Falling Toward Socialism and Worse

[nChrist]

In varying degrees, this is the opposite of FREEDOM, and that's where we are headed.

Things started out gradually with the "NEW DEAL". It was argued that it was okay for many reasons, but mainly because there was an emergency. INCOME TAX started out in the same way - as a temporary emergency. UM? - things like this rarely end up being temporary - DO THEY?

There was a time when hungry people and people with other life-sustaining needs were taken care of by churches and the generosity of big-hearted people who wanted to help. This is called FREEDOM. The government didn't STEAL your money by force and give it to someone you don't know - for a reason you don't know.

There was a time when the individual person chose what charities they wanted to support financially, and that's part of FREEDOM. You got to look at all of the circumstances and decide YES or NO on helping - based on your own opinions, not those of government. This pertained to every NECESSITY OF LIFE, and nobody dreamed of trying to make you buy someone a house, a car, a television, and other NON-NECESSITIES OF LIFE. It was just a MATTER OF COMMON SENSE. A BASIS RULE OF THUMB involved EATING:  you worked if you wanted to EAT. You didn't STEAL someone else's food or ask the government to do the STEALING FOR YOU because that wouldn't be FREEDOM. Things did start out gradually and most didn't object too harshly because people were starving to death. We've made a lot of SO-CALLED PROGRESS since then, and now they want to force us to pay for ABORTIONS in our country and others. Under the theory of COMMON SENSE AND FREEDOM, one would have to think that things like this COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE FORCED! WATCH and see what they're about to do.

Average Christians, regardless of wealth, still help more people than anyone else - AND that's over and beyond the money that the government STEALS from them. Being big-hearted and wanting to help someone is also a MATTER OF FREEDOM. Please keep in mind this is the opposite of being FORCED - COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY - FREEDOM! In a free country, you get what you earn, and you keep what you earn to spend however you wish, and that certainly includes helping others you want to help. There IS NO RIGHT to a house, a car, television set, or many other things that we are CURRENTLY FORCED to buy for others. This is SLAVERY - NOT FREEDOM! There is NO RIGHT to lay around getting drunk or high and thinking that it's only right for the government to force someone else to pay your bills. There shouldn't be ANY FREE LUNCH unless someone WANTS to VOLUNTARILY GIVE you one. Otherwise, you WORK if you want to EAT. It was WRONG to give generations of people what they need or want FROM THE LABOR OF OTHERS. This sent the WRONG MESSAGE to everyone and ended up victimizing the ENTIRE SOCIETY: the receivers - the government FORCIBLY STEALING - and the people being STOLEN FROM. This was a disaster of EPIC proportions where NOBODY WON - MORALS WERE DESTROYED - AND FREEDOM STARTED DISAPPEARING at an ever-increasingly rapid rate. NOW we are being FORCED to rescue banks and other businesses because their OWN CORRUPTION SUNK THEIR SHIP. The same people responsible for the CORRUPTION, including our GOVERNMENT, are the ones applying the funds we were forced to give in THE BAILOUT! Our GOVERNMENT doesn't know where 350 BILLION DOLLARS WENT - so they WANT 800 BILLION DOLLARS MORE! What happened to FREEDOM, morals, values, and ethics in the meantime? NEWSFLASH - Those things are either gone, or they are disappearing rapidly. The BIG QUESTION is not "Are we becoming a SOCIALIST COUNTRY," rather "HOW FAR ARE WE FROM BECOMING A HARDCORE COMMUNIST COUNTRY? Those of us who are old enough can reflect back on what FREEDOM AND A FREE COUNTRY used to mean!

[Soldier4Christ]

The "NEW DEAL" initiated by President F. D. Roosevelt did indeed send this nation into a downward spiral into socialism and did nothing to help the economy. In fact it extended the depression by many years. We see the same thing happening today again. I am convinced that those coming out with these programs have an agenda to repeat the failures (or should I say success depending on how one looks at it) of the Roosevelt era. A failure economically and a success in taking peoples freedoms away.

This agenda is not just the agenda of people. It goes far beyond that.

