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Author Topic: Revelation 4 is a key to pre-tribulation rapture  (Read 4133 times)
aw
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« on: May 04, 2004, 06:19:24 PM »

In verse 1 notice it says to "COME UP." The church is GONE and it states that I will show you things which must be hereafter. After what? The RAPTURE, translation of saints, Catchibg away, or whatever name you wish to attach to our LEAVING.

The Church is not mentioned again until the very end of Revelation.

aw
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2004, 06:04:25 PM »

Rev4:1
After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

Sorry, nothing about rapture there.  
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2004, 01:30:48 AM »

Rev4:1
After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

Sorry, nothing about rapture there.  

 Hello Eddielee.

 There's no mention of Jesus there either, but we understand Him to be there because of the circumstantial evidence found in the preceding and following verses.

 If you read the verses you begin to get a clear picture of what is taking place.

  Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

"A door was opened in Heaven" Clearly, there is either something going to, or coming out from Heaven. Otherwise, why is the door opened?  Did God want John to write this down for his (John's) own benefit?  why would God want John to write about the opened door? Surely John would know the door was opened if he went through it right? There's obviously some greater significance here.

OK Eddie, please bare with me for a bit, I am going somewhere with this. Please read the following three verses.

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.  
 Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.  
 Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  

 Now doesn't that put a clear picture of some sort of judicial proceedings about to begin? Have you ever seen a high court in session? There is usually a long row of judges with the head judge in the middle. Here we have what appears to be an amazing and wondrous courtroom, with God The True And Holy Judge, very imposing. There are twenty four elders, each one in his own seat, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. I'm not saying that this is what is being depicted here Eddie, obviously I am surmising.  However, I do believe there is very good evidence for a pre-trib rapture, and in the following verse there is solid proof that there are saints in Heaven who have been Raptured and they are wearing crowns on their heads, so it is obvious that they have already been through the Bema Judgement in order for them to have received these crowns. If they are in Heaven ( and they are) and have crowns as well as white robes, we must conclude that they have been Raptured. All this evidence is found in Revelation 4, which is before Wrath and Tribulation.

 Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 Here (above) are the elders who have obviously been judged and received their crowns. If they have their crowns at Revelation 4:4 then it only stands to reason that they were judged prior to Revelation 4:4 Therefore, it is not unreasonable to assume Revelation 4:2-4 depicts God in His judgement Throne, which culminates in these men receiving the white robes and crowns at the conclusion of Rev 4:4




Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 What is the significance of John entering Heaven through an "open door" after being "called up" by God, that God Himself would make the comment ..."I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" There is an implied significance there Eddie. What do you feel God was trying to convey with the open door and calling up that He would make such a statement directly afterward?

 Finally...

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  

Whoever these twenty four are, it is clear that they are...

A) In Heaven at Rev 4

B) They are clothed in white raiment at Rev 4

C) They are wearing crowns of gold on their heads at Rev 4

It's obvious that they have been through the Bema Judgement and received their rewards and been cleansed at Rev 4. They had to have been Raptured in order to be judged and receive their rewards and been cleansed.

 Take care my friend. I hope I don't come off as pushy or arrogant. It's so hard to debate through a forum and try to make your point without the benefit of facial expression or real-time explanation in order to show my humble intentions.

 Bronzesnake.
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aw
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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2004, 11:55:32 AM »

An excellent teaching!

May I just add that the "LAST TRUMP" of Thess is not the last trump of Rev. It comes from the fact that when the Israelites were sojurning they sounded the trumpet TWICE.

The FIRST Trump sognaled to GET READY, pack your bags, etc.

The SECOND which was also called the LAST TRUMP signaled GO!!!!!!! I hope everyone who reads this has their bags packed because there is nothing hindering the LAST TRUMP and the sound of the voice to "Come up hither!"

If you want to be caught up into heaven just get  BORN AGAIN. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved-yes, and from the wrath to come.

aw
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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2004, 03:53:40 PM »



 

"A door was opened in Heaven" Clearly, there is either something going to, or coming out from Heaven. Otherwise, why is the door opened?  Did God want John to write this down for his (John's) own benefit?  why would God want John to write about the opened door? Surely John would know the door was opened if he went through it right? There's obviously some greater significance here.

