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Author Topic: What's Romans 9 about?  (Read 2859 times)
Bill
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« on: May 13, 2003, 02:29:05 PM »

I have my own theories, but I wanted to ask the general public.  What is Paul's point in Romans 9?  Is it absolute predestination at the choice of God?  Or does Paul's argument about the majority of Jews lost in unbelief point to something different?  One more thing, if Paul is speaking of absolute predestination, why does Paul wrap up his argument by saying "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?  Not at all!"  If the unbelieving Jews were objects of wrath prepared for destruction before the foundation of the world, then why did Paul say they did not stumble beyond recovery?

All responses are sincerely appreciated.

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Bill
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Petro
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2003, 04:27:44 PM »

Bill asks ,  What about Romans 9


I have my own theories, but I wanted to ask the general public. What is Paul's point in Romans 9? Is it absolute predestination at the choice of God? Or does Paul's argument about the majority of Jews lost in unbelief point to something different? One more thing, if Paul is speaking of absolute predestination, why does Paul wrap up his argument by saying "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!" If the unbelieving Jews were objects of wrath prepared for destruction before the foundation of the world, then why did Paul say they did not stumble beyond recovery?

All responses are sincerely appreciated.

Thanks,
Bill

Bill,

I guess it depends on, how one understands, verses, 6-8, in my opinion, understanding these is crucial to understanding what Paul is speaking about, in this chapter.
6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


The Sovereignty of God and election, is the main focus in this chapter, and as one can see, by following verse 6; all of natural Israel is not all of Spiritual Israel, contrasting the children of the nation with the childrern of promise.  And of course verse 7, clarifies this clearly, they that are of the natural seed of Abraham and the result is they are not the children of the promise, because the seed in shall be called  in Isaac.

Verse 8, drives the point home, the natural seed of Abraham are not the children of God, because the children of  God (promise) are that seed.

So the question then is who are they??, Rom 4:16, has already told us, that they who are of the same faith as Abraham, are counted as the seed.

 How can they be identified,??  They do the works of Abraham, (Jhn 8:39)

So it stands to reason, one would ask;  What was Abraham's works.??

This is a fair question, Jesus said ;  This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 and the scripture says, this about Abraham,;

Rom 4

4:1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteouness.

So then, one can see Abraham was faithful to the Word of Jesus, he obeyed and believed and this is what the scripture says, was counted unto him, for righteousness.

So at verse 31 it says;

31  But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32  Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

They thought they could attain, righteouness by keeping-doing the Law, but we are told this is impossible, because the law, was never given so that by keeping it perfectly one could attain righteousness. (Rom 3:20) the knowledge of sin, is understood by the law.

(And the law is a schoolmaster that brings those who are under it, to Christ.) (Gal3:24)

An in Romans 11:11; they stumbled that through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

And, if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (vs 15)

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.  (Rom 11:22-23)

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. (Rom 9:16)

So Romans 9, is about the sovereignty of God, and election.
He does the chosing that in the end He should be praise..


Petro
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asaph
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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2003, 05:09:57 PM »

Quote Petro-

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. (Rom 9:16)

So Romans 9, is about the sovereignty of God, and election.
He does the chosing that in the end He should be praise..



Verse 16 must be kept in context. These Israelites were making claims that, due to the fact that they were children of Abraham, they were heirs of the kingdom. But Paul argues that, no matter how much they ran with that assumption and willed it to be so, that did not make them heirs. In God's sovereignty and economy, it is only those who "hear" Jesus that will be counted as the seed and, therefore, heirs.

We know that being willing is important, and so is running. But the issue is: What are these based on? Are they based on our own assumptions and ideas or on God's plan of salvation?

John 7
17   If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Habakkuk 2
1   I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.
2   And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.
3   For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
[Verse four is the vision we are to run with]
4   Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

In these passages we have the two terms, run and will. When it comes to faith in God's promises, we are to run and we are to will. So the verse in Romans 9 cannot be used in a universal, absolute sense. This goes along with the greater part of Pauls writings and the context of the whole of Romans.

asaph


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Petro
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« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2003, 05:53:25 PM »

I don'tdisagree with the ultimate thought, you are bringing forth, but Jhn 7, is not a part of Rom 9, in the sense that this chapter is specifically speaking of Gods sovereignty, notice the rest of the verse, concerning the clay and the potter, the context is His will being imposed upon His creation.

