why pray?

[dontbesojumpy]

hi, i would like discussion on a topic i have been mulling for a while now but getting no real answers...

i would like to preface this by saying i am looking for a thoughtful, rational and logical discussion--so please refrain from any "just gotta have faith" or other tautological replies...

here we go:

why pray? before you start the (ahem, tautological) "because the bible says so and here are the scriptures for it"—I know. I know all about the scriptures that demand we pray…
let's pretend prayer is a universal truth, not bound to Christian dogma alone.

i say that because a lot of my atheist contemporaries seem to have more value in prayer than i can find, which indicates the value of prayer is not confined to a biblically christian importance.

my point--my hang up--is 1. we either pray simply to commune with God, because talking/communing with (whatever your idea of) God (is) is a good thing.
OR
2: we pray to ask God for things...
This is where I get really badly hung up. The second one.

If God “answers” prayers, why is it seemingly arbitrary WHICH he answers? Go ahead and say it—“it’s God’s WILL.”
If whatever happens is God’s will, then why bother asking for anything anyway? Does that mean what happens when you DON’T pray one way or the other, it’s NOT God’s will?
Has anything in the history of time happened that was NOT the will of God?
Deistically, if one believes God created this universe and set it in motion, then anything that happens is part of His original will.
Let’s take the Japanese ultra-catastrophe for an example. Everyone is now offering prayers for japan.
Presumably not one single person was companionate enough to pray “please, God, save Japan from a catastrophe in the near future” before the quake hit.
Presumably, if God hears and answers any prayers pertaining to “helping” japan now, then He would have answers a prayer for NOT letting a quake hit in the first place—a prayer no one seemed to care enough to cast. Someone said “I am praying for you now, Japan!” and someone else replied “NOW?! why didn’t you pray this didn’t happen to start with?! Your prayers now are way too late.”
That’s a good point.
OR
People DID pray and God did it anyway…which means again “whatever’s going to happen is going to happen”---so why pray at all asking for anything??
The only value in prayer I can find is “the granting of peace.” And this seems personal—meaning I could never convince a single other person that prayer does anything. All I could say is “well, it makes ME feel better, maybe it’ll make you feel better, too. but I can’t prove anything.”
I can logically understand praying for peace—but I can’t imagine praying for anything else.
Why would God care who wins the ball game? Why would God even care if we live or die? I mean…from a Christian standpoint, our souls will be with Him forever be them alive or dead—so what difference would it make to Him?
Now, I’m sure at this point everyone reading this thinks I’m some kind of unholy, non-christian anti-prayer who doesn’t believe in prayer.
Let me set that straight: I am the son and brother of Ministers, I’ve been in the ministry to various degrees myself and I pray on a fairly regular basis.
I align my religious views more with our country’s founding fathers more than any other group, so take that however you want.
My questions are extremely valid and honestly stump me. I pray simply because it makes ME feel better. I admit that I have prayed for things to happen that DID happen—things seemingly beyond my control—but I can’t discount coincidence—nor can I discount the fact meditation is a scientifically proven method of achieving gain. It centers and calms us, it helps us to focus and channel energy and allows for things to come to fruit that would otherwise maybe not have…at least not as easily.
Buddhist monks can alter their physiological attributes through meditation—and science confirms it. Raising your temperature and being able to survive sub-zero temperatures that would kill normal folk is no easy feat…but meditation makes it possible.
Prayer could simply be a different method of meditation.
I don’t meditate. I pray.
And it helps me. But I can’t in good conscience say that prayer would have averted disasters that have happened…and if you can, why didn’t you just do that?! That’s you saying “I could have stopped 911…I just didn’t.”

[david749]

There are many things involved here as you wrote a lot.  But there are probably many people in the world with similar questions.  I can start by addressing a few of your issues.


First of all,,,,,,,,,,,,God did initially provide a paradise for us..........but Adam and Eve instead chose to listen to Satan........and hence the paradise was destroyed.  It will not be restored until Christ returns. 

God in my opinion has allowed mankind to go its own way for awhile...........to let sin run its course.  This would be somewhat similar to a father allowing his son to attend parties with his friends and learn some things the hard way.  The Father gives advice............but does not follow behind and secretly spy on his son......and intervene in the party when the liquor bottles are opened.  Rather, he lets his son learn for himself what a hangover is all about.  Eventually the son will have had enough of the party life..........and return to his father.  This can also be found in the parable of the prodigal son.   The father did not prevent his son from going his own way for awhile.  The son learned the hard way.  He came back to his father later on.  The father was waiting for him.......and welcomed him back with opened arms. 

