Please explain 2Cor 12:7

[John the Baptist]

John-

Oh, I thought it was hilarious!  You have to understand, I was reading "Why Christianity Must Change or Die" for a class, and writing a 20 page reaction paper to it.  It was kind of like a thesis.  I spent several weeks pouring over that shoddy piece of speculative "scholarship" and had found so much of what he had to say completely ridiculous.  The man relies on sources which have been discounted for decades, and then adds his own shaky ideas to the mix, to come up with a completely worthless set of arguments.  So when I read that he thought Paul was a repressed homosexual, it was the straw that broke the camel's back and I did think it was immensely funny, only because it was so ridiculous.  

And yes, the argument he put forth was fairly well put together, but relied too much on pop psychology and shoddy linguistics to be
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John here:
I will break into the sentence with  a correction of 'much use' to NO USE.
Sounds like the study of today is a waste of time? You young folk have it tough enough without 'spending several weeks of going over this piece of shoddy scholarship'!

Imagine of Eve telling Christ that she went to the forbidden tree in the garden to  research the ex/covering cherub that was at one time over Gods Ark in the throne room in heaven to see if she might learn some things? Or that she was just inquisitive?

Surely, time is short! See 2 Tim. 3:1-*5.
---John
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 of much use.  

[TwasGrace]

Thanks everyone.  I wasn't sure if I was missing a scripture somewhere that possibly revealed the "thorn".  I understand that it teaches us a mighty lesson in humbling ourselves to our Lord.  Here's the main reason I asked:  I have a family member that believes in Jesus and has given his life to Him...baptized...goes to church regularly.. and is involved in the church in many ways... But, he also (occasionally..every year or so) will struggle with his old addictions.  Drinking and uppers.  When opproached about it, he brings up Paul's "thorn".  I think he uses it as an excuse.  He returns to Jesus for help every time and overcomes the problem...but only to have it creep back again in a year or so.  It is very embarrasing and shamful for him, and I feel that sometimes the guilt he feels over it keeps him from repenting and trusting in God sooner than he does. Any comments would be appreciated!

By His Grace Alone~

[Shiro]

Another thorn in Paul's side was his blindness, due to the light of Jesus christ as He asked why Paul was persecuting Him. That lasted a long time, and Paul even credited some people's kindness by saying that they would be willing to give him their eyes, were it possible.

[John the Baptist]

Thanks everyone.  I wasn't sure if I was missing a scripture somewhere that possibly revealed the "thorn".  I understand that it teaches us a mighty lesson in humbling ourselves to our Lord.  Here's the main reason I asked:  I have a family member that believes in Jesus and has given his life to Him...baptized...goes to church regularly.. and is involved in the church in many ways... But, he also (occasionally..every year or so) will struggle with his old addictions.  Drinking and uppers.  When opproached about it, he brings up Paul's "thorn".  I think he uses it as an excuse.  He returns to Jesus for help every time and overcomes the problem...but only to have it creep back again in a year or so.  It is very embarrasing and shamful for him, and I feel that sometimes the guilt he feels over it keeps him from repenting and trusting in God sooner than he does. Any comments would be appreciated!
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John here:
Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 tells me that going back into [open sin] again is not Christ's plan for us! (Heb. 6:6) We have been 'rescued' [IF] we have been Born Agan?? (1 Cor. 6:11 for past/tense)

If one goes back to the slim pit, perhaps he should re/read Saul's TOTAL submission experience of asking the Master.. WHAT WILT THOU HAVE ME TO DO? Salvation IS a two party agreement, ALL PROVISION HAS BEEN MADE BY CHRIST FOR OUR STEADFASTNESS! But--- it 'still' is our decision to use HIS PROVISION!! See 1 Cor. 10:13.

That is why we see the OPENLY BREAKING of the Ten Commandments having such an evil effect today. They SURELY are being taught that one is UNDER GRACE to do so, so, don't worry, huh? James 2:8-12 for the real Truth!

We can 'ALL' still do as we WILL! Think of the desire to be that of another sin, instead of addictions?? Use murder as the thought, do you think that he might think that, that sin was just an overpowering addiction? Yet, [we] have NO IDEA of our little KNOWN sin amounting to much, such as the weekly violating of the Lord's True Sabbath day by keeping a man made tradition. Mark 7:7.

Now, I realize that we are told that there is a sin that easily besets us, yet, I do not believe that the reproach of open sin of Heb. 6:6 is one of these. I think that they are the Psalms 19:13 ones of non/presumption. We will never know how close David came to his END? Or Saul for that matter? See Gen. 4:7 for the one who did MATURELY do so! Can you see James 1:15 in both start to finish?

The poor chap that you are telling us about, is most likely Baptist in teaching, with their false Doctrine of once saved always saved, and ONLY BELIEVE? But if that was truth, what difference does it make?  
Matt. 28:20 was never believed or taught to mean much, huh?

If a person could just grasp what Saul (Paul) was COMMANDED by Christ to do??? Christ did not SPEAK the Word, 'RISE, RECEIVE THY SIGHT'! He sent him to the VERY ones that he had been killing! And he was to join THESE ONES in Baptism & MEMBERSHIP, PLUS to have his sight restored. why?

