What does it mean to “be saved”?

[The Crusader]

What does it mean to “be saved”?


Christians often tell people to “be saved”, to “believe” in Jesus, or to “believe in” the Gospel. But what does it mean “to believe”? What is the Gospel?

The word Gospel literally means "good news" and in this case it is the good news about Jesus Christ. But this good news begins with some very bad news. The bad news is sin and its consequences.

Sin is disobedience to the laws of the one and only God. His commands are to be found in many places in the Bible, most notably in the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament (Exodus 20:1-17) and the Sermon on the Mount in the New Testament (Matthew 5-7). So, for example, to blaspheme, to steal, to kill, or even to hate others, are sins against God. Any form of behavior which goes against what the Bible teaches is sin. Sin is also universal. That is, everybody has sinned, however good they may seem to us (Romans 3:9-23).

The consequences of sin are various and serious. First of all sin wrecks our lives in so many ways. And it is also evident that sin has a powerful hold over all of us. So often we find it hard to give up behavior that we know is bad for both us and others.

But sin has another serious consequence, and that is the judgment of God. God is perfect and just, and cannot and will not tolerate sin. He has declared that one day He will judge human beings for their behavior. On that day everyone who has not been saved must face God's judgment (Hebrews 9:27). And that judgment is to be feared. He has the power to cast the unbelievers into Hell.

But the good news is that God cares about us. He would rather bring us to Heaven than send us to Hell. The Bible tells us that "God demonstrates his own love to us in this: while we were still sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:, and "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

While humanity was totally bound up in its sin, God acted, and He acted in a most amazing way. God came to earth Himself in the form of His Son, Jesus Christ, 2000 years ago, an event we celebrate at Christmas (Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 2:1-20; John 1:1-18). This Jesus lived a perfect life. He is the one exception to the fact, mentioned above, that "all have sinned". He also died a sacrificial death, nailed to a wooden cross, eventually triumphing over sin and death by literally rising from the dead (Luke 23:26- 24:49; John 19:16- 21:24).

It is Christ's death that makes it possible for sin to be forgiven, for He bore the punishment for our sin. It is also His resurrection and His living presence in this world through His Holy Spirit that makes the fight against sin a realistic possibility. It is His sinless life, death and resurrection that make it possible for us to reach Heaven. This is the Gospel.

But how can you benefit from that Gospel? It is most important that you first recognize that you are sinful, and don't deserve this perfect God's interest in you. You must also realize that you cannot earn His forgiveness. It does not matter how hard you try, you cannot work you way to Heaven. Salvation from sin is free. It is a gift. You are powerless to save yourself. That is something God alone can do.

You should then ask God to forgive and save you. This prayer does not need to be in a set form, but it does need to be your heartfelt desire for God's forgiveness and help. God will listen to the prayer of those who seek Him (Romans 10:13). You should throw yourself upon His mercy, and tell Him that you desire a new life and freedom from sin. In other words, you should repent. That is, you should recognise the purity of God, be sorry for your sins, and desire to be forgiven.

And of course you must believe this Gospel. Actually, you must believe in the person Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as your personal Savior. You must believe in his sacrificial death, that when He died on the cross, He shed His blood specifically for you, He died personally for you, He died the death you deserved to die.

"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31).

Once you pray this prayer, you have eternal life at that very moment. You are guaranteed a place with Jesus in heaven. And nothing you can do – or fail to do- can change your eternal status with Jesus.

Romans 8:
38   For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39   nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[aw]

It helped me tremendously when I discovered that salvation has the connotation of "DELIVERANCE."

We have been DELIVERED from the power of sin. We have been delivered from this world and translated into the kingdom of His dear Son. We have been delivered from the powers of darkness. We have been delivered from the curse of the law.

One day we will even be delivered from even the presence of sin and satan. Glory to God!

aw

[Ambassador4Christ]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN Crusader and aw, AMEN!!!

[nChrist]

AMEN and AMEN!

I've been thinking quite a bit about little children, how Jesus loves little children, and how salvation is described as a simple, childlike faith in Jesus. Men have stacks of books that involve highly technical doctrinal beliefs, but this thread made me think of what a simple, childlike faith might be that really is Salvation, pure and simple.