Good thought though, and ultimnately it is as you have expressed it.

Blessings

Petro
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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2003, 11:32:41 PM »

asaph,

While having dinner, I thought of this verse;

Phil 2
13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If God can work in any Christian to "will and do of His good pleasure", after being saved.

What makes it hard to believe or understand that this same God, if when you were a poor lost sinner by the power of the Holy Spirit in drawing you to Christ worked to bring to an end your unbelief and rebellion, do you think for one moment that He does not have power to cause you to will his will even while in unbelief to  bring you to believe and to carry on to fruition the work He began.

There is no question about it, when God draws men to Jesus, it is by the power of the Spirit, this is why Jesus, can say authoritatively "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, and again"all that father give me shall come to me", "not one will be missing" ; whom He is using today to bring all of Jesus's enemy's that they might be made His footstool.

Just a thought,


Blessings,
Petro
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asaph
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2003, 03:14:54 AM »

asaph,

While having dinner, I thought of this verse;

Phil 2
13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If God can work in any Christian to "will and do of His good pleasure", after being saved.

What makes it hard to believe or understand that this same God, if when you were a poor lost sinner by the power of the Holy Spirit in drawing you to Christ worked to bring to an end your unbelief and rebellion, do you think for one moment that He does not have power to cause you to will his will even while in unbelief to  bring you to believe and to carry on to fruition the work He began.

There is no question about it, when God draws men to Jesus, it is by the power of the Spirit, this is why Jesus, can say authoritatively "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, and again"all that father give me shall come to me", "not one will be missing" ; whom He is using today to bring all of Jesus's enemy's that they might be made His footstool.

Just a thought,


Blessings,
Petro

Those are good thoughts. But the question is: Does God work that way? Does he form man's will? Is man passive to the point that God puts a willing spirit in him in order for man to call upon God?
My personal belief is that God teaches lost men by His Spirit. Then it follows that all who learn from Him come to Jesus. When I was 19 years old I did not know much about Jesus but I did begin to enquire of God. I would look up at the stars at night and pray: "God if you are real, please show yourself to me." I began to reason in my mind that there had to be a God for logical reasons. It was not long after that, that someone shared Jesus with me by giving me a gospel book to read. I was taught of God. I was tempted sore to turn away but in the end I chose to believe in Jesus as the one who died for my sins. My experience, without me knowing it at the time lined up with that verse in John that says:
John 6
45   It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

I am having a hard time believing that I was totally passive concerning my will to believe.

This in no way means that I merited salvation; I simply responded to the invitation (which I could have refused).

I do have a question concerning eternal security. If God is sovereign before salvation, why does He lose His sovereignty after salvation? For after we are truly saved, then should we sin, why does God no more have the sovereignty to rejects us outright? After all, He can do as He wishes and would be right in doing so, because sin separates us from God. So God would not be unjust in any case. So if one answers and says it's because God binds himself to His promise, then why not say He binds Himself to His promise to save such as call upon Him while they are yet sinners, without imposing a willing spirit upon a passive sinner. So why can't man have a free choice in the matter without some saying that this merits salvation? Do you follow my thinking?

asaph
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Petro
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2003, 12:49:58 PM »

asaph,

Here is a verse, for you;

Phil 1
6  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I suppose, one would have decide, when God began, this work in you. In order to understand the rest of the scriptures that deal with this subject.

Perseverence of the Holy Spirit will accomplish it not perseverence of the flesh; this why the apostle was able to say;

Phil3
3  .....  we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

If ALL are dead, condemned to eternal judgement by fire, and there is none that "hear nor understand" or "receive or know, the things of God" , and God  "chooses to save some" how can someone say, it is because I believed in Jesus.

There is no biblical basis for this thought or teaching, the scripture is clear;

This why Paul at Romans 9:15; recalls the Words of Moses, where God speaking says;

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

and again,

17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


Those  (unbelievers, ALL, which really includes everyone)who are "raised up", such as Pharaoh, are they able to believe anything by any natural power or strength they possess.??

It is simple, and yet, so difficult to comprehend, and all because people are to smart for their own good; they try to reason, that;

yea, I was condemned to die as a sinner, but then, I believed myself, this was my part!

It sounds so naive..

