America's role in the end times..

[Wreck N Sow]

Hi Bronze
Been checkin on that scripture from Daniel. Are you sure thats not speakin of Jesus.

[Bronzesnake]

Hi Bronze
Been checkin on that scripture from Daniel. Are you sure thats not speakin of Jesus.

Hi W&S

Yes, I'm positive.
There are corroborating verses that should make it clear for you my friend.

Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 
   
    Mat 24:14   And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  
   
    Mat 24:15   When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  
   
    Mat 24:16   Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  

W&S quote...

Are there any others. The reason i ask is ive seen many scriptures(not sure where) that say when they say peace, sudden destruction.

The verse you are talking of is part of a pre-trib rapture verse.

   1Th 5:3   For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Who shall not escape? Escape what?
   
    1Th 5:4   But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.  

OK, so here it's apparent that Christians (bretheren) will not be overtaken.
   
    1Th 5:5   Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Here we discover who will not escape...Children of darkness, unbelievers.
   
    1Th 5:6   Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.  
   
    1Th 5:7   For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.  
   
    1Th 5:8   But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.  
   
    1Th 5:9   For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,  
 Here it becomes clear what we will escape...God's wrath.

[Wreck N Sow]

Hi Bronze
If ya really do believe in this rapsure thing, i have a few questions that need answering in apologetics. I asked that projax guy and he had no answers. Hope to see ya there.

[Bronzesnake]

Hi Bronze
If ya really do believe in this rapsure thing, i have a few questions that need answering in apologetics. I asked that projax guy and he had no answers. Hope to see ya there.

Done my friend.

[TheComforter]

Ouch!

That's quite a blanket statement my friend.

Of course not all Americans, but rightly divided all evil "period" shall suffer for their unrighteous works.

[Seven_Tides]

Quote from Son of God yesterday at 2:42:31am:

i agree, americans are the anti christ. i hope they all burn in hell for there sins.

So I suppose you aren't from the US. Well SOG, are you
from Canada?

Quote from the Comforter yesterday at 1:28:18pm:

Ouch!

That's quite a blanket statement my friend.

Of course not all Americans, but rightly divided all evil "period" shall suffer for their unrighteous works.

American Government?

Hey, the G7. Could the G7 be the seven heads of Daniel's
Vision? Just a possibility.

[kinring]

1Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1Th 5:11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
 

[TheComforter]

  Much to learn in little time.

Revelation 13 discussion at TCForums

Seven Heads of Daniel - I must check that one...

In your service.

[Shammu]

Much to learn in little time.

Revelation 13 discussion at TCForums

Seven Heads of Daniel - I must check that one...

In your service.

I'm feeling lazy tonight, because of a hard day.

The Identity of the 7 Heads and the 10 Horns on the Beast of Revelation 13
by Phillip Goodman

7 Heads and 10 Horns on the Beast: What Are They?

The Beast of Revelation 13 is described as follows:
   And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. Revelation 13:1
   The Beast of Revelation represents both a king and a kingdom, But the full meaning of the Beast can only be understood to the extent that we can understand the meaning of the features of the Beast, particularly the 7 Heads and the 10 Horns, which are the most prominent and consistent features according to both Revelation 13 & 17.

Can We Expect An Answer?

   We have what amounts to a prophetic and historic template in our quest for the identity of the 7 Heads and 10 Horns. I shall call it the "Greek Template." In Daniel 7 & 8 there are prophecies related to the Greek Empire. In the Daniel 7 prophecy, verse 6 tells of a Beast with 4 Heads. The prophecy in chapter 8 tells of a Beast having a large broken horn, followed by 4 Horns, followed by a single horn. Conservative prophecy scholars are virtually united in recognizing that both prophecies describe the post-Alexandrian Grecian Empire of the late fourth century BC. We shall find also that the Heads and Horns of the Revelation Beast relate to empires and rulers. Great light is shed on their meaning by the "Greek Template."
   Since most (but not all) of both of those prophecies about the Greek Empire have been fulfilled in history, and since the two prophecies combined apply the symbols of Heads and Horns to the unfolding history of that empire, then it seems reasonable to apply the Biblical and historic information gleaned from these prophecies as a basic "template" to aid in the identification of the Heads and Horns of the Beast of Revelation.
   Furthermore, since all of the prophecies of the Bible which have already been fulfilled, from those forecasting the fate of nations and empires to the Messianic prophecies, have been fulfilled just as precisely as predicted, then we should expect to find the same in both the past historical record and the historical "stage-setting" for future fulfillment. The Bible virtually guarantees as much when it says,
   "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'... Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it. Isaiah 46:9-11
We should expect this prophetic precision to be applied specifically to empires and emperors and kings and kingdoms:

