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Izar
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« on: May 15, 2004, 03:07:35 AM »

 According to the Handbook for Todayís Catholic, page 47, "If you die in the love of God but possess any Ďstains of sin,í such stains are cleansed away in a purifying process called purgatory. These stains of sin are primarily the temporal punishment due to venial or mortal sins already forgiven but for which sufficient penance was not done during your lifetime."
     The Catholic Catechism, paragraph 1030, says that purgatory is for "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
     Among the many doctrines that Catholicism claims to be derived through Sacred Tradition, purgatory is one of the most interesting and puzzling, particularly to a Protestant. In light of the Pauline doctrine of justification by grace through faith, how is it possible that an afterlife cleansing through punishment is necessary for a Christian who has trusted in Jesus to cleanse him from all His sins? Wasn't Jesus' punishment for our transgressions sufficient? Didnít He take our place in that He suffered our death? It would seem that the words of Christ, "It is finished," (John 19:30) do not mean that the cleansing of our souls was completed on the cross.
     Of course, Roman Catholic doctrine states that eternal life is bestowed upon the one who receives baptism (Catechism, par. 1265 - 1266, 1992). It is the stains of the sins committed after baptism and not removed through penance, good works, prayers, the Mass, etc., that are removed in the fires of purgatory (Handbook for Today's Catholic, page 47).
     In light of the doctrine of justification by faith (Rom. 5:1), where Jesus bore all of our sins, purgatory would seem to have no theologically justifiable right to exist. But the Bible alone is not appealed to by Catholic theologians in support of Purgatory. By far, the main support for Purgatory is found in the Catholic doctrine of Sacred Tradition. Nevertheless, what does the Bible say about justification, punishment, and our sins? They are cleansed, they are purifed by the death of Jesus Christ.
     Jesus bore our sins in His body, paid the penalty for them, and died. He said, "It is finished." In Greek, the phrase, "It is finished" is one word, "tetelestai". In ancient Greek (Roman?) papyri texts that were receipts for taxes, when a debt was paid in full, the word "tetelestai", was written on the document. This meant that the debt had been paid in full. In other words, Jesus had finished the work of atonement. But not only atonement (to make amends, to make right), but also of propitiation (turning away Godís wrath). He had fully paid the debt invoked by the sinner. There was nothing more to be done... It was finished.
     Yet, the doctrine of Purgatory, in effect, is saying that we must suffer in purgatory for sins not Ďcovered by baptismí and not covered by the cross. It is to say that the work of Christ is not finished and that there are things we must do to complete the sacrificial, cleansing work of Christ. This amounts to earning heaven by our good works, albeit, a work of suffering. Additionally, the doctrine of Purgatory implies that a person must atone for his own sins. It implies that the person must do more than what the Law of God requires of him. This is called supererogation.
     When Jesus said, "It is finished," all that was necessary in the atonement was concluded and all in Christ were justified. We cannot complete or add to Christís work through our suffering. Purgatory is not only unnecessary, but it contradicts Godís word.


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blainefabin
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2004, 02:21:55 PM »

According to the Handbook for Todayís Catholic, page 47, "If you die in the love of God but possess any Ďstains of sin,í such stains are cleansed away in a purifying process called purgatory. These stains of sin are primarily the temporal punishment due to venial or mortal sins already forgiven but for which sufficient penance was not done during your lifetime."
     The Catholic Catechism, paragraph 1030, says that purgatory is for "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
     Among the many doctrines that Catholicism claims to be derived through Sacred Tradition, purgatory is one of the most interesting and puzzling, particularly to a Protestant. In light of the Pauline doctrine of justification by grace through faith, how is it possible that an afterlife cleansing through punishment is necessary for a Christian who has trusted in Jesus to cleanse him from all His sins? Wasn't Jesus' punishment for our transgressions sufficient? Didnít He take our place in that He suffered our death? It would seem that the words of Christ, "It is finished," (John 19:30) do not mean that the cleansing of our souls was completed on the cross.
     Of course, Roman Catholic doctrine states that eternal life is bestowed upon the one who receives baptism (Catechism, par. 1265 - 1266, 1992). It is the stains of the sins committed after baptism and not removed through penance, good works, prayers, the Mass, etc., that are removed in the fires of purgatory (Handbook for Today's Catholic, page 47).

thank you for posting this.


