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Author Topic: Losing salvation?  (Read 4057 times)
bibleman10
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« on: May 23, 2004, 09:28:16 AM »

I don't understand what they are talking about over here http://www.timebombers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1220&start=0
How can one lose their salvation if they are already saved? Could someone help me with this?
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AG Man
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« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2004, 12:45:16 AM »

Unconditional securityies say, "A believer can never be lost. If anyone is lost he was never saved.

A man pulled out of a lake and saved from death can again fall  into the lake and be rescued again and again then finally be drowned. A man lost in the woods and who has been found can go back into the woods and be lost and found any number of times. One might as well argue that because a man was lost in the woods and died without being found, that he was never out of the woods in the first place, as to argue that a man who is finally lost in Hell was never once saved.

The law is, "if ye live after the flesh,ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:13) and "the soul  that sinneth it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4).

Eternal life is given to a man when he gets into Christ and it is his as long as he remains in Christ. He loses it when he is cut off from Christ.

No man   has to sin and be lost and he cannot be saved when he sins.
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Jemidon2004
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2004, 04:18:38 PM »

here's a Scripture you can check out bible man, do an in depth study of this Scripture and you'll find something interesting. Study the Koine Greek and all yo ucan on these verses. Hebrews 6:4-6 read it carefully. then you may find the answer you seek. God Bless

In His Service,
Joshua
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Brother Love
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2004, 05:27:46 AM »

I don't understand what they are talking about over here http://www.timebombers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1220&start=0
How can one lose their salvation if they are already saved? Could someone help me with this?

"ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" And thats the bottom line, because God said soooooooooo.

I will be joining you soon Bro Smiley

Brother Love Smiley

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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2004, 02:47:41 PM »

I would think that if one became saved and then got into their old habbits and didn't have support of other christians and thought that since they were saved that God would continue to forgive then over and over.  With that sinner feeling no guilt or remorse or grief (all from the HOLY SPIRIT) which should have come upon them when they were, and continuing to sin.

If you don't turn from your evil ways and try to become like Jesus, I absolutely think, well....I'll just say this-'I sure wouldn't want to be in that person's shoes when I die or am taken to meet Him!!!'
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2004, 11:36:40 PM »

How can you lose your salvation? If you could lose it then you couldn't have been saved to begin with! Salvation means that a person's soul is saved. A person is either saved or he isn't. Saying we can lose our salvation is a misnomer. It's like being slightly pregnant!
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2004, 10:06:36 AM »

Bibleman:

The full and complete answer is in John 17, Jesus' prayer to the Father on behalf of believers.

If you can convince me or anyone else that God the Father ignored or conditioned what Jesus asked for, then I'll believe that I can be lost, after having been found, and that God the Father is neither big enough, powerful enough, or loving enough to keep me.


AG man: the lake/woods corollary is ridiculous. Your quotation of Ezekiel also stipulates quite clearly that you want to live by the law. So be it. Hope you don't mess up and miss on any ONE point.
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Shwynix
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2004, 07:28:18 AM »

Hi,

I see the little icon says i am a newbie and i'd like to confess that i am so in every sense of the word. New in Christ and new in the word so bear with me when i question things. You guys/girls really seem to know what you are talking about so forgive my tottering steps in this brand new world.

Heidi, Matthew 25: 14-30 speaks of the parable of the talents. In verse 30 the 'wicked and slothful' servant was thrown into the outer darkness for being afraid to place what he had recieved on the line and grow it for his Lord and Master. From the discussion thread you appear to be saying that if i wish to keep a pew warm every Sunday for the rest of my life and not do anything to prosper His kingdom, my place in heaven will still be secure.

What then of the specifics of the words used in Revelation 2: 2 "I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance..." or Revelation 2: 19 "I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first." or again in Revelation 2: 26 "He who conquers and he who keeps my works to the end, I will give him power over the nations..." Revelation 3: 1-2 again specifies works "I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead. Awake and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God."

All through the message to the churches the implication is that if the churches did not shape up He would ship them out. I think i agree with Michael that you can lose your salvation.

Jesus, in John 15:6, in speaking of the vine clearly states that "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."

If i don't want to be burned then i must endure in love and good works which is only accomplished through abiding in Him. I focus on Him, i bear fruit, Father prunes, He is glorified and the world shouts hallelujah!!!!

Seems simple enough
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Heidi
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2004, 09:30:43 AM »

Hi Shwynix,

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that it is the Holy Spirit that gives me growth, not, I myself. It is the Holy Spirit that saves me, not I, myself. it is the Holy Spirit that gives me the desire to do God's will. It is the Holy Spirit that prunes me, just like Jesus said that His Father is the gardner. Michael said that the Holy Spirit does NOT go into the individual Christian but through the church, which blatantly contradicts Jesus's words that we must be born again of water and the spirit to enter heaven.  I found verses that explain that "a man without the spirit cannot understand the things of God because they are not spiritually discerned." Michael's and my basic dsagreements are that he thinks we ourselves I give complete credit to God for all the good in me just like Jesus gives complete credit to his father for everything that He does. Again, as I've said umpteen times, works COME FROM THE hOLY sPIRIT IN US, not from our own nature. Tha's why they are called the fruits of the SPIRIT. Saying that we can walk away from the Spirit is saying that our own nature is stronger than the Holy Spirit. It is NOT.
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2004, 07:24:23 PM »

I will be back tonight on this thread after I get in a little overtime at work.  But I am extremely concerned with those who feel they can lose their salvation because their knowledge of salavation does not honor the complete perfect work of Jesus on the cross.