So.........for the time being........sin is running its course in the world..........and Satin has been allowed to be prince of this world............until Christ returns.    You can therefore expect much trouble in the world for the time being...........and history also confirms this. 


God did however give the greatest gift that can be given..........sending His innocent Son to die a cruel death for His creation.  God willingly humbling Himself.........putting on flesh.........to go to the cross. 


God's great gift therefore was given approx. 2,000 years ago..........and we should be extremely grateful for this........as it gives us the chance for eternal life with Him.


As my wife was dying of breast cancer........we prayed to God that if it was His will.........that He would cure her.  However, we also understood that perhaps it was just the time for Maryanne to go and be with the Lord.  She loved God very much.  She is in paradise now.......and am sure that she would not want to return now.  She is with God............because the Lord went to the cross for her........took her punishment........and now she has been forever made white.   The greatest gift that there is.........has been given.........and she will now be with Him forever.   


Remember Job........he lost everything.........but did not blame God. 


The Scripture says "pray without ceasing."   This should be a continual thing that occurs throughout the day.......as the Spirit leads us.    God will act on certain things........whatever is best for us.   Some of this we will not understand until later on.  But that is what faith is all about..........trusting God that He will take care of us.....and that He will do for us what is in our best interest. 


"Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you."

"But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, AFTER YOU HAVE SUFFERED A WHILE, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you."

"To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever."

[nChrist]

First, great answers and discussion from David749.

I'm convinced that God loves to hear our prayers and that prayer is part of our daily fellowship with God. I also know that prayer has much to do with our peace with God and the quality of our closeness to Him. I think there are many reasons why some prayers are answered and some are not. One reason more than likely involves our own attitudes in prayer and what we ask for. Another reason might involve how often we give thanks for what God has already done for us - even the very small things. Do we have hearts of gratitude or do we take for granted what good things God does for us?

Many books have been written about the importance of prayer and how it can effect us in our daily lives. The biggest thing I think we should consider is our peace and fellowship with God. We must learn that God does things in His own way and in His own time, so we must learn how to wait upon the Lord. Me being in a hurry doesn't mean that God will be in a hurry. God does exactly as He pleases in heaven and on earth, and I know beyond any doubt that He does answer prayer. It may not be in the way that we wanted, and the answer might also be no. I'm also convinced beyond any doubt that God does work everything out for good for them who love Him. This doesn't hint that we always understand, and it may take time to understand why God worked out things in the way that He did.

Isaiah 55:6-11 KJV  Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:  7  Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.  8  For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.  9  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.  10  For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:  11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Are we to understand God? Does He give us more than we deserve? Do we show the proper gratitude? Are we wise in what we ask God for?

Did God send the earthquake and tsunami to Japan? How would we know? We do know that he knew about it before the foundation of the earth. Some will say that God sent the devastation as a judgment of some sort, just as some of the judgments mentioned in the Holy Bible. I don't think so. Isn't the US more deserving of judgment than Japan? I personally think it was a random act of the powers of nature. I also personally believe that prayer at this time will be very helpful for the survivors and the families of those killed.

As humans, we look more on the here and now, but God looks more at eternity. As Christians, we should know that our prayers are never wasted and God does love to hear prayers from His Children. Will our prayers change anything? Yes, if it's God's Will. I think it's wrong for us to think that prayer is worthless. I, for one, am alive today because of the power of prayer. Yes, I'm 100% convinced of this, so I give thanks for those who prayed for me. There are millions of people in Japan needing prayer right now, and I'm convinced that many of our prayers will be answered. In the meantime, we should not become angry with God and blame Him. Only God has all the answers, and we should not attempt to put ourselves in His place. It isn't what we would do in the same circumstances, rather of what God will do according to His Perfect Will.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[david749]

Thanks Tom for the post. 


"Blessed be the Lord, because He has heard the voice of my supplications!  The Lord is my strength and my shield;  my heart trusted in Him, and I am helped;  therefore my heart greatly rejoices, and with my song I will praise Him."