 
Quote
  In light of the doctrine of justification by faith (Rom. 5:1), where Jesus bore all of our sins, purgatory would seem to have no theologically justifiable right to exist.

actually as noted above pergatory really doesn't even come into conflict with being justified by faith. as mentioned above the sins have been forgiven and salvation is assured. so justification doesn't come into play here at all.  what is at stake is the concept of penance.

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Quote
But the Bible alone is not appealed to by Catholic theologians in support of Purgatory. By far, the main support for Purgatory is found in the Catholic doctrine of Sacred Tradition.

this is mainly because the tradition of the church predated the canon of new testament scriptures.... as a matter of fact it is this same tradition that defined the sacred scriptures.  

the concept of purgatory actually comes from the jewish concept of gehenna:

Only the very righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom (guh-hee-NOHM) (in Yiddish, Gehenna), but sometimes as She'ol or by other names. According to one mystical view, every sin we commit creates an angel of destruction (a demon), and after we die we are punished by the very demons that we created. Some views see Gehinnom as one of severe punishment, a bit like the Christian Hell of fire and brimstone. Other sources merely see it as a time when we can see the actions of our lives objectively, see the harm that we have done and the opportunities we missed, and experience remorse for our actions. The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place on Olam Ha-Ba.

but there is still scriptural support for the doctrine.

1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  
 1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  
 1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  
 1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

this verse clearly shows that if we do not build (work) properly we shall still be saved (justified by faith) but that we also go through fire (purgatory).  


Quote
Nevertheless, what does the Bible say about justification, punishment, and our sins? They are cleansed, they are purifed by the death of Jesus Christ.
     Jesus bore our sins in His body, paid the penalty for them, and died. He said, "It is finished." In Greek, the phrase, "It is finished" is one word, "tetelestai". In ancient Greek (Roman?) papyri texts that were receipts for taxes, when a debt was paid in full, the word "tetelestai", was written on the document. This meant that the debt had been paid in full. In other words, Jesus had finished the work of atonement. But not only atonement (to make amends, to make right), but also of propitiation (turning away Godís wrath). He had fully paid the debt invoked by the sinner. There was nothing more to be done... It was finished.
Quote

this is true but it has nothing to do with purgatory.

we are saved, being saved and shall be saved. yet we still suffer.

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

paul says there is something lacking in christs afflictions? do you think he is contradicting christ when he cried tetelestoi


   
Quote
Yet, the doctrine of Purgatory, in effect, is saying that we must suffer in purgatory for sins not Ďcovered by baptismí and not covered by the cross.


no! as mentioned above the sins are paid for but temporal effects are what we suffer for. don't be confused. if i murder someone god will forgive me, but what he doesn't do is get us out of jail or suddenly bring the murdered victim back to life... we still pay our penance.

Quote
It is to say that the work of Christ is not finished and that there are things we must do to complete the sacrificial, cleansing work of Christ. This amounts to earning heaven by our good works, albeit, a work of suffering.

this also is not true. if we do end up in pergatory we will not be there forever. we will end up in heaven. pergatory is not hell. the preparation we experience on earth as suffering or in pergatory are only to prepare us for the glory that awaits us. so in effect the "works" done in pergatory do nothing for our salvation...we wouldn't be there if we were not saved.

Quote
Additionally, the doctrine of Purgatory implies that a person must atone for his own sins. It implies that the person must do more than what the Law of God requires of him. This is called supererogation.

again no. christ atones for our sins.

   
Quote
 When Jesus said, "It is finished," all that was necessary in the atonement was concluded and all in Christ were justified. We cannot complete or add to Christís work through our suffering. Purgatory is not only unnecessary, but it contradicts Godís word.

actually paul says differently, but then he doesn't confuse the way christ  made atonement with the method that christ works in us to prepare us for heaven.

in the end the doctrine of purgatory may be the most beautiful doctrine of the church. for in it we see christ taking those that he atoned for an washing their feet, putting on their robes, cleaning them up, building them up and preparing them for the banquet.

mike



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Izar
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2004, 06:19:30 PM »

Ummm, I get what you posted, I think...

So, your not catholic? I get that much.  Grin
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I dip this pen into my heart, write from my soul.
If ink were blood, I'd be still and cold...
Incarcerated in mortality
Until we give up the ghost
Languishing over morality
The flesh we love the most
The soul incased in prison
Encircled within our minds
blainefabin
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Posts: 59


I'm a llama!


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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2004, 10:17:56 PM »

Ummm, I get what you posted, I think...

So, your not catholic? I get that much.  Grin


?? why wouldn't i be?

mike
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