John is describing what happened to him, a door opened in heaven and a voice told him to come upÖ

Quote
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.  
 Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.  
 Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  

 Now doesn't that put a clear picture of some sort of judicial proceedings about to begin?

I donít see any evidence for a judicial scene, for example, what would this look like without any sort of judicial pre-conception being placed upon the passage? Wouldnít everything be described exactly the same if it had nothing to do with any judgmental event? If it wasn't a judicial scene, would God be lounging on a sofa instead of being seated on his throne? Of course not, the scene is how it would be regardless of whether it was a judicial scene or not.

Quote
However, I do believe there is very good evidence for a pre-trib rapture, and in the following verse there is solid proof that there are saints in Heaven who have been Raptured and they are wearing crowns on their heads

Lets look at the following verse:

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

What evidence in this verse supports that these figures are: a.) Human and b.) raptured humans.

I donít see any evidence that they are human or that they were previously on earth to be raptured. The saints are given white robes, yet does that preclude angels and elders from wearing white robes as well? The passage doesn't give any support that because they are in white robes they have to have been raptured saints.

If this point in time depicts the rapture having previously occurred, then it happens before Jesus said it would.
   
What is the evidence for this? Jesus said:
Mark 13:24-27:
But in those days, following that distress,
   " 'the sun will be darkened,
       and the moon will not give its light;
    25the stars will fall from the sky,
       and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

And this event, the sun and moon darkening, does not happen until Revelation 6:

12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Therefore the gathering of the elect cannot happen until after the 6th seal.

If we say there are two gatherings, two raptures, one before Revelation 4 and one after the 6th seal, then we would have to find evidence supporting more then one gathering; yet there is only one gathering in Jesus' timeline, he only speaks of gathering the elect once in the Olivet discourse; and his account and Paul's account of the gathering have the same descriptors, making the notion that they are two different gatherings illogical.
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2004, 12:05:43 PM »

 Hello eddielee...

Quote
Lets look at the following verse:

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

What evidence in this verse supports that these figures are: a.) Human and b.) raptured humans.

I donít see any evidence that they are human or that they were previously on earth to be raptured. The saints are given white robes, yet does that preclude angels and elders from wearing white robes as well? The passage doesn't give any support that because they are in white robes they have to have been raptured saints.

 That's a good question.
First of all, one of the reasons that satan and his fallen angels are so angry with humans is the fact that Jesus took the blame and actually died for humans, so that we could be washed clean and enter His eternal  Kingdom. Satan and his fallen angels were given no such reprieve. As a result, angels do not receive crowns or white robes as reward for being faithful, only humans are rewarded in such a glorious manner. So we can be certain that these "elders" are human. We receive our gifts only after the Bema Judgement which occurs after the Rapture.

Quote
If this point in time depicts the rapture having previously occurred, then it happens before Jesus said it would.
   
What is the evidence for this? Jesus said:
Mark 13:24-27:
But in those days, following that distress,
  " 'the sun will be darkened,
      and the moon will not give its light;
    25the stars will fall from the sky,
      and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

And this event, the sun and moon darkening, does not happen until Revelation 6:

12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Therefore the gathering of the elect cannot happen until after the 6th seal.

If we say there are two gatherings, two raptures, one before Revelation 4 and one after the 6th seal, then we would have to find evidence supporting more then one gathering; yet there is only one gathering in Jesus' timeline, he only speaks of gathering the elect once in the Olivet discourse; and his account and Paul's account of the gathering have the same descriptors, making the notion that they are two different gatherings illogical.


 You are confusing the second coming and the Rapture my friend.

 Have a look at the following verses...

 Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.  

 OK...Someone is telling John that those who are called unto the marriage supper of Jesus are blessed. Now it's very important to remember that John was "called up" to Heaven after a "door was opened" and John has been in Heaven throughout the entire book of Revelation.


 Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  


 So who is it that is speaking to John in Heaven? It's not Jesus, it's not an Archangel, it's not an angel period...it's a human. Read the verse again. This man tells John not to fall at his feet amd worship him, because "I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus."