"Wait on the Lord;  be of good courage, and He shall strengthen your heart;  wait, I say, on the Lord!" 


From Psalm 27 and 28

[nChrist]

Thanks Tom for the post. 


"Blessed be the Lord, because He has heard the voice of my supplications!  The Lord is my strength and my shield;  my heart trusted in Him, and I am helped;  therefore my heart greatly rejoices, and with my song I will praise Him."


"Wait on the Lord;  be of good courage, and He shall strengthen your heart;  wait, I say, on the Lord!" 


From Psalm 27 and 28

Amen! - I love Psalms - I think mainly because they explore man's possibilities of a closer relationship/walk with God. He will draw us nearer if we want Him to.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[david749]

Amen to that Tom.   Have a pleasant week......with God's help. 


"Draw near to God and He will draw near to you."


"Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up."


"For the Lord has heard the voice of my weeping...."

[dontbesojumpy]

i'm not sure you guys understand what "tautological" means...

we shouldn't just pray because praying is good...and praying isn't just good because someone (even God) said so.

you're missing the entire point of me asking this...

Nchrist, you bring up a lot of points i strongly disagree with.
america is deserving of a judgment?
so God gave us free will, and now we deserve to be punished for using it?
"did God send the tsunami?"
how is this any different than saying Posiedon sent the Tsunami?

they live in the Ring of Fire, the most earthquake prone place on the planet. there's nothing even remotely supernatural about this happening. it's only tragic.

if God picks and chooses what prayers he answers depending on how grateful we are for "past answered prayers," why do "miracles" still happen even to people who haven't prayed AT ALL? if your theory is correct, God wouldn't do anything for these people.
Also, if God--YOUR IDEA OF GOD--requires such groveling and sucking up or HE withholds hearing your prayers, then He is the antithesis of a "perfect being." in fact, that would make him more of a premadonna than a lot of HUMANS. i know a lot of people who do not require thanks for "doing the right thing" or even doing favors. but God is less evolved than these people?

[dontbesojumpy]

either you believe God is PERFECT or you do not. if you believe in an imperfect God, then you are no different than someone who believes in Zeus or Minerva or Mithra or Ra.

if God is perfect, you need to think about what "perfect" means. that means "requires nothing else." if you believe God is perfect, then why are you saying he's so petty that he will refuse to answer a human NEED in dyer straights because you didn't fall on your face and thank him enough for something in the past? not even a nurse in a third-world hospital is this petty.

I think the real answer is God doesn't do anything. why would He?

that's the question; why would God intervene?

[dontbesojumpy]

also, if you say "we cannot understand why God does things"--this is exactly the same as saying "we cannot understand if it even WAS God." if we cannot understand why, then how can we even know it was God? a not just "sin running it's course on earth?"

[Soldier4Christ]

i'm not sure you guys understand what "tautological" means...

tautological = needless repetitions

I've found that most people using such words are attempting to show their superior intellect and logic by not keeping a simple subject simple.

we shouldn't just pray because praying is good...and praying isn't just good because someone (even God) said so.

you're missing the entire point of me asking this...

This is partially true however I don't think your point is missed at all. Praying is a part of a right relationship with God. If we truly love Him we will seek Him. If we love Him we will want to talk with Him, to be as close to Him as possible. This is what God wants ... for us to seek Him, to be with Him, to talk with Him. In that aspect it is because He wants us to pray to Him. It is a part of Him wanting those that willingly worship Him and do so out of their love for Him.

Nchrist, you bring up a lot of points i strongly disagree with.
america is deserving of a judgment?
so God gave us free will, and now we deserve to be punished for using it?
"did God send the tsunami?"
how is this any different than saying Posiedon sent the Tsunami?

they live in the Ring of Fire, the most earthquake prone place on the planet. there's nothing even remotely supernatural about this happening. it's only tragic.

God may have sent the tsunami as judgment or even as a warning of His coming judgment. The point is that when sin entered the world so did such things as these. Man was made by and for God, not God for man. As sinners that have rejected our God we do indeed deserve such punishment for by rejecting Him we have chosen that which is sinful and therefore chosen the consequences that goes along with it. That does not make God imperfect but rather it makes Him perfect, righteous and all powerful.

if God picks and chooses what prayers he answers depending on how grateful we are for "past answered prayers," why do "miracles" still happen even to people who haven't prayed AT ALL? if your theory is correct, God wouldn't do anything for these people.

