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Author Topic: 'The Lord's Prayer': Version vs. Version  (Read 3026 times)
JudgeNot
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« on: March 24, 2004, 04:08:30 PM »

Although this is commonly called ‘The Lord’s Prayer’, it should be called “The Disciple’s Prayer”, since it is how the disciples were instructed by Jesus to pray.  However, that’s not my point.  Please compare the two versions below:

Mat. 6:9-13 (KJV)
After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.


Mat. 6:9-13 (NIV)
"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.


Notice something missing?  I’ve always been taught to begin and end all prayer with worship, and to always close my prayer (Amen!).  Why does the NIV leave out the final line of worship as well as the closure?  Can someone help me out here?

(FYI, Along the KJV, the AMP, NKJV, NASB and NLV all have the ending worship and closure.  But as the NIV, the NLT does not.)
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michael_legna
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2004, 04:54:32 PM »

Although this is commonly called ‘The Lord’s Prayer’, it should be called “The Disciple’s Prayer”, since it is how the disciples were instructed by Jesus to pray.  However, that’s not my point.  Please compare the two versions below:

Mat. 6:9-13 (KJV)
After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.


Mat. 6:9-13 (NIV)
"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.


Notice something missing?  I’ve always been taught to begin and end all prayer with worship, and to always close my prayer (Amen!).  Why does the NIV leave out the final line of worship as well as the closure?  Can someone help me out here?

(FYI, Along the KJV, the AMP, NKJV, NASB and NLV all have the ending worship and closure.  But as the NIV, the NLT does not.)


The reason is the doxology "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. " has been shown to have been added at a late date by some copier of the scriptures.  It does not appear in the older texts that the NIV relies on.

Nor did it appear in the texts used by Jerome to translate the Vulgate.  It also does not appear in the Pesh*tta nor in the Greek New Testament used by the Orthodox Churches throughout their long history.  The phrase simply was not in any commonly used Bibles until the Reformation when it was added based on the texts the Protestant translators got from Erasmus.

There is nothing wrong with including it at the end of the prayer as the prayer is meant as a template (pray like so) not a strict directive to pray only the following words.  But it is not inspired scripture, but most likely a fairly modern addition.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2004, 08:21:56 AM by michael_legna » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2004, 01:15:43 AM »

Although this is commonly called ‘The Lord’s Prayer’, it should be called “The Disciple’s Prayer”, since it is how the disciples were instructed by Jesus to pray.  However, that’s not my point.  Please compare the two versions below:

Mat. 6:9-13 (KJV)
After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.


Mat. 6:9-13 (NIV)
"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.


Notice something missing?  I’ve always been taught to begin and end all prayer with worship, and to always close my prayer (Amen!).  Why does the NIV leave out the final line of worship as well as the closure?  Can someone help me out here?

(FYI, Along the KJV, the AMP, NKJV, NASB and NLV all have the ending worship and closure.  But as the NIV, the NLT does not.)

After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.

This is the prayer I know.
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2004, 07:20:27 PM »

Used to be how you could tell a Catholic from a Protestant - Protestants say "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen" and Catholics don't.
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Reba
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2004, 10:43:39 PM »

Mat 6:14  For if ye doe forgiue men their trespasses, your heauenly Father will also forgiue you.
Mat 6:15  But if ye do not forgiue men their trespasses,, no more will your father forgiue you your trespaces.
Mat 6:16  Moreouer, when ye fast, looke not sowre as the hypocrites: for they disfigure their faces, that they might seeme vnto men to fast. Verely I say vnto you, that they haue their rewarde.


Judge the Geneva translation, which predates KJV does not have it.  
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« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2004, 05:45:13 PM »

What is called by the catholic church "the Lord's prayer" was never meant to be a prayer we were to pray. It is Jesus teaching the desciples HOW to pray; not WHAT to pray.
He is teaching them how to see the Father; how to come to Him in prayer; etc.
We do not get forgiven by saying this so called "Lord's prayer" a certain amount of times, nor saying the "hail Mary's" a certain amount of times. We get forgiven by coming to the Father, through Christ Jesus our Savior, and truly being repentant in our hearts.
To really read the Lord's prayer, read chapter 17 of John. That is the Lord's prayer for all of us.
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michael_legna
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2004, 07:10:06 PM »

What is called by the catholic church "the Lord's prayer" was never meant to be a prayer we were to pray. It is Jesus teaching the desciples HOW to pray; not WHAT to pray.
He is teaching them how to see the Father; how to come to Him in prayer; etc.
We do not get forgiven by saying this so called "Lord's prayer" a certain amount of times, nor saying the "hail Mary's" a certain amount of times. We get forgiven by coming to the Father, through Christ Jesus our Savior, and truly being repentant in our hearts.
To really read the Lord's prayer, read chapter 17 of John. That is the Lord's prayer for all of us.

You obviously don't understand the sacrament of reconcilliation as taught in the Catholic Church.  The Church does not teach that forgiveness has anything to with how many prayers one says.  Forgiveness is due solely to God's mercy.  He chooses to act through the leaders of the Church as Jesus established in John 20:23, but the priest is just serving as a vessel of honor meet for the masters use.  The prayers are said as a matter of discipline as the beginning of bringing forth works meet for repentance.

As for the Lord's Prayer not being a true prayer worthy of being repeated, that is nonsense.  Very early in the history of the Church Christians understood it as just that.

The Didache, which was written prior to the second century tells us -

8:2 Neither pray ye as the hypocrites, but as the Lord hath commanded in his gospel so pray ye: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done as in heaven so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debt, as we also forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil: for thine is the power, and the glory, for ever.

The idea that we should not pray just as Jesus taught is a very new invention of men.
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
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