I'm visualizing a 6-8 year old child kneeling in prayer and saying something like:

Jesus, mommy and daddy have been teaching me a lot about you. I learned about your life and what you did for me in Sunday School and from mommy and daddy.

Jesus, I believe you died on the cross for bad people, and I've been bad. I know you are God and you live in heaven, but I believe You will come live inside of me and forgive me for all of the bad things I've done. I'm real sorry about the bad things I've done. Daddy told me I could talk to you whenever I wanted to and that you would be my Father in Heaven if I believe in you and ask you. Jesus, I do believe in you, and I want you to be with me for the rest of my life. Jesus, would you forgive me for all the bad things I've done and come live in my heart?

__________

Are there any technicalities here and missing PHDs, or do you think that Jesus took this little boy?

Love In Christ,
Tom

[aw]

"For I am not ashamed of the GOSPEL of Christ, for it is the POWER of God unto salvation/deliverance..." (Rom 1:16)

aw

[grace]

I must say, Crusader, I had mixed feelings as I read this. I found myself alternately saying “YES!!!” and “NO!!!”

Crusader wrote:
The word Gospel literally means "good news" and in this case it is the good news about Jesus Christ. But this good news begins with some very bad news. The bad news is sin and its consequences.

---NO!!! I volunteered for a crisis line for a number of years. I found that I spent an awful lot of time trying to convince people that they were, in fact, not worthless pieces of dirt. Then some of them would go to church and would be told that they were, and my co-workers and I would try to pick up the pieces. A person who is depressed is particularly prone to engage in mental distortions. One of the big ones is the negative mental filter, where "you pay undue attention to one negative detail instead of seeing the whole picture” (Beck, J.S. Cognitive Therapy. The Guilford Press: New York, 1995). The problem with the Romans Road is that a depressed person (in Canada, where I am, stats show that an alarming 1 in 3 will experience clinical depression in their lifetimes) filters out the rest of the Gospel message, and hears only what confirms their core beliefs about themselves. For an awful lot of people, the message that they are a worm is an awful lot more understandable, tangible, and therefore real to them than the message that they are unimaginably loved, especially if (as is the case with all too many) the message of parental and community love was not sent, or was partial or flawed, or just didn't get through.
 
What a terribly damaging and un-Christian message these people are left with!
 
This is what happened with me, in spite of a secure and loving family. For whatever reason, the message of love never fully got through; it was riddled for me with the message of earning and deserving. It is not right to accept that which you do not deserve; I applied this principle to God's love. Old habits die hard; even now sometimes, when I imagine myself in the palm of His hand, I find myself so riddled with shame that I can’t let Him love me. I didn’t deserve His love, you see; and I believed that while it was OK to give someone a gift that they didn’t deserve, it was wrong to accept that which you do not deserve. [excerpt from my journal- "I am curled up tightly in the palm of His hand, my head covered, my eyes closed tight...but I can feel the warmth of His hand, and I am beginning to let myself enjoy that warmth."]
 
As I understand it, Romans was written to those who were already pretty well established in the faith (Rom. 1:8-13). Furthermore, in the Christian communities of the time, each new member was mentored intensively in the Christian faith over a period of 1 to 3 years (a tad more intensive than your average Alpha program). Also, before Constantine, because of persecution, Christian communities generally tended to be very closed and protective of themselves; any visitors would be under the sponsorship of a community member who knew them well and knew what they were about. The likelihood of someone slipping by with only a partial understanding of the Gospel was likely much less then. As a pastor friend of mine once said, “If nobody knows who you are, you’re really in a very dangerous place as a Christian.” How very much more true for a person just beginning their Christian journey!
 
We have a tendency to get complacent and self-righteous sometimes, and it is then that we need the Romans message. Jesus Himself differentiated between groups of people in the way He taught, tailoring His words to where they were at. It was to the Pharisees that he said that to simply get angry was to commit murder. When He addressed the multitude, the poor, He said "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God", even though, chances are, they got angry too, sometimes.

Sorry, this is a long one! More in the next post.

[grace]

Sin is disobedience to the laws of the one and only God.

