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nChrist
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« on: April 12, 2011, 05:15:46 PM »

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From A Voice In The Wilderness

The Days Of Daniel


As the world seems on the precipice of 'exploding', many 'prophets' are proclaiming this and that. Some have 'revelations from the Holy Spirit', others are claiming new insights. Years ago the SDAs began proclaiming that the 2300 days of Daniel were actually 2300 'years'. Somebody recently forwarded the writing of somebody proclaiming that the "2300 day tribulation" is about to start. That Family Radio group... what were they proclaiming? ...that the 2300 days was the "silence in heaven" of Revelation during which time nobody was being saved for that period of time commencing May21,1988? With this "2300 day" item being propounded from various sources, it seems good to re-run this item wherein we took a look at it about a year ago. At the website it was tacked onto the end of the Daniel series under "walk-thrus"


Re: 2300 days (Daniel 8:13-14)

The other evening I happened upon the local SDA channel as they were broadcasting a documentary on the progressive (ever-changing) teachings of William Miller ("Millerites" was apparently a prior name for the Seventh Day Adventists) about the "second coming" of Jesus Christ. Over a year ago I also happened upon one of their preachers alleging that he was going to talk about the "rapture", but ended up talking about the "second coming", instead. While we know passages such as 1 Th 4:16-17, 2 Th 2:7-8, Re 4:1, Jn 14:3, etc, they seem to totally ignore those, and instead concentrate on Daniel 8:13-14.

In this context they continually emphasize the Day/Year concept where, when Scripture speaks prophetically about "days", those days are -really- "years". So they take Daniel's 2300 days, allege that it starts with the decree by Cyrus to rebuild Jerusalem (Dan 9:25), same as the "70 weeks" are calculated (9:24), and project that out 2300 years to the 1790s. They say the catholic popes were antichrist (even in BC years of Cyrus?), and that the French in the 1790s prophetically deposed the pope as being the ruler of the "kings of the earth" (Re 17:18 ), thus fulfilling those 2300 "years". So then, as Christ did not return in the 1790s, and a few more dates came and went, they recalculated a few more times; Christ didn't come in 1843; recalculated again and predicted and settled on a certain day (this was 'it' this time) in the fall of 1844. When Christ did not come, they -explained- it through the parable of the 10 virgins, that the bridegroom "tarried". (Mt 25:5 kjv) So apparently, since 1844, they are in this "tarrying" mode; because according to them, the prophecies HAVE BEEN FULFILLED.

What did Jesus say about those who proclaim that the Master "delays" His coming? (Mt 24:48 )

"For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not linger." (Heb 10:37) ...or "tarry" (kjv)

However, in watching the documentary, knowing that Jesus has -NOT- yet returned, but seeing them continue to predict through the history of Miller's teachings, and me wondering 'how' they were going to ultimately explain it away (Oh... "tarrying"! Boink upside the head: Why Silly Me!)...I got to realizing that I've never before actually -looked- at these 2300 days. Have always zoomed/skipped over them when reading.

FIRST OF ALL, unless the passage context indicates otherwise, Scripture is to be taken literally. When Dan 9:24-27 speaks of "weeks", we know from the spread of history indicated, and as history has unfolded and been fulfilled precisely, as carefully calculated by Dave Hunt (he may have doctrinal problems regarding repentance and the literalness of hell, but in this he did good research) in his book "How Close are We?" [link] that the day/year concept does apply there. The "week" is "seven years".

However Peter also gives a formula about a day being like a thousand years. (2 Pt 3:9)  And we have an example about Israel's 2000 years in exile, followed by the Millennium of Messiah's reign...

"After two days He will restore us to life. In the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His presence." (Ho6:2)

Trouble is, when KJV/NKJV use the word "days" in Dan 8:14, that is a terribly imprecise translation in that instance. (Anything I see of the SDA these days, they all seem to use the NKJV) If you look it up in your Bible software, you will see two (2) Strongs numbers; two words: Evenings and Mornings. Like in "Fiddler on the Roof": Sunrise, sunset. The same way God specifies the literal 24-hour "days" of creation: "evening and the morning" (Gen 1:5,8,etc) This passage in Daniel is talking about LITERAL 24-hour "days"; NOT "years"!  (And to think: how an entire false cult, along with its extensive eschatological teachings, including all those full-color brochures regularly in our mailboxes for their prophecy conferences, is based around the sloppy translation of that one verse!)