If everyone is a corpse, on what basis, can they claim to hear anything, much less believe.

Jesus said; Let the dead bury the dead

Listen,  All whom God sanctifies, He will Justify, in Christ Jesus

And the basis for this is His, Sovereignty (He chooses those who are ultimately saved), and the Love He has for His Son, it Has nothing to do with God looking forward in future time to determine what you will or won't do.

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Quote
I do have a question concerning eternal security. If God is sovereign before salvation, why does He lose His sovereignty after salvation? For after we are truly saved, then should we sin, why does God no more have the sovereignty to rejects us outright? After all, He can do as He wishes and would be right in doing so, because sin separates us from God.

This question, says to me you haven't grasped the teaching of Gods sovereignty, and not doubt, for how could anyone understand what he doesn't want to, accept or believe.

It is precisely the Sovereignty of God, which brings those whom He separated (Sanctified) to fruition, in conforming them to the image of His dear Son.

Quote
So God would not be unjust in any case. So if one answers and says it's because God binds himself to His promise, then why not say He binds Himself to His promise to save such as call upon Him while they are yet sinners, without imposing a willing spirit upon a passive sinner

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.  (Rom 10:13-17)

Isasaih, said Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?  (53:1)

One must hear the Words of God before he can believe God, and he must "believe HIM first" before, he can believe the Gospel, plain and simply., those whe reject Gods Word, perish because they do not believe His testimony, that He is the creator God.


Don't ask me how cavemen were saved?, or OT peoples, they are simply hypothetical questions to distract from the scriptures.

Quote
So why can't man have a free choice in the matter without some saying that this merits salvation? Do you follow my thinking?

This is the question, the answer to, has to be understood in the right context of what Gods word says, so, that the man of God will not appear to place more emphasis on mans role in Gods Plan and lessen the Sovereign role of God.

The only thing the natural man can believe and actually it is simply agreeing with is the truth.

And, what is the truth??  What God says:

That He is a sinner, and dead to God and the things of God, and there is nothing that he can do about his situation, and should he die in his sin, he will perish in eternal fire.

Only when man agrees with this(can it be said he believes God) this, can the Gospel of deliverance from sin, be understood by him., and is understood because God the Spirit gives him understanding, contrast this with (1 Cor 2:14),

So, when mans faith is in the Word of God, only then will God the Father give this man to the Son, who will in no wise, cast him out,

And I give him eternal life and he will never perish., says Jesus.

Rom 4
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Rom 11
27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So, you can see, the Gospel, is Gods, and because he draws men to Christ, none receive faith, lest they believe Him first;

One must carefully read and consider Gods words to understanb this;  

Listen carefully, this verse, doesn't say anything about man, possessing the faith necessary to please God, it simply states, that without "faith" man cannot please God;

however it does matter of factly state, men must believe Him

Heb 11
6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


The problem as I see it, althought the Godpel is simple to understand, men lessen Gods importance in it, and magnify theirs., as thought they produce the faith necessary to come to Jesus.

This explains why, many can be deceived into believeing, they are known of Him, because they know something about Him, and why there are so many different teachings which don't square up with scripture.

The verse you have given, makes the point perfectly,

John 6
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Hearing Gods, word produces Faith, and it cannot be produced in the hearer, if one does not believe Him.

Quote
I am having a hard time believing that I was totally passive concerning my will to believe.

Any one who seeks the truth of Gods Word is not passive, I am afraid you focus on the wrong thing, when making this satetement.

It is God's word that motivates the passive hears, and, this is why the scriptures state;  He works to draw men to Himself.

In order to give the Gospel, we need to understand it..

Blessings,

Petro
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Petro
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2003, 01:34:12 PM »


Quote
This in no way means that I merited salvation; I simply responded to the invitation (which I could have refused).

.

asaph

asaph,

Praise God, your response was based on believing what God teaches, them that hear.
So hearing  may be the most important part of this whole thing.   Since there are those that hear the same message, but do not agree with it.
Perhaps, it is because God gives the hearing to hear with;

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
 (Mat 13:13-16)

Blessings,
Petro
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asaph
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2003, 03:15:18 PM »

Petro,
This is very interesting. I think we are at opposite poles. I guess we will have to wait till Jesus resurrects us to find out that I was right all along. But don't worry, I won't rub it in. Grin

I like some things shrouded in mystery, so I thinks I will dish out to others that God loves them and Jesus died to take away their sins. And Let God do His work.

