Opinions please: Forgiven for future sins?

[michael_legna]

I can see why you don't believe in faith alone, Michael. You have ZERO faith in God that He can save you.

No I don't believe in the man made doctrine of salvation by faith alone because it did not exist until Luther came up with in in the 1500's.
 

You think He needs A LOT of help on this one. You instead, put your faith in men to save themselves.

No this is just you lying about my position again.  I have corrected you often enough by now that you have to know that is not what I am saying and so to continue to state it that way is to bear false witness against me.

When asked by His disciples who then can be saved, Jesus replied; "With man this is impossible. But with God all things are possible." Again, you don't believe him.

I do believe Him, without God first offering the gift we could not be saved regardless of how good our works are or even how strong our faith is.  If it is anything alone it is not faith it is grace.  Faith is just somethign we do to accept the gift.  But that faith must be a living faith so it cannot be alone as faith without works is dead.

A true Christians would not disagree with ANY of Jesus's words, much less many of them.

I don't disagree with Jesus' words I disagree with your interpretation of a limited subset of them.

Your beliefs disagree with Jesus's words about what eternal life is, they disagree with his words that none of is good but God alone, they disagree with his words it is impossible for man to save himself, you diagree with his words that Hs true sheep cannot be snatched out of His hand, you disagree with his words that the Holy Spirit will be with us forever, you disagree with his words when he said that he can do nothing without his father, and perhaps many more.

Instead of making claims of my beliefs why not address them in the posts I make them in and then show the scriptures that contradict my doctrines?  I will tellyou why you don't do that.  Because everytime you try you are shown to be wrong, to have ignored other scriptures from the word of God, to have misinterpreted the word of God and to have lied about the other persons position.  So instead you choose to attack people in these vague paragraphs in the hopes you wont be caught in a lie.

True interpretations come from interpretations where ALL of scripture agrees.

Yes and I have been able to reconcile every verse you provide or reference with my doctrine.  You on the other hand have ignore post after post and scripture after scripture.  I am sorry that the word of God means so little to you.

[Heidi]

Michael, Do you know what Jesus means when he said; "Now this is eternal life; that you know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent." He is VERY clear about it. Without adding or subtracting a thing from that phrase, do you know what Jesus says gives us eteral life?

[michael_legna]

Michael, Do you know what Jesus means when he said; "Now this is eternal life; that you know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent." He is VERY clear about it. Without adding or subtracting a thing from that phrase, do you know what Jesus says gives us eteral life?

Yes first I know that you do not try to form a doctrine form one verse in isolation.

Second I know that we must know Jesus in order to be saved, but this is more than just knowing that a carpentar named Jesus lived around the time of 33 AD.  It is also more than knowing that He is the Son of God.  It is also more than knowing Him in His role as sacrificial lamb.  We must also know Him as shepherd, ruler, king and vine.  To truly know Him we must know His teachings.  To truly believe in Him we must believe in His teachings.  His teachings tell us to properly accept the free gift of salvation we must have a living faith one that cannot be separated from works.

Do you really think that knowing Jesus is just knowing that He lived and died and rose again?  is that the type of limited relationship you want to have with the Lord?

Now one for you -

Do you know what Jesus means when he said;

Luke 18:18-22  And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.  And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.  Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

He is VERY clear about it. Without adding or subtracting a thing from that phrase, do you know what Jesus says gives us eternal life?

[Heidi]

Michael,
You have just added many words to that phrase which i suspected that you would. Jesus did not add anything to that phrase. he said; "Eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent." I was in an interdenominational bible study where EVERYONE except the catholics understood EXACTLY what he meant. They did not say yes but...or add their own interpretations. Jesus put NO conditions of that phrase. Again, "eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent."  That's (eternal life, i.e.salvation) in a nutshell. That's all she wrote. But you disagree with him again.   You don't think that's enough.

[sojourner]

Heidi,

Once again you fail to answer a direct question. Michael added absolutely nothing to the text. He wrote it out for you and you get stuck on your verse. It seems it is the only verse in the Bible for you. Even if a verse corroborated the one you use you would deny it, only because it is not the verse.

I would be interested in your answer here.