And it is He who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings... Daniel 2:21

    Here is my working thesis. The prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, which present us with such a prominent display of these symbolic "Heads and Horns" to reveal future history, portray for the most part the prophetic unfolding of history in broad and obvious strokes. For instance the statue in Daniel 2, to date, spans 2550 years of history in a relatively few short verses. Therefore we should expect that these predictions would also be broad and obvious in a scan, or "birds-eye" view, of history. Thus, the working out of these prophecies are more likely to rise to the surface in a survey, rather than a detailed study, of world history. And indeed, they do.

What Is The Meaning Of The Heads

   "After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it." Daniel 7:6

   As previously mentioned, most students of prophecy are agreed that this beast represents the kingdom of Greece after it was divided into four parts following the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BC. This agrees with the prophecy in Daniel 8 which also shows the four fold division of the Greek Empire in the form of 4 Horns on a goat, and specifically identifies Greece (vv. 21-22). In the case of chapter 7's 4-Headed leopard, then, the Heads are kingdoms.

   As we survey the four kingdoms of both Daniel 2's statue and Daniel 7's beasts-that is, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome- we find other references which connect the Heads to kingdoms. Where Revelation 17:9-10 says specifically that the 7 Heads of the Beast are "seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings," we can let scripture interpret scripture by going to Jeremiah 51:25 and find that the "mountain" described in that passage is actually a kingdom!-specifically Babylon. Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys the whole earth," declares the LORD, "And I will stretch out My hand against you, And roll you down from the crags And I will make you a burnt out mountain.
   The same result is found when checking out the symbol of the "great mountain" that struck the statue of Daniel 2 and destroyed it. The official interpretation that is given shows it to be the victorious and literal kingdom of Christ in verse 44. Thus the "Mountains" and "Kings" in Revelation 17:910 are seen as Mountain-Kingdoms elsewhere in scripture, with the further connection in the Revelation 17 passage to "Heads."
    We continue our search and find a definite identification of beast Heads with beast kingdoms in Daniel 7.
   Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast... and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head... Daniel 7:19-20
   Connect this verse with its angelic interpretation in verse 24, which says "As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise..."
   There is a very important disclosure here. What is the meaning-rather, the "exact meaning"- of the 10 Horns that come out of the Head of the beast (Rome)? The answer is given. The Horns are 10 kings that arise out of "this kingdom." Whereas in verse 20 the Horns come out of the beast (obviously his Head), in the explanation the Horns (10 kings) come out of a "kingdom." The Head and the kingdom are equated.

A Consistent Identification Of Heads With Mountains With Kingdoms

   In summary, what have we found? When we look at the four kingdoms of Daniel 7 (with a total of 7 Heads- count them!), we find that Babylon is viewed as a Mountain-Kingdom, Greece has split into 4 Head-Kingdoms, Rome has ten kings coming out of a Head-Kingdom, and the whole lineup is followed by the great Mountain-Kingdom of Christ. That is four of the five kingdoms (4 earthly kingdoms, followed by Christ's kingdom), and six of the 7 Heads seen in Daniel 7!
   Therefore, in revisiting Revelation 17:9-10, a much clearer picture emerges: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings...
   The meaning of the Heads is that they are Mountain-Kingdoms-that is, dominant kingdoms- upon the landscape of world history. The 7 Heads are 7 Mountain Kingdoms.
   CONSIDER THIS: The 4 Kingdoms of Daniel 7 have 7 Heads. They are Babylon, Persia and Greece-which includes 2 former empires, Egypt & Syria (Assyria), & 1 future empire, Turkey (Ottoman Empire)-& Rome. All reappear under the 'umbrella' of a re-emergent Rome in the End Time.

What Is The Identification Of The 7 Kingdoms?

   Remember when we said to count the Heads of the four beasts of Daniel 7? Here is another way to look at it. Take this passage from Revelation 13:1-"And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads"- insert the word "four beasts" in place of "a beast," and mentally paste it at the end of Daniel 7, verse 3. Here's how it would read:

"And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another. And I saw [four beasts] coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads..."

