TRINITY??

[jeneen30]

Hello all. Brand new to the ChristiansUniteForums. I grew up in a religion that a lot of people call a cult. Because of the teachings I grew up with I am currently struggling with the issue that Christ IS God. I totally accept that He is the Son of God and have no problems with his life on earth, death or resurrection. But need scriptural guidance with the Trinity being ONE.

[JudgeNot]

jeneen30,
Which 'cult' did you grow up in?

[AJ]

Hello all. Brand new to the ChristiansUniteForums. I grew up in a religion that a lot of people call a cult. Because of the teachings I grew up with I am currently struggling with the issue that Christ IS God. I totally accept that He is the Son of God and have no problems with his life on earth, death or resurrection. But need scriptural guidance with the Trinity being ONE.

Why are you having a hard time worshiping? Maybe you feel that there is more than one God...if you separate the two then you take the Father out of the Son and the Son out of the Father...Jesus clearly said that he was in the Father and the Father was in him. And there is a lot of scripture for worship of Christ.

Mat 2:11  And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Mat 8:2  And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Mat 9:18  While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Mat 14:33  Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Mat 15:25  Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

So here we have people worshiping Christ and not once did he tell them not to. The mystery of godliness is a great mystery. All power in heaven and in earth is given to the son... so does that leave the Father powerless? No..the Father is in the son and the son is in the Father.

So if your still not satisfied ,worship both as one.

If the church  your in now just happens to be Pentecostal...
(not speaking for some of the ones on TV)

Dont leave it.. these people teach holiness like no other people i know.. and they also dont deny the power of God.. i have a sister who attends this church and she had a broken foot that was really bothering her, and one day she was sitting in a service and felt a warm feeling going down her body...that day she was completely healed

God Bless you

 

[jeneen30]

Thank you. Those scriptures helped a lot. I know I have read them many times but missed their true meaning. Thanks again.

[halfgospel]

hi jeneen,

i thought you might find this site of interest to you in your endeavour to break free from 'abbahite' teachings....

www.davidandgoliathministries.org

trust that it helps you,
yours in Christ,
Halfgospel

[jeneen30]

Thanks so much for the site. I was raised going to the Kingdon Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses. I just skimmed the site but have saved it in my faves and will go back to read it in detail whne the Easter rush is over later today. Thanks again.

[halfgospel]

you mentioned that you were indoctrined into the JW's.

that's interesting....we touch upon matters about the JW's on the website. you may well find it interesting. we ask that you read it with an open mind and a copy of a bible, perhaps KJV would be better than the JW version. the watchtower will never allow their members to find out that Jesus is Jehovah God. once their members find that out, they will lose all of them and all of their money too.

trust that you find the site a blessing.
Yours in Christ,
Halfgospel

[JudgeNot]

jeneen30,
Jesus and God are one.  Jesus IS God.  The JW does not believe that.  If you cannot believe that Jesus is God, then you cannot claim to be a Christian.

I will pray that the true Gospel reaches your heart,
JN

[jenn]

jeneen,

God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but one God.The Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit who is not the same person as the Father.
Scrpitures that are usually used to demonstrate that in the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed biblical.
njv(new king james version)
* matt28:19 Go  ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
* 2 Cor. 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
* Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
* mark1:10 And immediately,coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove."You are my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."


Does that mean Jesus is God?

The bible says Jesus is God in flesh.
*John1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
*John1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us


Jesus has two natures He is both God and man.

GOD

He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:2)
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)
He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15)
He knew all things (John 21:17)
He gives eternal life (John 20:28)
The fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9)


Man
He worshiped the Father (John 17)
He prayed to the Father (John 17:1)
He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5).
He was called Son of Man (John 19:35-37)
He was tempted (Matt. 4:1)
He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52)
He died (Rom. 5:
He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)

Can we pray to Jesus?

Yes. you can pray to any member of the trinity.
Jesus said in John 14:14, "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it."


         






 

[jenn]

Another Look at the Trinity ( cont)

     The Trinity can be a difficult concept to understand. Some think it is a logical contradiction. Others call it a mystery. Does the Bible teach it? Yes it does,  but that doesn't automatically make it easier to comprehend.
      The Trinity is defined as one God who exists in three eternal, simultaneous, and distinct persons known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Such a definition may suffice for some, but for others this explanation is insufficient.
      Therefore, to help understand the Trinity better, I offer the following analogy that, I think, is hinted at in Rom. 1:20: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made."
      Notice that this verse says God's attributes, power, and nature, can be clearly seen in creation. What does that mean? Should we be able to learn about God's attributes, power, and nature by looking at what He has made? Apparently, according to the Bible, this is possible.
      When a painter paints a picture, what is in him is reflected in the painting he produces. When a sculptor creates a work of art, it is from his heart and mind that the source of the sculpture is born. The work is shaped by his creative ability. The creators of art leave their marks, something that is their own, something that reflects what they are. Is this the same with God? Has God left His fingerprints on creation? Of course He has.

