1John 5:16 is about repentance and asking God for forgiveness for a sin that will not “lead to death.”  In this passage, many believe that John is writing to Christians (so logic would dictate that they have already been saved) and teaching them the difference between sin that does not lead to death (eternal death, or damnation to Hell) and sin that does lead to eternal death.  He is not explicit, in fact the entire New Testament does not specifically give us a list of sins that would fall into the category of “sins that lead to death.”  Some people believe that unabashed breaking of what are universally held to be sins of a “grave” nature can cause us to loose our salvation if we do not regret and pray for forgiveness at His mercy.  Murder is a good example – some view this as a grave sin because it is taking a life… that does not belong to you.  All human life (all life in fact) belongs to God; therefore we have no right to take life from His children, we cannot make that decision for him – “Though Shall Not Kill.”  Intentionally taking ones OWN life would fall into the same category, it would be a rejection of the Truth that our lives belong to God… it is a vain notion indeed to believe that we do not belong to God – that we love and can claim ownership of our souls more so than God.  He loves us more than we could possibly ever love ourselves.  “God is love.” (Underline added)
     Of course, many view Mathew 12:32 as an example of the only unforgivable sin – “blasphemy” against the Holy Spirit.  Try reading and reflecting on this passage as our Lord Jesus Himself tells us that there IS a sin that will not be forgiven “in this age or the age to come.”  Does this passage imply that this is the only sin that will not be forgiven?
     In truth, your individual belief on this issue may depend a lot on different things: what school of thought you belong to for the “once saved always saved” doctrine, what church you belong to, what church you were raised in, or what your family and people close to you believe.  This issue is not a clear-cut case of reading Scripture for a definite answer, if it was… there would be no debate on this issue!
     The following (mainstream) Christian denominations (in alphabetical order) hold to the belief that salvation can be lost through grievous sin if forgiveness for that sin is not sought out:  Anglicans, Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, all Orthodox Christians, and Pentecostals.  There are many other smaller denominations that hold to this understanding as well.  Presbyterians, Baptists, and those many denominations that have been influenced by these two large Christian denominations – reject the idea of different levels of the nature and seriousness of any sin.
     For an answer, for any person, I believe we must turn to His Word… and listen with an open heart to what the Holy Spirit whispers to our quiet mind.  Truth is not subjective… no matter what we, as individuals, believe - Truth is Truth.  We are always free (and always have been free) to believe whatever we wish… but believing strongly in something does not make that thing “true.”  The answer is in God.  

     Pray my brothers and sisters, pray for an answer… and most importantly, pray for the people who are so troubled in this life – that they wish to end their precious, precious lives - before the time and circumstances that God wills.

May the Peace of Christ be with you.

Jaime
   

[2nd Timothy]

I have always taken Blaspheming the Holy Spirit/unforgivable sin to mean rejecting His lead to Christ.   The Holy Spirit is who leads a mans heart to the Lord, to reject this is to reject salvation, and can not be forgiven as Christ is the only way to the father.  Which I believe is what you were saying Jamie.

Having said that, I would again ask why a believer would even contemplate suicide if He were a child of God.  To have Christ is to have life, Hope, Joy, Peace!   Not emptiness, hopelessness, depression.  Which I believe is what basically leads to most cases of suicide.   Suicide being final, how can one ask for forgiveness of sins, after it has been payed for with their own blood?

Grace and Peace!

[ChristNcharge]

