Where were the witnesses?

[Yehudi]

Shalom! I have a question to post, and it deals with the resurrection of Jesus:
   Many books of Christian apologetics are written with the theme of a case that would be brought before a court, to see if the evidence would prove a case. Below we shall explore this in depth.

Testimony One -- The Auto Wreck According to John Doe #1

"Bob and George had just walked out of the convenience store when a red colored van sped around the corner and collided with the lamp post. The lamp post fell and crashed into a mail truck that swerved and crashed into a stretch limo, resulting in a crumpling of both vehicles. The driver of the limo emerged from his seat, completely unharmed, and opened the door of the mail truck, and offered his hand to help the driver of the truck to the ground. The mailman grasped the limo driver's hand and limps away from the accident with the limo driver. This is the story that was told to me, and I'm sure it's the truth."
Testimony Two -- The Auto Wreck According to John Doe #2

"My friend George was walking along by himself when a green colored van sped around the corner and collided with the fire hydrant. The hydrant exploded, spraying water everywhere. A mail truck swerved and crashed into a town car, resulting in a crumpling of both vehicles. The driver of the town car emerged from his seat, blood streaming down his forehead, and opened the door of the mail truck, and offered his hand to help the driver of the truck to the ground. The mailman slapped away the limo driver's hand and limps away from the accident, ignoring the limo driver. This is the story that was told to me, and I'm sure it's the truth."
These two stories are a perfect example of the problems with the resurrection narratives in the Gospels. They are exclusive of one another, and cannot possibly both be true. Such is the case with the Gospels. While in a court of law, some leeway is often given because people are inperfect and would remember things differently and from different perspectives. This cannot be given in the case of the Gospels, because the landmark claim of Divine inspiration is being made, and something Divinely inspired would not contain contradictions or errors.

Further injury to the claim in the examples above is that the witnesses both admit that they aren't actually witnesses! This plays a large part in how the reader should answer the following question:

It is known that Christians often defend apparent inconsistencies in the four resurrection narratives by explaining it as if it were a car-wreck -- four witnesses who saw the same event will tell the story over differently, from their own perspective, as given in the example above. How can one honestly appeal to this point of view when the New Testament by its own admission tells us that the authors of the Gospels did not witness the events themselves?
Testimony Regarding the Amazing Flying Man

"Folks, I want you all to know, that a few years ago, a man named John Doe, whom no one had seen for years, showed himself in public. He glowed a light blue, and levitated to a height of twenty meters, at which point he turned into a bird and joined a group of birds flying above, never to be seen again. Not only did I witness this, but there were five hundred other witnesses, but I don't know where those witnesses are, and they haven't seemed to find this event interesting enough to tell anyone about it."
This case introduces us with a new difficulty. Can we trust the claims of something that defies nature in a case where witnesses are claimed to exist, but we never hear from those witnesses, so that not only is the miraculous claim questionable, but also we have questions regarding the existence of witnesses??

The reader should now apply this principle to the following questions:

1) Christians point to Paul's claim that 500 people saw a resurrected Jesus all at once in order to bolster his claim of Christianity's validity. Why didn't he tell us who the witnesses were or where they lived?

2) Why didn't the 500 witnesses ever come forward to give testimony? Doesn't that mean that Christianity can't prove that there were witnesses?

3) When one evaluates a claim, doesn't he need to hear the witnesses' testimony to make his ruling, not just be told that witnesses exist? I could tell you that I once was able to fly under my own power, and that 500 people witnessed me do it, but where does that leave my claim if you don't know who the 500, where they lived, or what they had to say about it, especially if you never heard of it from an outside source?
Didn't You See The Sign?


"I know you guys didn't trust our boss when he said he would reappear after being missing for a week and triumphantly return to breath fire as a sign he'd been changed by aliens, but we saw it happen before our very eyes. It was supposed to be a sign for you to see, but we testify that it happened!"
The problem with this claim is obvious. The same problem exists in the following question:
Jesus, when asked by the Pharisees to give them a sign, replied he would give them the sign of Jonah -- just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights, so too would Jesus die and be resurrected on the third day. However, after the supposed resurrection, Jesus didn't appear to the Pharisees. He only appeared to those who had already believed in him. How is this a sign to the Pharisees. If I gave you a sign that defied nature, but disappeared and then my friends, whom you never trusted in the first place, came to you and told you the sign had come to pass, how would you react? What good is a sign if you never see it?