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

[nChrist]

Brother,

I think that Ephesians 6 fits this perfectly. We should know that the desired path of this world is not TOWARD GOD, rather the opposite. At the end of the desired path, there are systems of government that hate GOD and Christians. GOD is mocked and Christians are either persecuted or killed. WHY? They don't want to hear that THERE IS AN ALMIGHTY GOD IN CHARGE. They can't stand the thought of a RIGHTFUL AND RIGHTEOUS AUTHORITY FIGURE, and Christians talking about that Authority Figure represents a DANGER to their own power and authority over the people. That DICTATOR or POLITICAL PARTY wants to be god, and it's inconvenient for anyone else to define right and wrong. After all, ALMIGHTY GOD CALLS THEM WRONG!

I turned to this portion of Scripture in the Amplified Bible and wanted to share it with everyone. By the way, this is a wonderful Bible Study for everyone - ONE that we NEED!

Ephesians 6:10-13 AMP  In conclusion, be strong in the Lord [be empowered through your union with Him]; draw your strength from Him [that strength which His boundless might provides].  11  Put on God's whole armor [the armor of a heavy-armed soldier which God supplies], that you may be able successfully to stand up against [all] the strategies and the deceits of the devil.  12  For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.  13  Therefore put on God's complete armor, that you may be able to resist and stand your ground on the evil day [of danger], and, having done all [the crisis demands], to stand [firmly in your place].


In case any of our readers are wondering, the greatest forces of evil are fallen angels - the leader being called by many names:  devil, satan, lucifer, and some names that are even complementary. See the below for an interesting cross-reference - also from the Amplified Bible.

Isaiah 14:11-32 AMP  Your pomp and magnificence are brought down to Sheol (the underworld), along with the sound of your harps; the maggots [which prey upon dead bodies] are spread out under you and worms cover you [O Babylonian rulers].  12  How have you fallen from heaven, O light-bringer and daystar, son of the morning! How you have been cut down to the ground, you who weakened and laid low the nations [O blasphemous, satanic king of Babylon!]  13  And you said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit upon the mount of assembly in the uttermost north.  14  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.  15  Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol (Hades), to the innermost recesses of the pit (the region of the dead).  16  Those who see you will gaze at you and consider you, saying, Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms?--  17  Who made the world like a wilderness and overthrew its cities, who would not permit his prisoners to return home?  18  All the kings of the nations, all of them lie sleeping in glorious array, each one in his own sepulcher.  19  But you are cast away from your tomb like a loathed growth or premature birth or an abominable branch [of the family] and like the raiment of the slain; and you are clothed with the slain, those thrust through with the sword, who go down to the stones of the pit [into which carcasses are thrown], like a dead body trodden underfoot.  20  You shall not be joined with them in burial, because you have destroyed your land and have slain your people. May the descendants of evildoers nevermore be named!  21  Prepare a slaughtering place for his sons because of the guilt and iniquity of their fathers, so that they may not rise, possess the earth, and fill the face of the world with cities.  22  And I will rise up against them, says the Lord of hosts, and cut off from Babylon name and remnant, and son and son's son, says the Lord.  23  I will also make it a possession of the hedgehog and porcupine, and of marshes and pools of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction, says the Lord of hosts.  24  The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying, Surely, as I have thought and planned, so shall it come to pass, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand--  25  That I will break the Assyrian in My land, and upon My mountains I will tread him underfoot. Then shall the [Assyrian's] yoke depart from [the people of Judah], and his burden depart from their shoulders.  26  This is the [Lord's] purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth [regarded as conquered and put under tribute by Assyria]; and this is [His omnipotent] hand that is stretched out over all the nations.  27  For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who can annul it? And His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?  28  In the year that King Ahaz [of Judah] died there came this mournful, inspired prediction (a burden to be lifted up):  29  Rejoice not, O Philistia, all of you, because the rod [of Judah] that smote you is broken; for out of the serpent's root shall come forth an adder [King Hezekiah of Judah], and its [the serpent's] offspring will be a fiery, flying serpent. [II Kings 18:1, 3, 8.]  30  And the firstborn of the poor and the poorest of the poor [of Judah] shall feed on My meadows, and the needy will lie down in safety; but I will kill your root with famine, and your remnant shall be slain.  31  Howl, O gate! Cry, O city! Melt away, O Philistia, all of you! For there is coming a smoke out of the north, and there is no straggler in his ranks and none stands aloof [in Hezekiah's battalions].  32  What then shall one answer the messengers of the [Philistine] nation? That the Lord has founded Zion, and in her shall the poor and afflicted of His people trust and find refuge.