Daniel's "70th week" is easy to see as "seven (7) years". (Dan 9:27) We also see 3 1/2 years: the "middle" of the 70th week. (Dan 9:27)  Also spoken of as "time, times and a half" (Dan 7:25,12:7)  Which is verified by 1260 days (Re 11:3, 12:6) and 42 months (Rev 11:2, 13:5) (These, based on the Biblical Jewish 30-day month) The seven years, and the 3 1/2 years are -precise- periods of time; it has been specified in many different ways...there is no mistaking it. And if the two prophets are prophesying for 42 months, are killed, and then resurrected; their resurrection marks the end of those 1260 days; 1260 days after the daily sacrifices are taken away, which happens in the "middle".

But then Daniel throws us some curves. After the sacrifices are stopped it says...

"there shall be 1290 days" (Dan 12:11)

That's a month more. And then...

"Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1335 days" (Dan 12:12)

2 1/2 months more.

What are those? I've not yet found a Scripture passage that jumps out at me as a suggested answer. Nor have I heard/read anybody else's suggestion. I've never heard anybody actually even address them, even to recognize that they are there, let alone that they don't know.

[insert at mailing: That group that was predicting the end of January, beginning of February, this year, were counting backwards from presumed dates for Trumpets/Atonement/Booths 1335 days for those predictions. That was obviously not it, was it! :]

And then, what is this 2300 days?

"For how long is the vision, concerning the regular sacrifice and the transgression of desolation, to permit both the holy place and the host to be trampled? And he said to me, For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be put right." (Dan 8:13b-14)

It's about the restoration of the daily sacrifices, antichrist's stopping of them in the middle of the 70th week, and then the rectifying of everything, restoring the purity of the holy place (sanctuary). It's not about the 70th week, as a whole. It's not (specifically) about the Second Coming. It does not address the Rapture. But specifically the sacredness of the (resumed) 'sacrifices' and where they are offered up.
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nChrist
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 05:16:29 PM »

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The Days Of Daniel


These are the sacrifices originally given...

"And this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs of the first year, day by day continually. One lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at evening...This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tent of meeting before Jehovah, where I will meet you to speak with you." (Ex 29:38-39,41)

The temple area is going to be trampled by gentiles for 42 months. (Re 11:2) But before that starts, the daily sacrifices will have resumed before that; in order for them to then be stopped. When the 42 months (1260 days) are ended, will that mean that at that point the "holy place will be put right"? Or does that happen at the 1290 days?  Or since the "blessing" is mentioned, is that 1335 days?

Seven years is 2520 days. 2300 days is 6 years 4 1/2 months (rounding off). What happened to the remaining 7 1/2 months?

Thus, do the 2300 days (daily sacrifices) commence 7 1/2 months -into- the 70th week? 8 1/2 months? 10 months?  Or, looking at it another way: Do they end at the same time as the 1260 days?  1290 days? 1335 days?

The end of the 42-month Gentile trampling corresponds with the death/resurrection of the two prophets. And as they are resurrected it says...

"And in the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of Heaven." (Re 11:13)

Where prior to this the world has been cursing God, here finally they give glory to God, and after this are great calamities: earthquake making islands sink, and hailstones...likely the last big -shake-. (Re 16:17-21)  Is that the point where the earth is "moved out of its place"? (Is 13:13) ...as the earth is perhaps interacting with some celestial body that flings it out farther away from the sun? (Zec 14:5-7) Is all this celestial activity what is embodied in the 'extra' month or 2 1/2 months? Thus the evil is officially 'dealt' with at the end of 1260 days?

Is there any reference in Scripture to a seven month period of time?

The Ark was in the land of the Philistines for seven months. (1 Sa 6:1) But that doesn't likely apply here.

"For seven months the house of Israel shall be burying them, in order to cleanse the land." (Ezk 39:12)

Burying whom? The fallen dead from the Gog Magog conflict. (Ezk 38-39)

We won't look up the passages now, but in the OT when they were preparing to setup the tabernacle and all such things related to sacrifice and worship, Israel was always told to purify and consecrate themselves, the altar, priests, etc. e.g. Ex 29:35-37

In my mind I've always seen the similarities between Gog/Magog and Armageddon. ch39 ends with,

"And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Lord Jehovah." (39:29)

And the next chapter begins Ezekiel's vision of the Millennial temple.

Questions! Questions!

And as Jesus told the expectant disciples, who wanted to know...

"Will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" He answers... "It is not yours to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." (Ac 1:6-7)

We are not trying to "map out" what -will- happen. But like we do, looking at the puzzles of prophecy... here are some pieces that may appear to 'fit'?

Would a Gog/Magog conflict at the beginning of the 70th week, instead, result in Israel's enemies finally agreeing to a 'peace' agreement? (Dan 9:27)  And so they now cleanse the land of all the dead corpses for seven months. (Ezk 39:12)  And with the cleansing finished, -then- the 2300 days regarding the daily sacrifices can commence? (Dan 8:14)  The seven months and 2300 days, thus, adding up to seven years?

