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TheComforter
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« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2004, 08:29:08 PM »

 Cool Scripture on America?

Revelation 12 is a perfect outline and the old teaching of it describing Jerusalem falls short on several levels. At the time of the writing it is said to appear in heaven not yet even upon the earth and Jerusalem was long since seen. The easiest and best way to see the woman is to realize scripture describes a woman a dragon and a bear...

There are but three super powers in recent times, can you name them?

In reading pay close attention to key elements that no scholar can ignor...

The Moon is one symbol for Christ and His works ( it is established as the moon forever. The lessor light to rule over darkness and we are the darkness ) but all things are beneath His feet.

There are two women and one is in the midst of the other and described as a great city which rules the kings of the earth. There is but one and they just told the rest of the world to stand down to prove it.

I also believe that one "must" know history to be lead to the Truth. As long as along the way they move foward and do not get stuck in the past. My point is that no matter what you "think" scripture is describing living events that fall into place for the finder and the events are found in the last days. Ever one of them.

A lot more on the Woman of many waters

The USA is not only found but is central in the events of the last days.

Come into today gang, and see what is written after you close the books. It is all around you!

If you just know where to look.

John.

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« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2004, 10:03:29 PM »

Observing how the other kingdoms rose and fell is a good lesson not to be overlooked.   I am sure the UN will play a role, I am sure computers will play a role, but I am also sure Kingdoms or Nations will play a rule, just like Daniel explains.  To ignore history, is to ignore proofs we already have to interpret future proofs yet to take place.   If America plays a role in endtime events, I am hard pressed to find it in scripture.  Personally, I see America currently standing in the way of a one world government, but that could change by a number of possibilities.

Grace and Peace!
And the EU will play a role, I believe. I know that several Europeans here, at Christians Unite believe that as well.

It could change by this election coming up as you know. Having a disbeliever in the White House, could prove to be a disaster for all Christians in the USA.
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« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2004, 11:17:56 PM »

Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Pssst.  Let me show you a secret

Gen 37:9  And he (Joseph) dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Gen 37:10  And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
Gen 37:11  And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

Joseph his 11 brothers, Father and Mother, are the patriarchs of Israel.   The Sun the Moon and 12 Stars....The woman of Revelation 12 is Israel.

If thats not enough to convince you read on...

Rev 12:2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

There can be no mistake who this manchild is....Jesus Christ.  America was not the nation in which the saviour came into the world....it was Israel.  And fitting that the symbols used to describe the woman would be symbols that Hebrews could identify with.  Jacob - the Sun, Sarah,- the Moon, and their 12 sons= the 12 Stars.   The family that the nation, (woman)Israel, came from.   Fitting America into this passage is a stretch IMO....but you are welcome to your opinions.   And all this from history too!    Wink

Quote
A lot more on the Woman of many waters

I took a peak at this thread.   While I admire some of the passion presented here, I still see no rock hard scriptural evidence for making America Mystery Babylon.

Rev 17:18  And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

This verse alone makes it hard for America to fit the mold.   We were barely able to drum up support to go to war in Iraq, much less reign over Kings of the earth.   We are not very popluar right now, and don't appear to be getting anymoreso in the near future.   Suffice it to say, there are much much better fits than America in the world at this time.   I think  mystery Babylon represents a false religion as well as physical city.  I'm not positive but I will not go into that here, because its a hot topic of recent times in these parts.   Wink   I am fairly positive its not America though.   IMO America is already on the decline.  I feel we will either be obsorbed into the one world order, or be brought to mediocrity by some un-forseen events.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2004, 12:01:01 AM »

I think  mystery Babylon represents a false religion as well as physical city.  I'm not positive but I will not go into that here, because its a hot topic of recent times in these parts.   Wink   I am fairly positive its not America though.   IMO America is already on the decline.  I feel we will either be obsorbed into the one world order, or be brought to mediocrity by some un-forseen events.

Grace and Peace!
The city is surrounded by 7 hills, and is in Europe. Later the city will be destroyed by Wormwood. I won't name the city either 2T. As far as America goes I believe that most of America will be destroyed, in WW3. when 3 nations rise up against the anti-christ.
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« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2004, 12:51:14 AM »

 Cool If only your examples would hold up.

I believe the example you gave from Genesis was nice but it in no way even claims to connect to the portion of Revelation in question. At best it would indeed be as you declared and at worst a stumbling block.

And as far as a man child that shall be caught up unto God you have forgotten of the one to be sent by the Lord from the Father. And the Lord will not rule all nations at His coming because they shall be destroyed and but one kingdom shall remain.

In wisdom and from experience I will not build nor add onto this further because first you would have to explain all the portions of your theory that fail using Israel as the woman.