[michael_legna]

Michael,
You have just added many words to that phrase which i suspected that you would.

Only to explain what it means to know Him.  Were you able to answer any of the questions to the affirmative that I asked before I got to the point of including His role as shepherd, king, and lord?  If not then I clearly needed to define the word "know" for you.

Jesus did not add anything to that phrase. he said; "Eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent."

He didn't need to add anything to it because He understood what it meant to know God.  But you clearly don't.

I was in an interdenominational bible study where EVERYONE except the catholics understood EXACTLY what he meant.

No what you mean is everyone there except the Catholic's misunderstood it the same way you do.

Jesus put NO conditions of that phrase. Again, "eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent."  

Understanding what it means to know someone is not a condition on knowing them.  

That's (eternal life, i.e.salvation) in a nutshell.

You can't put eternal life in a nutshell.

That's all she wrote. But you disagree with him again.   You don't think that's enough.

No that is all you wrote and you do not write or speak for God.

[Heidi]

Since i do know God and have a personal relationship with Christ through the Holy Spirit, I have eternal life. You don't believe you do, therefore, you obviously don't believe Jesus!!!! You are adding the word "if" to His statement about knowing Him. We have eternal life IF.... not we have eternal life because we know him. As we grow in Christ, the Holy Spirit brings us more and more into obedience everyday. Some people will sit closer to the right hand of the Father and some won't. We can't ALL sit close to the right hand, Michael. What do you think determines where we sit in heaven? The very fact that not everyone will sit as close to Him as others SHOWS that some people's works will be more than others and they STILL enter heaven. Ironically, as  I posted in another thread the ones who are AWARE of their good works are boasting about them because they have to keep track of them in order to be saved!  But the genuine humble servant, doesn't keep track of his works because he does them out of love without the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing. Those works come from the holy Spirit. The works of the former person are done to gain honor for himself.

Knowing someone is not a condition upon knowing them? Do you even think? You either know someone personally or you don't.

Eternal life is LIFE FROM THE SPIRIT THAT NEVER GOES AWAY, Michael. It isn't earned or competed for. Eternal life is the life from Jesus Christ inside of us! That's why Jesus said; The kingdom of heaven is within you." Do you even know what that means? You disagree with him there also because you do NOT think it is in us. You think you have to earn it. Again, once you receive the holy Spirit inside of you, YOU WILL KNOW WHAT HEAVEN IS! Until then, you will always be striving for it through good works. Sorry, but when the owner of the house closes the door he will say, 'I never KNEW you. Get away from me, you evildoers!" The Pharisees thought they did good works also. Look where they are right now.

[michael_legna]

You are adding the word "if" to His statement about knowing Him. We have eternal life IF.... not we have eternal life because we know him.

There is no difference between the two ways of saying this issue.  Other than one is spoken from pride (claiming to know somethign that is yet to be decided in the future and one is spoken out of Hope.

As we grow in Christ, the Holy Spirit brings us more and more into obedience everyday. Some people will sit closer to the right hand of the Father and some won't. We can't ALL sit close to the right hand, Michael. What do you think determines where we sit in heaven? The very fact that not everyone will sit as close to Him as others SHOWS that some people's works will be more than others and they STILL enter heaven.

Our works determine what crowns or rewards we get in heaven, but you assume that is all they do and that is your mistake.  There is no scripture that says works are for rewards ONLY.

Ironically, as  I posted in another thread the ones who are AWARE of their good works are boasting about them because they have to keep track of them in order to be saved!  But the genuine humble servant, doesn't keep track of his works because he does them out of love without the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing. Those works come from the holy Spirit. The works of the former person are done to gain honor for himself.

That is correct.  But those who do good works as a loving response to the free gift, do not boast of them.  I have never boasted to you of my works have I?  Catholics who follow the teachings of the Church properly do not baost of their works.  The one mistake you make is that these works come from the Holy Spirit as if they come only from Him.  They are also truly our works as they come from the cooperation of our free will with the Holy Spirit.

Knowing someone is not a condition upon knowing them? Do you even think? You either know someone personally or you don't.

Where did you get that statement - I didn't say it you are once again misrepresenting my position just to make yourself look good.