Is that what some of you are saying that you can lose your spiritual salvation most certainly if you sin?

There are three separate salvations, yet one on the whole.  Paul explains this.  There is a spirit salvation instantly to where you are sealed with the Holy Spirit, a soul salvation that is our life walk, losing to soul,( where we are refined until the end of our life here on earth-continual working of the Lord through us.  This is the obedience also in following his principles and commandments, such as baptism, abstaining from things that will harm us, etc..  These are works after we are saved in the way we show our love to God by trusting His perfect knowledge of whats good for us.  This is the salvation we are working through.  Even Paul did things that he struggled with.  We, by no means can be perfect.  I know I'm not losing everlasting life because I sin.  We sin all the day long.  My goodness!
Then there's a body salvation that will be redeemed at the judment seat of Christ.  
I'll be back tonight for sure to give some very interesting verses for consequences of an apostate, but surely to give some to make sure of one important thing, that salvation is everlasting by scripture.  Repentance is only for those who have sinned and never want to do that sin again.  That's our avenue for sins when they occur and we have problems with them or want the Lord to overcome them.  

Love in Christ,
IconHis

PS  I just want you to have peace in salvation.  I am really concerned for your salvation.  I hope I am mistaken in what I read.
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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2004, 04:04:13 AM »

Here is what I have found about salvation.
Salvation of the Spirit
KJV
Ephesians 2:8,9
The actual order of wording should be:
For by Grace through faith you have been saved: and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God--
Not of works lest any man should boast

The Emphatic Diaglott
By that favor, indeed you have been saved, through the faith:  and this is not from you:  it is God's gift;
not from works, so that no man may boast:

It is evident that the Word of God tells us we have the power not to sin, yet we do sin because it is in the blood, then the struggle is between the spirit and the flesh.  
If one feels that if others sin that they are not saved, that is like saying they must work to save themselves.  

By this scripture, clearly we are told that we are given the faith to go with God's plan, which by Grace, through the faith we are saved.  It directly explains in the second statement refering back to the first statement that we are not saved by our works.   This salvation is a gift from God.

Abraham was saved by faith, yet his works were in obedience to God.  This was his life walk, or soul salvation.  We are to lose to soul in order to gain it in the kingdom.  The kingdom is not here on earth at this time. Thereare two kingdoms in the future, Christ's millenial kingdom, and then God's, and thereafter ages of ages.   This is why we are continually refined until our last day on this earth.  This is why Jesus died for our sins so we can have a relationship with God, through Him, guided by the Holy Spirit. We can repent after we are spiritually saved and are forgiven.  Of course we are to try to  walk righteously and not purposely sin thinking afterwards all we have to do is ask forgiveness.  God knows our hearts. Our life walk,( soul salvation ), is the most important aspect of our life in this age after our initial salvation.   If we work for our spiritual salvation we will never get past the stage of this age's spiritual salvation. Actually, we will not be saved.  We must believe that Jesus is God's son for our salvation from death after this life.


Diaglott
Galatians 3:4,5
However you are justifying yourself by law, are separated from Christ:  you are fallen from the favor
We however, are waiting in Spirit, for a hope of righteousness from faith.  
This is where the saved have fallen away from living for the Lord, working on their own and out of fellowship with God.
Salvation of the spirit-relationship with God
Soul salvation- fellowship with God

Once we sin, our fellowship is broken, not the relationship
therefore, we repent after a while because once saved the Holy Spirit uplifts, guides, and convicts.  The only reason we can repent is because Jesus died on the cross for our sins.  That means all our sins, and we will sin throughout our lives.
We can only repent after we are spirituall saved.  If we repent to be saved....that is a work.  The jews were told to repent because they already had a relationship with God and they fell away.  So, when you see that, check it out, the jews are being spoken to as far as being told to repent and be baptized.  Another topic.


All in all...

Having been justified, therefore, by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ   Romans 5:18

Quickly, the soul salvation...
There are many examples of soul salvation that say "might", or "hope to", to work through soul salvation.
one example:  
Diaglott  
James 1:22  
Therefore, discarding all impurity and overflowing of malice, embrace with meekness that implanted word which is able to save your souls.

Of course, we must remember there are no works that are worthy except the works of Christ through us.  These works of the Lord through us  will be left after the fire burns off the works of wood hay and stubble.  So whatever we allow the Lord to work through us will stand at His judgment seat.  1 Corinthians Chapter three.
 
I have to finish tomorrow.

