Opinions please: Forgiven for future sins?

[Heidi]

Amen, Bep!!

[michael_legna]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

There is no "works Gospel", just the Gospel of the Grace of God.

The Catholic Church does not teach a Gospel of works anymore than your denomination teaches a Gospel of faith.

Salvation is, as you so rightly pointed out, by grace.  So the true Gospel is one of grace, but the scriptures teach us that grace is accepted by faith and works together.

However, I see the futility of trying to convince those who practice and preach a works Gospel. We can simply agree to disagree. If there is belief and faith in Jesus as the Lord and Saviour, the believer will be saved even if they feel Salvation must be paid for.

Those who understand the scriptures to see that the gift must be accepted by both faith and works do not see our works of loving obedience as paying for the gift anymore than you see you faith as paying for it.

But that is ok because those who think the gift is accepted by faith alone and think their works are fruits of their faith will be saved even though the don't properly understand the relationship of their faith and works.

By the way, I'm not joining the debate because there isn't one. Everything is by, through, or in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour forever. Our assurance rests in HIM, not ourselves. The payment of HIS precious blood on the Cross was a perfect sacrifice, and "It is finished." In fact, it was finished over 2,000 years ago.

What was finished 2000 years ago was the making of the gift available.  If it was also the acceptance or presentation and receipt of the gift then we would not have a role in our own salvation and we would all be saved, but that is not the case - so we must have a role in our own salvation, a role that takes place today for us.  That role is a true living faith one that cannot be separated from works.

There are those who work because they feel that they must, and there are those who work simply from love and appreciation to our Lord and Saviour. Those that are not done simply in love and appreciation will be burned up.

I agree with this completely.  I would only add that those who feel we are saved only by faith and that even these works done simply from love are unneccessary and therefore do no perform them will not have truly accepted the gift and will not be saved.

[Heidi]

Mark, 11:24, "Therefore, I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." That includes salvation. All you have to do is BELIEVE. There are many verses in the bible that says we are saved by faith alone, but this one is the best! Since you have a hard time understanding jesus's words, Michael, i'll break it down for you. "Therefore" means accordingly, consequently..." "I" means Jesus since he is the one talking. "tell" means "express in words". "You" means to all who are listening. "Whatever" means "What"(with the emphasis on indefinteness), "You" means whoever is listening, "Ask for" means "plead", "in prayer" means communion with God, "believe" means "accept as true", "that" means "the person or thing indicated", "you" means to whoever is listening", "have received" means it's already been given to you", "it" means the thing being discussed", "and" means "connecting thoughts, words, or phrases", "it" means the thing being discussed", "will be" means future action, "yours" means possession of whoever is listening." His words can't be any clearer. It's extremely hard to distort those words but I'm sure you'll give it your best effort because that's your intention.

[michael_legna]

Mark, 11:24, "Therefore, I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." That includes salvation. All you have to do is BELIEVE.

First, you should never form a doctrine based on a single verse in isolation.  But more importantly this verse you chose proves my point not yours.   It does not say that all we have to do is believe.  It says we have to pray - prayer is an act of man it is a work.

There are many verses in the bible that says we are saved by faith alone, but this one is the best!

If that is your best then you are in real trouble - but then we both know that because there is only one place in all of scripture that uses the words "faith" and "only" together and it says we are not saved by faith only.

Jam 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

There is only one verse that speaks of faith alone and it says that type of faith is dead.

Jam 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

No there are no verses that say salvation is by faith alone and there are plenty of verses that relate works to a proper acceptance of the free gift.  I have offered the list to you before and you ignored them, but if you ask and offer to provide your interpretation to each I will post them again.

[Heidi]

Again, you had to omit some of Jesus's words in order to justify your interpretation. He said "therefore, I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE RECEIVED it, and it will be yours." The whole context in which this phrase was written has to do with FAITH IN GOD, which you don't have. If you had faith in God then you would KNOW if you believe he will give you what you want, you will have it. Again you have to add, subtract, or change his words in order to justify your interpretation. I again, believe them as they were written. By the way, praying to God does NOT come from the devil. Again, you are giving MAN credit for his faith which is pride at its worst!!

If you don't think this is a good example of faith then I consider that blasphemy. You have again demeaned Jesus's words to suit your own agenda. That passage is beautiful to me! It is NOTHING to you because you have dismissed it as simply Jesus saying that we should pray. You very obviously put blinders on during the phrase when he talked about believing that you have received it. But that's how you interpret the bible. By ignoring or twisting most of Jesus's words.