What I said was - Understanding what it means to know someone is not a condition on knowing them.  

It is like understanding what the word chocolate means is not a condition on whether you like chocolate.  I did not place a condition on our knowing Him I was explaining what it means to know Him as you apparently do not understand this concept and that is why you do not really know Him or His teachings, as is evidenced by your misquoting scripture and your fear of providing interpretations of the verses you reference.

Eternal life is LIFE FROM THE SPIRIT THAT NEVER GOES AWAY, Michael.

Prove it with scripture - I have shown several verses that prove we can lose our salvation and you just ignored them.  Tell me how does it feel when you have to ignore the word of God to continue to attack people and lie about them just to win an argument.

It isn't earned or competed for.

I never said it was - that is just you misrepresenting my position once again.

Eternal life is the life from Jesus Christ inside of us! That's why Jesus said; The kingdom of heaven is within you." Do you even know what that means?

There you go quoting scripture out of context and trying to hide it by refusing to offer book and verse references.  Until you tell me what wierd translation you are using it makes it very hard to verify the scriptures you use (and I have to verify them because you get them wrong so often - sometimes never int he same way twice).  Please tell me what translation you are using.

Lets look at the verse you misquote again in its full context.

Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luk 17:22  And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
Luk 17:23  And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who did not believe in Him and were testing Him trying to find out whent he end of the world was.  Jesus is trying tot each them not to worry about it, and to focus on converting themselves to be as little children, living their life in a way so as to be ready to fit in to that Kingdom.  That is how the kingdom of God is within us when our works (in loving response to the free gift) match the behavior of those in the kingdom.

You disagree with him there also because you do NOT think it is in us.

No I disagree with your sophmoric interpretation that it is ONLY within us and that there is no fulfillment of it in the future when the end times and our final judgement await us.

The following scripture makes it clear that there is an aspect of the kingdom that is not yet come.  

Mat 25:34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The kingdom still awaits us.

You think you have to earn it.

No I never said that.  That is just you bearing false witness about me and what I have stated.  No one can earn salvation, but you have to understand that all works are not about merit.  Some are done out of love.  Do you love someone?  When you do something for them or obey the wishes of that person do you think you are meriting their love in return?  Of course not.  So you see not all works are about earning - some are about relationships.  To have a true loving relationship with Jesus you must obey Him and the Gospel.

Sorry, but when the owner of the house closes the door he will say, 'I never KNEW you. Get away from me, you evildoers!" The Pharisees thought they did good works also. Look where they are right now.

There is a difference between doing good works out of love and thinking you are doing good works trying to merit salvation.  The latter is what the Pharisees were doing and that is why theywere unacceptable.  It is not just because they were doing works - it was because of the type of works they were doing and the intent behind them.

[Heidi]

Well, Michael, Jesus uses the word "Know" instead of hope which you have inserted. Not only do you again not believe Him, but it is YOU who are twisting his words and inserting words of your own. If you cannot see that, then you truly do not have the capacity to be honest. The phrase "knowledge of God" is used all throughout the bible. You really do need to know the bible better than the catholic doctirine in order to understand what it means to be a Christian.

But you say we won't even GET to heaven without good works! Good works, according to you, IS how we are saved! That contradicts all of the NT and agrees with the Jews and the Muslims!

All I have been sayin ALL ALONG is that good works come from the Holy Spirit once we receive it, NOT in order to receive the Holy Spirit. All through Romans, Michael, paul talks about how we are SAVED by Grace through the holy Spirit, NOT by works. Works are a natural RESULT of the holy Spirit which is why they are called the "fruits of the spirit", not the fruits of ourselves.

Your statment that I just want to make myself look good is highly unfounded and a desire to hurt. I am intrested in the TRUTH and want to pass along Jesus's words. I could care less what you think of me and i hardly look Good to you and those who disagree with me. If i wanted to look good, Michael, i'd say EXACTLY what you want to hear!

[michael_legna]

Well, Michael, Jesus uses the word "Know" instead of hope which you have inserted. Not only do you again not believe Him, but it is YOU who are twisting his words and inserting words of your own. If you cannot see that, then you truly do not have the capacity to be honest.

