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Shammu
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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2004, 02:14:47 AM »

Also, it has been 1,934 years since Rome's legions set fire to Jerusalem's Temple, and sent the Jewish people into centuries of wanderings, humiliation, and bleeding.

Why this calamity happened, and how it could have been avoided, remains debatable. The Sages assumed the Temple was lost due to divine action, which stemmed in turn from the Jews' loss of respect for God, and for each other. Historians focus on the Jews' lack of social cohesion and political realism.

We have no sagelike pretensions. But it is important to think carefully and responsibly about Jewish action, then and now.

First, let there be no doubt about what happened two millennia ago. The Jews, faced with the Roman Empire's advance eastward, initially tolerated it, but ultimately tried to resist it, and failed. In challenging the Romans, the Jews generally failed to enlist the Jews of the Diaspora, who already comprised the majority of the nation.

The Jews of Judea themselves were also far from united about the cause, which many, particularly among the elite, opposed. Some, like Galilee commander Josephus Flavius, defected, and ended up resented by subsequent generations. Others, most notably Rabbi Yohanan Ben-Zakai, left the cause at later stages, when they soberly figured it was lost. They were later instrumental in preparing the Jews for a future of religious observance without political sovereignty.

Still, the bottom line of the war was that Judea blundered fatally: first, by picking a fight with an enemy it could not possibly defeat; second, by failing to muster the kind of solidarity that is indispensable for any national victory. The fact that Jerusalem's zealots and moderates were fighting each other even while they were being besieged by the Romans is mind-boggling. Judea had become awash with a kind of messianic zeal that made many ignore the military balance of power that was so obviously against them. During the Roman siege the Sicarii zealots knifed moderates and torched strategic food stocks that could have saved lives in the besieged city.

In recent years, Israel has been threatened by two kinds of zealotry. There was the messianic zealotry of Oslo, which held not only that a new and wondrous dispensation was at hand, but that the prudent reservations of half the country could be dismissed and indeed scorned as so much reactionary guff. More recently, we have seen another brand of zealots, who seek to impose their vision on a country that is in many ways ambivalent about (and often hostile to) the Greater Israel project. Reports hopefully baseless about present-day fanatics seeking to attack our elected leaders in order to stop the move toward disengagement bring to mind our forefathers' self-destructive excesses.

Lurking behind all this is all too often a mentality that insists on blurring the lines between religious and national idealism, and the actual wishes of the people and their elected leaders. It is a mentality that characterizes fundamentalists like former convict and Jewish underground activist Yehuda Etzion, who this week openly called for the removal of the mosques from the Temple Mount.

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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2004, 02:16:51 AM »

By contrast, the way Isaiah the prophet saw it, the "mountain of the Lord's house" was not to be any faith's exclusive province, but "shall be established in the top of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills, and all the nations shall flow unto it." Even Jews who currently find it difficult to accept Judaism's universal message will surely be happy to see God "judge among the nations and decide among many peoples," as the Bible promises us He ultimately will do, from Jerusalem.

Surely, it would be easier to think in such ways had those flocking to Jerusalem's mosques been themselves more tolerant and pluralistic. Yet the very fact that some Muslims have given themselves over to zealotry ought to remind us of the perils of repeating the worst mistakes of our past. We tried zealotry once before. The terrible history we commemorate today is proof enough that we should not try it again.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1090812504570&apage=1
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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2005, 04:46:48 PM »

source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4424185.stm




Thousands of Israeli police have surrounded the Temple Mount in Jerusalem amid fears that Jewish extremists plan to storm the site.
The operation follows reports that extremists hope to thwart Israel's withdrawal from Gaza by inflaming tensions with Palestinians.

Palestinian militants say they will end a truce if Jewish protesters enter the al-Aqsa mosque built on Temple Mount.

The Temple Mount is known as the Haram al-Sharif (Noble Sanctuary) to Muslims.

Last month, Israel's Channel Two TV station showed a video that it said showed plotters, including rabbis and far-right extremists, discussing ways to occupy the site, which is holy in both Judaism and Islam.

The meeting of representatives from 30 different groups took place at a secret location in Jerusalem's Old City, the TV station said.

Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei appealed to Israel to stop any action against the compound, saying it would cause the region to "explode".

Large numbers of Israeli police were deployed around the Temple Mount compound in mid-February for fear of an attack by Jewish extremists.

Significance

Opponents of the Gaza withdrawal plan have been protesting in a number of ways, including blocking traffic on major roads causing massive jams.

Israel is due to withdraw all settlers and the troops that protect them from Gaza in July this year. Israel has occupied Gaza since 1967, and will retain control of the strip's external borders, airspace and coastline.

The Temple Mount compound, in the old city in East Jerusalem, covers an area of 35 acres.

The site is holy to Jews because it is the site of the First and Second Temple in ancient times. It is known in Jewish tradition as the "abode of God's presence".