   Now, when you take this description of the single beast of Revelation and apply it to the four beast of Daniel, and then read the ensuing descriptions of those four beast, you find four beasts "coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads." Again, count them. And remember that Revelation 13 applies certain features of the "lion," the "bear," the "leopard," and the 10-Horned fourth beast of Daniel to its own unified beast. The utilization of these same features confirms that the same 7 Heads of Daniel's four beasts are present in Revelation's unified beast.
   Therefore, since we know the identification of the Head-Kingdoms of Daniel's four beast, we can apply them to the Revelation beast. The 7 Heads of Revelation's beast are the Head of the Lion (confirmed by "his mouth like the mouth of a lion," v.2), the Bear (required by "his feet like those of a bear," v.2), the Leopard (with his 4 Heads dominating the beast, explaining why the beast "was like a leopard), and Daniel's 10-Horned Beast (since the 10 Horns are said to be on a single head, Daniel 7:20).
(to be contuined.)

[Shammu]

The "Mirror Image" Of The Daniel & Revelation Beasts Images

   It is clear that the Revelation beast is a mirror image of Daniel's four beast. Daniel's four beasts-kingdoms have been combined into the unified beast of Revelation at the end time. But that is exactly what the prophecies teach. The world's kingdoms will unite into a single Antichrist-kingdom at the end of history. Whereas Daniel foresees his four kingdoms as a series of four snapshots through time, Revelation portrays the same 7-Headed kingdoms united into a single snapshot at the end of time. This is further confirmed in Daniel 2:35. There the four kingdoms depicted in the statue survive in some form throughout history, all four destined to be destroyed at the same time at the end of history.
   Since the Revelation beast is a mirror image of Daniel's four beasts, then it follows that we can learn the specific national identities of Revelation's 7-Headed, united kingdom from its "reflected" image in Daniel's 7-Headed, multiple, pre-unification kingdoms, especially when we take stock of our "Greek Template."

The Identity Of The 7 Beast-Heads Of Revelation

   CONSIDER THIS: There are 4 beasts in Daniel 7. One of them (the leopard/Greece) has 4 heads. We can surmise the other 3 each have 1 head-a total of 7 heads. Revelation 13 shows a composite beast, which includes all 4 of the Daniel 7 beasts. This beast also has 7 heads, & is said to look "like a leopard," which, as a 4-headed beast, would dominate the appearance of the Revelation beast (along with the 10 horns). Therefore, the 7 heads on the Revelation beast are the same 7 heads that are on the Daniel 7 beasts, & the identity of those heads (kingdoms) are known.
   It is generally accepted, with good reason, that the four beasts in both Daniel 2 and 7 represent the kingdoms of Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome, in that order, reflecting the order of their appearance. That accounts for four of the 7 Heads. The other 3 Heads are found on the Greek beast. Who are these 3 Head-Kingdoms? Here, fulfilled prophecy, or history, comes to our aid. After the death of Alexander the Great, as many as 13 sub-kingdoms and fiefdoms within his vast empire vied for power. But four dominant sub-kingdoms rose head and shoulders above the rest. These are the 4 Heads of Daniel 7's Grecian beast, and are also represented by the 4 Horns of Daniel 8. These kingdoms, using their geographic and political modern place-names, were,

1. Greece
2. Turkey
3. Syria
4. Egypt

   Therefore, the 7 Heads of the Revelation beast, being essentially a mirror image of the 7 Heads of the Daniel 7 beasts, are to be identified as follows:

1. Babylon- the "lion"
2. Persia- the "bear"
3. Greece- the "4-Headed leopard"
4. Turkey
5. Syria (Assyria)
6. Egypt
7. Rome

   All of these kingdoms are bound together by three common denominators: They were absorbed into the Roman Empire, they "tread under foot" not only Jerusalem but also the heart of the full Abrahamic-promised land which is Mesopotamia, and they bullied the Jews throughout history. At the end of history they will be united into the single "beast" kingdom of Revelation 13 and 17 to do likewise.

Where Are The 7-Heads-Or Mountain-Kingdoms-
Located On The Timeline Of History?