I did not insert HOPE into His words that is just you lying again.  Christ in the verse you referenced was talking about knowing God, not about knowing you are saved.  My reference to the word HOPE was not about HOPING God (that makes no sense) it was about the Hope we have for salvation IF we know Him.  It was a completely different topic and you have confused the two discussions.

The phrase "knowledge of God" is used all throughout the bible.

Yes and it is more than just knowing their is a God to know God.  

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

To know God or to believe in Christ is more than just acknowledging that they exist.  You have to know and understanmd their wills and what they have taught.  You cannot truly believe in Jesus unless you believe in what He taught and do it.

But you say we won't even GET to heaven without good works!

No I don't say that - the Bible says that.


James 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Good works, according to you, IS how we are saved! That contradicts all of the NT and agrees with the Jews and the Muslims!

No I did not say that - that is you bearing false witness about my position again.  Don't you ever get tired of breaking God's commandments?

I said that we are saved by grace through faith (a true living faith) that cannot be separated from works.  Those works do not merit us salvation any more than our faith does but they are just as important, for you cannot truly believe in someone unless you believe and follow their teachings too, and Christ taught us to fulfill the spirit of the law through love.

All I have been sayin ALL ALONG is that good works come from the Holy Spirit once we receive it, NOT in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

The you are wrong.  Good works come from grace.  The gift of grace comes first, until then we are not even capable of seeking God, but once we have God's grace we acknowledge we are sinful, we repent and acknowledge we need a savior, we begin to seek that savior,  then we learn about our savior and His teachings, then we believe in that savior and His teachings, part of the belief is to decide to follow Him, He knocks and we open the door.  This is when we have the Holy Spirit enter into us.  Now we begin to cooperate with the graces God gives us to do good works and these works are the fruits of grace.  Up to this point all the good works come from our free will cooperating with the initial infusion of grace, not from the graces associated with being filled with the Holy Spirit.

All through Romans, Michael, paul talks about how we are SAVED by Grace through the holy Spirit, NOT by works. Works are a natural RESULT of the holy Spirit which is why they are called the "fruits of the spirit", not the fruits of ourselves.

Show me a verse where he says we saved by grace through the Holy Spirit don't just claim this as you have shown yourself to be very untrustworthy in quoting or interpreting scripture accurately.

Some works are a natural result of the grace we receive as the Spirit dwells within in us - but not all - as I showed above some are due to grace we receive prior to being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Your statment that I just want to make myself look good is highly unfounded and a desire to hurt. I am intrested in the TRUTH and want to pass along Jesus's words. I could care less what you think of me and i hardly look Good to you and those who disagree with me. If i wanted to look good, Michael, i'd say EXACTLY what you want to hear!

Then why do you keep purposely misrepresenting my position  in an effort just to win an argument.  I don't like being lied about anymore than anyone else would.

[Heidi]

i already knew what you meant by the word, "hope", Michael. Instead of believing that by knowing God, we will have eternal life, you are hoping that have eternal life if you Know God. I simply believe Jesus's words. Knowing hims, which is also knowing God, gives me eternal life, period.

Many people know what their teachings are, Michael. Some  self-proclaimed atheists I know have acutally memorized scripture. When jesus talks about knowing, he is referring to knowing someone intimately. That's the ONLY explanation because virutally most people know about him and many know his teachings but don't believe them. when you have a personal reationship with a friend, is there an interpreter bewteen the 2 of you? Or do you relate to him on a one-on-one?  Which of the 2 friendships is a persoanl one?

If you believe that the bible says we get to heaven through our good works then you are contradicting most of Jesus's words. I will only quote a few of them. :"The kingdom of heaven is within you." "Eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and jesus christ whom he sent.' "I tell you the truth unless a man is born of water and the spirit he will never enter the kingdom of heaven." "The work of god is this; to believe in the one he sent." "Come to me and i will give you rest." And now other scripture; Rev. 1:5, "To him who loves us and has FREED us from our sins by his blood..." Romans, 3:22-24, "This righeousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justifued freely by grace through the redemtion that came by Jesus Christ." It CANNOT be any clearer than that, Michael.

