Should we seek to know God ...

[smartinez1984]

... outside of the Bible? This question was born out of my lack of experience in "hearing" God's voice as others in our congregation appear to do on a daily basis.

I was having a conversation a couple of nights ago with another church member who is mostly responsible for identifying and selecting "speakers" for our church. A couple of the folks who've been allowed to speak or preach didn't seem qualified (in my eyes) to do so. I say that because of blatant errors in reading and therefore interpreting scripture, nervous to the point they couldn't speak, and one actually changed his mind and walked away from the pulpit because he was so nervous. So I asked this church member why these people were selected.

Here's an excerpt from that actual conversation:

Me: What qualifies this individual to speak? How did you decide to select them?
Them: I was led by the Spirit to select them.
Me: Oh...

I left it at that, not wanting engage in a discussion at the time.

So, it would seem to me that Scripture would be the ultimate source of reference for deciding these types of things. This conversation opened my eyes to something; I noticed that this type of spirituality is fairly prevalent in our church where many folks are saying things like "I felt", "God told me", "the Spirit led me", "I was directed by God to", etc. Yet, on most occasions, these "commandments" totally contradict what scripture may say about the topic.

It seems that being driven by anything other than scripture leaves one open to false feelings, emotions, and thoughts.

So, back to the original question: Am I way off base? Should we be seeking God's direction, Words, promises, etc. outside of scripture?

I hope I made sense...

God Bless,

Samson
(yep, been away a while...)

[Evangelist]

Hi Samson:

No, you're not off base....sounds like they are, tho.

God can, and does speak to us, but what He says (since the Holy Spirit ONLY repeats what He hears from the Father and Son) will ALWAYS be in line with, and verifiable by the written Word that we have.  The actual words may differ, but the idea and principle(s) are there, and cannot contradict each other.

Emotions and "feelings" seem to be a hallmark of the third wave movement (Toronto, Pensacola), with everything judged experientially.

Bad move.

[smartinez1984]

Thanks! I just wish I had enough of a scriptural foundation to engage in an adult, peaceful conversation on this issue with these folks.

Any good articles, books, etc. that you can recommend on this topic?

God Bless,

-Samson

[grace]

Greetings Smartinez,

I, for one, believe that God will reveal Himself to us in any way He pleases, and that He does not restrict Himself to revealing Himself to us by Scripture.

HOWEVER...

While sometimes people do experience the whisperings of our Lord, very often (in some circles, almost always) what they are experiencing is their whim and fancy, or maybe even the whisperings of the enemy, in some cases. There is also always the possibility that they are using testimonies of experiences that they have not had for coercive purposes. Or because they're afraid of what their fellow Christians will think of them if they found out that they weren't experiencing anything (what sadness, fear and isolation to be experiencing within a Christian community!).

I would venture to say that if the person cannot engage in adult, peaceful conversation about it, it is far more likely that it is not the whisperings of our Lord, but one of the other possibilities that I have mentioned above. Be graciously skeptical.

As goes one saying that I have read, "To be ignorant of Scripture is to be ignorant of Jesus". The Holy Bible contains the whole Word of God, but the problem is that we need help with that sometimes, as the mind-boggling number of interpretations of the bible testify. It can and has been read: like a Boy Scout manual of rules, directions and instructions; as a history book; as the intimate, passionate words of a Holy and all-powerful God, saying I Love You! in every way that it can be said; as the repeatedly self-contradicting diatribe of a bunch of weak, deluded and mislead wackos; as the threat, stated in many ways, of how a distant and wrathful God will punish those who don't tow the line; etc., etc., and in every permutation and combination. There is more to being a Christian than reading the bible; there is an experiential element too. But all within the context of the Word, of Scripture!

So if your experience doesn't jive with scripture, it is probably not of God. Another question to ask is, are others recieving the same message? We are meant to live in community with each other, as all of the "one another"s in scripture testify, and our experiences of God are also within the context of that community. If God tells me something, me alone and to no-one else, I would proceed with caution, if at all (depending on the circumstances). And I also bounce such things off members of my Christian community; if they have a sense that this is not from God, I am skeptical of my "insight", because I trust their discernment. I also trust them enough that Iknow that if I share something that they are skeptical of, they will be straightforward with me without shaming me or diminishing me in any way, but respecting my discernment and humility in bringing my "insight" before them.