Since you don't believe Jesus's words in the above passage, you will again not understand how works COME FROM FAITH. Once we ask for something, Michael, the answer COMES FROM GOD. Why do you think Solomon asked for wisdom? If he could be wise by himself, he wouldn't have NEEDED to ask god for it!!!! Where do you think good works come from? The devil? From yourself so that you can boast? You LOVE to glorify yourself and other men! That is also the sin of pride which comes from the devil.  ALL of Paul's words have to do with good works coming from God, NOT from himself! That is HUMILITY, something you lack, which is precisely why I know your interpretation is NOT from the Holy Spirit!

[michael_legna]

Again, you had to omit some of Jesus's words in order to justify your interpretation. He said "therefore, I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE RECEIVED it, and it will be yours."

I did not omit some of His words in my interpretation - you did in yours.

I freely admit that faith plays a role in our salvation - yes you have to believe.  So the part about believing I don't disagree with.  It is just not faith alone as you want to claim.  The part you ignored is the part about us having to pray.  We have to pray and believe.  We have to work and have faith.  I did not omit part you did.

By the way, praying to God does NOT come from the devil.

No it comes from our free will cooperating with grace.

Again, you are giving MAN credit for his faith which is pride at its worst!!

No you are denying man credit for his faith.  You are saying God gives it to man and that means God gives imperfect gifts.  Worse yet you claim God gives us such an imperfect gift that we can perfect it through our own works.

Jam 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Since you don't believe Jesus's words in the above passage, you will again not understand how works COME FROM FAITH.

Some works do but not all - unless you can show me a verse that says that - but since you didn't even show me a verse that says some works come from faith I doubt you can.

Once we ask for something, Michael, the answer COMES FROM GOD. Why do you think Solomon asked for wisdom? If he could be wise by himself, he wouldn't have NEEDED to ask god for it!!!!

Solomon's wisdom was different and greater than other men's that is what made it a special gift - not just that he had wisdom.
If all wisdom came from God then why would God destroy it?

1Co 1:19  For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where do you think good works come from? The devil? From yourself so that you can boast?

The only thing you can boats over is works of the letter of the law, not works of the spirit of the law - that type of work allows no boasting because it is not done with the intention of meriting anything.

[Heidi]

Duh!  My interpretation depends on EVERY word in that sentence. I thought the prayer part was obvious, but maybe not to catholics.  I focused on the belief part because that was the point of that sentence which is clear by the word: "therefore" which connects Jesus's previous sentence which is about having enough faith that anything's possible. Your interpretation, however, DEPENDS on EXCLUDING; "and believe that you have received it." No wonder you can't find a passage in the bible which talks about faith alone! You doctor each passage you encounter, including the above one! You don't believe it as written but have to add your own words to it. Pretty sad indeed!

[michael_legna]

Duh!  My interpretation depends on EVERY word in that sentence. I thought the prayer part was obvious, but maybe not to catholics.  I focused on the belief part because that was the point of that sentence which is clear by the word: "therefore" which connects Jesus's previous sentence which is about having enough faith that anything's possible.

So you are saying that prayer is required or not?  You say your interpretation is based on the whole verse so is it or is it not required to pray as well as believe to get everything you want including salvation?

Your interpretation, however, DEPENDS on EXCLUDING; "and believe that you have received it."

No I don't exclude it I have always said that faith was required for salvation, it is just not enough alone as this verse proves.

No wonder you can't find a passage in the bible which talks about faith alone!

Oh but I can find a passage in the Bible that talks about faith alone.

Jam 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It is you who cannot find a passage that talks about salvation by faith alone.

[Heidi]

Where in that phrase did Jesus say that if we believe that we will receive anything we ask God for it will be ours is not enough?

THAT one! AND Romans, 1:16, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation for eveyone who believes: first for the jew, then for the gentile. For in the gospel a righeousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written; 'the righteous will live by faith." Romans, 8:1-2, "For there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Notice that Paul didn't say, "I am set free if I'm good enough." "Romans, 5:1-2, "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus christ through whom we have gained access by faith into his grace in which we now stand." Are justified by faith or not? Which is it? Or are you going to add to Paul's words again? Romans, 8:9-10, "You, however, are CONTROLLED not by the sinful nature, but by the spirit, if the spirit of god lives in you." that is my point EXACTLY! ONCE THE SPIRIT OF GOD LIVES IN US WE ARE NOW CONTROLLED BY THE SPIRIT WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY NO ONE CAN SNATCH US OUT OF HIS HAND! But YOU disagree with Paul's words and either believe that once the holy spirit is in us, we are either NOT controlled by the spirit or that our sinful nature is stronger than the spirit, do you not? How can someone walk away if he is CONTROLLED by the spirit?

There are many more verses on faith. You need to read Romans and make sure that ALL of it agrees, not just passages that talk about works. Again, works come FROM  the spirit which is why they are called "the fruits of the spirit"! Once the Holy Spirit is in us, Michael, He will NEVER DRIVE US AWAY!