The woman that rode in on the beast is indeed the USA riding in on the UN when it was even young with 7 - 10 - 7 instead of 7 - 10 - 10 in it's youth. In your example Jerusalem would become the great city and would be the whore of Babylon. (blowout)

You are going to find that the more you try to prove your theory the more you will actually disprove it.

Revelation 12 is indeed the USA.

And tell me...

This Mystery Babylon you keep mentioning, are you talking about the parable - Mystery, Babylon, The Mother etc...?

If so it is even more simple than you think, but I am not sure you are talking about that parable.

There is no portion of scripture too hot to handle and you will find that after hammering out a portion it suddenly fits perfectly to another, and another, and another in todays events and times. History will find you seeking what has been. Prophecy is for today.

Meanwhile, unto each his own and may we answer only unto Him.

(I am still smiling from you claimimg Jerusalem rules the earth, I live in the present and only DC is doing whatever they please even as we speak)

Ain't Truth grande?

Peace.
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« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2004, 08:43:06 AM »

Cool If only your examples would hold up.

SNIP

And as far as a man child that shall be caught up unto God you have forgotten of the one to be sent by the Lord from the Father. And the Lord will not rule all nations at His coming because they shall be destroyed and but one kingdom shall remain.


Sorry, I about spit up my coffee when I read this.   Ummm, have you taken a look at Rev 19:5?

Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


BTW, this is at his grand return!   Seemingly fulfills Psa 2:9


Now let me show you some history in reverse, as in the future....

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Are we agreed this will be the millinium?

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here we are, ruling and reigning with Christ
 
Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired (that is AFTER the 1,000 years), Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Behold, nation(s)!   So here we have it in black and white...Every nation is not destroyed at Christ glorious return.   Only those who worship the beast.    


Quote
In wisdom and from experience I will not build nor add onto this further because first you would have to explain all the portions of your theory that fail using Israel as the woman.

You are not alone in your view here TC.  There are many who don't see the woman of Rev 12 as Israel.   While I am open when it comes to things that are not clear, I am pretty convinced about this one because scripture backs it up.


Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

There can only be one manchild who who fulfills this prophecy along with Rev 19:15 and Psa 2:5.   There is no other who can.   Seems to me you've got a lot of reconsiling to do to have America giving birth to the King of Kings.


Quote
The woman that rode in on the beast is indeed the USA riding in on the UN when it was even young with 7 - 10 - 7 instead of 7 - 10 - 10 in it's youth. In your example Jerusalem would become the great city and would be the whore of Babylon. (blowout)

I'm still puzzled as to how you are making the women of chapter 12 the harlot of Revelation 17.   One is protected by God, yet the other is destroyed.    Huh


Quote
You are going to find that the more you try to prove your theory the more you will actually disprove it.

All the dots seem to connect nicely when we use the word as our source.


Quote
Revelation 12 is indeed the USA.

And tell me...

This Mystery Babylon you keep mentioning, are you talking about the parable - Mystery, Babylon, The Mother etc...?

Rev 17:5.


Quote
If so it is even more simple than you think, but I am not sure you are talking about that parable.

There is no portion of scripture too hot to handle and you will find that after hammering out a portion it suddenly fits perfectly to another, and another, and another in todays events and times.

Amen!


Quote
History will find you seeking what has been. Prophecy is for today.


Prophecy is for all times.  Its evidence of fulfillment in history past shows us how easy it is to missunderstand what WE think is going on in the present.  Israel missing the messiah the first time around is a prime example of that.   A crucial history lesson.   History's fulfillment of prophecy also teaches us that Gods word is the one and true Authority.


Quote
Meanwhile, unto each his own and may we answer only unto Him.

(I am still smiling from you claimimg Jerusalem rules the earth, I live in the present and only DC is doing whatever they please even as we speak)


I don't think I ever said Jeruselem rules the earth.  I just said Jerusalem was the woman of Rev 12.   Glad your smiling!  I smile a lot too.  Did you know it takes more facial muscles to frown than it does to smile?   Smiley


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Ain't Truth grande?

Amen to that brother!

Grace and Peace!
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Tim

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« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2004, 12:16:34 PM »

First may I say that this is fun, And no matter what, I can see exactly where you have gathered your belief.

Quote
Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

You are not connecting the dots. John is given a rod like unto a reed, and Christ is never cast into the winepress which is described, as there is but one that runneth to and fro. You see the winepress is the symbol of judgement and "knowing" the very things we are now discussing (and I give unto you New wine) and there is but one who has seen and shall prophecy again. Christ is the one that will cast the fruit into the press, John is the only one who knows. (and in that day not one shall know the truth) Ever wonder why the word Blod is used as coming from a press designed for wine? Written in Blood means carnal fact. And while carnal facts flow from those who thought they knew, no wine or spiritual facts are mentioned at all. Real Blood will never run bridle deep to a horse it is to say that the rider will be up to his knees in sterile facts.