What do you think Grace is? You have shown that you do NOT understand the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit IS how we know Christ personally! It is why Paul could not "walk away" or the disciples couldn't walk away! Before he received the holy Spirit at penetcost, Peter ran away from Christ for fear of his own life. Then  when the Holy Spiit came at pentecost, he "suddenly" GAVE UP his life for Christ? Why do you think that is, Miachael? Just a coincidence? What suddenly changed his mind? Boredom? What in the world do you think grace is? You need to read the latter part of john when jesus talks about the Holy Spirit and what it does for us.

Michael, all through John, Jesus talks about being saved by the Holy Spirit. "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you will have no LIFE in you." Do you even know what that means? All through Romans and in Jesus's words, Jesus talks about life through the spirit, the spirit giving us life, the spirit giving us eternal life. What do you think he means when he says that eternal life is to KNOW him? Once we receive the body of Christ inside of us in the form of the Holy Spirit, we then KNOW CHRIST INTIMATELY. That is what he means! There are just too many to quote. You need to read them for yourselves, that is, if you're truly interested. I get the feeling, though, that you do not know what the Holy Ghost is. It is as in Gal. 2:20, "For it is no longer i who live but christ who lives in me." Once you understand that, you will understand what it means to eat His flesh and drink his blodd, what it means to KNOW Him personally, what he means when he says the Holy Spirit will be with us forever and that he lives in us and we live in Him, what he means when he says that no one can be snatched out of his hand, and most importantly, you will know what salvation is. There is just too much that you don't understand without quoting the whole gospel. You need to read ALL of his words in order to understand what he's saying.

[michael_legna]

PART 1 OF 2

i already knew what you meant by the word, "hope", Michael.

Then why did you accuse me of adding to His word when you knew I wasn't.  You are just dishonest.

Instead of believing that by knowing God, we will have eternal life, you are hoping that have eternal life if you Know God. I simply believe Jesus's words. Knowing hims, which is also knowing God, gives me eternal life, period.

But you don't even know what it means to know Him - or at least you have ducked answering the question everytime I have asked it.

Many people know what their teachings are, Michael. Some  self-proclaimed atheists I know have acutally memorized scripture. When jesus talks about knowing, he is referring to knowing someone intimately. That's the ONLY explanation because virutally most people know about him and many know his teachings but don't believe them. when you have a personal reationship with a friend, is there an interpreter bewteen the 2 of you? Or do you relate to him on a one-on-one?  Which of the 2 friendships is a persoanl one?

This personal relationship you are talking about happens when you know and understand the person's teachings and join them to your own life, not until.  So until we follow Him and obey the Gospel we do not have that personal relationship.

If you believe that the bible says we get to heaven through our good works then you are contradicting most of Jesus's words.

Stop lying!!!!  You know I do not say that.  I say we get to heaven due to the free gift of God we have to accept it through a living faith one which cannot be separated from works.

I will only quote a few of them.

No actually I am not counting this as you quoting any of them as once again to hide the errors in your doctrine you quote them from some Bible transaltion you are apparently ashamed of and won't tell anyone what it is and you do not provide the references to the book and verse to slow people down in looking up your errors.

"The kingdom of heaven is within you."
"Eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and jesus christ whom he sent.'
"The work of god is this; to believe in the one he sent."

I have covered all of these previously and shown you the error in your interpretation.

The following one is new from you.

"I tell you the truth unless a man is born of water and the spirit he will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

It shows that we have to have faith (spiritual rebirth) and do works (baptism) to be saved.  This supports my doctrine not yours.

The other one you listed was:
"Come to me and i will give you rest."

Notice He never says when we will get that rest.  When we are saved (decided at the end of the last judgment) we will rest - until then we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

And now other scripture; Rev. 1:5, "To him who loves us and has FREED us from our sins by his blood..."

Yes He had to free us from our sins to make the gift of salvation available – but we still have to accept it – that is what this discussion is about – how do we accept the free gift or have you forgotten?

Romans, 3:22-24, "This righeousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justifued freely by grace through the redemtion that came by Jesus Christ." It CANNOT be any clearer than that, Michael.