[michael_legna]

PART 1 OF 2

Where in that phrase did Jesus say that if we believe that we will receive anything we ask God for it will be ours is not enough?

When He said we had to "ask for in prayer" as the first requirement and then told us the second requirement "believing".  See two requirements - easy.

THAT one! AND Romans, 1:16, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation for eveyone who believes: first for the jew, then for the gentile.
For in the gospel a righeousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written; 'the righteous will live by faith."

Again with your verse slinging while you remain afraid to offer an interpretation - shame, shame.

The on top of that you try to formulate doctrine by ignoring all the verses that tell us works are required for salvation, so you imply an interpretation for this verse in isolation from the rest of scripture - which you know is wrong.  

Finally, tell me Heidi what do you think it means to believe the Gospel.  Does it mean we just have to believe that He died for our sins?  Or do we have to believe all the Gospel and have His law written in our hearts?  Dopn;t we also have to obey the Gospel to have truly believed it?  Otherwise we

Oh in case you have forgotten the verses I provided that show works are related to salvation, (you know the ones you ignored last time I gave them to you and the ones you are ignoring this time by implying the interpretation you are afraid to put in writing next to the verses you quote here), I will provide them again.

Do the Will of the Father
Matt 7:21, Rom 2:13
Love God and Mankind
Luke 10:25-28, Mat 25:31-46
Keep the Commandments
Mat 19:16-17, Mar 10:17-19, Mat 5:19-29, 1John 3:15, Luke 18:18-22  
Repent   
2Co 7:10
Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
John 6:54  
Be Humble
Matt 5:3, Luke 18:9-14  
Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10  
Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life
Matt 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33, John 12:25, Mar 10:28-30  
Follow Christ
John 10:27-28  
Live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6, Rom 8:1  
Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4, Mat 19:14, James 5:20, 1John 3:20-21  
Emulate the Saints
Rom 11:14  
Obey the Gospel
1 Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 4:17-18, 2 Thes 1:8, Heb 5:9, James 1:21
Control Our Words
Matt 12:37  
Endure or Continue
Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13, 1 Tim 2:15, 1Ti 4:16, Rom 2:7
Work Out Our Salvation
1 Tim 6:12, 1Ti 6:19, Phi 2:12  
Be Baptized
1 Peter 3:20-21, Mark 16:16, John 3:5
We have to believe in His name   
Act 4:12, 1 Cor 6:11     

Romans, 8:1-2, "For there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Notice that Paul didn't say, "I am set free if I'm good enough."

And that is not what the Catholic Church teaches either – you really have to stop purposely misrepresenting the doctrine I have explained over and over again to you just to make your own case appear stronger.

What is the law of the Spirit of life Heidi?

Lets see what Paul says it is.

2Cor 3:6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

How do we fulfill the spirit of the law to life?

Lets again see what Paul said.

Rom 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Obviously Paul is talking here about the law of the Spirit of life here because he would not be concerned with fulfilling the letter of the law now would he?

END OF PART 1

[michael_legna]

PART 2 OF 2

"Romans, 5:1-2, "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus christ through whom we have gained access by faith into his grace in which we now stand." Are justified by faith or not? Which is it? Or are you going to add to Paul's words again?

Yes we are justified by faith – but not by faith alone.  This verse doesn't say faith alone now does it – or are you going to add to Paul's word?  

The faith Paul is discussing here is a living faith not a dead one and so it must be accompanied by works.

Romans, 8:9-10, "You, however, are CONTROLLED not by the sinful nature, but by the spirit, if the spirit of god lives in you." that is my point EXACTLY! ONCE THE SPIRIT OF GOD LIVES IN US WE ARE NOW CONTROLLED BY THE SPIRIT WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY NO ONE CAN SNATCH US OUT OF HIS HAND! But YOU disagree with Paul's words and either believe that once the holy spirit is in us, we are either NOT controlled by the spirit or that our sinful nature is stronger than the spirit, do you not? How can someone walk away if he is CONTROLLED by the spirit?

Your implied interpretation is once again teaching that God takes back the gift of free will.  But most of your problem comes from that terrible translation you are using.

Lets look at the verse as it is presented in the KJV and you will see this issue of control is nowhere to be seen.

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

I wonder where the translators got the word CONTROL SINCE IF YOU CARE ENOUGH ABOUT THE WORD OF God to look at the original inspired text you see that the word CONTROL doesn't exist in the text of that verse anywhere.

There are many more verses on faith. You need to read Romans and make sure that ALL of it agrees, not just passages that talk about works.

I have and I have provided my interpretation of the entire book for all to see and it is consistent with all the verses in Romans.  You have only implied interpretations to a few verses in isolation, refused to address those I suggest you look at (while I address everyone of yours) and your implied interpretation is not consistent.

Looks like your little walk down the Roman road took you nowhere.

Again, works come FROM  the spirit which is why they are called "the fruits of the spirit"!