I, and people I know, have had experiences of God beyond Scripture. For example: I had long puzzled how a God who loves me so very, very much would want to have me feel like the lowest of the low, as Isaiah (whom He loved) felt when he said "I am a man of unclean lips" (Isaiah 6:5). Why would a loving Father wish to see his beloved child prostrated before Him? I had prayed about this many times. Then, at the end of a very dark day one day, I had this experience that words could never fully describe, but I will try. I had been indulging my addiction all day (no, not heroin ; I play solitaire on the computer  . Don't laugh; this is a real problem for me! It numbs me out, "protects" me from feeling, and while I feel nothing during, I feel more down than ever afterwards. I am terribly embarrased to say, I went 7 hrs straight that day   ; time I did NOT have to spare). I was feeling such wretchedness, shame and humiliation, and then the Lord lifted me from that. I had an experience of absolute creatureliness and humility, but at the same time an absolute abscence of humiliation. Never have I felt so loved, so beautiful and so very precious, and so utterly utterly dependent on God. I understood with my heart in that moment, and desired very much to prostrate myself before God. And so I lay on the floor in the hallway, on my face, filled with love and preciousness and humility.

This experience does not contradict scripture in any way, and when I shared my experience with my community, one of our members said, "Wow; that sure sounds like God to me!", and all agreed, and we rejoiced together in the way in which God was working in my life.

I hope that this helps,

In His love,

-Grace

[smartinez1984]

Grace,

Many thanks for your response and perspective. While perusing the Internet for info I came across this article, one among many:

http://www.the-highway.com/God_Speak.html

I would definitely like someone to read it and provide a response, poke holes if you will. I've read it over once and I'll be printing it out so that I can read it at home again.

Interestingly enough, I had an email exchange with a church member that brought this to mind again. We currently have a "role" in our church where someone is designated as responsible for "directing" a given service. In this case, this individual was going to be responsible for directing a Tuesday evening worship service. She emailed me asking if I thought her outline for that evening was acceptible in my eyes (I am the current worship director of our church). What got my attention was this:

She wanted to eliminate a part of the service that is traditionally a part of every one of our services and she felt there was going to be repercussion from some church members for doing so. However, she'd spoken with our pastor's wife and was told by her that she should direct the service as God leads her to do it. And, with that in mind, she (the service director) felt that God was leading her to do it in this manner. But, she wanted to know if it was ok with me.

So, that got me to thinking...

First, I wondered what it means to "let God lead you on how to direct the service" meant.

Second, since she believed that God was leading her to direct it this way why did she feel it was necessary to ask me if it was ok? How in the world am I going to go against God??

So, therein lies my desire to get clarification and direction on this...

God Bless,

-Samson

[grace]

Hi Samson,

To begin, I would like to amend something I said before, based on a conversation that I had with a friend:

that if the person cannot engage in adult, peaceful conversation about it, it is far more likely that it is not the whisperings of our Lord, but one of the other possibilities that I have mentioned above.

It can also easily be that while the person is truly experiencing God's work in their life, they may not have the gifts to articulate their experiences and defend their position; hence they avoid trying to do so (and perhaps wisely).

Re. the church member you mention: Perhaps she isn't sure if God really is directing her, and she was (as you are now) seeking clarification and direction. I think that this is wise of her, though she might even percieve it herself as a lack of faith on her own part. I believe that, while God certainly is capable of providing her (and each of us) with all the clarity in the world directly, for reasons that are far beyond my understanding (God's ways being so far beyond me), He usually doesn't. He seems to delight in working through us, and in our coming to Him not only as individuals, but also as a community.

A few questions:
-We are called to serve each according to our gifts (Romans 12); someone with a gift for service but not for teaching should not be called on to teach, but to serve. A hand is called on to be a hand, not a foot. Do the people being called on by your community to direct the service have the gifts and the desire to do so, or do their gifts lie elsewhere? I have the impression, from what you wrote in your first post, that the latter may be the case.

-If I am asked to direct a service in your community according to God's leading, and I don't sense God's leading, how likely would I be, within this community, to think that this is a poor reflection on my faith and on my deserving of esteem within the community? How likely are other members of the community to actually see it that way? Keep in mind that, even if that is emphatically not at all what community leaders would think, it may be what some in the community do think. A lot of pressure! If someone doesn't feel free to not hear God's directions, how can they ever be free to hear His directions?

Especially for matters that are not life-or-death, I think what matters more than anything is the spirit of trusting in God with which one undertakes to try to follow His leading. If I think that God wants me to do something but I'm unsure, and I go ahead and do it in a spirit of humility and reliance on Him, having faith that even if I heard wrong, He will bring good out of it in spite of my blunder if I let Him. The most important thing is to always be ready and willing to let Him. Psalm 37:5 - Commit your way to the LORD; trust in him, and he will act.

Re. the article: I don't see where White proves that "We may say, therefore, that for Paul and the rest of the New Testament authors, the judging of New Testament prophecies was a process of evaluating the prophets’ oracles in order to pass judgment on the prophets themselves and thus discern the source of their oracles." Unless I misunderstand him, he lumps the discernment that Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 14:29 and 1 Thessalonians 5:20-22 in with the rooting out of false prophets such as in Matt. 7:15-20. I just don't see the proof that these are connected, that they refer to the same kind of thing.

In His love,

-Grace