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Author Topic: Using Scripture Alone - Tell me where Jesus said to write His teachings down  (Read 5697 times)
_Christopher_
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« on: May 05, 2004, 03:48:38 AM »

If the written word is more important than the Church, then why did Christ establish a Church to "go and teach all nations?"  Where in the Bible did Jesus, or anyone, say to write down His teachings?

Jesus never wrote anything, aside from some scribbles in the dust that were not preserved.  We don’t have any idea what he wrote in the dust at the attempted execution of Mary Magdalene at the hands of sinners with stones.  Not once did Jesus ever tell anyone to write down His teachings and form the Bible.  What He did tell them was to go and teach people through the spoken word, which would be empowered by the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.  "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." - Matthew 28:18-20

It is evident from Paul’s writings that he listened to the teachings of Jesus from the other apostles and pasted them on to his disciples.  Thus the word of mouth was an essential mechanism for passing on the Word of God.  

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. - 2 Thessalonians 2:15

But here is the key.  The word of mouth teachings and the traditions passed on to the believers must come from those with authority, not just from anyone who decided to take the task upon them.

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. - Colossians 2:8

The Church is often accused of having “traditions of men” but the accusers often miss this essential point:  Without the authority to teach, the teachers among men are the ones passing on the actual “traditions of men,” which are contrary to the Bible.   Ideas like “faith alone,” and “scripture alone” are simply not taught in the Gospel.  They cropped up 1500 years after the Gospel was preached via the private interpretations of men.
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2004, 04:58:21 AM »

The Church is often accused of having “traditions of men” but the accusers often miss this essential point:

'The Church' ....? Do you mean the Body of Christ? Or do you mean the Catholic church?
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_Christopher_
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2004, 06:30:00 AM »

The Church is often accused of having “traditions of men” but the accusers often miss this essential point:

'The Church' ....? Do you mean the Body of Christ? Or do you mean the Catholic church?

Yes.
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sincereheart
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2004, 06:41:24 AM »

The Church is often accused of having “traditions of men” but the accusers often miss this essential point:

'The Church' ....? Do you mean the Body of Christ? Or do you mean the Catholic church?

Yes.

ROFL! But I've never heard of the Body of Christ being accused of it nearly as often as the Catholic church.... Wink
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_Christopher_
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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2004, 07:05:08 AM »

The Church is often accused of having “traditions of men” but the accusers often miss this essential point:

'The Church' ....? Do you mean the Body of Christ? Or do you mean the Catholic church?

Yes.

ROFL! But I've never heard of the Body of Christ being accused of it nearly as often as the Catholic church.... Wink

Are you going to attempt to answer the question or not? Wink
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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2004, 07:16:42 AM »

It is evident from Paul’s writings that he listened to the teachings of Jesus from the other apostles and pasted them on to his disciples.
Bad mistake - giving them biblical authority for "cut 'n' paste"ing.   Wink
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2004, 07:23:18 AM »

The Church is often accused of having “traditions of men” but the accusers often miss this essential point:

'The Church' ....? Do you mean the Body of Christ? Or do you mean the Catholic church?

Yes.

ROFL! But I've never heard of the Body of Christ being accused of it nearly as often as the Catholic church.... Wink

Are you going to attempt to answer the question or not? Wink

How can anyone attempt to answer a question when the question is unclear?  Wink When has the Body of Christ (as opposed to the Catholic church) been accused of having 'traditions of men'?? Wink
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2004, 10:19:42 AM »

Quote
If the written word is more important than the Church, then why did Christ establish a Church to "go and teach all nations?"  Where in the Bible did Jesus, or anyone, say to write down His teachings?

Exd 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this [for] a memorial in a book, and rehearse [it] in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Deu 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of [that which is] before the priests the Levites:

Isa 30:8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

Jer 36:28 Take thee again another roll, and write in it all the former words that were in the first roll, which Jehoiakim the king of Judah hath burned.

Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions:

Eze 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write [it] in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

Hab 2:2 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make [it] plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it

Phl 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed [is] not grievous, but for you [it is] safe.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2004, 03:15:12 PM »

Quote
If the written word is more important than the Church, then why did Christ establish a Church to "go and teach all nations?"  Where in the Bible did Jesus, or anyone, say to write down His teachings?

Exd 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this [for] a memorial in a book, and rehearse [it] in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Deu 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of [that which is] before the priests the Levites:

Isa 30:8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

Jer 36:28 Take thee again another roll, and write in it all the former words that were in the first roll, which Jehoiakim the king of Judah hath burned.

Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions:

Eze 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write [it] in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

Hab 2:2 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make [it] plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it

Phl 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed [is] not grievous, but for you [it is] safe.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


That was clever.

But his point is still relevant.  Christ never said to write his TEACHINGS down.
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2004, 03:40:28 PM »

Yes, He did. Rev. 1:11 is Christ talking.
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Nickolai
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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2004, 03:45:05 PM »

Yes, He did. Rev. 1:11 is Christ talking.

Yes, but He's not telling John to write all of his teachings.
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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2004, 04:56:15 PM »

Nickolai said:
Quote
But his point is still relevant.  Christ never said to write his TEACHINGS down.


Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Jhn 1:1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:14   And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Quibble all you want, but wherever in history God spoke to man, it was Jesus speaking also...the Word.

Whenever God said "write it down", then He was giving instruction to record what He said

To maintain that the "point is still relevant....Christ never said..." is ridiculous in the extreme. Just like maintaining that there is no trinity since the specific word is not recorded in the Scripture.

I suppose that you will maintain that the letters to the 7 churches were not "teachings", but only letters, maybe instructions.....and of course, by your last post, certainly not "all" of His teachings.

What are you trying to do? Eliminate the gospels? Declare that they have no value? Or just eliminate the parts that might be in conflict with Orthodox "tradition"?

Get real.
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2004, 08:51:01 PM »

The Church is often accused of having “traditions of men” but the accusers often miss this essential point:

'The Church' ....? Do you mean the Body of Christ? Or do you mean the Catholic church?

Yes.

ROFL! But I've never heard of the Body of Christ being accused of it nearly as often as the Catholic church.... Wink

You haven't been listening then. While most "christians" are busy trying to blast the catholics they never realize how damning their own arguments are to themselves (if they would only apply it thatway). go to an atheist  board sometime, and you will find that your arguments against catholicism are the same arguments they use against you. Anyway the very fact that you believe the bible, something penned by men, is enough to show that the accusation holds true, there is nothing that you or any other christian believes that is not understood traditionally. Your bible, your theology, your form of worship, have all been adopted from the teachings of men.

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Nickolai
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2004, 08:55:31 PM »

Nickolai said:
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But his point is still relevant.  Christ never said to write his TEACHINGS down.


Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Jhn 1:1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:14   And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Quibble all you want, but wherever in history God spoke to man, it was Jesus speaking also...the Word.

Whenever God said "write it down", then He was giving instruction to record what He said

To maintain that the "point is still relevant....Christ never said..." is ridiculous in the extreme. Just like maintaining that there is no trinity since the specific word is not recorded in the Scripture.

I suppose that you will maintain that the letters to the 7 churches were not "teachings", but only letters, maybe instructions.....and of course, by your last post, certainly not "all" of His teachings.

What are you trying to do? Eliminate the gospels? Declare that they have no value? Or just eliminate the parts that might be in conflict with Orthodox "tradition"?

Get real.

Why would I try to eliminate the Gospels when the Orthodox Church created them?  and peiced together the Bible.  Do you think your interpretation of scripture is better than the Church who created it?  You are a fallible human the Church is the Body of Christ.  Don't dare put yourself on the same level of understanding as Christ.

And have you read your post?  Half of the verses talk about word.  Since when has word meant Written.  When I speak am I not speaking words?

And those letters were to help a Church in a specific area (Who already had understandings of the Gospels that we have today without having to read them *Hint Hint*).  Look at the letters was one ever written just because or did they have a purpose.  John's 3 for example.  They end with John telling the reader that he will come and teach them in person.  He would rather not do it in letter.  
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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2004, 07:55:26 AM »



Original question from Christopher:
Quote
Where in the Bible did Jesus, or anyone, say to write down His teachings?

Nickilai, I get the impression you're just trying to pick a fight over "traditions" versus "sola scriptura". If you would please note the original question again, especially the bold part, you'll notice that the scriptures posted made specific reference to the fact that on many occasions God said specifically..."write it down".

Quote
Why would I try to eliminate the Gospels when the Orthodox Church created them?  and peiced together the Bible.

There certainly could be much contention as to the Orthodox Church "creating" the Gospels. Of course, I'm sure that you maintain that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all Orthodox, and like the RCC, claim that your "true" church extends back to the very first believer. OK...whatever.  Pieced together the Bible? Hmmmm. Let's see...the entirety of the OT was canon some 200 years before Orthodoxy even came into existence, and the first general collection of  NT scriptures was not until about 250-275, even though all of the "letters" were being read by the churches prior to then.

Quote
Do you think your interpretation of scripture is better than the Church who created it?  You are a fallible human the Church is the Body of Christ.  Don't dare put yourself on the same level of understanding as Christ.

Ahhh, could you point out to me where I stated that? Have I declared myself infallible? Or claimed the same level of understanding as Jesus?

2Pe 1:21   For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. (and it was recorded....).


Quote
And have you read your post?  Half of the verses talk about word.  Since when has word meant Written.  When I speak am I not speaking words?


Yes...I read it. Did you?

Quote
And those letters were to help a Church in a specific area (Who already had understandings of the Gospels that we have today without having to read them *Hint Hint*).
 
*Hint Hint* Yes, and the specific helps were recorded in writing, sent to them, and then read. They were also preserved so that we, many years later, could read them and have a glimmering of understanding about what was going on then, and continues to this day.


Quote
Look at the letters was one ever written just because or did they have a purpose.  John's 3 for example.  They end with John telling the reader that he will come and teach them in person.  He would rather not do it in letter. 

Of course letters are written for a purpose...at least the ones collected as canon. So what? Does that mean that what he will say in person is substantially different from what he has said in writing? Do you think John the Elder would be so unstable (doubleminded) as to tell them something that was not in agreement with what was recorded? I think not.

Again....a straightforward question was asked, and a reply was given using only scripture
Quote
, as was specified. What is the problem with that?
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