   Daniel 7's four beasts-kingdoms rule linearly, one after the other successively through time according to Daniel 7:4-7. And, from Daniel's prophetic point in history, there are four and only four human kingdoms predicted to dominate (remember, these 7 Heads are Mountain-Kingdoms) Mesopotamia and the land of Israel before the return of Christ and the establishment of the eternal fifth kingdom.
   First, the 4 human Mountain-Kingdoms,
   'These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth, Daniel 7:17
   Then the 5th, Eternal Mountain-Kingdom,
   But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come. Daniel 7:18

   The Roman Empire, the fourth kingdom, would continue to exist in some form until its fatal encounter with the Kingdom of Christ, the fifth and final kingdom. But here we encounter, in Revelation 17, what at first sight seems to be a problem with the chronological account of the 7 Head-Kingdoms. That passage says,

... they are seven kings [or kingdoms, as we have seen; see Daniel 2:38-39 for king-kingdom dual reference); five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. Revelation 17:10

   Since the kingdom of Rome is John's reference in this passage, and since we have identified the 7 Head-Kingdoms with those of the 7 Heads in Daniel 7, then if we apply the 5 have fallen (before Rome and John's time) to the Daniel 7 passage, we find that we actually have 6 Heads in Daniel 7 (Babylon, Persia, and the 4 Grecian) that existed before the Roman Headed beast. The solution to this dilemma is again found in our "Greek Template."
   First, the Grecian beast (the leopard) is a single kingdom, even though it has multiple Heads (remember, Daniel 7 says there are only four kingdoms, Greece being one). Therefore, the 4 Heads of Greece are sub-kingdoms within a larger kingdom. The prophecy of the Greek Empire, as we've seen, parallels history in this respect. And two of those 4 kingdoms had previously in history qualified as Mesopotamian-ruling, Jew-dominating empires, or Mountain-Kingdoms. Egypt and Syria (Assyria) had already fulfilled that role prior to the rise of Greece. This accounts for the "5 have fallen" prior to Rome:

"Five have fallen"

1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Persia
5. Greece

   Revelation 17:10 continues on to say "1 is." That of course was Rome. But notice that it continues on to say "1 has not yet come, and when he ["he"= king-kingdom identification] comes, he must remain a little while." Who is this 7th Head-Kingdom that would be destined to rise to Mountain-Kingdom status after the Roman Empire?
   Back to the "Greek Template," where we find that the 4th Head-Kingdom, unaccounted for thus far, is Turkey. Turkey at the time that John wrote the "5 have fallen, 1 is, 1 will come" passage had never entered the elite club of Mesopotamian-ruling, Jew-persecuting Mountain-Kingdoms. But later it did- as the super-kingdom known as the Ottoman Empire. They were [in 15-1600s] not only the most important Islamic empire, but the largest & most powerful European state as well.
 
   [Ottoman Persecution of Jews] World War I almost killed the Zionist movement... the Ottoman Empire sided with the Bermans, portending calamity for the Jews. To the Palestinian Jews it spelled physical disaster. Every Jew suspected of sympathy with the Allies- the knowledge of a little English was considered proof of sympathy- was hanged; 12,000 Jews were deported because they were not Turkish [Ottoman] citizens; and Zionism itself was declared illegal."
   And that is exactly what is required by the Revelation 17:10 phrase "1 will come," or, more precisely, "one has not yet come, and when he comes, he must remain a little while." Turkey is the Mountain-Kingdom that "will come," the 7th Head of the beast of Revelation. Throughout the sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries, the Ottomans were not only the most important Islamic empire, but the largest and most powerful European state as well. It was the greatest of the modern states."
   The rise of the Ottoman Turkish state from a regional power in Asia Minor in the mid-15th century to the greatest empire in Europe and the Middle East by the mid-16th was a dramatic one.
   But how can this be when Daniel's fourth beast is the final kingdom? Since Daniel's forth kingdom is Rome, this would also mean that Revelation's sixth Head (Rome) will be the final kingdom! (John looked backward from his perspective in the time of Rome to include not only Daniel's first three kingdoms in reverse time- Greece, Persia, and Babylon, but before Babylon was Egypt and Assyria; Daniel was looking forward beginning with Babylon)
   The answer is again found in the Grecian beast (the leopard of Daniel 7). In that passage you have 4 Heads-Kingdoms. Three have shrunk back over time to lose their former dominion as Mountain-Kingdoms (Greece under Alexander, Egypt and Assyria), but not their existence. Therefore, Greece is portrayed as a single Mountain-Kingdom subdivided into 4 parts. It never becomes 4 separate kingdoms. Greece is a single kingdom enveloping 3 additional subkingdoms which still retain their identity- in both prophecy and history, by the way- as Grecian. The picture before us is one of 4 Heads within a single kingdom.
   The same will be true with Rome. The Roman Empire, in both prophecy and history, also went, and will go, through a similar process of fragmenting and dividing, while never losing its identity or aspiration as the Roman Empire. Here is that splintering process of the Roman Empire that will persist right up to its final form as a Revived Roman Empire controlled by 10 Kings: First, the great Mountain-Kingdom was divided into eastern and western parts, as depicted in the two Roman "legs" on the statue of Daniel 2.
   "In AD 293, Emperor Diocletian decided.to shift the center of the Roman Empire to the east. The new state, [was] known as the Byzantine, or Eastern Roman Empire. Then the western half divided into 5 parts split up among the Germanic tribes who continued to carry the mantle of Rome. The German rulers saw themselves as the heirs of Rome.
    Subsequently Rome continued to retain a semblance of its identity as "Rome" during the era of the great Frankish ruler Charlemagne. Charlemagne unified western Europe & recreated an equivalent of the old Roman Empire...[his coronation by Pope Leo III] made him legally heir to the western Roman emperors..
(to be contuined.)