Aren't we all, Jew or gentile, seeking truth???

Be Well,
Yehudi

[Petro]

Yehudi, welcome to this board,

There is some truth to what you have posted, as it regards human nature and such, however, the Gospels and writings of the NT, can hardly be compared to an event such as an automibile wreck or any other event in human history for that matter, because of its uniqueness.

Thank God, His word is not set strictly on the witness of what man saw, or heard, clearly the writings which appear to have inconsistent and contradicting testimonies from these Gospel writers attesting to mans in ability to get the facts down, if he relys on his memory, but we are assured that what is written is for our own admonishmen, that we might believe, these things.

As you know the writings of these Gospels and Epistles, were in almost every instence writings of things that occured and brought to memory by the Apostels and writers in all cases decades after the occurance, especially with reagrd to the resurrection.

But we have a more surer testimony of scripture in that, the witness of God the Father himself and that of the Holy Spirit, which were confirmed to us, by these writers of the NT.

Not only that, but the very Words of the Risen Savior himself,   not to mention that of many who have come by the faith promised to believe, who have gone on to live their lives testifying of the power of Gods own word to change the life of condemned men.

History gives an account of men dieing for their faith in Jesus Christ.

We know that men will die for what they believe to be the truth, but not for a lie.

So, as you can see, it is easy to dismiss on the surface what is perceived to be a myth, but when the totality of what has been written together with the physical testimony, to a dying world is scrutinized, it is practically impossible to dismiss it as a simple myth or misconception of the truth or misundertstood teaching of men.

I am afraid skeptics, will never see the truth in what scripture teaches for the simple reason they have already discounted the truth of the matter, but honest skeptics have come to faith in Christ Jesus, when they have taken time, to close examine the facts, honestly..

All of the OT, prophecies concerning the coming Mesiiah were written centuries before they were fulfilled in this Jesus, even His death and resurrection,

What are the chances of this happening; by dumb luck??

Living proof that there is a God who sits in the heavenlies, and overules in the affairs of mankind, is clearly evident, by His people whom He chose as a nation for Himself, Israel,  and their history, is the history of God dealing with that nation which although rebelious, He will in the end bring it to Himself.

No nation on earth, has been so utterly destroyed and carried off by their enemies, and scattered throughout the other nations of the world, to be gathered again, in  these latters days into the very land, given to them as an inheritance to their fathers forever.  This rebirth of this nation was prophesied In the book of Ezekiel.

Is this fulfillment of scripture, or just, dumb luck of history, or is it the result of God the Creator executing His plan which He purposed in Himself from the begining, by the Sovereign cousel of His own will.

I guess it really depends how one sees it??  

The resurrection that is??


Petro

[Allinall]

It is known that Christians often defend apparent inconsistencies in the four resurrection narratives by explaining it as if it were a car-wreck -- four witnesses who saw the same event will tell the story over differently, from their own perspective, as given in the example above. How can one honestly appeal to this point of view when the New Testament by its own admission tells us that the authors of the Gospels did not witness the events themselves?

...

The reader should now apply this principle to the following questions:

1) Christians point to Paul's claim that 500 people saw a resurrected Jesus all at once in order to bolster his claim of Christianity's validity. Why didn't he tell us who the witnesses were or where they lived?

2) Why didn't the 500 witnesses ever come forward to give testimony? Doesn't that mean that Christianity can't prove that there were witnesses?

3) When one evaluates a claim, doesn't he need to hear the witnesses' testimony to make his ruling, not just be told that witnesses exist? I could tell you that I once was able to fly under my own power, and that 500 people witnessed me do it, but where does that leave my claim if you don't know who the 500, where they lived, or what they had to say about it, especially if you never heard of it from an outside source?
Didn't You See The Sign?

