The Lutheran Church

[Heidi]

I was at a funeral at a Lutheran church yesterday nad was deeply saddened by what I hear from the Pastor. He said on the one hand that we are born again at baptism and that no one can come between oursleves and God. I most certainly agree with the last part of his statement which is referring to his true sheep. But I know many, many people who were baptized aas infants who are now atheists. Therefore is Jesus's true sheep listen to His voice, then the atheists who were once baptized are obvioulsy not his true sheep. I always knew that the Lutheran church taught that we are saved when we are baptized, but the fact that the pastor cannot see these contradictions is deeply troubling.

In addition, at the ende of the service, the pasor commedn the spirit of the dead person into heaven. I know for a fact that the dead person was an atheist! I guess according to the Lutheran and catholic churches, ALL of us are saved! By the priests and pastors no less! It always hurts me when our Lord Jesus christ is given a backseat in the Christian church.

[JudgeNot]

But I know many, many people who were baptized aas infants who are now atheists.

That hits the nail right on the head.  Being baptized as an infant is an exercise in futility.  One must coherently choose Jesus Christ as Savior FIRST – baptism comes afterward.  

Acts 8:36-38
Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may."
And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

These passages demonstrate that Baptism comes after faith - acceptance of the Lord as Savior.  An infant is unable to exercise that ablility.

PS: I realize that in the Catholic and Lutheran faiths - infant baptism (sprinkling) is only meant to deliver the infant from original sin ie; the sin inherited from Adam - not from "venial" (actual) sins.

[ebia]

I was at a funeral at a Lutheran church yesterday nad was deeply saddened by what I hear from the Pastor. He said on the one hand that we are born again at baptism and that no one can come between oursleves and God. I most certainly agree with the last part of his statement which is referring to his true sheep. But I know many, many people who were baptized aas infants who are now atheists. Therefore is Jesus's true sheep listen to His voice, then the atheists who were once baptized are obvioulsy not his true sheep. I always knew that the Lutheran church taught that we are saved when we are baptized, but the fact that the pastor cannot see these contradictions is deeply troubling.

What makes you think he can't see the paradox (not contradiction) in it?  The Christian faith is full of paradoxes - the whole concept of Trinity is a stunning example.

Apart from that, adult baptism may reduce the number of such baptisms, but it certainly doesn't eliminate them.  To not baptise children denies them their place in the body of Christ, and He had pretty strong words to say to those who tried to stop little children coming to Him.

In addition, at the ende of the service, the pasor commedn the spirit of the dead person into heaven. I know for a fact that the dead person was an atheist! I guess according to the Lutheran and catholic churches, ALL of us are saved!

The Catholic, Lutheran and other churches would LIKE all to be saved.  To "commedn the spirit of the dead person into heaven [sic]" is to ask God to find a way to admit that person into heaven.  It doesn't say whether they will or will not be admitted.   If you don't want everyone to be admitted, then you are falling a heck of a long way short of the love that God demands of us.

It always hurts me when our Lord Jesus christ is given a backseat in the Christian church.

Just because Heidi doesn't understand what is going on, doesn't mean that Christ is being given a back seat.

[ebia]

But I know many, many people who were baptized aas infants who are now atheists.

That hits the nail right on the head.  Being baptized as an infant is an exercise in futility.  One must coherently choose Jesus Christ as Savior FIRST – baptism comes afterward.  

Acts 8:36-38
Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may."
And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

These passages demonstrate that Baptism comes after faith - acceptance of the Lord as Savior.  An infant is unable to exercise that ablility.

That's one passage.  And it is an example of baptism coming after intellectual assent - it does not demonstrate that it's always that way around.

[Brother Love]

I was at a funeral at a Lutheran church yesterday nad was deeply saddened by what I hear from the Pastor. He said on the one hand that we are born again at baptism and that no one can come between oursleves and God. I most certainly agree with the last part of his statement which is referring to his true sheep. But I know many, many people who were baptized aas infants who are now atheists. Therefore is Jesus's true sheep listen to His voice, then the atheists who were once baptized are obvioulsy not his true sheep. I always knew that the Lutheran church taught that we are saved when we are baptized, but the fact that the pastor cannot see these contradictions is deeply troubling.

In addition, at the ende of the service, the pasor commedn the spirit of the dead person into heaven. I know for a fact that the dead person was an atheist! I guess according to the Lutheran and catholic churches, ALL of us are saved! By the priests and pastors no less! It always hurts me when our Lord Jesus christ is given a backseat in the Christian church.

Good post, and it shows what man-made religion will teach.
It just makes me sick.

[Heidi]

Ebia, you really do need to think through your posts before you write them. The point is that if it happened even ONCE, then their theory is not true. Jesus said; "No one can snatch them out of my hand." That's a true statement. If someone is baptized as an infant and becomes an atheist, he therefore CANNOT have born again at baptism or Jesus would be a liar.

I agree with you, Brother Love. I can see why Jesus was so angry at the Pharisees, the religious teachers who claimed to "see". They are leading so many people astray and what's saddest of all, I don't think they care or they would search their hearts and scrutinize Jesus's words. But their reputation in the community would be on the line and that is what they worship. Otherwise, they would seek out the truth first.