[Shammu]

The Roman tradition of unity had never completely died out. Pope [Leo III] hailed Charlemagne as "Emperor of the Romans. Thus was revived a title which, changed later to "Holy Roman Emperor," was to last until 1806.
The next stage in the perpetuation of the identity of "Rome" in the western leg came through the Holy Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire was a successor state to the empire founded in 800 by Charlemagne, who revived the title of Roman Emperor in the West."
   The very name of the holy Roman Empire recalled the unity which ancient Rome gave to the classical world fifteen centuries earlier.
   The incipient Roman Empire continues today in its western leg in the form of the European Union, with the same 5 nations cited earlier continuing to dominate its existence. These 5 nations, Spain, Britain, France, Italy, and Germany, duplicate in history what the 5 toes on the western leg of the Daniel 2 statue foresaw- 5 dominant kings. Today in the European Union the majority of the voting block in a weighted formula in the European Parliament belongs to precisely these five countries. In the East, Rome retained its identity as the Mountain-Kingdom (Roman Empire) through the Byzantine Empire. In AD 293, Emperor Diocletian decided, for military and administrative reasons, to shift the center of the Roman Empire to the east. The new state, known as the Byzantine, or Eastern Roman, Empire.  The Roman emperor Constantine named his capital [at Byzantium] New Rome. Throughout their history the Byzantines described themselves as Romans, and saw their empire as the continuation, without break, of the Roman Empire. Then, after a thousand years, the Byzantine Empire gave way to- the Arab-Mohammedans? No. As great as that Islamic Empire was, it was never absorbed into the geographic, political, or cultural environs of the Roman Empire. The Arabs did not qualify as the 7th Head.
   Did the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire give way to the other super-kingdom that arose after the glory days of ancient Rome, that of the Mongols. No. For neither did the Mongols qualify as the 7th Head. They too were alien to the Roman sphere of dominance.
   In the Eastern Roman Empire, the successor state to Byzantium was Turkey. Not Turkey as we know it today, but Turkey in its glorious reign as the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire qualified indeed as the 7th Head- the 7th Mountain-Kingdom!
   The Turks [Ottomans] were among the great imperial powers of history. Theirs was the last in time and the greatest in extent of the four Middle Eastern empires, following those of the Persians, the Romans, and the Arabs, the Ottoman state was above all else a universal empire. The Ottoman Empire was one of the largest political structures that the western part of the world had known since the Roman Empire disintegrated: it ruled eastern Europe, western Asia and most of the Maghrib, and held together lands with very different political traditions, many ethnic groups- Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, Armenians, Turks and Arabs, and various religious communities,  Sunni and Shi'i Muslims, Christians of all the historic Churches, and Jews. It maintained its rule over most of them for 400 years or so, and over some of them for as many as 600 years.
     One and only one kingdom rose to Mountain-Kingdom status after the primacy of the original Roman Empire, and, importantly, within the geographic sphere of that empire, to carry forward the tradition of Rome in the eastern leg- and that is the Turkish-Ottomans. The Ottoman Empire inherited the mantle of the Eastern Roman Empire- the Byzantine Empire- and carried it forward into the 20th century. In 1453 it the Ottoman Empire absorbed what was left of the Byzantine Empire. The Ottomans had changed from a nomadic horde to the heirs of the most ancient surviving empire Byzantium of Europe. The Ottoman's achievement was to reunite the Byzantine empire under a single sovereign. The Ottoman empire, which reached its height under Suleiman the Magnificent, was far stronger than any European state. They were the missing link among the former Mountain-Kingdoms in the 4 Heads of Greece because their hey-day had "not yet come, and when he comes, he must remain a little while," 470 years to be exact. Turkey- the placeless 4th Head on the Grecian beast of Daniel 7- achieved its Mountain-Kingdom rank to the level of the other 3 Grecian Heads later in history, causing it to become the 7th Head of the Revelation beast. (Note: The issue of the beast himself, who is "also an eighth Head, and is one of the seven, "Revelation 17:11, is answered in depth in my book the Assyrian Connection.