My brother Tim (and all my brothers and sisters),
     I absolutely agree with your take on “blasphemy” – though I do not necessarily think that is the only message that can be taken from Christ’s Words.  I have read a very logical interpretation of 1John 5:16 that equated blasphemy with verbally renouncing your belief in God (not necessarily out loud – but at least directed to Him.)  If we proclaimed with all our hearts that we no longer believed in Him and that we reject everything not of this world… that is a very hard example of sin that is not too difficult to understand.  And what a serious thing to do!  This same argument showed how some actions we could choose to make would, in effect, be the same thing as “verbally renouncing” God and severing our ties with our Covenant Family.  Is this not what Judas Iscariot (to borrow from your example Brother Timothy) did with his betrayal?  That he was damned for eternity is certain – but was he damned ONLY for his betrayal - or for taking his own life?  Or could BOTH acts have been acts of blasphemy – sin grave enough to cause him to lose his eternal life?  I think that thought is interesting to say the least.
     The second part of your reply is a very good question.  Who could reject this precious gift of life - if they were a believer?  I submit to you my opinion... my opinion only.  A person can be a believer and not have a strong relationship with God at times.  Too often we get caught up in the world around us and can forget to work on our relationship with God, forget to include Him in our daily thoughts/prayers/activities.  Christians can indeed experience depression, whether it is brought on by spiritual weakness and misunderstanding, or by worldly matters – it can be severe either way.  Martin Luther was a good example of an extra-Biblical figure in Salvation history, a very troubled man, he often wrote through great periods of intense spiritual and emotional depression… but most people have little doubt that he was a believer.  How about from the OT?  Job was another good example, how many times did he cry out for God to acknowledge him?  To give him a sign?  Yet he remained faithful and continued – ultimately believing that He would.  A person that contemplates suicide doesn’t necessarily renounce their belief and faith in Christ – they are just more caught up on someone else… themselves.  It’s very difficult, when you are experiencing great pain… to listen to someone telling you – “It could be worse!” – even if they are humbly trying to remind you of the Passion of Jesus Christ (the “Passion” was NOT a term Mel Gibson coined, by the way, my brothers and sisters!) or just the suffering of other people in the world today.  It’s very hard to see past our own pain.  Although being caught up with our own pain (and having suicidal thoughts) is selfish by it’s nature, it does not mean that we reject God… it DOES indicate that our relationship with him is weak.  I highly recommend the book The Dark Night of the Soul – written in the mid to late 16th century by St. John of the Cross.  Many Christians have felt something similar in their spiritual lives; in fact… most of us DO experience our own “dark night of the soul.”  Some may experience this spiritual “drought” more than once during their journey in this life.  
     The answer, of course, is to take that “right” turn… that turn away from self and society… to God.  
     Maybe you (my brothers and sisters) have never felt so lonely, so hurt, that you just want it to end – and you can’t see beyond that.  Maybe you HAVE… but this feeling has not returned since you were “saved.”  No matter whether or not we can relate, or how closely we THINK we can relate – to believe that a person suffering (with thoughts of suicide) has no faith - is unfair.  They may very well HAVE faith!  It simply may not be burning within them the same way that it once did… but they may still have faith.  And THAT is what they need to be reminded of.  

     I ask that you all pray for the many people suffering throughout the world, as I will.  I will pray for us all.

May the Peace of Christ be with you.

Jaime

[Talmadge]

To me it is very simple, you have just killed the body that the Hole Spirt lived in. Once a person  commits this sin, he can not ask forgiveness, but I am Baptist also, so I do believe that person will go on to heaven. I have a baby brother that has been a Baptist pastor for 32 years and has his docorate and he has explained to me about the three different levels of heaven. Look it up.It is in the Bible , just at the moment, I can not remeber the location. I will try and find the scriptures and post more on this tomorrow.

[Aiden]

Talmadge,
Be careful when talking of heave having multiple levels. It has a tendency to encourage hierarchial views. I would like to see the verses however, but I fear that they may have been taken out of context. Nevertheless, I look forward to checking the verses.

-Aiden-

[SavedByGrace02]

SavedByGrace02, red letters, Pixie, Luke O, and 2nd Timothy, and all our brothers and sisters...

