The Penal Substitutionary Theory of Atonement

[grace]

In Aug. 2003, DareDevil wrote:
There's a reason why you cannot save yourself by works.
If a man is found guilty of stealing and is sentenced to 10 years in jail, he may indeed justify himself by works....he simply serves out the punishment for his crime.
He then satisfies the claims of the law.

Can a person justify himself in the presense of God's law by works ?
No !
Why not ?
Because God's law demands the death penalty for any violation of God's law...'wages of sin is death', (Romans 6:23).
No amount of working out 10 years...or a 100 years can ever pay the penalty.

The sinner is forced to admit that it is a debt that they cannot repay...except by forfeiting his life for all eternity...then the demands of the law is satisfied.
But since no man has the power to resurrect themselves they are lost for all time.

Jesus Christ paid that penalty for us....and because he had no sins that he himself committed....death could not hold him.

I strongly disagree; not with the idea that we are saved by grace and not by our own works, but with the idea that Jesus bought us back into God's favor.

The Penal Substitutionary Theory of Atonement (the idea that Christ was buying back God's favor for us) is a troublingly common interpretation, but it is NOT the teaching of the bible. I defy anyone to find the passage that states that Jesus died to pay a price to God or to satisfy God's wrath. Jesus paid a price, no doubt; He did the most powerful (and agonizing) thing that could ever be done to break our hearts of stone and restore us to God. He paid a price, but not -to- a God who was compelled by some sense of loveless justice to exact it from someone. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son" (John 3:16) God wasn't reconciled to us by Jesus' death; "we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son" (Romans 5:10). Jesus did not die so that God could forgive us; He died so that we could accept God's forgiveness.

The PSTA does not hold us to task for our sin; it implies to me, at least, that since my account has been settled no matter what, I can do whatever turns my crank and not have to worry about it as long as my name is on the Accepted-Jesus-As-Savior Contract.

Paying my way does not get at the root of the problem; it does not change me. It does not, as per Psalm 51:10, "Create in me a clean heart". Jesus' blood has to have done more than take the rap for me.
 
    As I stated above, I believe that Jesus paid the price for our sin, but I don't believe that it was to God that He paid the price; the idea of to whom is where the analogy- and all theology can only ever be analogy- breaks down. As I understand it, He did the most powerful thing that could ever be done to prove the depth of His love for us, to wake us up, to make us see, to let us understand; and paid a terrible price to do so. He did so because that is what it would take to break our hearts of stone, and give us hearts for love alone. And yet, somehow, that is only scratching the surface of what He did.
 
   He didn't just pay a price for it, He took it on. He did so in many ways, most of which I just cannot fathom. He showed us by the outward sacrament of His sacrifice the inward reality of God, that our sorrows are His sorrows, and our pain truly is His pain, by living (and dying) our pain. Even the agony of our separation from Him. How can God live separation from Himself? And yet, somehow He did, in the same way as Jesus was somehow both fully God and fully human, at once, without one ever impinging upon the other. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Fully God, and fully human.
 
From my journal (Nov. 21/02):
Dear Jesus,
My Lord and my God,
    That is the thing, that was the big thing, that you suffered the apparent severance of that connection between you and the Father. All of the other stuff, the physical pain, the betrayal, paled in comparison to that, didn't it? To be without Him who was your Everything.
        The awfullest of moments.
  And in that moment you truly, truly took on the Sin, the separation of the world.
    The agony of that moment is so far beyond my imagination. It is with that that you prove to us that you really, really do plumb the depths of our suffering, and beyond. Thank-you.
    I can't say that I fully understand what I wrote that day; I no longer even understand it to the extent that I understood it in that moment. I do believe that I had a hold of something real and true, though. The degree to which I had it fast and comprehended it fully was no more than the degree to which a five-year-old dangling from a deathgrip on the tip of the tail of an elephant has caught that elephant and knows all there is to know about elephant behavior and anatomy.
    And what could I say, in response to what He'd done for me, but "Thank-you"? Never have words ever been so utterly inadequate as in that awe-ful moment.
 
    I don't know where to end on this any more than I knew where to begin. There's so much more, but I don't think that I have words for it right now. I may not ever. But it isn't the mechanics of it, the only thing that words can capture, the gnostic, that is the essence of it. It is in what can only be found between the lines. It is in what makes a painting art and not just a painting. It is in what happened, what happens between us and God when God did what He did in Jesus.

I look forward to seeing what you folks make of this.

In His love,

Grace

[Petro]

posted by grace; The Penal Substitutionary Theory of Atonement
« on: February 12, 2004, 09:28:18 PM »

I defy anyone to find the passage that states that Jesus died to pay a price to God or to satisfy God's wrath.

grace,

This is not where the nut is.

The scriptures does teach, we (Christians) were purchased with His own blood (Acts 20:28), and have received the Holy Spirit as our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession/ (Eph 1:14)

Where I see, the error of this idea, of the paying to satisfy a debt, it is clear, their is no debt; clearly stated “There is no debt due God”, since He is under no obligation to forgive or save anyone.

You said;

(quote)I strongly disagree; not with the idea that we are saved by grace and not by our own works, but with the idea that Jesus bought us back into God's favor.(End of quote)

I see the idea you attribute to daredevil, as your idea and not his, that Jesus bought us back into God’s favor as you say, is not inferred at all in the quote attributed to him.

Gods favor and Gods Grace are not the same thing, or am I wrong??