Quote
BTW, this is at his grand return!   Seemingly fulfills Psa 2:9

Now we are getting somewhere! "I shall send unto thee..."
And let's look at the rest of that reference to back up what was said above about the winepress.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.


[qoute]
Now let me show you some history in reverse, as in the future....

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Are we agreed this will be the millinium?
Quote

No.

The millennium crossed time in the year 2000 and will again appear in the year 3000. And while the reign of Christ will indeed be 1 thousand years or "a" millenium it actually does not coincide with "the" millenium.

Quote
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here we are, ruling and reigning with Christ

Here we are?

You see there are those who have been good and worthy from the start, and there are those who have not, but who did come to prefer righteousness over temptation. And while the rewards for the difference will only be to have those who understand how hard it was and how righteous one would have to be to look up to the effort and stature, those who reign with the Best (The Father and the Son) are those who were not perfect but who were at all times righteous.

Rev 14:
4. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.



 
Quote
Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired (that is AFTER the 1,000 years), Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Behold, nation(s)!   So here we have it in black and white...Every nation is not destroyed at Christ glorious return.   Only those who worship the beast.

Oh you are good, but again it does not hold up.

And He said unto them, " Go not out of the city ".

And you are refering to the time of judgement and afterwards when His are gathered and separated from the rest of the world, and there is nothing they (those left out) can do about it. They know because the second death (which is the death of the spiritual wisdom man has long enjoyed) comes just after they know they do not have a chance. Imagine the outrage and anger to finally know you are not and will never be one of the wheat. The only time this is certain is at the end of the 1000 years when you become as the carnal man and lose the wisdom of the spirit that brought Adam to his feet naming and knowing and different from all the rest. Of course during the reign there are still carnal men outside the city doing everything they can to get in, but they are own their own. And if you knew "God" was right next door would you understand why evil was in check for a very long time?
 

Quote
You are not alone in your view here TC.  There are many who don't see the woman of Rev 12 as Israel.   While I am open when it comes to things that are not clear, I am pretty convinced about this one because scripture backs it up.

Actually it does not.

Israel saw it's inhabitants and it's honour cast unto the furthest nation to return at the end of days. Sometimes you can understand best by simple wisdom. Pick up a globe and run a sword through it and see where it comes out.

Quote
Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

There can only be one manchild who who fulfills this prophecy along with Rev 19:15 and Psa 2:5.   There is no other who can.   Seems to me you've got a lot of reconsiling to do to have America giving birth to the King of Kings.

I like that.

But again not knowing is the hardest part of seeing. You seem to intentionally overlook the coming of the one to prepare the way. From two angels with a sickle, all the way to prophecy before many peoples and nations and tongues and kings (here is where I mention the hint that the waters are many peoples and tongues etc, and she rules over the kings...) Elias truely shall come first, and they knew He meant John? Where have you put all of the scripture that reveals the events prior to the return of the Lord?

A "little book" - or - another book was opened...

Learn thee the parable of a fig tree, while ( His Branch )?

Learn thee a parable of the fig tree, while ( Her Branch )?

This is no mistake. It is one of the biggest hints provided by the Lord of the meaning. He sends him from the Father, he is borne unto the woman of many waters. And yes, while it may be hard to understand and believe I can share the biggest hint of all. There are three that bear record of heaven, and the Revelation of Christ is given unto John - who bear record. And when the Comforter comes whom I shall send unto thee - The Comforter is the Holy Ghost - Blasphemy of Christ is forgiven but blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is not - I can not figure out what you have done with large portions of scripture that will clearly show you that the one to come first and to Rock the world is not Christ. Of course sadly most of the rocking is to make them mad. Not on purpose but who are you to tell me my belief is faulty? (You understand) But what if one comes and tells it like it is meant and the entire world says NO WAY! And then Christ comes - like a thief - and says it was Truth. How embarrassing and hard to deny...

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I'm still puzzled as to how you are making the women of chapter 12 the harlot of Revelation 17.   One is protected by God, yet the other is destroyed.    Huh

Two women. Not the same woman. In 12 the beast is identified and in 17 again. In 12 the beast wants the child and makes war with the remnant of the womans seed. (The people are the seed of the Nation) In 17 the great city is stained with the blood of that seed, drunken. And the city is doomed because it turns it's back on it's own. The people...

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Babylon - DC - Iraq - It doesn't matter as they both have the same king in the time appointed...( don't they? Who rules in Iraq now -  really? )



Quote
Rev 17:5.

Now we get to have some fun!!!