[darby]

Babies are Christened I believe, when the water is sprinkled on the head.  I regard baptism as conscious decision that one makes for his or her self, later in life.  

[blainefabin]

I was at a funeral at a Lutheran church yesterday nad was deeply saddened by what I hear from the Pastor. He said on the one hand that we are born again at baptism and that no one can come between oursleves and God. I most certainly agree with the last part of his statement which is referring to his true sheep. But I know many, many people who were baptized aas infants who are now atheists. Therefore is Jesus's true sheep listen to His voice, then the atheists who were once baptized are obvioulsy not his true sheep. I always knew that the Lutheran church taught that we are saved when we are baptized, but the fact that the pastor cannot see these contradictions is deeply troubling.

actually i know several people who were born again as adults and baptized as adults that are now atheists, new agers, gay/lesbiens, etc etc. i think if you are going to look at the surface you will only see superficially, but if you look at the doctrine surrounding infant baptism you may see a larger consistency to the teaching. regardless, don't be confused, infants as well as adults change their minds.

In addition, at the ende of the service, the pasor commedn the spirit of the dead person into heaven. I know for a fact that the dead person was an atheist! I guess according to the Lutheran and catholic churches, ALL of us are saved! By the priests and pastors no less! It always hurts me when our Lord Jesus christ is given a backseat in the Christian church.

catholics and lutherans absolutely do not believe we are saved by pastors and priests... i pray for people all the time and don't expect to be placed on the throne. a person prays for the person that has just died... for god to have mercy on his soul. this has nothing to do with being saved by the pastor...unless your just nit picking and finding fault where there is none to justify your own tradition.

mike

[ebia]

Ebia, you really do need to think through your posts before you write them. The point is that if it happened even ONCE, then their theory is not true. Jesus said; "No one can snatch them out of my hand." That's a true statement.

That's equally true of all baptism, not just infant baptism.

If someone is baptized as an infant and becomes an atheist, he therefore CANNOT have born again at baptism or Jesus would be a liar.

Or your interpretation of Jesus' words is wrong.

You assume that "cannot be snatched out of my hand" equals "cannot walk away from me".   This is clearly untrue.

[Heidi]

Ebia, Jesus said we have to be born again of water and the spirit to enter heaven. The Lutheran church teaches that we are born again when we are baptized. MANY people who are baptized as infants later become atheists. Now you tell me how a person can be born again and enter heaven if he is an atheist?

Jesus said; "My sheep listen to my voice." If people walk away from Him are they listening to His voice? Yes or no? If not, then they CANNOT be his true sheep or you are saying that Jesus is a liar. Again, you really need to think through your posts before you write them. And you call other people ignorant?

[blainefabin]

Ebia, Jesus said we have to be born again of water and the spirit to enter heaven. The Lutheran church teaches that we are born again when we are baptized. MANY people who are baptized as infants later become atheists. Now you tell me how a person can be born again and enter heaven if he is an atheist?

heidi

lutherans probably believe this because it is what is in the bible... why aren't you aware of this? the fact that born again is referring to baptism is not only a lutheran doctrine but a catholic and orthodox one too. you can find it in the church fathers from the earliest times.

what would be beneficial for you to do is  get some good church history under your belt to help you better understand some of these issues you claim to be an authority on.

at any rate your argument fails for the fact that even those that are baptized as adults, or claim to be born-again by reading a prayer on a tract or going forward at an altar call have also become atheists.

the concept of infant baptism from a catholic perspective, and i assume the lutheran as well is all dependant on it's conclusion in confirmation... this to catholics is the conclusion of the rite of initiation.. where the person reaffirms their profession of faith and promises made on their behalf at baptism. so while infants are baptized the fact remains that the completion of this sacrament if fulfilled when they are older...

i actually know a friend that chose not to be confirmed because at the time she did not have the faith. years later she decided to persue God through faith and was confirmed as a 25 year old adult.

mike

[Heidi]

I know exactly what is in the bible about baptism. In Acts 1:4-5, Jesus said;' "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days, you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." Jesus makes it clear that they are 2 separate entities.

The lack of faith in Jesus's words indicates His true sheep from the people who "honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me." Again, it's very easy to distinguish between the former and the latter. The former think Jesus was a liar when He said; "No one can snatch them out of my hand." They see the catholic doctrine as the gospel instead of Jesus's words. The latter KNOW that "No one can snatch them out of my hand." That is why the Holy Spirit does NOT necessarily come at baptism because MANY baptized infants become atheists. We are only born again when we are born again, not because MAN decides we are born again. Once the Holy Spirit enters us, it CANNOT then jump back outside of us Jesus said it will be in us FOREVER. Jesus is not a liar. I'm saddened that some people who call themselves "christians" believe that He is. Who do you think is snatching us out of His hand when we walk away from Him? The tooth fairy? We are either ruled by Satan or the Holy Spirit. None of us is ABOVE either. But Jesus said that NO ONE can snatch us out of His hand. You either believe Him or you don't. Jesus said; "My true sheep listen to my voice" That is also a fact! The ones who don't, therefore CANNOT be His true sheep! I think you guys need to read the gospels instead of the catholic doctrine. For only JESUS has the truth. Only when you KNOW ALL of His words, will you understand what He's saying.