Help!! I'm stumped: Free will and hardening of hearts.

[NorwegianLad]

Hello,
I'm debating on an atheist forum (and man, that place is nasty) about the problem of evil. I'm currently stumped. The question was "Why did God allow evil to happen?"

I said something along the lines of: "God allowed Adam to exercise his free will by eating the fruit. God doesn't make people as automatons that follow His orders. If God prevented evil, He would have interfered with free will.  Adam, by his own choice, ate the fruit and brought sin into the world."

Someone on the forum said had this reply in some form or another: "If you say that God does respect our free will, doesn't that contradict the Bible? God hardened people's hearts in the Bible. Thus, He can and does control people; He does not care about our free will. If God hardened Pharoh's heart to free Israel, for example, then why didn't He harden Adam's heart to not eat the fruit?

This is not to mention the fact that because at least some people don't have free will (like Pharoh), the people that go to hell are sent there by God. Cruel, mean ol' God forced Pharoh into damnation."


Was I wrong with what I said about God and free will?

If you argue that "hardening a heart" is not actually "controlling," please explain this. How do I replay to the question "If controlled Pharoh to free Israel, for example, then why didn't He control Adam and not have him eat the fruit?"

Realize that I'm not going through "losing my faith and I need answers" syndrome. I'm a Christian no matter what. But I do not know how to respond to this at all. What did I say that was wrong? How do I defend God's heart hardedning, free will, and the fall? I realize that there is alot to answer here, but I need the help. Thank you VERY much in advance.  

[Shylynne]

“As for God, His way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: He is a buckler to all them that trust in Him” (II Samuel 22:31).

This is the 30th verse (out of 50) in David’s great “song of deliverance,” evidently considered by God to be of sufficient importance to have it included twice (II Samuel 22 and Psalm 18) in His written word. Its testimony is greatly needed.

One of the most common excuses given by men for rejecting the God of the Bible is their opinion that His ways are unfair. Even Christians are prone to complain at the way God deals with them. But the fact that we may not understand God’s ways hardly gives us the right to pass judgment on them. He often reminds us in His word that His way is perfect and His word has been tried and proved, again and again. “For the word of the LORD is right; and all His works are done in truth” (Psalm 33:4). “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul” (Psalm 19:7).

 God’s ways are always perfect. What He does is right, and whatever He says must be true by definition. His ways are always in the context of eternity, but we leap to judgment in terms of present inconvenience.

His perfect way is seen most fully in Christ, and His truth is heard most clearly in Christ, for “I am the way,” He said, and I am “the truth” (John 14:6). Yet Christ’s way was through the cross, and His truth was opposed by the father of lies (John 8:44).

and...

“Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God” (I Corinthians 2:12).

How is it that some people can read a Biblical passage and find it either tedious, confusing, or even foolish, whereas others will receive great understanding and blessing from the very same passage? The answer is that the first group are animated only by the spirit of the world “the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience” (Ephesians 2:2), whereas the others are indwelt by the Spirit of God, having received the Holy Spirit when they trusted Christ for forgiveness and salvation.

It was, after all, the Holy Spirit who inspired the Scriptures to begin with. “Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (II Peter 1:21). “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” (II Timothy 3:16) that is, “God-breathed,” where the “breath of God” is none other than the “Spirit of God.” Concerning his own divinely inspired writings, Paul said: “We speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth” (I Corinthians 2:13).

Likewise it is the same Spirit indwelling each believer who illumines, and confirms, and applies His own Scriptures to the individual Christian who reads or hears them. “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (I Corinthians 2:14). On the other hand, Jesus promised His disciples that “when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13).


http://www.icr.org/pubs/dop/dp0205.htm

[2nd Timothy]

Hello,
I'm debating on an atheist forum (and man, that place is nasty) about the problem of evil. I'm currently stumped. The question was "Why did God allow evil to happen?"

I said something along the lines of: "God allowed Adam to exercise his free will by eating the fruit. God doesn't make people as automatons that follow His orders. If God prevented evil, He would have interfered with free will.  Adam, by his own choice, ate the fruit and brought sin into the world."

Someone on the forum said had this reply in some form or another: "If you say that God does respect our free will, doesn't that contradict the Bible? God hardened people's hearts in the Bible. Thus, He can and does control people; He does not care about our free will. If God hardened Pharoh's heart to free Israel, for example, then why didn't He harden Adam's heart to not eat the fruit?

This is not to mention the fact that because at least some people don't have free will (like Pharoh), the people that go to hell are sent there by God. Cruel, mean ol' God forced Pharoh into damnation."


Was I wrong with what I said about God and free will?

If you argue that "hardening a heart" is not actually "controlling," please explain this. How do I replay to the question "If controlled Pharoh to free Israel, for example, then why didn't He control Adam and not have him eat the fruit?"