[Rhys]

There was a time when hungry people and people with other life-sustaining needs were taken care of by churches and the generosity of big-hearted people who wanted to help. This is called FREEDOM. The government didn't STEAL your money by force and give it to someone you don't know - for a reason you don't know.

While I agree with your basic argument in this thread, the above is simply not true. Governments have been involved in taking care of those who couldn't care for themselves since the Puritans settled in Massachusetts. I remember reading a complaint from someone in Connecticut in colonial days that a person "was taking too long to die and burdening the taxpayers"! Welfare was the responsibility of local, not Federal governments, but it was still a government function.

Churches should meet the need, but have never been very effective at doing it.

There was a time when the individual person chose what charities they wanted to support financially, and that's part of FREEDOM. You got to look at all of the circumstances and decide YES or NO on helping - based on your own opinions, not those of government. This pertained to every NECESSITY OF LIFE, and nobody dreamed of trying to make you buy someone a house, a car, a television, and other NON-NECESSITIES OF LIFE. It was just a MATTER OF COMMON SENSE. A BASIS RULE OF THUMB involved EATING:  you worked if you wanted to EAT. You didn't STEAL someone else's food or ask the government to do the STEALING FOR YOU because that wouldn't be FREEDOM. Things did start out gradually and most didn't object too harshly because people were starving to death. We've made a lot of SO-CALLED PROGRESS since then, and now they want to force us to pay for ABORTIONS in our country and others. Under the theory of COMMON SENSE AND FREEDOM, one would have to think that things like this COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE FORCED! WATCH and see what they're about to do.

I agree here. Some on welfare live better than those who work to pay for it. Welfare should only pay for the basic necessities of life, and then only for those who are really unable to work. Those who can work should be made to either get a job or do public service in return for benefits.

Average Christians, regardless of wealth, still help more people than anyone else - AND that's over and beyond the money that the government STEALS from them. Being big-hearted and wanting to help someone is also a MATTER OF FREEDOM. Please keep in mind this is the opposite of being FORCED - COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY - FREEDOM! In a free country, you get what you earn, and you keep what you earn to spend however you wish, and that certainly includes helping others you want to help.

Maybe. While there is no forced giving in the Bible, (God loves a cheerful giver) the principle is that it is God's money, not yours, and that you should be using it as God directs. The attitude should be that God has blessed you with it, not that "I earned it by my own skills and effort  and it is mine to do with as I like".  Too many Christians seem to forget this.

It is ironic that those who condemned welfare for individuals over the last decades - right wing businessmen and financiers, are now lined up at the public trough for corporate welfare! And while there is a lot in the Bible about helping the poor, there is absolutely nothing about giving to bail out poorly run businesses.

The "NEW DEAL" initiated by President F. D. Roosevelt did indeed send this nation into a downward spiral into socialism and did nothing to help the economy. In fact it extended the depression by many years. We see the same thing happening today again. I am convinced that those coming out with these programs have an agenda to repeat the failures (or should I say success depending on how one looks at it) of the Roosevelt era. A failure economically and a success in taking peoples freedoms away.

The New Deal was actually an attempt to preserve capitalism, not institute socialism. It did succeed at that. Communism was gaining ground even in the US as the Depression dragged on. By giving people hope, Roosevelt held off the possibility of revolt either through the polls or violent revolution while buying time for the economy to recover. His programs may not have actually helped the economy to recover, but they probably didn't hurt it much either.