Welcome Daniel!  You make note of the inconsistent Gospels, and the explainations for their "inconsistencies."  Each account is given in light of the testimonies of 5 separate individuals who witnessed the empty tomb, and the angelic testimony as well at the "resurrection" itself.  Mary witnessed the risen Jesus at that time as well, and told the others.  The point, however, isn't the act of the resurrection, but the resurrected Jesus!  They witnessed a risen, and living Jesus, that they had witnessed being a dead Jesus.

Paul made note of 500 witnesses of the risen Jesus.  He did so as a means of over emphasizing the fact of the risen Lord.  That is to say, Jewish custom for establishing a fact, as I recall, was to have 3 witnesses.  If three named witnesses were given, and testified as such, then it was to be accepted as truth.  Paul states that more than 500 were known to have witnessed the risen Lord and that, at the time of the writing, were alive to confirm the fact themselves!  A fact, that as most believers of the day, they were confirming.

Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. - 1 Corinthians 15:6

The sign Jesus gave to the Pharisees was that over 500 people witnessed, and testified to His resurrected Self!  The Pharisees were bound to follow to the letter, the Law.  The Law demanded 3 or more, as I recall.  Jesus gave them 500 plus.

[John1one]

Yehudi, Shalom!
I do not know if you are still looking at this tread or not, but I'll try to address those things that trouble you.

Now, concerning the red/green van and the bloody/unhurt limo driver, do you honestly claim that the Gospel accounts are so blatantly contradictory? Instead of hypothetical color let's get to the nitty-gritty and throw out some Scriptures that contradict and I'll try to answer your claim. I have read all four resurrection narratives and am unable to see the contradictory statements that you claim are there. Please be a bit less vague.

Quote Yehudi:

"It is known that Christians often defend apparent inconsistencies in the four resurrection narratives by explaining it as if it were a car-wreck -- four witnesses who saw the same event will tell the story over differently, from their own perspective, as given in the example above. How can one honestly appeal to this point of view when the New Testament by its own admission tells us that the authors of the Gospels did not witness the events themselves?"

 Hmmmm… It is known by whom that Christians often defend apparent inconsistencies…as if it were a car wreck? I have never heard it explained that way and definitely not in the light that you put it in. Moreover, I see no inconsistencies. I compare them together and see one adding information that others lack. No one account gives the complete story.

I have never appealed to the account of the resurrection in the way you have said that Christians often do. As for the authors, according to the historical record Mark wrote what Peter (a witness) said, just as the court stenographer might do. John wrote the Gospel that bears his name. Matthew is a composite account probably by the eleven and was used to disciple newly baptized Jewish Christians. Luke, by his own admission went to first hand witnesses to get their accounts and recorded what they told him, much the same as an historical biographer would do. I see nothing wrong with how the accounts have come down to me. If you can be more direct in what you see as faulty, present your case.

Concerning the 500 brethren witnessing the resurrected Jesus, you make out as though it was some myth like your "Amazing Flying Man" simply because the Bible does not list their names.

Who counted the bodies after Samson killed a thousand men with the jawbone of an ass? Is that a myth too? We neither know their names nor do we know the name of the one who counted the bodies. Yet, I believe the account. Moses records that God created the universe in 6 days. No one was there to make sure it was not 6 ages or 10 billion years. Nevertheless Moses records the voice of God saying 6 days. I am simple enough to believe it. Is this a myth, as well?

The Bible alludes to the 500 meeting the resurrected Christ  in other accounts. The only meeting that Jesus "advertised" He would appear after His resurrection was in Galilee. If you were told someone you loved and respected (or feared and hated) would appear to you at a certain place after he was dead - but only if you were at that place at the time appointed would you be there? Speaking for myself, the curiosity would be unbearable. I would have to be there.