Ribbons and Bows

Love is a question mark
Life's in a shadow box
God hides himself sometimes
Inside a paradox

And there may not ever be
Anything new here to say
But I'm fond of finding words
That say it in a different way

Chorus:
Does everybody want it nicely
Lined up in little neat rows?
Does anybody know precisely
Just where the wild wind blows?
I can hand it to you brightly
Wrapped up in ribbons and bows

We could dance the same old dances
Learn all the same old ropes
Roll out the same safe songs
Tell all our tired jokes

We've got some walls to climb
We've got some gates to crash
We've got a fire to light
Burn down the pious trash

Chorus
Does everybody want it nicely
Lined up in little neat rows?
Does anybody know precisely
Just where the wild wind blows?
I can hand it to you brightly
Wrapped up in ribbons and bows

Love is a question mark
Life's in a shadow box
God hides himself sometimes
Inside a paradox

Music by Daniel Amos, Words by T.S. Taylor
©2001 Zoom Daddy/BMI


May Jesus be real for you Today

asaph
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Petro
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2003, 05:57:26 PM »

asaph,


oookkk..

At least we agree, he did it all because of his Love..

Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2003, 03:58:47 PM »

What happened to Israel? 9:1-5. The former agency of prophetic election. Paul's sorrow.  
God's election on trial - 9:6-13. His word was not at fault.  
God's fairness on trial - 9:14-18. His righteousness not at fault. Two part answer.  
God's mercy - Moses - 15-16 - God is longsuffering.  
God's purpose - Pharaoh - 17-18 - Purpose before the promise  
Back in the kiln - 9:19-33. The reshaping of Israel. Israel stumbles and the little flock, remnant gets the blessing.  
The righteousness of faith - 10:1-21. The issue is the hearing and the heart.  
Israel's future restoration - 11:1-6. The election will obtain it.  
National blindness - 11:7-14.  
Horticulture - 11:15-25. Branches, roots and wild olive trees.  
But now the Jew is saved as the Gentile - 11:24-36 (Acts 15:11).
All concluded in unbelief  
National salvation promised to Israel in the future  
Israel now saved as the Gentile, by grace through faith  
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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2003, 10:08:19 AM »

If the unbelieving Jews were objects of wrath prepared for destruction before the foundation of the world, then why did Paul say they did not stumble beyond recovery?

The last part of your question is explained later on in Romans to some degree.
Romans 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathersí sakes.
29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I believe the Bible indicates that ALL of Israel will be saved. This includes the house of Judah (the Jews) in Israel at this present day. The Gentiles, which include all the grafted in branches and the house of Ephraim, are being gathered now and provoking the Jews in Israel to jealousy. The Jewish people watch closely and see the celebration of those in Christ even now and this makes them wonder.
God's gifts and calling are forever, and none of His chosen will be lost, but redeemed. I know there are many different views on end times and the Jews in Israel, but through out the Bible God redeems both houses of Israel - Ephraim and Judah. This, and all the grafted in branches. Go back and read all the curses and trouble prophesied to the individual houses and they are different to some extent as He addresses them indiviually, yet God always ends the trouble with salvation and redeemption. Hosea is a good example to read.

Hosea 6: ∂ O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.
5  Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.
6  For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Hosea 11:9  I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
10  They shall walk after the LORD: he shall roar like a lion: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.

Interesting that we, in America are considered the west.
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Hosea 11:10  They shall walk after the LORD: he shall roar like a lion: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.
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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2003, 09:09:10 AM »

For give  perhaps the hard question?
But what good are theories!?
For if our thinking is wrong then we will have to 'unthink' what we have thought.
Far better to hold it before God and ''chew on it' or meditate onthe passage untill you have GODS mind on it.
Sure we can 'wrestle ' with it.But thatius NOT the same as making uptheories a to what it MIGHT meen.
Surely we have ben promised thebHoly Spirit to lead us into all truth even aboutthis also?
and therefore we wil have the more satisfaction in not having a theory which may or may not be true but we will KNOW the truth and thetruth will make us free.
If we would but let the scriptures speak for themsleves and folow Pauls THINKING and LOGIC even as He folowed Christ in the passage then we will be LED even as He was to the SAME conclusions. and so we "all come to a unity of thefaith" because we will all come to a unity of UNDERSTANDING!"
How else can we "be renewed in the Spirit of our minds "
For if we but use the old reasoning we will never arive at the truth.
But as we are LED so we will ARRIVE and come to aknowledge of the truth.