It may be clear but you should not base you doctrine on a single verse in isolation and since I have shown you numerous scripture verses that show salvation is not by faith alone and you have yet to respond to a single one of them I would not be too quick to think this proves salvation through faith alone.

But lets look at the proper interpretation of it anyway (even though I know you will ignore this and not respond to the analysis preferring instead to launch another attack).

The verse says that all have sinned and do not deserve to be with God.  We are both agreed on that point.  It goes on to say that we are then justified by Jesus' sacrifice, in other words His perfect sacrifice made our redemption possible as a free gift by grace.  Now comes the point where we will disagree.  It says that we can be made righteousness through faith or believing in Jesus.  You immediately jump to the conclusion (because of how you have been indoctrinated) that this is referring to faith alone.  I interpret this faith (in order to be consistent with the rest of scripture) to be a true living faith – one that cannot be separated from works.  I interpret this believing in Him (again to be consistent with the rest of scripture) as meaning that we have to believe in Him not just as sacrificial lamb, but as shepherd and king and lord, requiring that we obey and follow Him, so that true belief too cannot be separated from works.

END OF PART 1

[michael_legna]

PART 2 OF 2

What do you think Grace is?

Grace is a supernatural help of God for salutary acts granted in consideration of the merits of Christ.

Before he received the holy Spirit at penetcost, Peter ran away from Christ for fear of his own life.

You are just making that up – show me the verse you get this strange notion from.

What in the world do you think grace is?

Grace is not the Holy Spirit if that is what you are implying with you strange story of Peter fleeing.

Michael, all through John, Jesus talks about being saved by the Holy Spirit. "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you will have no LIFE in you." Do you even know what that means?

Yes it is talking about the sacrament of the Eucharist as I have already explained to you and provided verse references for and which you ignored.  Don't you eve get tired of ignoring the word of God?

What do you think he means when he says that eternal life is to KNOW him?

I have already answered this several times and you have not responded to my answers except to change the subject or merely re ask the same questions.  Go back and read my answers and address them if you can.

Once we receive the body of Christ inside of us in the form of the Holy Spirit,
I get the feeling, though, that you do not know what the Holy Ghost is. It is as in Gal. 2:20, "For it is no longer i who live but christ who lives in me."  Once you understand that, you will understand what it means to eat His flesh and drink his blodd, what it means to KNOW Him personally,

This is utter nonsense – the second person of the trinity and the third are not interchangeable.  You do not receive the body of Christ inside you by having the Holy Spirit inside you.  Do you understand the trinity at all?  There are three separate and distinct persons in the Trinity you can't exchange one for another when it suits your whim.

what he means when he says the Holy Spirit will be with us forever

He also said that Jesus will be with us until the end of the world and these two promises do not mean the same thing, which proves that eating the body of Christ is not the same thing as being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You need to read ALL of his words in order to understand what he's saying.

I have read them all several times and I have shown how my interpretations are consistent with all of them and you have not even responded to my interpretations.  Where as everyone of your strange doctrines I have shown to be inconsistent with some verse of scripture and you have yet to come back and defend a single one of them, preferring instead to generate new attacks and misrepresent my position.

END OF PART 2
END

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

There is no "works Gospel", just the Gospel of the Grace of God. However, I see the futility of trying to convince those who practice and preach a works Gospel. We can simply agree to disagree. If there is belief and faith in Jesus as the Lord and Saviour, the believer will be saved even if they feel Salvation must be paid for. Grace is a gift and the GIFT was Jesus Christ on the Cross. Jesus Paid It All, all to HIM I owe. I would simply suggest going back to the basics and trying to understand why Jesus Christ was crucified on the Cross and what it means.

Romans 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

By the way, I'm not joining the debate because there isn't one. Everything is by, through, or in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour forever. Our assurance rests in HIM, not ourselves. The payment of HIS precious blood on the Cross was a perfect sacrifice, and "It is finished." In fact, it was finished over 2,000 years ago.

There are those who work because they feel that they must, and there are those who work simply from love and appreciation to our Lord and Saviour. Those that are not done simply in love and appreciation will be burned up.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[JudgeNot]

Those (works) that are not done simply in love and appreciation will be burned up.

Yup.  Can we put a great big PERIOD after that?