Does Rome Continue To Exist

    As we have seen, history follows in the fore steps of prophecy, testifying that the eastern leg of Rome itself continued on from the Byzantine to the Ottoman Empire. No Bible believer should be surprised that these various divisions and fragmentations of the Roman Empire show up in history. For they were first recorded in prophecy.
    The statue of Daniel 2, in its Roman "legs," which represent the first division into east and west Rome during the fifth century, continues to shatter into "iron and clay" parts, not only in the feet stage, but in the "toes" stage, and then further into 10 toes.
    These dividing stages are also evident in Daniel's beasts in chapter 7, where Rome sprouts 10 king-kingdoms matching the 10 toes of chapter 2, and then further sprouts an 11 king-kingdom (the Antichrist) matching the "8th Head" of Revelation 17:11. But in both Daniel and Revelation, Rome- the 4th beast and the 6th Head-never ceases to be Rome.
    We see then, that from what we know of the Greek 4-Headed "Template," the rise of a subsequent Head-or Mountain-Kingdom- as a sub-sector of the Roman Empire, is not only a cut out of the Grecian mold of Daniel chapter 7, but is a fact of history. The Ottoman Empire did not replace Rome. It perpetuated the eastern half-the "Grecian," territory and culture- of Rome. The Ottoman Empire filled the void left by the decline and fall of the Byzantine Empire.

   The Ottoman Empire, the 7th Head, the 7th Mountain-Kingdom, existed within the fragmented but perpetual Roman Empire as both a phase of the old empire and a link to the coming Revived Roman Empire, just as the 4 Head-Kingdoms of Greece perpetuated that empire as a single "beast-kingdom." The Ottoman Empire did not supplant Daniel's 4th and final Mountain-Kingdom- or Revelation's 6th and final Mountain-Kingdom. The prophecies do not allow it. History does not support it.

[Shammu]

Who Are The 10 Horns?

   We have seen that from early on, the breakup of the Roman Empire resulted in 5 dominant states emerging in the west from the Germanic invaders.  There appeared in the western empire what has been called a 'horizontal' continuing division' which was to remain in other forms until our own time. In Germany, England, France, Spain and northern Italy, barbarian kings ruled, although the sense of belonging to the Roman Empire still existed.
   By the ninth century, in the treaties of Verdun and Meersen, these 5 sub-kingdoms, matching the 5 toes of Daniel 2's western leg, had taken on the rough shape of modern Europe.
   The unity which Rome had imposed was shattered forever. In the West, the Germans had set up new kingdoms- Visigoths in Spain; Franks in Gaul [which, under the Treaty of Verdun in 843, became the forerunner states of France and Germany]; Angles and Saxons in Britain; Lombards in Italy. At Meersen (870 AC), the familiar outlines of Europe began to take shape, and thus these five nations came to be the dominant nations of Europe today. They are,