But the peace and resumption of sacrifices will be short-lived, as the antichrist stops them.

Not suggesting what -IS-. Just looking at the pieces of the puzzle spread out on top of the table. We do not move the pieces, nor fit them together. But we are watching as God is moving things.

Do you suppose...?  I've never before heard anybody else propose this relationship of events. But as I got my Bible out, while the SDA (Miller) program was running, and started looking, it was a put the fingers to the head (or chin) "Hmmmm" moment.

However then, one thing troubling with this scenario is how Ezk 38:8,11 speak of Israel "now all of them dwell safely...a people at peace, who dwell safely" ... which is decidely -NOT- the case these days, as Israel's enemies come at them with missiles, suicide bombers, rock throwers, flotillas, etc.; and if somebody gets attacked in some parts of Jerusalem, the police often won't even come.

Or, since there are 7 1/2 months, 2520 minus the 2300 days: do they sign the covenant first, and Israel is immediately lulled into complacency of "safety", and within a half month immediately, BAM!, they get attacked; it's a quick war; and they start burying the dead?

This also, then, gives greater credence to the view of those, over the years, who have equated the Gog/Magog war to the beginning of the 70th week, and thus the burning of the weapons for "seven years" (Ezk 39:9) to -the- 70th week. I've never seen any problem with them doing so the first seven years going into the Millennium. If Paul's "last" trumpet doesn't have to be the "7th" (in Revelation), neither do the seven years of burning need to be the same as the 70th week. But...

We can observe the 'pieces' of the puzzle, but the fact that not everything quite yet 'fits' totally, in our minds, we can see that we don't yet have all the answers, do we.

"Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord comes. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief comes, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be dug through. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man comes at an hour you do not expect. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made administrator over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing." (Mt 24:42-26)
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david749
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2011, 11:25:17 PM »

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From A Voice In The Wilderness

The Days Of Daniel


As the world seems on the precipice of 'exploding', many 'prophets' are proclaiming this and that. Some have 'revelations from the Holy Spirit', others are claiming new insights. Years ago the SDAs began proclaiming that the 2300 days of Daniel were actually 2300 'years'. Somebody recently forwarded the writing of somebody proclaiming that the "2300 day tribulation" is about to start. That Family Radio group... what were they proclaiming? ...that the 2300 days was the "silence in heaven" of Revelation during which time nobody was being saved for that period of time commencing May21,1988? With this "2300 day" item being propounded from various sources, it seems good to re-run this item wherein we took a look at it about a year ago. At the website it was tacked onto the end of the Daniel series under "walk-thrus"


Re: 2300 days (Daniel 8:13-14)

The other evening I happened upon the local SDA channel as they were broadcasting a documentary on the progressive (ever-changing) teachings of William Miller ("Millerites" was apparently a prior name for the Seventh Day Adventists) about the "second coming" of Jesus Christ. Over a year ago I also happened upon one of their preachers alleging that he was going to talk about the "rapture", but ended up talking about the "second coming", instead. While we know passages such as 1 Th 4:16-17, 2 Th 2:7-8, Re 4:1, Jn 14:3, etc, they seem to totally ignore those, and instead concentrate on Daniel 8:13-14.

In this context they continually emphasize the Day/Year concept where, when Scripture speaks prophetically about "days", those days are -really- "years". So they take Daniel's 2300 days, allege that it starts with the decree by Cyrus to rebuild Jerusalem (Dan 9:25), same as the "70 weeks" are calculated (9:24), and project that out 2300 years to the 1790s. They say the catholic popes were antichrist (even in BC years of Cyrus?), and that the French in the 1790s prophetically deposed the pope as being the ruler of the "kings of the earth" (Re 17:18 ), thus fulfilling those 2300 "years". So then, as Christ did not return in the 1790s, and a few more dates came and went, they recalculated a few more times; Christ didn't come in 1843; recalculated again and predicted and settled on a certain day (this was 'it' this time) in the fall of 1844. When Christ did not come, they -explained- it through the parable of the 10 virgins, that the bridegroom "tarried". (Mt 25:5 kjv) So apparently, since 1844, they are in this "tarrying" mode; because according to them, the prophecies HAVE BEEN FULFILLED.

What did Jesus say about those who proclaim that the Master "delays" His coming? (Mt 24:48 )

"For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not linger." (Heb 10:37) ...or "tarry" (kjv)

However, in watching the documentary, knowing that Jesus has -NOT- yet returned, but seeing them continue to predict through the history of Miller's teachings, and me wondering 'how' they were going to ultimately explain it away (Oh... "tarrying"! Boink upside the head: Why Silly Me!)...I got to realizing that I've never before actually -looked- at these 2300 days. Have always zoomed/skipped over them when reading.