---YES!!! And beyond that. Our disobedience is also the symptom of another meaning of sin- separation from God, that springs from our doubt and distrust of Him. Which usually comes, in turn, from our lack of understanding of who He is.

The consequences of sin are various and serious. First of all sin wrecks our lives in so many ways. And it is also evident that sin has a powerful hold over all of us. So often we find it hard to give up behavior that we know is bad for both us and others.

---YES!!! Oh yeah, you can say that again! And how it sorrows the One who loves us to see us hurting ourselves and others!

But sin has another serious consequence, and that is the judgment of God. God is perfect and just, and cannot and will not tolerate sin. He has declared that one day He will judge human beings for their behavior. On that day everyone who has not been saved must face God's judgment (Hebrews 9:27). And that judgment is to be feared. He has the power to cast the unbelievers into Hell.

---OOO, careful! The proper fear of God is one that draws us to Him in awe, on our knees, convinced (convicted) of our sins, in repentance, and in adoring worship, not one that drives us from Him in terror, or forces us into His presence under threat of punishment.
Regarding God’s justice: You know how when you type a paragraph in a Word program on the computer, you can highlight it and hit "Justify", and it straightens everything up, makes it even for you? Well, from what I understand, this meaning of "justice" comes closer to the original Hebraic meaning than the much more modern notion of crime and punishment. It has more to do with making things right (which is the ultimate aim of our crime-and-punishment system, isn't it? Too bad it so rarely succeeds). I believe that God will do whatever He must to convert us, to make us whole, to make us wholly of Him as we were created to be; and might I add that I expect that for most of us (and far more so for some than others), God’s making-right will be an extremely difficult and painful process. I firmly believe, though, that while suffering for our wrongs is sometimes cited as something that has to happen as part of our healing and being-made-whole process, I believe that the overall counsel of the scriptures about the nature of God and His intentions toward us points squarely to the theory that God's interest is in restoring us to Him and not in making sure that we suffer for the suffering we've caused. He does not tolerate our sin because He loves us too much to leave us as we are.
   Some of us may not submit to this restoration, and God will not force us. But there will be plenty to discuss here as it is without getting into a discussion of how these are dealt with; let’s put that on hold for the time being, and tackle that hot topic in the debate section sometime.

But the good news is that God cares about us. He would rather bring us to Heaven than send us to Hell. The Bible tells us that "God demonstrates his own love to us in this: while we were still sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:, and "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

---Yes!!! AMEN!!!!!!!

While humanity was totally bound up in its sin, God acted, and He acted in a most amazing way. God came to earth Himself in the form of His Son, Jesus Christ, 2000 years ago, an event we celebrate at Christmas (Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 2:1-20; John 1:1-18). This Jesus lived a perfect life. He is the one exception to the fact, mentioned above, that "all have sinned". He also died a sacrificial death, nailed to a wooden cross, eventually triumphing over sin and death by literally rising from the dead (Luke 23:26- 24:49; John 19:16- 21:24).

---Yes!!! AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!!!

It is Christ's death that makes it possible for sin to be forgiven, for He bore the punishment for our sin.

---No!!! Re. His bearing the punishment: I disagree. Please refer to the new topic that I posted under theology à apologetics à Penal Substitutionary theory of atonement

It is also His resurrection and His living presence in this world through His Holy Spirit that makes the fight against sin a realistic possibility. It is His sinless life, death and resurrection that make it possible for us to reach Heaven. This is the Gospel.

---Yes!!! AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!!!

But how can you benefit from that Gospel? It is most important that you first recognize that you are sinful, and don't deserve this perfect God's interest in you.

---No!!! Back to my previous point about the Romans Road. God made us in His image, and He looked at what He had made, and it was good. (Genesis 1:27-31). Deserving has nothing to do with it. We are His children, we are of inestimable worth to Him, and He loves us!

You must also realize that you cannot earn His forgiveness. It does not matter how hard you try, you cannot work you way to Heaven. Salvation from sin is free. It is a gift. You are powerless to save yourself. That is something God alone can do.

---Yes!!! AMEN!

You should then ask God to forgive and save you. This prayer does not need to be in a set form, but it does need to be your heartfelt desire for God's forgiveness and help. God will listen to the prayer of those who seek Him (Romans 10:13). You should throw yourself upon His mercy, and tell Him that you desire a new life and freedom from sin. In other words, you should repent. That is, you should recognise the purity of God, be sorry for your sins, and desire to be forgiven.