1. Britain
2. France
3. Spain
4. Italy
5. Germany

   The dominance of these realms in Europe since the breakup of the Roman Empire, and their eventual evolution into modern states which still exert their collective will on the European Union, fits perfectly well the historical correspondence we would expect. They have set the stage in the western leg for the emergence the 10 Horn-Kings predicted to rise at the end time. But what about the eastern leg? Which nation-states will fulfill the 5 remaining Horns (or toes) in the eastern part of the revived Roman Empire?
   First, the 4 Heads on the Grecian leopard in Daniel 7 and the 4 Horns on the Grecian Goat in Daniel 8 refer to the same 4 breakout kingdoms in post-Alexandrian Greece. Thus, both the Heads and the Horns designated the same 4 sub-kingdoms- Greece, Turkey, Syria, and Egypt. Heads and Horns are used interchangeably in the prophecies. Since the emphasis in both Daniel and Revelation is on the eastern half of the Roman Empire (that is, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Turkey, all playing a prominent role in the visions of the final Roman beasts, were enshrouded within the eastern realm of Rome), then surely these beast Heads will be represented in their end time stage among the 10 Horns.
   Therefore, it is a reasonable expectation, based on the "Greek Template," that the Horns in the east (toes on the eastern leg) will represent those end-time kings who rule over the later day versions of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Turkey.
   Daniel 8 presupposes just such a configuration. In that passage it is predicted that the 4 Horns of the Grecian goat (again, Greece, Turkey, Syria, and Egypt) will have an encore reign at the end time, even playing a major role in the rise of the Antichrist .The passage refers to "the latter period of their reign." "And the broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms [Greece, Turkey, Syria, & Egypt] which will arise from his nation, although not with his power. And in the latter period of their rule..." Daniel 8:22-23
   CONSIDER THIS: It is AT THE END TIME THE 4 GRECIAN KINGDOMS REAPPEAR - "understand that the vision concerns the time of the end...I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end... In the latter part of their reign...but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future." Dan 8:17, 19, 23, 26
   Amazingly, these very same kingdoms-Greece, Turkey, Syria, and Egypt- were the dominant breakout kingdoms at the demise of none other than the Ottoman Empire. By the end of World War I Syria, Egypt, and Iraq emerged semi-independent under the British and French mandate system. The wrap up of World War II assured the final status of all of them as sovereign states. The Ottomans conceded Greek independence in 1832. In 1920 the Ottoman empire was dismembered: Syria... Lebanon... Iraq... Palestine... the Hejaz and Armenia... Anatolia... Turkey
   In 1923, by the Treaty of Lausanne, Turkey surrendered only her remaining non-Turkish territories (chiefly Arab [Syria, Iraq, Egypt, etc.] ) but retained her Turkish areas: Constantinople and Asia Minor. [modern Turkey] Turkey, no longer an Empire, was now reduced to a national state.
    All of this is clearly far more than mere historical coincidence: Let's take stock. Ancient Rome splits off in its eastern sector as Byzantine Rome, with Byzantium's mantle passing to the Ottoman Turks (as the 7th Head), which then splinters into dominant states in Greece, Turkey, Syria, and Egypt among several lesser realms.
    Add to this lineup of eastern "Horns" those of the required Babylon and Iran (Persia), and there emerges 6 eastern Horns. Isn't this one more than the required 5 Horns, or toes, in the eastern sector of the emerging Revived Roman Empire? Not at all. It's time to count again. Count the Horns in Daniel 7's passage.
   And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up... Daniel 7:20
   There are 10 Horns- plus an 11th- who it turns out comes us subsequently, but contemporaneously, and emerges as the Antichrist.
    Thus, there are in fact 10 Horns, plus an 11th, representing in prophecy and in both past and emerging history the following nation-states which will make up the political constituencies of an expanded European Union, or Revived Roman Empire. Represented among these 10 Horns are the 7 Heads, or Mountain-Kingdoms (reckoning the Roman Head as represented in the western leg nations) which join into a single union of nations to form the beast of Revelation:

1. Britain
2. France
3. Spain
4. Italy
5. Germany
6. Greece
7. Turkey
8. Syria
9. Egypt
10. Iraq
11. Iran

     The political and geographic landscape looks very familiar today for anyone who has studied these prophecies- He is the God who "removes kings and establishes kings..." Daniel 2:21
http://focusonjerusalem.com/theidentityofthe7.html

[TheComforter]

  Wheew that is a lot!

The problem is that it is easily destroyed by the Truth.

From the name of Blasphemy, to the simple fact that all of these kingdoms you have taken the time to interject into a dead beast, have no power today. There is but one Super Power and one Organization that will soon rival it.

I suggest you try again and see what World Order does include the many powers you have described and also learn when scripture has actually described different things.

The seven kings are in and of themselves separate and serve to mark a section of time early in the development of the World order. But they are also hinted about with the tale of a bear with three ribs in it's teeth. You know five have fallen, and the eighth is of the seven. Five from eight equals three? Bear? Check your history a little closer to now.

The test is to see if we can.

Three examples of the one that was, and was not, and yet is.

1.
The UN was a world power.
The UN was told to stand down by the US.
The UN will soon be very rich by loans through the Monetary fund and World Bank and with the slightest bobble in International currency will rule currency exchange and value. The US made a critical mistake when they shipped their industrial base out of the country. It made then vulnerable.