FIRST OF ALL, unless the passage context indicates otherwise, Scripture is to be taken literally. When Dan 9:24-27 speaks of "weeks", we know from the spread of history indicated, and as history has unfolded and been fulfilled precisely, as carefully calculated by Dave Hunt (he may have doctrinal problems regarding repentance and the literalness of hell, but in this he did good research) in his book "How Close are We?" [link] that the day/year concept does apply there. The "week" is "seven years".

However Peter also gives a formula about a day being like a thousand years. (2 Pt 3:9)  And we have an example about Israel's 2000 years in exile, followed by the Millennium of Messiah's reign...

"After two days He will restore us to life. In the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His presence." (Ho6:2)

Trouble is, when KJV/NKJV use the word "days" in Dan 8:14, that is a terribly imprecise translation in that instance. (Anything I see of the SDA these days, they all seem to use the NKJV) If you look it up in your Bible software, you will see two (2) Strongs numbers; two words: Evenings and Mornings. Like in "Fiddler on the Roof": Sunrise, sunset. The same way God specifies the literal 24-hour "days" of creation: "evening and the morning" (Gen 1:5,8,etc) This passage in Daniel is talking about LITERAL 24-hour "days"; NOT "years"!  (And to think: how an entire false cult, along with its extensive eschatological teachings, including all those full-color brochures regularly in our mailboxes for their prophecy conferences, is based around the sloppy translation of that one verse!)

Daniel's "70th week" is easy to see as "seven (7) years". (Dan 9:27) We also see 3 1/2 years: the "middle" of the 70th week. (Dan 9:27)  Also spoken of as "time, times and a half" (Dan 7:25,12:7)  Which is verified by 1260 days (Re 11:3, 12:6) and 42 months (Rev 11:2, 13:5) (These, based on the Biblical Jewish 30-day month) The seven years, and the 3 1/2 years are -precise- periods of time; it has been specified in many different ways...there is no mistaking it. And if the two prophets are prophesying for 42 months, are killed, and then resurrected; their resurrection marks the end of those 1260 days; 1260 days after the daily sacrifices are taken away, which happens in the "middle".

But then Daniel throws us some curves. After the sacrifices are stopped it says...

"there shall be 1290 days" (Dan 12:11)

That's a month more. And then...

"Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1335 days" (Dan 12:12)

2 1/2 months more.

What are those? I've not yet found a Scripture passage that jumps out at me as a suggested answer. Nor have I heard/read anybody else's suggestion. I've never heard anybody actually even address them, even to recognize that they are there, let alone that they don't know.

[insert at mailing: That group that was predicting the end of January, beginning of February, this year, were counting backwards from presumed dates for Trumpets/Atonement/Booths 1335 days for those predictions. That was obviously not it, was it! :]

And then, what is this 2300 days?

"For how long is the vision, concerning the regular sacrifice and the transgression of desolation, to permit both the holy place and the host to be trampled? And he said to me, For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be put right." (Dan 8:13b-14)

It's about the restoration of the daily sacrifices, antichrist's stopping of them in the middle of the 70th week, and then the rectifying of everything, restoring the purity of the holy place (sanctuary). It's not about the 70th week, as a whole. It's not (specifically) about the Second Coming. It does not address the Rapture. But specifically the sacredness of the (resumed) 'sacrifices' and where they are offered up.


Thanks Tom.......very nice post. 


Just curious.........when Daniel 9:27 says "in the middle"............do you think that there is a possibility that it is referring to this general area.  For example, perhaps the man of evil stops the daily sacrifice first .......and then 30 days later sets up the abomination of desolation at the exact middle.

This might help to explain the 1260 and 1290 things.........although I am no expert on it. 


1335........perhaps measured from when the sacrifice was stopped...........would bring you to 45 days after Daniel's 70th week is over.   I do not think it is really specified anywhere.  The Book of Daniel is addressed to Israel.......so perhaps this is when God puts His Spirit inside the remnant of Israel who He has preserved... as discussed in Ezekiel......and when Christ begins His reign as King of the World......and David as prince over Israel.   Hard to say for sure.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 11:51:30 PM by david749 » Logged
david749
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2011, 11:44:31 PM »

Nice 2nd post too......lots of work there.   Thanks


My opinion.........the sacrifices start 220 days into the 70th week......or about 7.3 months.   They go on for about 2.75 years until the man of evil stops them. 

The 2,300 seems to measure the time from when the sacrifices are started until the very end of Daniel's 70th week. 


 


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nChrist
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2011, 12:52:12 PM »

Hello Brother David,

There are various opinions, and it's easy to see why. I haven't done an in-depth study in this area for over a year now. As you're already aware, any study in this area is very time consuming and requires the use of many portions of Scripture. I try to keep an open mind and look at various reasonable explanations.
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