---Yes!!! Amen!!! I must interject with this though; experience the purity of God, and you’ll find that being sorry for your sins and desiring forgiveness will happen pretty spontaneously. If you don’t believe me, ask Job! I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42: 5-6)

And of course you must believe this Gospel. Actually, you must believe in the person Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as your personal Savior. You must believe in his sacrificial death, that when He died on the cross, He shed His blood specifically for you, He died personally for you, He died the death you deserved to die.

---Again, deserving don’t enter into it!!! PSTA!

"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31).

Once you pray this prayer, you have eternal life at that very moment. You are guaranteed a place with Jesus in heaven. And nothing you can do – or fail to do- can change your eternal status with Jesus.

Romans 8:
38  For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39  nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

-Amen!!!

In His love,

-Grace

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Grace,

I might possibly understand your human perspective, but you disagree with God's perspective, the pure and simple Gospel of God's Grace.  Jesus Christ on the cross was a perfect sacrifice and GIFT that no human earned or deserved. If we took your perspective, mankind would not need a Saviour, but we all know that man is in desperate need of a Saviour.

You don't do any lost person a favor by twisting the Gospel of God's Grace into something that makes them feel good. Those lost people didn't call your crisis line with any problems Jesus caused for them. They were calling because of the problems sin and darkness causes, the opposite. If someone had shared the true and complete Gospel of God's Grace with them before, they may never have called that crisis line. Diluted and watered down Gospel is simply another lie to someone who is already wallowing in sin and darkness and suffering as a result. Their escape, help, and Salvation is in the undiluted and TRUE GOSPEL OF GOD'S GRACE.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[The Crusader]

Oklahoma Howdy to Grace,

I might possibly understand your human perspective, but you disagree with God's perspective, the pure and simple Gospel of God's Grace.  Jesus Christ on the cross was a perfect sacrifice and GIFT that no human earned or deserved. If we took your perspective, mankind would not need a Saviour, but we all know that man is in desperate need of a Saviour.

You don't do any lost person a favor by twisting the Gospel of God's Grace into something that makes them feel good. Those lost people didn't call your crisis line with any problems Jesus caused for them. They were calling because of the problems sin and darkness causes, the opposite. If someone had shared the true and complete Gospel of God's Grace with them before, they may never have called that crisis line. Diluted and watered down Gospel is simply another lie to someone who is already wallowing in sin and darkness and suffering as a result. Their escape, help, and Salvation is in the undiluted and TRUE GOSPEL OF GOD'S GRACE.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I agree blackeyedpeas

Your friend and brother

The Crusader
<))><

[Allinall]

Let me say that I agree wholeheartedly with Crusader, Tom and aw.  I am a completely depraved sinner.  But I must agree with Grace here as well.  We aren't piles of dirt.  Nope.  We are glorified piles of dirt!    Sorry, but that is the truth.  God made us from nothing more than dirt, and did so in His image.  God is taking these sinful, worthless piles of dirt He made in His image and conforming them into the image of His Son.  He is giving worth to that which is worthless, and that worth is Him.

Grace, it isn't that we get a better self esteem, but that we get a better view of our God.  Until we do so, we attempt to confine God to our image.  We aren't to find hope in ourselves, but in Him, and that in spite of how lowly we are, He loves us.  He accepts us as we are, and He changes us for His glory.  It's all about Him.  Not us.  

Well stated guys.  PRAISE GOD FOR LOVING A LOWLY SINNER LIKE ME!!!

[Sower]

For an awful lot of people, the message that they are a worm is an awful lot more understandable, tangible, and therefore real to them than the message that they are unimaginably loved,

Grace:

I don't see how you arrived at this conclusion by reading the Gospel as presented by Crusader.  I did not see the word "worm" in that post. You seem to be suggesting that the sinners spiritual condition before God should not be presented to him/her lest they be offended or go into "clinical depression". That is pure humanism.