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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2003, 01:09:04 PM »

With the coming of the new age in Christ and the consequent fulfillment of God's promises in the new Christian community, a serious question is raised about the promises of God to the old community, Israel.  Paul sees the event of Christ's coming within the framework of a larger history of interaction between God and humanity that centers in Israel and is recorded in the Hebrew scriptures.  For him the question now revolves about that history and those promises.  Were they meaningless and are they now null and void?

Before Paul seriously tackles the question he makes clear by way of introduction (9.1-5) his abiding kinship with Israel, the Jewish people.  He assumes, however, that the Jews have not, for the most part, accepted Jesus as the Messiah; thus they remain outside the circle of the new community.  This situation is the crux of the problem with which Paul wrestles in Romans 9-11.  Paul will not write off his kinsfolk, nor will he concede that God has written them off.  Although because of Christ Paul discounts his own Jewish religious pedigree and accomplishments, he is unwilling to discount the distinctive position of Israel as a people before God.

Yet Paul's fundamental reason for regarding the given situation as a problem has to do with God, not Israel.  For if the word of God has in fact failed, if God has simply canceled his promises, then everything that has been said by Paul up to this point is called into question, for God's righteousness is then jeopardized by his unfaithfulness (9.6).  Paul will not countenance such blasphemy.  If God were unjust (9.14), the not of supreme confidence struck in chapter 8 would be undermined.  To put it bluntly, if God had reneged on his promises to Israel, how could the Christian be certain that God would not change his mind again?  At stake is nothing less than the validity of the promises of God and by implication the character of God as righteous deliverer.  For if the promises of God are revocable, then how can one have faith in his righteous judgment on humanity's behalf in Jesus Christ?  Paul now turns to the questions of the faithfulness and righteousness of God in history.  Thus Romans 9-11 is not an appendix dealing with a question that has become peripheral.  Rather, for the gospel to make sense, Paul must show that God's faithfulness vindicates itself in history.

In four different ways Paul meets the implied charge that the word of God has failed.  In the first place, he argues that God's promise was always based on the principle of election or choice (9.5-26).  Moreover, this promise is not automatically passed down from one generation to the next, but is a dynamic process in history by which God continues to call and to choose (9.6b-13).  It might appear that Paul thought God somewhat capricious in this respect.  Indeed, he seems to defend that capriciousness (vss 19ff).  Yet here Paul grounds election in a prior faith in God as Creator and Lord of creation (vss 20ff), for what Paul ultimately has in view is not God's arbitrary rigor but his mercy (vss 22ff).  Moreover, the rejection of large numbers of the children of Israel is predicted by the prophets Hosea and Isaiah (vss 25-29).  Thus God himself has declared that it must occur.

In the second place, sufficient grounds for the rejection of Israel can be found in her own misguided effort to please God.  In 9.30-10.4 Paul clarifies the concept of the righteousness of God.  Because Israel has not understood that God's righteousness is to be received by faith (9.30ff), she has sought to establish her own works (10.3).  But Paul insists that God's righteousness cannot be earned.  God pronounces people righteous and thus brings them into the right before himself through the cross of Jesus.  Christ becomes for us righteousness, and in the apostles' preaching the cross of Jesus is said to be the revelation of God's righteousness.  If there is any effort to establish one's own righteousness, then the gift of God is refused.

This all came primarily out of Paul's anguish that the Jews did not accept Jesus as Messiah.
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Raphu
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2003, 01:42:01 PM »

Both branches were cut off from the root, but Ephraim has been grafted back in as the Church. Judah still lingers, but is provoked to jealousy by Ephraim's praise and worship, and God clearly indicates that ALL Israel will be saved. More Messianic Jews are appearing these last days and recognizing Messiah Yeshua. This is stated in Ez.37:11-17 to happen and repeated in the New Teastament many times or referred to. I just bumped into another reference recently:
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Acts 13:23  Of this manís seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:


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Hosea 11:10  They shall walk after the LORD: he shall roar like a lion: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.
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