Realize that I'm not going through "losing my faith and I need answers" syndrome. I'm a Christian no matter what. But I do not know how to respond to this at all. What did I say that was wrong? How do I defend God's heart hardedning, free will, and the fall? I realize that there is alot to answer here, but I need the help. Thank you VERY much in advance.  

Hi NorwegianLad.   Welcome to CU!

I'm not sure you will convince this individual of this, but when it says that God hardened Pharoahs heart, does not mean that God infused unbelief in him....it simply means that God showed proof of His wonder to Pharoah (Moses snake eating Pharoahs two snakes, all the plagues etc) and Pharoahs heart become harndened because he refused the truth!  Not because God made him refuse it.  Understand?

Exo 9:34  And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
Exo 9:35  And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.

While the argument can be made that God himself caused Pharoah to sin, we know that cannot be the case....God is not capable of SIN.   The truth is that the HE in verse 34 above is Pharoah himself.   When Pharoah asked for signs, he was not really seeking truth that Moses' God was a great God, he didn't believe it period and didn't expect miracles.   But when he saw them, (the truth demonstrated) his heart became hard because of his mind was made up from the start.   God will turn people over to their unbelief when they continually refuse Gods grace and truth over time.  Their hearts harden because of their own unbelief to accept God.  Not because God causes them to sin.  

Almost, like the fellow you are debating with.  Is he really seeking truth, or is he blind because he doesn't want to accept what scripture plainly says?   God has not caused his blindness, his own lack of faith prevents him from seeing truth.    God did not force Adam to sin either.  He simply gave Adam free will so that he could choose whether to serve God or himself.  Adam chose to believe that God had kept some truth from him, some knowledge of good and evil, inspite of all the greatness around him in the garden.   So lacking faith (that God had provided all for him) he chose to test God by disobediance and see for himself, thus falling into sin for his lack of faith in believing all that God had said.

Make sense?  Without free will, Man would indeed be forced by God to do Gods will.  With free will, we can choose to freely accept God's truth which is plainly visible to us in the wonder of his creation, by faith alone! that God has provided a way for us to be free from our sin, through HIM.  By continaully refusing this truth when it is made known to man, his heart will become hardened, because of his OWN unbelief, much the same way Pharoahs heart became hardened.

Not sure this will help you with your debate, but thats the easiest way to explain it.    If God truly wanted to control man, we would all be serving him already wouldn't we?   So his argument begins to fall apart right there.  Throwing free will into the mix, allows those truely seeking truth to see it and accept it by faith.  Those not interested in truth MUST harden their own hearts in order to deny it when its staring them in the face without excuse.   The only way you deny truth, when you KNOW its truth is to harden your heart.

Grace and Peace!

[Allinall]

Welcome to CU!  I think Tim pretty much hit it on the head here, but I'd like to add a thought or two.  

God hardened Pharoah's heart, not by making the decision for him, but by forcing him to make the decision in the first place.  God said, "Let My people go!"  Pharoah said "No" but had no reason to really have to decide.  In other words, it wasn't a hard decision...until God began showing Pharoah Who was Lord God.  It's interesting.  Each of the plagues took a direct stab at the heart of Egyptian theology.  If their gods controlled these areas...what did it say when the God took control from them?  You see, Pharoah wasn't just forced to make a decision about the Israelites.  He was forced to make a decision about whether or not he believed, and believed in God.  God didn't decide for him.  He just made him decide.  Pharoah's heart was already against God, God just made him chose to harden it more when faced with the reality of God.

But I'll also add this food for thought.  We get pretty caught up in our own "free will."  I think it's best to remember that we are only as free as God allows us to be.  He allows us to chose to obey sometimes, as well as to disobey.  But not always.  Remember Abimelech?  God told him that He didn't allow him to sin against God.  Not much freedom there.  David asked God to keep him from his own presumptuous sins in the Psalms.  Not much free willing goin' on there either.  We must remember that we are a part of His eternal plan, that He works with, or without our cooperation.  In the end, He sovereignly takes both our obedience and our disobedience and works through that to conform us into the image of His Son, all the while teaching us the blessings of obedience.  But it's still His plan and His working of that plan.

Sometimes we vessels need to remember Who's the Boss.  

Hope this helps, and welcome again!

[2nd Timothy]

Amen brother....I think you put that better than I did...and with fewer words.  

Grace and Peace!

[Kristi Ann]

hej hej NorwegianLad!!

Welcome to Christian's Unite!!

I am Nørwegianlass here,  ja ja really!!

I will Pray for you!!

Blessings,  \o/

KristiAnn

[Allinall]

Amen brother....I think you put that better than I did...and with fewer words.  

Grace and Peace!

No, I think I used more words...  Great post Brother!

[Precious Pearl]

NorvegianLad, what is the address of that atheist forum?

[2nd Timothy]

NorvegianLad, what is the address of that atheist forum?

Odd request for a first post.

Grace and Peace!