However, the issue is not whether we are worms or tigers, the issue is whether we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.  The Gospel has no meaning to someone who believes that they are "OK" -- that the filthy rags of their righteousness are acceptable to God.  In fact the Gospel begins with the word "REPENT" and that word can only apply to a lost, Hell-bound sinner. So unless a person sees himself/herself as a sinner on their way to Hell, the Gospel has absolutely no significance.

If you want to see how God wants the Gospel presented, read the book of Romans from beginning to end, without sitting in judgment over Scripture.  The Gospel begins with "THE WRATH OF GOD" (Rom.1:18) and ends with "THE GRACE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST" (Rom.16:24).  That is the biblical, Scriptural presentation of the Gospel. That is the message that got the city of Nineveh to repent and be delivered from Divine judgment. That is what will bring sinners to Christ.

Today we have many preachers striving to present a watered down Gospel to "post-modernist" unbelievers, wherein the words "sinner", "Hell", "repentance" and "judgment" are omitted altogether.  That is NOT the Gospel.  The first word out of the lips our our blessed Lord when He presented the gospel was "REPENT (Matt.4:17).  That is exactly how He expects us to present the Good News.  First the "Bad news", then "the GOOD NEWS".

[nChrist]

Amen Brother Allinall.

Amen Brother Sower.


Grace,

Please don't think that we are trying to gang up on you with the Gospel of God's Grace. We all have human perspectives about the suffering and misery of mankind. Our Creator, Almighty God, knows ALL about our horrible condition and what causes it. In matchless LOVE and GRACE, Almighty God sent Jesus Christ to rescue us and help us escape our misery in the loving arms of our Lord and Saviour. This PRECIOUS and GLORIOUS TRUTH has rescued and saved untold multitudes from their suffering and misery. This truth doesn't hurt - THIS TRUTH SAVES!

Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the LORD, mercy shall compass him about.  Psalms 32:10

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.  Psalms 34:8

And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation.  Psalms 35:9

God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.  Psalms 46:1

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.  Psalms 23:1

The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.  Psalms 28:7

For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.  Psalms 31:3

My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.  Psalms 73:26

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.  Romans 6:23

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.  Romans 8:2

For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.  Psalms 18:28

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.  Proverbs 3:5

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour!

Love In Christ,
Tom

[grace]

Hello all,
Sorry it has taken a while to respond on this; I've been storm-stayed away from home for a few days.
If you'll bear with me, I cannot respond to all of this at once; it will take more time and energy than I have tonight.
I will try to address what you have all said over the next few days.

Blackeyedpeas,
Don't worry, I don't feel ganged-up-on; I feel challenged to think more deeply, to re-examine my theological beliefs and suppositions and modify them where, and to communicate my ideas more clearly.   Don't stop!

Sower, I am distressed at the idea that

unless a person sees himself/herself as a sinner on their way to Hell, the Gospel has absolutely no significance.

If my relationship with Jesus is based solely on my fear of going to Hell, I think that I've missed the point of the Good News. The Good News is not that I can avoid the eternal frying pan if I accept Jesus; that's not good news, that's a threat.

The Good News, to me, is that there is a different way of living; a way of living that is so full, so meaningful, so good as to show all other ways of life for what they really are: Death. The Good News, to me, is that "Love conquers all" is not an empty nicety. The Good News is that God is, and that God is Love. The Good News is that the Man of Sorrows is also the Man of the Joy of the Presence of God, and that as I learn to share in His sorrows, I also learn to share in His joy. The Good News is that I can be free of Sin, free of all of those things that I have been bound to by fear, free of having to secure myself my way, at the expense of others. The Good News is that God has done, and is doing in me, that which will make me fully the person He created and intended for me to be, and the person my heart of hearts so desires to be.

Not yet satisfied with what else I've written in response so far; there'll be more when I've had time to pray and think about it more.

Goodnight, and God bless,

-Grace

[grace]

blackeyedpeas wrote:

If we took your perspective, mankind would not need a Saviour, but we all know that man is in desperate need of a Saviour.