So eddielee, here is another man in Heaven with John. Who is he? how did he get to Heaven? Look at what happens next eddielee...


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  

 Heaven is opened again eddielee, only this time many are leaving Heaven as opposed to entering Heaven.

Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  

 Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

   This is unmistakably Jesus.


Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

 So Heaven is opened and Jesus is leading His armies [which were in Heaven] back to earth to do battle with satan and his armies.

 How do we know they are human armies? They are described as being "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" As you know, angels do not receive the gift of salvation. The angels who rebeled are going to Hell, so those clothed in fine linen, white and clean are humans who have been washed clean by the blood of Jesus. This verse clearly proves that a huge multitude of humans depart with Jesus through an opened door from Heaven back to earth to do battle with the forces of evil.

 Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  

 OK, now I'll address these verses.


 Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,  

 Jesus is describing the conditions on earth after the tribulation. He is talking about His second coming which I have addressed (above)


 Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.  


 Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.  


 Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.  

 Jesus is describing how He will gather His army just prior to His returning to earth to destroy evil. We know that there will be some of us who are left behind (missed the Rapture) and who are saved during the tribulation & wrath. Many of these people will be executed, but some will survive the entire seven year period. That's why Jesus says He will send His angels to gather His elect from where ever they are...notice He says they will come from earth and Heaven Why would Jesus tell His angels to look in Heaven if there was no one there?


Take care my friend.

Bronzesnake.
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Eddielee
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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2004, 12:24:04 PM »

Quote
That's why Jesus says He will send His angels to gather His elect from where ever they are...notice He says they will come from earth and Heaven Why would Jesus tell His angels to look in Heaven if there was no one there?

The word for heaven in that passage is Ouranos, which is defined as:
1. the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
    a. the universe, the world
    b. the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
    c. the sidereal or starry heavens
2. the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings

Therefore this gathering from the heavens could mean gathering saints already in heaven with God, and it could mean gathering the saints who have died and gone to Paradise (Luke 16), waiting for the return of the Lord. This verse is not a proof for people having already been raptured to heaven, nor is it by itself a proof for people being raised only from death.


Quote
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

So Heaven is opened and Jesus is leading His armies [which were in Heaven] back to earth to do battle with satan and his armies.

How do we know they are human armies? They are described as being "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" As you know, angels do not receive the gift of salvation. The angels who rebeled are going to Hell, so those clothed in fine linen, white and clean are humans who have been washed clean by the blood of Jesus. This verse clearly proves that a huge multitude of humans depart with Jesus through an opened door from Heaven back to earth to do battle with the forces of evil.

Angels who havn't fallen, havn't sinned, I don't find sufficient justification about their apperral not being white robes. And Scripture says that Jesus' army has angels in it:

2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

--------------------------------------

The division about the second coming and the rapture is based on saying that these two verses are not the same event:

Matthew 24:30-31
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


What are the aspects of each event? Matthew 24:
 a.) Jesus is coming, in the sky
 b.) There is a trumpet call and angels gather the elect

What are the aspects of 1 Thessalonians 4?
 a.) Jesus is coming down from heaven
 b.) There is a trumpet call
 c.) The people are meeting the Lord in the air

These events seem to have many of the same descriptors applied to both of them, it does not make sense to make them 2 separate events happening at different times to different people; it only makes sense if both passages are describing the same event.
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2004, 01:32:11 AM »

Excuse me.........
The Rapture comes after the last trumpet is blown.

1st Corinthians 15:51-56
51 Lo ! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since this scripture is speaking on one of the mysteries of God (Rapture) and Paul says it will occur at the last trumpet. Where and when does this trumpet occur in the book of Revelation?
Paul doesn't say first, second, or third trumpet, but last, which is the seventh. The key words are LAST TRUMPET and MYSTERY. Remember, in the book of Revelation the last trumpet is the seventh.
If you do not agree that the last trumpet Paul spoke of is the same last trumpet in Revelation, then why did Paul associate the term last trumpet as a description for defining a period of time when rapture is to occur?
In verse 51 and 52 above we see the words Mystery, Last Trump and the word raised. Paul obviously is talking about a resurrection here of believers otherwise he would not use the word RAISED in respect to the dead. He is also talking about the end of the church age.