Yes works are fruits of the spirit, not fruits of faith.  Faith too is a fruit of the spirit, but both of these fruits, faith and works, are also our fruits by cooperating with the grace of God.

Once the Holy Spirit is in us, Michael, He will NEVER DRIVE US AWAY!

That is true He doesn't drive us away – but He doesn't hold us prisoner either.

END OF PART 2
END

[Heidi]

Michael when i said that my interpretation in that phrase depends on EVERY words in His phrase, do you or do you NOT understand that that means prayer also. Did I say, EVERY word EXCEPT prayer, or do you not understand what the word"every" means?

You are hashing and re-hashing every argument we have ever had WIHTOUT understanding any of it. You have admitted that the spirit does not come into all Christians but only through the church. Therefore, you have proven Paul's words that "The man WITHOUT the SPIRIT does not accept the things that come from the SPIRIT OF GOD, for they are foolishess to him, and he CANNOT UNERSTAND them, because they are spiritually discerned." Until you discern the words in the bible from a spiritual mind, you CANNOT UNDERSTAND them. You contradict yourself incessantly, disagree with Jesus when he aid; "no one is good but God alone" and basically don't understand what it means to be born again of the spirit. Therefore, my words will fall on deaf ears. I KNOW the Holy spirit in me which is Christ living in me, so i know i have eternal life. You do NOT have that knowledge because you have said that the spirit does not come into all Christians. But Jesus sais that we CANNOT enter heaven without it.  But alas, that's your problem not mine. If you truly want to know what it means to be born again of the spirit, Michael, then ask GOD Himself for it, NOT the church, for God is the ONLY one who can give it to you. Otherwise, you're left with having to go other human beings who DO have the spirit in them to interpret the bible for you. Unfortunately, many people like David Koresh, SAY they have the spirit in them and their unfortunate victims who don't have the spirit in them either, can't spiritually discern who's telling the truth. So they pick the most dominating person or group. They are then under that person or group's control forever, instead of being controlled by the SPIRIT INSIDE OF THEM. Good luck and God bless.

[michael_legna]

Michael when i said that my interpretation in that phrase depends on EVERY words in His phrase, do you or do you NOT understand that that means prayer also. Did I say, EVERY word EXCEPT prayer, or do you not understand what the word"every" means?

Your claiming something and it being so are two different things as we have all learned talking to you.

You say that it includes prayer but then you deny that by saying salvation is by faith alone implying that prayer is not needed.

You have admitted that the spirit does not come into all Christians but only through the church.

That is a lie.  I never said that as I have correct you numerous times.  I said that the Holy Spirit is in every Christian but that is not the same thing as giving them the ability to infallibly interpret scripture.  Scripture itself only gives that authority to the Church.

You contradict yourself incessantly, disagree with Jesus when he aid; "no one is good but God alone"

No I contradict your simplistic literal interpretation of that verse.

I ask you again - are you claiming that Jesus was not good?

You answered this once saying that because He humbled Himself He was exalted.  Which was just a non-answer ducking the question.

So I will ask you more directly.

When Jesus was humbling Himself, before He was exalted - was He good?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not good?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not perfect?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not God?

If you answer yes to even one of those questions you are denying the divinity of Jesus.

Heidi - Do you believe that Jesus is God and always was God?

Answer the questions Heidi - all the questions - stop hiding from them - let people see what you believe in the light of day.

[Brother Love]

Opinions please: Forgiven for future sins?

Christ did it all PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE

Thank You Jesus

Brother Love

<))><

[Brother Love]

QUOTEAVBunyan


Try this on for size - Are you saved?  I'm assuming you are.  Then if you are saved then you are in Christ:

1 Cor 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Eph 5:30  For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

You are in Christ (and you are if you are saved) and Christ is in heaven at the right hand of the Father, right?

Then if you are in Christ and Christ is in heaven then you are in heaven right now:

Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

So...stay with me here...when God looks for "fastback" He looks to His right and there sits Jesus Christ and guess who is there in Jesus Christ - you!!!

Question - is Jesus perfect?  Are you in Christ?  Then guess what?  You are perfect in Christ - that is how God sees you, He sees you perfect in Christ.

Now, to the issue at hand - can there be any sin or unforgiveness in heaven?  No, so guess what, you are forgiven in Christ!!!  Now, down here you are in a mess if you are normal like the rest of us saints.  But the real you (in Christ) is seated in heavenly places in Christ, perfect, without sin, forever!!!  This is how God sees the real you.  

Yes, you are allowed to shout on this forum - we are not all dead.  

P.S. - dont' be surprised if some joy-stealer will come behind this post and tell you you have to confess and beg for forgivenss eveytime you mess up - expect this.

May God bless

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Re-Posted By Brother Love

AMEN!!!!!!!