Creation

      Basically, the universe consists of three elements: Time, Space, and Matter. Each of these is comprised of three 'components.'
Time Past Present Future
Space Height Width Depth
Matter Solid Liquid Gas
         
  As the Trinitarian doctrine maintains, each of the persons of the Godhead is distinct, yet they are all each, by nature, God.
     With time, for example, the past is distinct from the present, which is distinct from the future. Each is simultaneous. Yet, they are not three 'times,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: time
      With space, height is distinct from width, which is distinct from depth, which is distinct from height. Yet, they are not three 'spaces,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: space.
      With matter, solid is not the same as liquid, which is not the same as gas, which is not the same as solid. Yet, they are not three 'matters,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: matter.
      Note that there are three sets of threes. In other words, there is a trinity of trinities. If we were to look at the universe and notice these qualities within it, is it fair to say that these are the fingerprints of God upon His creation? I think so. Not only is this simply an observation, but it is also a good source for an analogy of the Trinity.

A Criticism of Trinitarianism

     Some critiques of the Trinitarian doctrine say that the Trinity is really teaching three gods, not one. They will say that God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit would make three gods, since the Father plus the Son plus the Holy Spirit would make three. But this is not a logical necessity. Instead of adding, why not multiply? One times one times one equals one. Why must addition be the criteria by which the doctrine is judged? It need not be. Rather, the doctrine should stand or fall based upon biblical revelation, not human logic. Nevertheless, let me draw an analogy from creation itself to illustrate the doctrine of the Trinity.

An Analogy of the Trinity

      To continue with the observation about the Trinitarian nature of creation, I would like to use 'time' to illustrate the Trinity. Is the "past" plus the "present" plus the "future" a total of three times? Not at all. It simply is a representation of three distinct aspects of the nature of time: past, present, and future. Likewise, the Father and the Son and Holy Spirit are not three separate beings or entities, but three distinct persons in the one nature of the Godhead.
      One more comment about Jesus. All cults deny that Jesus is God, the creator of the universe, in flesh. Various objections are raised saying that Jesus could not be God, otherwise, He would be praying to Himself, etc. Let's work with the analogy above, and continue with 'time' as our illustration.
      Let's take 'present' and add to it human nature. Present, then, would have two natures: time and man. If 'present' were truly human then he would be able to communicate with us, tell us much, and we could see and touch him. But, because he is also 'time' by nature, he would be able to tell us both the past and the future as he manifested the 'time' nature within him. If 'present' then, communicated with the past and the future, it would not mean he was communicating with himself, but with the distinctions known as the past and the future.
      I know that this is only an analogy. But I think it is a good, though basic, illustration of God's nature as expressed in Trinitarian expression.

[Raphu]

I love that God is not limited to the dimensions of man. He even speaks of Himself as plural in Genesis. I think that man naturally tries to trim God down to our own size and dimension in order to understand and have power over Him without even being aware of it. It is our nature to sin and do this. We are unable to control much of the dimensions we are aware of such as time, yet God lives outside it in eternity and sees beginning to end at the same moment. Can such awesome power be confined to one body .....or what words can be found to wrap around and express what and who He is?
I am glad that He can be even more that what I can count on my fingers and toes, and I give Him all the glory and trust I can muster with my life. We are made after His image and not visa-versa.
Another good site with information that could help you is here:
http://www.carm.org/
They have lots of answers about the deity of Jesus Christ and other questions someone formerly JW might have.
I hope this helps some.

Genesis 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[LeeH]

Taketh these false eyes and you will see no lies.
See with ones heart and we will never be apart.
Amen

[Robert Sutherland]

You might also be interested in scholarly understandings of Trinity.  I would note how Richard of St.Victor explained Trinity in terms of love.

1. As a perfect being, God is all good. His goodness includes all love.

2. Love is inherently relational.

3. The meaningful relationships of love are I-self, I-thou, I-them.

4. The I-self relationship requires one person (self-love); the I-thou relationship, two persons (mutual love) and the I-them relationship, three persons (communal love).

5. Since God is the fullness of love, there must exist three persons in the Godhead.

6. Since God is a necessary being, a fourth person in the Godhead is not necessary for the fullness of love. Ockham's razor indicates you cannot multiply entities beyond necessity.

For Richard of St.Victor, three persons in one being God are necessary to understand how and why God is love; four are not. In God, all knowledge and all love is instanteous, involving no time at all.

You might profitably benefit from looking at Richard Swinburne's "The Christian God" (Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1994)

[toffe]

Maybe this site will be of help:

The Trinity Study Site

http://www.trinitystudy.com


Bless you.

[Matt]

Hi - I'm all for simple answers, and I skimmed through and noticed that this verse wasn't used. I hope it helps!

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

-Matt