It is also of deep religious, political and national significance to Palestinians and to Muslims around the world.
*********************************************

This isn't the first Israeli police have done this, but still interesting non the less.


Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2005, 04:14:01 PM »

I think it incredible that the Nation of Israel still has no Temple.Is the land really theirs,or not?What is the big delay?

I guess it is all up to the LORD and his timing.
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2005, 06:11:28 PM »

2nd Timothy,

Thanks, that was fascinating. The temple represents a time bomb that will most definitely explode, sooner or later.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 4:19  And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2005, 11:35:13 PM »

Hi all,

Just thought I'd toss in a little of my thinking on this one.  PeterAV, your question / comment: "Is the land really theirs,or not?What is the big delay?"  While simple in its asking, is perhaps one of the most complex geo-political querries in modern history.  While it is widely speculated that the site of the current al-asqa mosque / "dome of the rock" is also the site of the first two temples, it is very hard to say which nation holds the justifyable land claim.  The issue is all too often over-simplified by members of of the fundamentalist sects of all three abrahmic faiths.  It is particularily difficult for North Americans to jump into the fray, given our own history of taking land from its original inhabitants.  I have no Doubt that God's will will one day come to light regarding this particular site, but until then, I think it is an issue that ought to remain free of interferance from the Christian right.

thanks,

Thom
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nChrist
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2005, 01:38:28 PM »

Thommy,

The Christian Right, as you call them, have as much right to speak and be heard as anyone else. There's a lot of folks that would love it if Christians would shut up and be quiet, BUT IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN!

I, for one, will speak, vote, and stand for Biblical morals and values for the rest of my life. Further, nobody will be able to silence me, and there are millions that feel the same way I do.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2005, 02:29:54 PM »

I think it incredible that the Nation of Israel still has no Temple.Is the land really theirs,or not?What is the big delay?

I guess it is all up to the LORD and his timing.

Peter:
Scripture details very well the Lord's timing and timeline in re the temple mount.
Just FYI, there is a group in Israel anticipating the rebuilding of the temple. The call themselves the "Temple Mount Faithful".  They have currently rebuilt all of the utensils and lavers required for temple sacrifice, and have re-created all of the clothing to be worn by the priests and high-priest, including the Urim and Thummim.  They have also (as of last year) certified as kosher a red heifer, (the first one born in Israel in 2,000 years), whose blood is part of the required "cleansing and dedication of the temple" ceremony.  Also, complete detailed architectural plans have been drawn, and certain woods required have been obtained.  

It is widely believed among prophecy watchers that the next move is for the rise of anti-christ to a position where he will be able to "guarantee" the safety of Israel, thus removing any roadblock to the Hebrews being able to rebuild the temple.  This will then be in line with both Daniel and Revelation, and will be the earmark of the beginning of the 7 year tribulation period.

I don't think I'll be here to watch the temple rebuilt.  Grin, even though I do expect it to happen within the next 10 years or so.
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« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2005, 10:10:31 PM »

Hi BEP,

In my post, I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that you do not have the right to your opinions or the right to voice those opinions.  I personally, am a huge advocate of first amendment rights, and would not dream of arguing that you should not have the right to speak your mind.  With that said, I think there is a time and a place for the militant right-wing of Christinanity (I'm not neccesarily suggesting that you are in this camp) to spout their rehtoric, and there is a time when their particular brand of preaching is counter-productive.  In the matter of the al-asqa mosque, I think the latter aplies.  Considering there are some "Christians" who have been linked to terrorist plots to destroy the mosque so that a new temple can be built, I think Christians of any ilk ought to be quite cautious in their rehtoric in this specific case.

In the end, these are just my thoughts on the matter.  You are more than entitled to your own views, just as I am entitled to challenge those views.  As the Enlightenment philosopher Voltaire once penned: "I may not alwas agree with what you have to say, but I'll fight for your right to say it."

thanks,

Thom
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Reba
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« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2005, 12:53:57 AM »

Israel does not have the land promised to Abe.


Gen 15:18

18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
KJV



They had it.

Josh 21:43-45

43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
KJV

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« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2005, 07:52:53 AM »

Hello Sister Reba,

It's nice to see you on the forum. We missed you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
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« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2005, 08:25:20 AM »

Thommy,

The Temple in Jerusalem will be restored at God's appointed time, and nothing will be able to stop it. The same will be true of other Bible prophecy that will most certainly be fulfilled. Political views and agreement or disagreement will mean absolutely nothing. No power on earth will be able to stop it, delay it, or hasten it.

Will there be wars that will be more horrible than the world has ever known? YES! - according to the Holy Bible there will be. Again, no power on earth will be able to stop it. There will be a period of false peace, and all will start to unfold. Christian opinions and anti-Christian opinions will have no effect at all, not even by an hour or a second. It will simply happen at God's appointed time.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

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« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2005, 12:37:12 AM »

Temple Mount shut to non-Muslims
By ETGAR LEFKOVITS

Citing concerns of renewed violence on the eve of
Israel's pullout from the Gaza Strip, Jerusalem police announced Saturday that the Temple Mount will be shut to non-Muslims on Sunday as the nation marks Tisha Be'av and the destruction of the two ancient temples at the site.