I  don’t see, that daredevil said this at all.. (What you disagree with)

He did say;

Jesus Christ paid that penalty for us....and because he had no sins that he himself committed....death could not hold him.

Since the scriptures teach, one cannot work for the reward reckoned of Grace, it settles this matter once and for all, that it is not a debt, period. (Rom 4:4)

Perhaps you could expound some on what it is you disagree with,  using different wording??


Petro

[grace]

Petro, and everyone,

I will try, and I will try to be clearer.

We cannot save ourselves by works? We cannot save ourselves period. God is life. God is love.  We cannot be God unto ourselves, life and love unto ourselves. Whether we’ve committed sins or paid somehow for the sins we’ve committed, or had the payment made for us, is completely irrelevant to this fact. 1 Corinthians 13:3 - If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

DareDevil wrote (Quote)The sinner is forced to admit that it is a debt that they cannot repay...except by forfeiting his life for all eternity...then the demands of the law is satisfied.
But since no man has the power to resurrect themselves they are lost for all time. (End quote)

I think one of the main things that I have trouble with is the implication that the demands of God's law must come before His love for us.
DareDevil said (Quote)Because God's law demands the death penalty for any violation of God's law...'wages of sin is death', (Romans 6:23)... (End quote)
Unless I am not understanding, it seems to me that the implication is that until something is done to satisfy the demands of God's law, we cannot be saved. That until we have gotten past God’s law (or have been gotten past God’s law by Jesus), we cannot be given God's grace.

This does not at all mesh with by understanding of who God is, and of the nature of His justice.

You know how when you type a paragraph in a Word program on the computer, you can highlight it and hit "Justify", and it straightens everything up, makes it all even for you? Well, from what I understand, this is the meaning of "justice" that comes closer to the original Hebraic meaning than the much more modern notion of crime and punishment. It has more to do with making things right (which is the ultimate aim of our crime-and-punishment system, isn't it? Too bad it so rarely succeeds.)

Perhaps 'wages of sin is death' refers to earning and deserving, to crime and punishment, but mightn't it also be an observation of the way things are? A wage is what one might reasonably expect for an honest day's work. A bellyache is what one would normally expect from eating two pounds of nuts. Death is the result of separation from God. And death is so very much not what God desires for us.

For God to give us the fullness of life, the barrier between ourselves and God does have to come down. But I don’t think that God’s law is the barrier; I think that the barrier is our doubt and distrust. In other words, I don’t think that the barrier is on God’s side, but on ours. It is not that until our sins are taken care of we cannot be given God's grace; it is that until our sins are taken care of we cannot recieve God's grace. There is a subtle, but absolutely key, distinction to be made here.

Petro: Re. (Quote) The scriptures does teach, we (Christians) were purchased with His own blood (Acts 20:28), and have received the Holy Spirit as our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession/ (Eph 1:14)  (End quote):

As I said, Jesus paid a price, but not to God. I contend that is where the analogy breaks down, and that there is far more scriptural support for the idea that it does so than for the idea that it extends to mean that God was exacting the price to satisfy His law. And (just to cover all bases) if the price had to be paid to The Law so that God could give us life, that would put the Law above God, the created above the Creator.

Folks, I don’t know if I’ve managed to put this forward any more clearly than I did the last time; please let me know, and feel free to test and challenge what I say. This is how growth occurs.

In His love,

-Grace

[grace]

Hello DareDevil,

I am brand new to this forum (and to forums in general, for that matter!), and I think that already I may have committed an indiscretion.

I used something that you said a while back in one of your posts as the starting point for attacking a piece of doctrine that is a pet peeve of mine. As if opening by picking on something you'd written wasn't enough, it never even occurred to me until just now that you had no way of knowing that your name and your words were being used! You wouldn't know to defend yourself or clarify any misunderstandings on my part!

I apologize, and I ask your forgiveness,

-Grace

[Petro]

grace,

I seewhat you take issue with.

Don't worry about daredevil, he posted the [poste and it is up to him to defend his writings, but acrually I didn't see it as glaringley as you did, actually I am not sure he meant what you make it out to be.

But what you are raising is a good point.

Their is no debt do to speak of, to God, the idea of being purchased is used as an analogy, in a way people undertood, especially in Pauls times when he wrote the verses in he letter to the Ephesians.

J Vernon Mc Gee, in a message which escapes me presently, spoke of a stamp which was used to mark the purchasers insignia as a public notice of his ownership of the purchased possession of tree logs, used for lumber, which were left at the purchase site, until the purchaser returned to take them.

Likewise, all who have been covered under the shed blood of Christ, are referred to as, those who have been purchased with a price (Acts 20:28), the shed blood, and have received the seal of God, His indwelling Holy Spirit, until the appointed time of "redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph 1:14)

So here we are on the earth awaiting til Jesus comes to take us (His purchased possession home to be with him) just as He promised at Jhn 14:1-4

It is good, for you to be concerned about things that do not sound right and ask questions.

Since there are some who call themselves christians who teach such things.

But actually seasoned Christians, especially on this forum site, get to know who others are, and get to know what they believe and teach, sometimes, like daredevil, he will post something, and doesn't answer or places input until many days go by, and at other times almost imdiately will answer replies to his post.

Anyhow, I think, the words he used were not intended to mean what they seemed to imply, but just to be on the safe side, and not put words in his mouth, I say just wait and see, if he replies to you.

Blessings,

Petro