2.
After five of the leaders had come and gone, we can find a time frame as of late when Russia had a ruler who got sick. He was the sixth and he got very ill. He was replaced by another temporarily until he was well and he then returned to power. Russia then failed and even banks closed starting a wave of troubles they have not yet recovered from completely.

3. The computer was the largest and most actively growing industry prior to 2000. The millenium scare almost killed it. Afterwards it has grown less but has become firmly rooted in American as well as the worlds culture and means.

All three of these are found within the portion of the tale you have spent all those words working around. And when scanned they provide an actual time frame you can see that contains past, present, and future. Now we are looking at Truth and seeing what time it is. And if truth we can watch and see if the next portion revealed comes to be in order and on time. This is Revelation and the will of the Lord who gave it.

Now.

Why would a clip from one scene be tossed into a clip from another scene?

In order to hide what the Lord intends to reveal in the last days we are told of the method.

John is told to take the book, and eat it up, and what is sweet upon his lips is to be bitter in the belly. He has taken the tale and mixed it up, and what is sweet (revealing and easy to understand) has been made bitter (hard to understand and scarey). This also carries through to the entire bible. Just lighter than Revelation.

I have also noticed slightly altered wording in the bible references used. Please do not attempt to decipher scripture via slang or altered text. Hebrew to start, a little Greek and such if you can read the original scriptures, and The Original King James Version of scripture must be used if you are to have any chance.

You see the UN is the 7-10-10 and the link provided above can fill in the blanks well. This is a prophecy for our day, and not some long drawn out sterile vision of days past. Shame on all who profess to know for stature and in the endeavor mislead others with false doctrine.

I can reveal the portion of scripture described in few words.

The UN will soon come to great power and after a colapse in the marketplace, will use the computer and the world wide web to regulate wire and none paper currency exchange globally. The US will be faced with singularity or compliance. The mark is a card and secret numbers, or a web site to visit, or a web-site of your own to try and sell through. Of course each is important as you don't need a web-site to physically go to a shop but you would then have to have the same item and secret code no matter which method you chose. It is further resolved that the name of the beast in control is the sixth letter of the Hebrew Alphabet and what better langauge to use than your native tongue when the Lord gave us the WWW. We can further deduce that the UN is the name of blasphemy as UNanything blasphemes that thing into it's complete opposite.

Rich - UNRich, Worthy - UnWorthy, - etc...

I have revealed more of current and factual revelations, sent in advance by the Lord, than 2000 years of study in this few moments. And here is the best part. You can look, see, and watch as the picture I reveal grows into reality and comes to be. Scripture came long ago for a time in the future called the last days. It is for, about, and contains those days with a sprinkle of yesterday for good measure. (In one generation these saying shall be proved, I come that you may know the truth, unto all things there is a season)

Why would anyone prepare a tale of yesterday only, to explain a prophecy for the end times?

What do you do when it doesn't fit?

Pieces of the Lord's Puzzle...

Seven heads, ten horns, ten crowns.
The key of David.
Three sixes.
Woman clothed with the sun.
Woman clothed in scarlet.
The Mark.
Seven Kings.
Daniel's four kings and another.
Michael.
Another Book.
The Altar.
Man Child.
Mystery Babylon.
Little horn.
He goat.
Four Horsemen.
Seven seals.
And the list goes on and on...

We don't need no yesterday, and trust me, this is what has come and gone. We need today, and look, you can see it all right now. That is, and was, and will be the Lord's mission when He laid out the Truth that is to be revealed at the end. And with scripture rightly divided you can see a clear picture of the day His are told to prepare for. Not a fuzzy picture of the past.
 
In your service.

Come see me, and we can walk the path which is Truth.

[Shammu]

In order to know the future you have to know the past, theComforter.

[2nd Timothy]

I agree DW.   Seeing as how the statue represents Kingdoms that were to rise and fall, there is no reason for the theme to end at the 2 feet and toes.

Dan 2:41  And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Dan 2:42  And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Observing how the other kingdoms rose and fell is a good lesson not to be overlooked.   I am sure the UN will play a role, I am sure computers will play a role, but I am also sure Kingdoms or Nations will play a rule, just like Daniel explains.  To ignore history, is to ignore proofs we already have to interpret future proofs yet to take place.   If America plays a role in endtime events, I am hard pressed to find it in scripture.  Personally, I see America currently standing in the way of a one world government, but that could change by a number of possibilities.

Grace and Peace!