The widely expected move, which was taken by Jerusalem police chief Cmdr. Ilan Franco and approved by Internal Security Minister Gideon Ezra, was made due to fears that Jewish ultra-nationalists, who might enter the site as part of a last-minute attempt to thwart the disengagement plan, could provoke clashes between Arabs and Jews.

Concern over Arab disturbances has also prompted
police to once again bar all Muslim men under the age of 45 from entering the ancient compound.

Tens of thousands of Jews were expected to flock to the Western Wall during the 25-hour fast day starting Saturday night, with thousands of police officers positioned all around the Old City to maintain the peace.

A police chopper and newly-installed closed-circuit TV at the site will help police, who have set up a temporary HQ in the area to monitor the situation throughout the day.

The Temple Mount has long been a flash-point of
violence in the past, and Israeli security officials have repeatedly expressed concern that Israeli far-right extremists may try to carry out an attack there in order to sabotage this week's withdrawal from Gaza.

The recent shooting attack by a Jewish terrorist on a bus in northern Israel, in which four Israeli Arabs were killed, has only added to the tensions at the Temple Mount, with various Islamic leaders calling on their followers to flock to the site on Sunday to "protect" the mosques.

In years past, the site has been repeatedly closed
down to non-Muslim visitors on Tisha Be'av
considered the darkest day on the Jewish calendar including just last year.

The former head of the Shin Bet, Avi Dichter, has
cited the possibility of an assassination attempt on the life of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and the threat of an attack by Jewish extremists on the Temple Mount as two of the gravest concerns among security officials ahead of the Israeli withdrawal.

With the walled-in compound heavily guarded by police who repeatedly bar such Israeli fringe groups like the Temple Mount Faithful or the ultra-nationalist Revava organization from entering the compound security officials have warned in the past that Jewish extremists might try to fire a missile or a rocket at the mosque compound.

Several months ago, three Jewish extremists were
questioned by police for allegedly planning to fire a missile at the Mount, but charges were never filed against them since they changed their minds even before they were arrested.

Separately, Jerusalem police were also preparing for a large right-wing protest outside the prime minister's residence on Sunday, after settler leaders announced their intention to form a human chain around the Jerusalem government compound.


To understand the significance behind this day to the Jews I am also posting the following article.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 02:42:30 PM by DreamWeaver » Logged

Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
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« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2005, 12:38:26 AM »

Aug. 12, 2005 4:26
Background: Tisha Be'av - from sadnesss to hope
By SAM SER

"For this," wrote the prophet Jeremiah, "our heart is faint, and our sight has grown dim: for Mount Zion, which is desolate, and foxes walking upon it."

The destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE by the Romans under the command of Titus, which Jeremiah foretold and then witnessed, is but one of the many tragedies to have befallen the Jewish people on Tisha Be'av the ninth day of the Hebrew month of Av which will be observed from Saturday evening through Sunday evening.

The First Temple was also destroyed on that day in 586 BCE, at the hands of Nebuzaradan, the captain of the guard of Babylonian king
Nebuchadnezzar. The last stronghold of the Bar Kochba rebellion was captured on Tisha Be'av in 135 CE, and on that date a year later, the Roman emperor Hadrian rebuilt Jerusalem as a pagan city which the Jews were forbidden to enter.

According to tradition, Tisha Be'av was also the day on which it was decreed that the Israelites, after the Exodus, would not enter the Promised Land following the sin of the spies. In addition, the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492 is said to have occurred on Tisha Be'av.

The day has become a symbol of Jewish national suffering and misfortune, marked by somber prayer and avoidance of all manner of physical pleasures, including a strict fast and abstentions from bathing and shaving. Many Jews even refrain from travel on Tisha Be'av, as it is regarded as an inauspicious day.

Despite the sorrow entailed in the commemoration of all these events, there are those who have found cause on Tisha Be'av to recall a hopeful tale. As told in the Talmud, the great sage Rabbi Akiva and three of his colleagues were approaching Jerusalem; upon seeing a fox dart out from the ruins of the Temple, the three wept, while Akiva laughed.

His colleagues were incredulous, noting the verse from Lamentations quoted above. Yet Akiva responded by quoting a verse from the prophet
Zecharia: "Old men and old women will once again sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each with his staff in his hand because of advanced age, and the streets of the city will be filled with boys and girls playing in its streets."

Explained Akiva, "The Holy One, blessed be He, has declared that just as the first prophecies have been fulfilled, so shall the latter. I am
joyous that the first have already come to pass, for the latter shall surely be fulfilled in the future."

Answered the rabbis, "Akiva, you have comforted us, Akiva, you have comforted us!"

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Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
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« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2005, 02:11:30 AM »

Web cam for the Western Wall enjoy, I've spent quite a few hours watching.
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