The same situation doesn't hold today, in spite of media hype. We have nowhere near 25% unemployment, no armies of homeless riding the rails, no social unrest as yet. People can get unemployment, welfare, job training - all of which were results of the "New Deal" and help provide social stability through tough times.  I really don't see a need to throw billions at financial services, especially when it isn't closely regulated to make sure it doesn't go into people's pockets.

[Soldier4Christ]

The socialists have found a way to get around the Second Amendment without doing away with it.

Illinois Bill Would Require Gun Owners to Buy $1M in Liability Insurance

An Illinois state lawmaker is proposing that gun owners be required to carry personal liability insurance of at least $1 million.

Rep. Kenneth Dunkin's bill seeks to amend the state's Firearm Owners Identification Card Act to provides that any person who owns a firearm in the state maintain a $1 million or higher policy of liability insurance "specifically covering any damages resulting from negligent or willful acts involving the use of such firearm while it is owned by such person."

A gun owner would be responsible after a firearm is lost or stolen until the loss or theft is reported to the police department or sheriff of the jurisdiction in which the owner resides.

Police would be empowered to pull the gun license of anyone who does not submit evidence of having the required insurance.

The measure is now in the House Rules Committee.

This will virtually take guns away from all law abiding citizens as no one will be able to afford the insurance which actually doesn't exist to begin with.

[Rhys]

Money - that IS the American way to take away rights while pretending to uphold them! Money will be the way freedom of religion is taken away, not outright prohibition.

Just make sure the government doesn't know you own guns, and can't prove they are yours if they find them. The best way to keep government out of your life is to make sure they know as little as possible about you, and that other people know even less. Keep your mouth shut.

Actually no anti-gun laws are effective. Guns are 14th century technology - anyone with hand tools and reasonable skills can make one, and anyone with a lathe and milling machine could mass produce them. Ammunition is the weak link.

But actually it won't come to that - organized crime will fill the need as they did in prohibition.

What would be really interesting is if people start applying 21st century technology to personal armaments. No noise, no trace, doesn't look like a gun?

[nChrist]

This is illegal and Unconstitutional on it's face. They're getting desperate, but ridiculous at the rate that nobody is going to pay attention to them. I do mean NOBODY.

Can't you just see the criminals saving up to pay their insurance every year?    ;D

I think that the Three Stooges would call this guy suggesting this a RUBE!

The government can't run anything because they are too corrupt and INEPT. The Federal Government needs to be reduced to their Constitutional limit and take their noses out of State and Local business. After all, government is at the root of the current mess and most of our problems. I almost trust the Feds to handle THEIR OWN bathroom breaks, and that's just about it. It's hard to think that their real responsibility is national defense. Check the borders and give them a report card. Regardless, I will have to give George Bush credit for preventing another 9-11, but that didn't involve much from the House and Senate.

JUST SAY NO!

[Soldier4Christ]

We are no longer falling toward socialism but rather socialism is here and we are now falling toward communism as each and every day goes by that our left leaning government leans heavier toward that side with each bill that they pass. Most of these bills are not getting any amount of notice by the media as they are concentrating on such things that have been put out as smoke screens such as the AIG bonuses issue. An issue which the democrats knew of and approved in advance and are now complaining about in order to prevent the public from seeing what truly is going on.

HR Bill 1388 was passed on 20 Mar. This bill is the one that established and will make membership in Obama's Brownshirt Organization mandatory. Officially it is being called the “National Civilian Security Force”. The following link is the official website for the U.S. Public Service Academy (Indoctrinate U.)

http://uspublicserviceacademy.org/

This next one is about an organization called "Organizing for America" that is to set the stage and gather information for this action.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/03/23/video-organizing-for-americas-training-program/


The Obama administration is considering asking Congress to give the Treasury secretary unprecedented powers to initiate the seizure of non-bank financial companies, such as large insurers, investment firms and hedge funds, whose collapse would damage the broader economy, according to an administration document.

The government at present has the authority to seize only banks.