If you understand this to be my position, then I did a terrible job of communicating my position to you. I was living death, and by the grace of God I have been given new life!
  Please, please, PLEASE tell me how what I've said implies that we don't need the Savior.

blackeyedpeas wrote:

In matchless LOVE and GRACE, Almighty God sent Jesus Christ to rescue us and help us escape our misery in the loving arms of our Lord and Saviour. This PRECIOUS and GLORIOUS TRUTH has rescued and saved untold multitudes from their suffering and misery. This truth doesn't hurt - THIS TRUTH SAVES!

AMEN,AMEN,AMEN!!!!
The problem is that this truth only saves if it is heard. We desire to share the Good News, but what I'm saying is that the way in which we are trying to do so is not in line with biblical example, and as a result, there are many who are hearing just more bad news that only hurts in an unhealing way instead of the Good News. Rom 10:17 "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ." Doesn't it make sense to preach the Good News in such a way as that it will be heard?

Our Creator, Almighty God, knows ALL about our horrible condition and what causes it.

Amen! He is our fellow sufferer. The pain I feel from living in a wounded world He feels, and more than that He feels all of my pain even more fully than I, that I'm afraid to feel, that I run from feeling, that I numb myself from feeling, that I lack the trust in Him to allow myself to feel. Our Lord is not only omniscient and omnipotent, but (as a wise friend of mine put it) omnipathic.

blackeyedpeas wrote:

I might possibly understand your human perspective, but you disagree with God's perspective, the pure and simple Gospel of God's Grace.

Again, please, please, PLEASE tell me how what I have said goes against the Gospel of God's grace!!! I just don't see that at all.
As for my human perspective, what is it that you believe God's perspective to be? If it is that a price had to be paid in order to satisfy God's justice, and because we couldn't pay it Jesus stepped forward and paid it for us (as many believe), then I don't think that this perspective is any less human than mine. It certainly isn't biblical.

Sower wrote:

I don't see how you arrived at this conclusion by reading the Gospel as presented by Crusader.  I did not see the word "worm" in that post.

When I said "worm", I was referring to "worm theology", that theology which promotes the idea that we are awful and worthless through and through. This is a misunderstanding, in my view, of such passages as (Rom. 7:18) "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (italics added). It is in my flesh that no good thing dwells, but the spirit is a different matter; Rom.7:22 “For I delight in the law of God after the inward man”. Paul is not referring here to material vs. immaterial, but to that part of us that has sold out to and is ensnared by sin (the flesh) versus that in us which is in His image, that part of me which is the "me" that God created me to be, that part of me that seeks and longs for God. In Genesis 1:31, “God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.” We have a dual nature; we have two laws in our members.

Sower wrote:

You seem to be suggesting that the sinners spiritual condition before God should not be presented to him/her lest they be offended or go into "clinical depression". That is pure humanism.

Actually, what I'm saying is that to emphasize the sinner's spiritual condition before God is especially destructive to someone who is experiencing clinical depression.
Further, I am saying that Paul didn't write Romans to prospective converts; he wrote it to established Christians for a very different purpose than to share with them for the first time the Good News. Contrary to popular belief, the Romans Road is not conducive to a non-Christian's recieving of the Good News. We are NOT following Paul's example when we take a prospective Christian down the Romans Road.

There will be more, but it is well past my bedtime now, and it is going to be an early morning.

In His love,

-Grace

[grace]

Re. the truth hurting:

Rom.7:22,23  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

I am made in God's image, and yet (Rom. 7:18) "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing". We are of a dual nature; spirit and flesh, as Paul puts it. The latter part of the truth does hurt! It should, and it needs to; pain is what tells us that something is wrong, that something has to change.

When you have someone who is numb to and oblivious to the need to change their lives, the Romans Road might work, though personally I have observed that people embrace the faith much more easily when someone plants the seed and they become convicted themselves, than when I convict them. However, when you have someone before you who comes in pain already, knows that something is terribly wrong with life as they've been living it and is ready to change their life (That was the question that was asked of a person seeking to become a member of an early Christian community- Are you ready to change your life?), then I just don't believe that Jesus would have us begin with what an awful sinner they are. I am not sitting in judgment over the scripture, but over the formulaic and impersonal way in which it is sometimes used. As I pointed out in my post, Jesus did not speak the same words in the same way to each person he met; he responded to people as they were, where they were, in ways that changed profoundly those who had ears to hear.

I hope this helps to clarify,

In His love,

-Grace