Go in peace with God
DW
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Eddielee
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2004, 12:26:04 PM »



Since this scripture is speaking on one of the mysteries of God (Rapture) and Paul says it will occur at the last trumpet. Where and when does this trumpet occur in the book of Revelation?
Paul doesn't say first, second, or third trumpet, but last, which is the seventh. The key words are LAST TRUMPET and MYSTERY. Remember, in the book of Revelation the last trumpet is the seventh.

I disagree; I do not think the last trumpet spoken of by Paul is the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Paul says the the trumpet is a trumpet of God:
1 Thes 4:16-For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God

Looking at Zechariah gives us a better description of what the trumpet call of God is:
Zechariah 9:
14 Then the LORD will appear over them;
his arrow will flash like lightning.
The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet;
he will march in the storms of the south,
15 and the LORD Almighty will shield them.
They will destroy
and overcome with slingstones.
They will drink and roar as with wine;
they will be full like a bowl
used for sprinkling the corners of the altar.
16 The LORD their God will save them on that day
as the flock of his people.
They will sparkle in his land
like jewels in a crown.

It seems like the trumpet of God could very well be a trumpet blown by God himself, not by an angel as in the 7th trump of Revelation.

If the last trumpet spoken of by Paul is the 7th trumpet of Revelation then saints must be on earth during the wrath of God, (the events of the first 6 trumps); unless God shields his people in someway from the first 6 trumpets this cannot happen, because the wrath of God will never touch his people:
1 Thes 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, if the 7th trump is the last trump, then the saints will have to wait alot longer for the rapture then Jesus said they would, because he said it would come immidiately after the sun is darkened, the moon is red and the stars fall from the sky:
Matthew 24:29-
"Immediately after the distress of those days
   " 'the sun will be darkened,
       and the moon will not give its light;
   the stars will fall from the sky,
       and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


In Revelation this event happens in chapter 6:
12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Thus the rapture should happen very soon after this event. While the 7th trumpet is months down the road, following the massive events of the first 6, Jesus didn't say anything about going through those events, only to wait for him to appear after the events of the 6th seal.

If this interpretation of what Jesus said is correct, and aligned with Revelation's chronology, the saints should be raptured in chapter 6 or 7, right after the sun is darkened, for the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy; as we see in chapter six, the wrath of God is beginning:

15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"


So is there any evidence for a rapture in Revelation after this event? After the sun is darkened and before the 1st trumpet sounds bringing the wrath of God...

Revelation 7:
13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
15And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So there is some evidence for the rapture here between chapters 6 and 7, much more evidence then for it happening in chapter 4 or in chapter 11 with the 7th trumpet. This is the simple logical conclusion. (the prewrath view.)
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2004, 12:12:41 PM »

Eddielee quote...

Quote
I disagree; I do not think the last trumpet spoken of by Paul is the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Paul says the the trumpet is a trumpet of God:
1 Thes 4:16-For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God

 I agree with you here Eddielee. I tried to explain this also in another post.

 1 Thes 4:16 is the last time you will find God Himself sounding the trump. This is where the Rapture happens, and it coordinates with Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 This is the final place in Revelation where God sounds His trumpet also, and the sound "were of a trumpet talking with me which said, Come up hither"


 Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.  


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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2004, 04:28:23 PM »

Revelation is not in chronological order, but a devinely God inspired jigsaw puzzle.
  The 7th angel sounds his trumpet in victory of the 2 witnesses dying and ascending into heaven. I think this symbololises the death of Christ, the 2 bodies representing law/prophet, spiritual Moses/Elijah of which Christ was both(read zechariah 4 and 6). The 7th angel isn't necessarily the last trump and there are 6 before this one setting up for the wraths and plagues to come.
   In chapt 5 it shows a "a Lamb that had been slain". This has to be past as that is how Christ would have appeared after His resurrection.

reve 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.   12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them...15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become [the kingdoms] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!".