The ONLY WAY TO BE BORN AGAIN IS FOR 'TOTAL' SPIRITUAL SUICIDE! LORD, WHAT WILL YOU HAVE ME [TO DO] Acts 5:32

And, yes, I know that most 'only believe', and are miserable in their profession, like your friend! But that is NOT Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant doctrine!

---John

By His Grace Alone~

[TwasGrace]

Thanks for your reply John.  He was raised Baptist.  I hope I can get through to him with God's help.

In His Love,
TwasGrace

[Symphony]

Hi TwasGrace.  Seems ultimately, he's the one who has to let it go.  I wonder if prodding him about it though will help.

Sometimes you can set circumstances up to help them "see"--and of course with prayer for that person, too!!

Sometimes other people such as you mention are put there for our learning as much as for their own.  Maybe your friend there is YOUR thorn!!  

(hehe)

[TwasGrace]

Hi TwasGrace.  Seems ultimately, he's the one who has to let it go.  I wonder if prodding him about it though will help.

Sometimes you can set circumstances up to help them "see"--and of course with prayer for that person, too!!

Sometimes other people such as you mention are put there for our learning as much as for their own.  Maybe your friend there is YOUR thorn!!  

(hehe)

Of course I agree that ultimately, by God's Grace, he's the one that has to "let it go".  I was only questioning whether using the "Thorn" as an excuse was "appropriate" so to speak.  Also, by NO means, do I "prod" my family member.  He seeks prayer and guidance from us, and we continue to do so. Lest we forget that we ALL fall short of the Glory of God. I'm thankful he shares his burden, as we all should do.  I have seen God Almighty Himself put circumstances in his path to help him "see", but my family member will come to know in God's time...noone else's. He is certainly not my "thorn"...he is my brother in Christ that I will continue to edify as the Bible commands us to do with one another.  Which is to be done in a gentle, kind, and loving way.  Something that is shown here...most of the time. (ha ha).

[doc]

Hey TwasGrace,

Hope you still look back here for input.

A fellow on another thread said he felt like Job and my take on Paul's thorn was part of my answer,  The Greek sheds some light on the extent of Paul's problem.  Check out:  http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=12146.0  (reply #4)

Now to some followup.

I too have surmised what Paul's thorn was, but Scripture in silent here for a reason.  The real issue is not what it is, but why did he get it !!  God was dealing with a very common problem Paul shared with most Christians - PRIDE.  I agree with the commentary below and deal with my own pride daily.  I don't want any more thorns in my life, thank you God - you made your point.

[And lest I should be exalted] " Lest I should be spiritually proud; lest I should become self-confident and vain, and suppose that I was a special favorite of Heaven. If Paul was in danger of spiritual pride, who is not? If it was necessary for God to adopt some special measures to keep him humble, we are not to be surprised that the same thing should occur in other cases. There is abundant reason to believe that Paul was naturally a proud man. He was by nature self-confident; trusting in his own talents and attainments, and eminently ambitious. When he became a Christian, therefore, one of his besetting sins would be pride; and as he had been especially favored in his call to the apostleship; in his success as a preacher; in the standing which he had among the other apostles, and in the revelations imparted to him, there was also special danger that he would become self-confident and proud of his attainments.

There is no danger that more constantly besets Christians, and even eminent Christians, than pride. There is no sin that is more subtile, insinuating, deceptive; none that lurks more constantly around the heart and that finds a more ready entrance, than pride. He who has been characterized by pride before his conversion will be in special danger of it afterward; he who has eminent gifts in prayer, or in conversation, or in preaching, will be in special danger of it; he who is eminently successful will be in danger of it; and he who has any extraordinary spiritual comforts will be in danger of it. Of this sin he who lives nearest to God may be in most special danger; and he who is most eminent in piety should feel that he also occupies a position where the enemy will approach him in a sly and subtile manner, and where he is in special danger of a fall. Possibly the fear that he might be in danger of being made proud by the flattery of his friends may have been one reason why Paul kept this thing concealed for 14 years; and if people wish to keep themselves from the danger of this sin, they should not be forward to speak even of the most favored moments of their communion with God."   (from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database Copyright © 1997, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Pride is idolatry, TwasGrace, and you know what happens to idolaters.

Your friend needs to learn his lesson if the thorn really is from God and not use it as an excuse if it isn't.  Self inflicted habits rarely resemble thorns.  Tell him to grow up !!

doc

[linssue55]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and really enjoy it.  I hope some of you can enlighten me on a piece of scripture that I don't understand.
It is 2 Corinthians 12:7. Please help me to understand this particular sentence.   "...I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from getting proud..."

Thanks,
TwasGrace

Hope this helps.  The thorn in the Flesh.

7~~Therefore, for the purpose that
I should be not arrogant
by means of the abundance of the revelations,
there was given to me
- for my benefit -
a thorn in the flesh . . .
an angel from the source of Satan . . .
that he might keep on 'punching' me . . .
that I might not be arrogant.

{Note: Paul knew more doctrine then anyone else and it could become a source of arrogance for him. Satan was permitted by God to have a fallen angel keep Paul in pain.}

[Soldier4Christ]

God does have His ways of keeping us humble, reminding us that without Him we are nothing and can do nothing.

[Shammu]

God does have His ways of keeping us humble, reminding us that without Him we are nothing and can do nothing.

AMEN

[airIam2worship]

And another Amen.