Giving the Treasury secretary authority over a broader range of companies would mark a significant shift from the existing model of financial regulation, which relies on independent agencies that are shielded from the political process. The Treasury secretary, a member of the president’s Cabinet, would exercise the new powers in consultation with the White House, the Federal Reserve and other regulators, according to the document.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/23/AR2009032302830.html

Now we find that we have "Fusion Centers" nationwide collecting information against the citizens of the U.S. that decide to take a stand against this garbage. Yes, even those that are doing so legally and labeling them as "threats".

Secret document leaked: The Obama administration is branding libertarians and abortion opponents as hidden terrorists

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/03/23/fusion-centers-expand-criteria-identify-militia-members/

[Rhys]

Now we find that we have "Fusion Centers" nationwide collecting information against the citizens of the U.S. that decide to take a stand against this garbage. Yes, even those that are doing so legally and labeling them as "threats".

Secret document leaked: The Obama administration is branding libertarians and abortion opponents as hidden terrorists

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/03/23/fusion-centers-expand-criteria-identify-militia-members/

I didn't vote for Obama and am no Obama fan, but as a Christian I believe it is our obligation to be fair. This report was published on Feb. 20, which means it was researched and written over a fairly long period before that, during the time George Bush was president, not Barak Obama.

Bush and Cheney had absolutely no problem with trashing constitutional rights, spying on Americans, etc. Nor were they either conservatives or Christians. Certainly the Obama administration will probably take these things to new levels, but Bush was the one who made it possible!

[Soldier4Christ]

While it is true that Homeland Security was initiated under the Bush Administration the Fusion Centers are something new Under the Obama Administration. Although I am against some of the things done by the Homeland Security under Bush/Cheney this is not one of them and was something added in by Obama recently. Something else to take note on. Many policies that are implemented before are now being used in a manner other than what they were originally meant for.

[Brother Jerry]

Well I have some points to make...  of course

Rhys, you mentioned that Communism was on the rise with Roosevelt.  And I would have to say that yes it was, but no where near the rise you are implying there.  Communism got its boost in territory with WWII.  And even after that they lost territory when China split and decided to become their own state.

PR as far as Fusion Centers, I am sad to say that too was a Bush thing.  Right from DHS website:
http://www.dhs.gov/xinfoshare/programs/gc_1156877184684.shtm

You can see that by Dec 2008 it states that officers were being deployed.

[Soldier4Christ]

Yeah, I see now that there was mention of Fusion Centers even before 2007 so I stand corrected on that part. There were many things that were initiated during the Bush Administration that I didn't like and could see how it could be used to further the agenda of communism even though in the right hands the same policies are a good thing.

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

Now it's almost impossible to tell who did what and for what reason. However, it is clear that we didn't arrive in our current state in 10 years. Multiple administrations did stupid things that would be deemed to be destructive for the people. Much of it was probably intentional. The difference now is that most of the news media isn't covering anything. The opposite was true in coverage of the Bush administration.

At least partial blame for our current circumstances could be assigned for administrations back 50 years and more. However, we are watching a dramatic escalation OUT IN THE OPEN right now that isn't being covered by most of the news media. In fact, there appears to be an effort to keep the people in the dark about what's going on. One could take destructive acts of the past and multiply them by 100 or more and be close to what we are watching today.

Regardless, one can clearly track the actions that lead up to the collapse to the Clinton Administration and before. Dangerous and stupid things were started and EXPANDED. Many leaders at all levels should have known about what was going on and did NOTHING. Some paid lip-service but were meek. NOW, the LEADER HIMSELF openly threatens those who stand up, SO ALL must stand up or lose what's left of our country. Threats or actions of any kind to reduce or eliminate freedoms and rights MUST NOT BE TOLERATED IN A FREE COUNTRY! All of us need to be using every form of communication to demand that our representatives STAND UP! AND, we must STAND UP behind those representatives WHO DO! NO!!  --  WE WILL NOT SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP!!

[Brother Jerry]

AMEN to that BEP.  Look at NAFTA...was ushered in with trumpets and fanfare, and that was the product of at least 2 admins, both Rep and Dem.

[Soldier4Christ]

'Mandatory youth service' bill advances
House version commissions panel to consider 'volunteer' requirement

Congress appears ready to pass an Obama administration plan that could create mandatory public service requirements for all American youth, fulfilling a campaign promise.