Love In Christ, iconHis




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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2004, 03:46:02 AM »

Hi all,

Just for clarity on my part: i believe that before knowing Jesus any good works i do does not bring me salvation. Only accepting Jesus and His sacrifice brings me salvation. After accepting Him i enter into His labour, do good works through His Holy Spirit living in me, not through my own strength, and continue in salvation.

I believe salvation is a continuall process as i abide in Him. it is not one decision made at one point in time that renders me forever forgiven and saved. if that were the case then i would have no need to daily ask for forgiveness. I believe he continually changes me and cleanses me through me daily being obedient to the prompting of the Spirit to abide in him, when i stumble He is faithful to His Word of truth to forgive me for my frailty.  

Jesus spoke many times of the unfaithful servant and how he gets cast into the outer darkness for his unfaitfulness. This tells me that servant made a choice as in Matthew 24:48. He decided His master was delayed and he decided to eat and drink with the drunken. He did not endure unto the end.

I do believe I have a choice/free will not because I am more powerful than the Holy Spirit but because God wants me to be like Him and make good and proper choices, since i am created in His image. If I have no free will then that would mean that God has no free will either and that just doesn’t compute.

with love
GD

 
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Brother Love
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2004, 05:05:59 AM »

HE PAID IT ALL

After living a "decent" life my time on earth came to an end.
The first thing I remember is sitting on a bench in the waiting room of what I thought to be a court house.
The doors opened and I was instructed to come in and have a seat by the defense table.

As I looked around I saw the "prosecutor," he was a villainous
looking gent who snarled as he stared at me, he definitely was the most evil personI have ever seen.

I sat down and looked to my left and there sat my lawyer, a kind and gentle looking man whose appearance seemed very familiar to me.

The corner door flew open and there appearedthe judge in full flowing robes.
He commanded an awesome presence as He moved across the room and I couldn't take my eyes off of Him.

As He took His seat behind the bench He said "Let us Begin."

The prosecutor rose and said "My name is Satan and I am here toshow you why this Person belongs in Hell."
He proceeded to tell of lies thatI told, things that I stole
and in the past when I cheated others.

Satan told of other horrible perversions that were once in my life and the more he spoke the further down in my seat I sank.
I was so embarrassed that I couldn't look at anyone, even my own lawyer, as the Devil told of sins that even I had completely forgotten about.

As upset as I was at Satan for telling all these things about me, I was equally upset at my representativewho sat there silently not offering any form of defense at all. I know I had been guilty of those things, but I had done some good in my life -- couldn't that at least equal out part of the harm I've done.

Satan finished with a fury and said "This Person belongs in Hell, He is guilty of all that I have chargedand there is not a person who can prove otherwise.

Justice will finally be served this day."

When it was His turn, my lawyerfirst asked if might approach the bench. The Judge allowed this over the strong objection of Satan, and beckoned Him to come forward.

As He got up and started walking I was able to see Him now in His full splendor and majesty.
Now I realized why He seemed so familiar, This was Jesus
representing me, my Lord and my Savior.

He stoppedat the bench and softly said to the Judge "Hi Dad" and then He turned to address the court.
"Satan was correct in saying that this Person had sinned,
I won't deny any of these allegations.
And yes the wages of sins is death and this Person deserves to be punished"

Jesus took a deep breath and turned to his Father without stretched arms and proclaimed "However, I died on the Cross
so that this person might have Eternal Life and She has
accepted me as Her Savior, so this Person is mine."
My Lord continued with "This Persons name is written in the book of life and no one can snatch it from ME.

Satan still does not understand yet, this Person is not to be given justice but rather Mercy."
As Jesus sat down, He quietly paused, looked at His Father and replied "There is nothing else that needs to be done,
I've done it all"

The Judge lifted His mighty hand and slammed the gavel down and the following words bellowed from His lips --


"This Person is free -- the penalty
for His sin has already been paid in full,Case Dismissed."


<Smiley))><


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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2004, 05:59:52 AM »

Salvation is for eternity. Once your saved you can not lose your salvation. Otherwise it wouldn't be salvation but probation . Rom 5:21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

<Smiley))><
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« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2004, 06:10:01 AM »

Hi Brother Love,

Jesus has done it all as long as i abide in Him. After all the sinner in your tale abided in Jesus, he had Him as his counsel. The following scripture is part of what my belief is based on.  

Joshua 2:18 - 19 "Behold, when we come into the land you shall bind this scarlet cord in the window through which you let us down; and you shall gather into your house your father and mother, your brothers, and all your fathers household. If any one goes out of the doors of your house into the street, his blood shall be upon his head, and we shall be guiltless; but if a hand is laid upon any one who is with you in the house, his blood shall be upon our head."

This is a precursor of the blood of the Lamb just as the passover was in Exodus 12:13 "The blood shall be a sign for you, upon the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague shall fall upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt."

We as Christians even keep this day as a memorial as in Exodus 12:14 by obeying the Lords command in Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

The precursors in the Old Testament and the fulfillment of this in the New Testament all imply that i must abide in the covering of the blood of my Lord shed on the cross of calvary. If i step out of this covering my blood is upon my own head.
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