     What an excellent issue for debate!  I’d like to add my two cents here, I’ll try to be brief, but still attempt make a relevant contribution to the discussion.
     SavedByGrace02, your position is the position accepted by the majority of Christian denominations and with minimal effort, a person will more than likely find that this position was agreed upon throughout most of Salvation history.  
     That is not to say that this is the only position that is valid and worth consideration… and more importantly, there are other positions that can be presented well in light of Scripture.
     My denominational roots are widespread and my point of view is reflected in my upbringing.  My Mother was a Presbyterian; my Father was both a Southern Baptist and a Pentecostal.  As a young man, I was mostly taught and I have believed in the “Once Saved, Always Saved,” rule to salvation.  Almost all Presbyterians and Baptists generally believe in this theosophy (or at least are taught to), but this is not true within the Pentecostal community.  “Once saved, always saved,” was introduced (largely) to Christianity by John Calvin and his contemporaries – I recommend you read Calvin’s Institutes for an impressive and extremely thoughtful point of view on the Christian Church from this early reformer and leader of a great deal of modern-day Christian thought.
     The classic interpretation of 1John 5:16 is about repentance and asking God for forgiveness for a sin that will not “lead to death.”  In this passage, many believe that John is writing to Christians (so logic would dictate that they have already been saved) and teaching them the difference between sin that does not lead to death (eternal death, or damnation to Hell) and sin that does lead to eternal death.  He is not explicit, in fact the entire New Testament does not specifically give us a list of sins that would fall into the category of “sins that lead to death.”  Some people believe that unabashed breaking of what are universally held to be sins of a “grave” nature can cause us to loose our salvation if we do not regret and pray for forgiveness at His mercy.  Murder is a good example – some view this as a grave sin because it is taking a life… that does not belong to you.  All human life (all life in fact) belongs to God; therefore we have no right to take life from His children, we cannot make that decision for him – “Though Shall Not Kill.”  Intentionally taking ones OWN life would fall into the same category, it would be a rejection of the Truth that our lives belong to God… it is a vain notion indeed to believe that we do not belong to God – that we love and can claim ownership of our souls more so than God.  He loves us more than we could possibly ever love ourselves.  “God is love.” (Underline added)
     Of course, many view Mathew 12:32 as an example of the only unforgivable sin – “blasphemy” against the Holy Spirit.  Try reading and reflecting on this passage as our Lord Jesus Himself tells us that there IS a sin that will not be forgiven “in this age or the age to come.”  Does this passage imply that this is the only sin that will not be forgiven?
     In truth, your individual belief on this issue may depend a lot on different things: what school of thought you belong to for the “once saved always saved” doctrine, what church you belong to, what church you were raised in, or what your family and people close to you believe.  This issue is not a clear-cut case of reading Scripture for a definite answer, if it was… there would be no debate on this issue!
     The following (mainstream) Christian denominations (in alphabetical order) hold to the belief that salvation can be lost through grievous sin if forgiveness for that sin is not sought out:  Anglicans, Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, all Orthodox Christians, and Pentecostals.  There are many other smaller denominations that hold to this understanding as well.  Presbyterians, Baptists, and those many denominations that have been influenced by these two large Christian denominations – reject the idea of different levels of the nature and seriousness of any sin.
     For an answer, for any person, I believe we must turn to His Word… and listen with an open heart to what the Holy Spirit whispers to our quiet mind.  Truth is not subjective… no matter what we, as individuals, believe - Truth is Truth.  We are always free (and always have been free) to believe whatever we wish… but believing strongly in something does not make that thing “true.”  The answer is in God.  

     Pray my brothers and sisters, pray for an answer… and most importantly, pray for the people who are so troubled in this life – that they wish to end their precious, precious lives - before the time and circumstances that God wills.

May the Peace of Christ be with you.

Jaime
   

That is a lot of stuff you put there, that punched me (not in a bad way though.) Thank you so much for your answer on this, WOW!! thats deep right there, i enjoyed reading it and im gonna make sure that i copy and paste this because i not only want to look at the verses but also be able to meditate on them myself and see what i can dig out of it. Its sad to know that suicide happens more often in Christian families. at least thats what i hear.

[Brother Love]

God's salvation is eternal.  Once you are saved, that never changes.  And you will be going to heaven no matter what sin you commit.

"TWO" Thumbs UP, AMEN!!!



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