The bill, HR 1388: The Generations Invigorating Volunteerism and Education Act, otherwise known as the "GIVE Act," has already passed the House by a vote of 321-105.

On Tuesday, the Senate voted closure on the motion to proceed by a margin of 74-14 in a move that makes its ultimate passage likely.

The bill, promoted by the Obama administration as a means of encouraging America's youth to participate in voluntary community service, has received little scrutiny from Congress or the public.

Yet, a version of the bill in the House proposes to establish a Congressional Commission on Civil Service tasked with determining whether a mandatory service requirement for all young people in America could be developed and implemented, though it is not clear that provision will survive a conference committee.

Moreover, an amendment to the bill introduced by Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., one of the bill's 37 co-sponsors in the House, appears to severely restrict the First Amendment by prohibiting the youth participating in the program from attempting to influence legislation, organize or engage in protests, petitions, boycotts or strikes.

Funds under the bill are designated to be distributed through AmeriCorps, even though AmeriCorps volunteers have a history of being recruited and employed by community programs with an ideological purpose supported by Democratic Party politicians, including Planned Parenthood.

Under terms of the legislation, volunteers recruited into AmeriCorps through the GIVE Act could end up counseling Planned Parenthood clients to recommend and arrange abortions.

It is uncertain whether restrictions will survive into the final legislation that would prohibit GIVE Act participants from being recruited under the program to work in ACORN, a radical community organizing group facing criminal charges in several states for voter fraud.

"The purpose of the bill is to require mandatory community service for all young people in the United States," Rep. Ted Poe, R-Texas, told WND in a telephone interview.

"The mobilization of the youth to put them into community work environments that are specified in the bill raises questions about who will be teaching the youth and what is deemed appropriate community service," he said.

"It's great young people should do community service, but to have mandatory government-run community service projects may be a different thing," Poe stressed, explaining why he voted against the bill. "It's better if we can encourage young people to volunteer, and when you require something of them you are certainly not volunteering, and to place them only in government-controlled programs concerns me."

Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa, who also voted against the GIVE Act, expressed to WND his reservations.

"I opposed the bill because it would expand and authorize programs that have been audited and considered ineffective by the Office of Management and Budget, which does not align with the administration's stated plans of encouraging transparency and accountability in all federal programs."

WND telephoned the office of Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., the bill's sponsor in the House, to ask for comment on this story, but did not receive an immediate response.

Larry Hart, director of government relations for the American Conservative Union, said the history of the program goes back to the VISTA program under the Carter administration.

The problem is that taxpayer funds under the GIVE Act could end up getting paid to volunteers in organizations that are doing political advocacy activity," Hart said.

"Whether the safeguards in the GIVE Act that are sufficiently strong to prohibit taxpayer funds from being used for political advocacy remains to be seen, until the Senate passes a final bill and the House-Senate conference committee gets together on final language," he said.

According to Fox News, the legislation could cost up to $6 billion over five years and would create 175,000 "new service opportunities" under AmeriCorps.

WND previously reported that the GIVE Act may be the first step taken by the Obama administration to create what candidate Obama called his "National Civilian Security Force" in a speech last year in which he urged creating an organization as big and well-funded as the U.S. military.

WND also reported when a copy of the speech provided online apparently was edited to exclude Obama's specific references to the new force.

Obama's chief of staff Rahm Emanuel coauthored a 2006 book entitled "The Plan: Big Ideas for America' that called for three months of compulsory civil service for all Americans aged 18 to 25.

The Obama/Biden campaign website proclaims that "Obama and Biden will expand AmeriCorps and the Peace Corps with "a goal that all middle and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year, and will establish a new tax credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year."

After completing college at Columbia University, Obama in 1983 became a community organizer in the Chicago-based Developing Communities Project, an organization that operated according to principles articulated by Saul Alinsky, whose 1971 book "Rules for Radicals" articulated a socialist strategy for gaining political power to redistribute wealth from the "haves" to the "have-nots."