 reve 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
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Galatian 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love [is] the fulfillment of the law.
Bronzesnake
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« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2004, 10:42:42 PM »

Revelation is not in chronological order, but a devinely God inspired jigsaw puzzle.
  The 7th angel sounds his trumpet in victory of the 2 witnesses dying and ascending into heaven. I think this symbololises the death of Christ, the 2 bodies representing law/prophet, spiritual Moses/Elijah of which Christ was both(read zechariah 4 and 6). The 7th angel isn't necessarily the last trump and there are 6 before this one setting up for the wraths and plagues to come.
   In chapt 5 it shows a "a Lamb that had been slain". This has to be past as that is how Christ would have appeared after His resurrection.

reve 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.   12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them...15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become [the kingdoms] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!".

 reve 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

  Revelation is in chronological order. The two witnesses are not symbols, they are literal.

 As far your assertion...
 
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In chapt 5 it shows a "a Lamb that had been slain". This has to be past as that is how Christ would have appeared after His resurrection

 In one chapter Christ is described as a Lion and a Lamb.
 The reason being is that is shows Christ's qualifications and equipment for the work He is about to do, based upon that which He has done. The following verses describe Christ's qualifications by showing Him as a Lamb and a Lion.

Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?  


 Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.  


 Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.  


 Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.  


Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.  


Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.  

 

 As a lamb, He sacrificed Himself for mankind. As a Lion He destroys evil, redeems mankind and the earth. The third description of Christ found in Revelation depicts Him in His glorified state, and this qualifies Him finally as King of Kings and Lord of Lords fit to rule and judge the universe for eternity.
That is why we have these different descriptions of Jesus. They are not meant to represent the two witnesses or anything other than to show His qualifications to do what He has, is, and will complete.

 
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Revelation is not in chronological order

 Revelation is in chronological order, however, chapters 4 through 17 are happening simultaneously. Here's how they occur.

 Chapters 4 through 11 show what is going on in Heaven...
At the exact same time chapters 12 through 16 lets us see what is happening on earth at the exact same time...

 Chapters 17 and 18 deal with what is happening during the same time period with the false church that satan set up which existed through the years and finally became satan's instrument in the persecution of the tribulation saints.

 So although some events from Revelation are happening simultaneously, they are still in chronological order.

 

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« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2004, 11:28:22 AM »

Revelation has nothing to do with the whole "world", but a Great Holy City being destroyed by a gentile army.
    Jerusalem in that age was called numerous pagan names by God in the OT, to many for me to quote here (Isaiah 1 as one example).
     It is a jewish city being destroyed, so if you want to see it as a worldwide holocaust, I guess you can.
   Babylon represented both the roman gentiles and Jerusalem, and the wounded head represented revived babylon. If revelation is future, then a "temple" will have to be built in "babylon", then babylon rebuilt.
   Sorry, but this is the way I interpret thru the spirit and why my conviction for the truth in the Words of the Bible is so strong. So I see revelation as the fulfillment of both God's and Christ's promise to destroy the synagogue of "satan" that were persecuting the saints, then later, Rome was sacked in 410ad, just as prophecied.