On the night He was betrayed Jesus announced to His disciples:
Matthew 26:32  But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

At the tomb the angels told the women to go and remind the apostles of their scheduled meeting with Christ:
Matthew 28:7  And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

If that were not enough, Jesus also appeared to these same women and commanded them to tell the apostles to be at the scheduled meeting:
Matthew 28:10  Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

The Bible specifically states that the eleven were there at the meeting, but do you honestly think that the women and anyone else who heard about the resurrection and the scheduled meeting would not have been there?
Matthew 28:16  Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17  And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted

Verse 17 says that some doubted. Who might that be; some of the eleven? Why would any of them doubt. Tradition says they all died a martyrs death, besides they were all elated trying to convince Thomas that they had seen Jesus alive (John 20:25). Who doubted? Is it reading too much into the Scripture to say that maybe some of the people at the publicized event were other than the eleven? Perhaps it was some of the 500. Perhaps more than 500 saw, but only 500 believed, because Paul calls them brethren. Maybe some who saw Jesus were not there for the truth. After all, the chief priests in Jerusalem knew of the resurrection, but paid off the guard to keep it quiet (Matthew 28:11-15). They were not interested in the truth. Were they?

Quote Yehudi:

"Why didn't the 500 witnesses ever come forward to give testimony? Doesn't that mean that Christianity can't prove that there were witnesses?"

What makes you think that they did not come forward? Who were the many witnesses that Luke spoke of in Luke 1:1? Who were the Pharisees who believed in Acts 15:5? Were they all converted at Jerusalem, or were there some there who made the journey into Galilee to see for themselves and believed when they saw Jesus.

Quote Yehudi:

"When one evaluates a claim, doesn't he need to hear the witnesses' testimony to make his ruling, not just be told that witnesses exist? I could tell you that I once was able to fly under my own power, and that 500 people witnessed me do it, but where does that leave my claim if you don't know who the 500, where they lived, or what they had to say about it, especially if you never heard of it from an outside source?
Didn't You See The Sign?"

We often speak of the twelve without mentioning their names. We don't even know who the 70 were, but we trust that there were in fact 70 people that Jesus sent before Him as He journeyed toward Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Dedication a few months before His death. Maybe a number of these 500 were known to the people. Luke seemed to know "many" who tried to put some testimony into writing (Luke 1:1). Who are they? We are not told, but it is possible that at least some of the 500 may be included in the "many" that Luke speaks of. We are not told the names of the 500, but we are given the name of Paul who said they existed. If you don't trust Paul, then you won't believe what he says. I have read all of what Paul has written and consider what he wrote to be Scripture.

Do you consider all of what Moses wrote to be the Word of God? I do. Tell me, there are a lot of names written in the genealogies of both books of Chronicles. How many of those names have any significance to you? David, Moses, Aaron and a few others I suspect, but the majority of the names mean nothing to you. What if the names and addresses were given in 1Corinthians by Paul, would it make any difference to you or anyone else today? How would you verify Paul's record? Wouldn't the list, itself, be suspect to you just as much as the lack of one is?

Quote Yehudi:

"Jesus, when asked by the Pharisees to give them a sign, replied he would give them the sign of Jonah -- just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights, so too would Jesus die and be resurrected on the third day. However, after the supposed resurrection, Jesus didn't appear to the Pharisees. He only appeared to those who had already believed in him. How is this a sign to the Pharisees. If I gave you a sign that defied nature, but disappeared and then my friends, whom you never trusted in the first place, came to you and told you the sign had come to pass, how would you react? What good is a sign if you never see it? "

As I mentioned above, this thing was not done in a corner. The priests paid off the witnesses that they trusted. They knew that Jesus rose from the dead. They were not honest men. Jesus gave them a sign and even produced a preview before the actual event so there would be no mistaking their hearts. Lazarus was dead and was resurrected the fourth day after his death (John 11:39, 46-50), but the leaders planned not only to kill Jesus but also Lazarus whom Jesus brought back to life (John 12:10-11).

Quote Yehudi:
 

"Aren't we all, Jew or gentile, seeking truth???"

No! Some Jews and some gentiles seek the truth. Most believe what they desire to believe. Which are you?

Be well,
John1one