Again who are we to know the thoughts of God? God chooses to do as He wants. He knows all things and He knows what will come of things in the future. God may well have plans for those people "who haven't prayed AT ALL". How do we know whether others will come to Him because of those miracles?

Also, if God--YOUR IDEA OF GOD--requires such groveling and sucking up or HE withholds hearing your prayers, then He is the antithesis of a "perfect being." in fact, that would make him more of a premadonna than a lot of HUMANS. i know a lot of people who do not require thanks for "doing the right thing" or even doing favors. but God is less evolved than these people?

Your idea of God seems to be to place Him on the level of humans. He is God not a human. He is the creator of all things. He has the power to create and to destroy all things as He so choses. In His wonderful mercy He has chosen to save those that willing accept Him as Lord and Savior and to let those that reject Him to go their own way into eternal destruction.

[nChrist]

also, if you say "we cannot understand why God does things"--this is exactly the same as saying "we cannot understand if it even WAS God." if we cannot understand why, then how can we even know it was God? a not just "sin running it's course on earth?"

It sounds like you're mad at God for some reason and want to blow off some steam. Several have offered you good answers to your questions, so take them or leave them. In the meantime, I'll pray for you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[david749]

I have been involved in the Social Services field for approx. 35 years.  Over the years and with experience I have been able to solve most problems on my own.  I was put in charge of a program that involved administering financial benefits to clients.  This went very well for about 10 years.  Then a problem arose involving some errors that I had made......without intent or even possible to foresee.  It resulted in a caretaker being shorted some money after my client passed away.  She wrote some letters to the government asking for her money.  Our business office became involved but over a period of 8 months and many attempts at various things.......we could not come up with a solution.  I ran out of answers.  I felt also that my job was at risk because of this error.  My many attempts over 8 months on my own strength and abilities had failed. 

I knew in the back of my mind that there was only one solution......for the caretaker to drop her appeals to the government for the money.  But why would she?  She was broke and in a desperate situation.  We had known each other a long time......but she needed the money badly. 

During the course of this investigation I noticed that I was becoming progressively stressed out.  This began to bother me because God has said "BE ANXIOUS FOR NOTHING".......AND "FEAR NOT, FOR I AM WITH YOU."

I thought about this for awhile and certainly did not want to disobey these commands.  I began to fully understand that anxiety and fear are actually in direct opposition to FAITH.  So.....I turned the problem completely over to God in faith........and the anxiety began to leave.  I put the priority of not being fearful or anxious.........over the possibility of losing my job.   And this is what I want.....to please God. 

So.......pleasing God became much more important to me than holding on to a job.


"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made know to God;  and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."

"Do not fear.......for God has come to test you."


"I sought the Lord, and He heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.  They looked to Him and were radiant, and their faces were not ashamed.  This poor man cried out, and the Lord heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.  The angel of the Lord encamps all around those who fear Him, and delivers them."


So.........I let the Lord fight the battle for me.  About one month after my prayer......I decided to send my own money (God's money) to help the girl.  Little to my knowledge........the Lord at the time was also working on her.  On the same day that she received the check from me.......she decided to drop the case completely.  She then shortly thereafter returned the money to me...... and wished me a good life. 

I feel that God was teaching me a lesson.........to let Him fight the battle......and to turn difficult and even seemingly hopeless situations over to Him.

And that is the value of prayer........which He showed to me first hand.


Israel's back was against the sea.........but God made an escape for them.........and fought the battle for them. 

[nChrist]

Amen Brother David!

Anyone who's been a Christian for any length of time can offer similar testimonies. Some will try to dismiss things as coincidence instead of the power of prayer, but the Christian knows. The world even makes fun of us in our thinking that God loves to hear our prayers. This is the world's loss, not ours. In the meantime, we will be enjoying the closeness of our Heavenly Father who loves and cares for us.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[nChrist]

Your idea of God seems to be to place Him on the level of humans. He is God not a human. He is the creator of all things. He has the power to create and to destroy all things as He so choses. In His wonderful mercy He has chosen to save those that willing accept Him as Lord and Savior and to let those that reject Him to go their own way into eternal destruction.

Amen!