Ezekiel 4:1 "You also, son of man, take a clay tablet and lay it before you, and portray on it a city, Jerusalem. 2 "Lay siege against it, build a siege wall against it, and heap up a mound against it; set camps against it also, and place battering rams against it all around. 3 "Moreover take for yourself an iron plate, and set it [as] an iron wall between you and the city. Set your face against it, and it shall be besieged, and you shall lay siege against it. This [will be] a sign to the house of Israel. 4 " Lie also on your left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel(10 tribes) upon it. [According] to the number of the days that you lie on it, you shall bear their iniquity. 5 "For I have laid on you the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, 390 days; so you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. 6 "And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah(2 tribes) forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year. 7 "Therefore you shall set your face toward the siege of Jerusalem; your arm [shall be] uncovered, and you shall prophesy against it. 8 "And surely I will restrain you so that you cannot turn from one side to another till you have ended the days of your siege.
IF YOU ADD 40YRS TO THE ANNOTING OF the "Messiah" AT AGE 30, THAT WOULD BE 70AD(2TRIBES OF JUDAH/BEAST OUT OF THE EARTH?)
IF YOU ADD 390 YRS TO "Messiah" AT AGE 30 THAT WOULD BE 420AD (10 TRIBES OF ISRAEL/BEAST OUT OF THE SEA?).
The West Roman Empire grew steadily weaker. The Vandals, Visigoths, and other Germanic peoples invaded Spain, Gaul, and northern Africa. In 410 AD the Visigoths looted Rome. The fall of the empire is often dated 476. That year, the Germanic chieftain Odoacer forced Romulus Augustulus, the last ruler of the empire, from the throne. Germanic chiefs had already begun to carve up the empire into several kingdoms. The East Roman Empire survived as the Byzantine Empire until 1453, when the Turks captured Constantinople.
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Galatian 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love [is] the fulfillment of the law.
Bronzesnake
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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2004, 01:39:34 AM »

IHIT...

Quote
Revelation has nothing to do with the whole "world", but a Great Holy City being destroyed by a gentile army.
    Jerusalem in that age was called numerous pagan names by God in the OT, to many for me to quote here (Isaiah 1 as one example).
    It is a jewish city being destroyed, so if you want to see it as a worldwide holocaust, I guess you can.
  Babylon represented both the roman gentiles and Jerusalem, and the wounded head represented revived babylon. If revelation is future, then a "temple" will have to be built in "babylon", then babylon rebuilt.
  Sorry, but this is the way I interpret thru the spirit and why my conviction for the truth in the Words of the Bible is so strong. So I see revelation as the fulfillment of both God's and Christ's promise to destroy the synagogue of "satan" that were persecuting the saints, then later, Rome was sacked in 410ad, just as prophecied.

 Babylon was and is in the process of being rebuilt my friend. Saddam Hussain spent billions rebuilding the ancient city and the rebuilding continues. As far as the temple being rebuilt in Babylon...Who told you the temple was to be built there?

 The temple mount is in Jerusalem, and that's where it will be rebuilt. There are priests being trained as we speak in all aspects of the building of the temple. Did you know that these priests feet must never touch the ground, and they may only lay their feet on the floor inside the temple? There was special flooring built for them to stand on while they take the instructions. Here is another amazing fact that you may enjoy.
 There is a special oil that must be sprinkled on the ground and in the temple in order to complete the specific blessings that are required in order to legitimize the temple. The only trouble is that the specific tree which the oil was extracted from is no longer in existence having become extinct over a thousand years ago. No one had any of the oil need to bless the temple. Then a miraculous event occurred. Recently, a boy was exploring in some caves in Israel, and he came across a jar which contained a curious small vase within. When the contents were analyzed Jewish scientists were amazed to find that it was a small jar of the oil which was needed, and enough of the hardened oil was present that they were able to reconstitute enough to use in the temple!

 Is God involved here? or just another amazing coincidence?
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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2004, 10:11:03 PM »

Hmmm. Someone isn't reading something right in revelation.
  If you say revelation is in order, you are very badly mistaken my friend.
   There is a temple being measured and 2 witnesses being sent, all in the same paragraph in chapt 11. If you take revelation literally, you will never understand it, as it is in the same jewish symbology and figuratism and most of the rest of the bible is.
    The beast of the sea are the gentile 10 scattered tribes. The beast of the earth are the 2 southern tribes (Jerusalem).
   The 7 churches represent the 7 heads. The 2 witnesses represent "Christ" as law/prophet, spiritual Moses/Elijah (not actual "bodies").
  Once you understand the sybolism presented in revelation, and what God's plan was in the OT, you will see revelation as the destruction of Jerusalem/"babylon", the old heaven and earth of that jewish age, and the new heaven and earth of the Holy Spirit reigning now in us.
   There is no other biblical way to interpret it, unless you want to force some kind of weird rapture into it, which I don't see.
    This is how I see it and how I presented to others that also see it like that. How the heck did a "rapture" thing ever get started?
     
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Galatian 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love [is] the fulfillment of the law.
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