Remember this is a name on the forehead. And on the forehead usually means on the mind. The woman - city - wants to stop the man child who is caught up unto God because with what he can reveal and say, he can stop the plans and deceptions of the city - the other woman is the target of the attack by the hand of the beast that will profit from the city getting it's way - the UN (happening now by the way, but not done yet)

Anyway. Back to the parable:

MYSTERY, - the first word and let me point out the comma. It is on purpose and very important!

BABYLON THE GREAT, - another comma, and the second word of the parable.

The MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH - mother is that which gives birth, so we are looking for what gives birth to the items described.

Let's see if you can answer the parable with a little help.

The MYSTERY of ? (not the woman but the entire Mystery)

BABYLON THE GREAT - in this portion of the tale is babylon coming or going? "Great" is to tie in the GREAT city that falls and goes up in smoke.

The MOTHER - what gives birth to things and usually uses naughty girls to promote it's wares?

If you get the first and last word of the three the middle will fill itself in. That is the Lord's doing and it is marvellous in our eyes.

What is on the womans mind as she goes down?

Thank you for the chance to try your patience and demeanor above the trial of belief. It is rare to find one who does not instantly go ballistic if their take is challenged.

In your service.

John.

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« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2004, 02:06:09 PM »

John....all I can say is  Huh Huh Huh

I like talking about this stuff too, and agree it is fun.  But I must confess I am completely confused as to where you are getting some of your teachings from.   Please don't take that offensively....I just can't seem to get there from here if you catch my drift?   I am only catching bits of peaces of truth I recognise from scripture in some of your points, and the rest I have no idea what you are talking about....lol  Sorry, but just being honest.

Let me ask you this.  What background is your faith, or what Church?  This might help me some.   Do you believe Christ was the only begotten son of God, come to save us from our sins?

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2004, 02:57:35 PM »

I'm not much of a biblical scholar on the endtimes.  I've always sorta held the opinion that Jesus will come for me someday, or I'll die and go to Him someday, and whatever happens after that I'll just get a birdseye view of.  Grin

But I gotta go with 2nd Timothy on this one.  You don't find America in the endtime prophecies.  You do find Israel, Babylon, Rome (which, BTW, was comprised of basically every country in the EU), and an unnamed nation from the north.  Seeing as how we aren't in any of these scenarios, and seeing as how we're huge and in everyone's current scenario...seems to me we just won't be around when the endtimes are fully here...

Just a thought...
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« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2004, 04:06:00 PM »

 Cool Sounds like a lock up.

What you are saying is that you can not see what I am saying in what "you" believe. But to each his own. I myself do not talk about me and if tagging the topic with a certain religion will help you somehow you are strange indeed. Thanks for the walk as it helps me to see the manner in which others have collected and placed what is written. I fully and in advance understand that scripture has revealled just how many would know the Word.

As for me I will stand in judgement for my works as they do follow me.

As we all will.

In your service!

Ancient and Honourable, John West.
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« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2004, 08:01:49 PM »

Cool Sounds like a lock up.

What you are saying is that you can not see what I am saying in what "you" believe.


No, what I am saying is cannot see what you are saying in the framework of what scripture teaches.  I don't believe, the endtime view one holds has any bearing on salvation.   However I do believe how one views salvation could deffinately affect ones view of endtime.    Which I why I asked what you believe as far as salvation.  Understand?  After all we have never spoken before and Im not really sure what you believe, so I thought I would ask.

Christ took upon himself my judgment, and by that grace though faith I will stand.  As for works, well, I'm HIS workmanship and will walk as He guides to good works.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2004, 01:01:45 AM »

Quote
But I gotta go with 2nd Timothy on this one.  You don't find America in the endtime prophecies.  You do find Israel, Babylon, Rome (which, BTW, was comprised of basically every country in the EU), and an unnamed nation from the north.  Seeing as how we aren't in any of these scenarios, and seeing as how we're huge and in everyone's current scenario...seems to me we just won't be around when the endtimes are fully here...

I have to agree - I don't see "the United States" anywhere in prophesy, which means, to me, the USA will become 'insignificant’ (at best) during the end times.  Which, by the way, may be just one election away…
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« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2004, 01:24:13 AM »

Some of us will see Him sooner then others.
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« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2004, 01:34:25 AM »

 8)And He said unto me...

John.

And I said, "Here am I."

And He said unto me. "Rise and measure them which are within, and them which are without measure not."

Peace, and have a nice day.

John.
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« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2004, 02:01:51 PM »

Some of us will see Him sooner then others.


Hmmm, I might be wrong, but that almost sounds like a threat Reba.....LOL  Planning on sending someone a bit early are we?   Cheesy

j/k

Grace and Peace!
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Enslaved in service to Christ
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