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Rest
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« on: May 04, 2003, 05:05:32 PM »

Hey there,

I am interested in seeing views concerning the death of Christ, whether they agree or not with my own.

Question:  Christ died on the cross.  For whom did he die?

Please feek free to "speak your mind" or quote scripture.

Thanks
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Early57
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2003, 05:25:47 PM »

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believith in him should not parish but have everlasting life.



whosoever


The sacrifice is for whosoever.


Any and all may come and receive eternal life.
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Tibby
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2003, 05:34:06 PM »

lol, do you know easily this could turn into a war on semantics?

Christ died for us. Christ died for our sins. He died in our place so that we would never have to face the fires of hell and damnation, but spend our eternal life with him.
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Rest
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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2003, 08:56:58 PM »

No semantics.  Did He die and take away the sin of those who ultimately don't believe in Him?
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Early57
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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2003, 03:51:23 AM »

He died for all sins for all time for all people.


You have the choice to accept or reject, or better yet, you have to responsibility to accept or reject and based on your decission you are redeemed or not.  The price is paid but you have to pick up the gift.


He did not take away anyone's sins.  He paid the price for them,  they still exist, the sins, but the penalty is taken care of IF you do your part.
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Sammy
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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2003, 01:45:10 PM »

I think we actually should go to hell for our sins.  Why pass the buck on jesus christ.  Maybe if we accept responsibility for our actions we will retroactively ease his suffering.  

I mean, if someone is guilty of Murder, what does it have to do with Christ?  Or is it only "Original Sin?'

Did christ work Retroactively, or did all of the people who lived before Christ go to hell?

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Early57
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2003, 04:27:12 PM »

Sammy there is a book you should read and if you do it will supply your every answer.  


The Holy Bible


The question of sins being paid for is and has been answered for you Sammy and you are so blind and deaf that you must be told again and again.  

Do you ask because you want to be a follower of Jesus?
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asaph
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« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2003, 04:04:16 AM »



He did not take away anyone's sins.  He paid the price for them,  they still exist, the sins, but the penalty is taken care of IF you do your part.
Oh really! Square your words up with scripture, Early57.

1 John 3
4   Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5   And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6   Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7   Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8   He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9   Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10   In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11   For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Romans 6
1   What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2   God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Hebrews 10
4   For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Are you equating the blood of Jesus with the blood of bulls and goats?

John 8
10   When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11   She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

John 8
32   And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33   They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34   Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35   And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36   If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

John 1
29   The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Matthew 1
21   And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Isaiah 53
6   All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
11...for he shall bear their iniquities.
12...and he bare the sin of many...

To bear means to lift up. Christ lifted up our sins. As far as the east is from the west so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

2 Cor 5
21   For he [Christ is the subject] hath made [better: took] him ["him" is not in the greek]  to be ["to be" is not in the greek] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Now read-
21   For he [Christ] took sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

How can you say He did not take our sins away?

asaph




« Last Edit: May 06, 2003, 04:06:49 AM by asaph » Logged
Petro
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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2003, 04:43:21 PM »

quote] posted by Rest,
Post;[
I am interested in seeing views concerning the death of Christ, whether they agree or not with my own.

Question: Christ died on the cross. For whom did he die?

Please feek free to "speak your mind" or quote scripture.

Thanks
Quote

Quote
Reply #3
No semantics.  Did He die and take away the sin of those who ultimately don't believe in Him?

Rest,


To answer your second question first, the answer,  would have to be , No.

For this reason, the manifested Grace of God is in the love of his dear Son, and the promise of the gift of Faith, is given to them that believe Him (God the Father).

Believing God..,  is the question, which must be settled in ones mind before one can understand, that it is Faith in the Word of God, which He put in the mouth of His Son and,  spoken to all that will Hear the word of God which Jesus spoke, that saves.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God Rom 10:17

So, everyone who hears the word of God potentially can receive faith, and one must have faith to believe.

Here are some verses, which develops this line of doctrine;

Jesus said;

Jhn 12
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.  
47   And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.  
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.  
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
I might add the verse which, goes along with what Rest has said;

Now please note verse 49 above, and compare Gods own words , which were prophecied by Moses at ;

Deut 18
17  And the LORD said unto me, ...........................
18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

There are many people that believe in Jesus, but do not believe his words

Case in point, Mormons, JW's, Roman Catholics, and even some who consider themselves saved by him, because they have had some kind of experience and many others, who in spite of Jesus's own words, promising "Eternal Life" to whomsoever will; deny this is so. they say, only if you keep the commandments, which means they  believe and even teach, that once saved one must obey the commandments, if one sins, he forfeits "eternal ife"
This is denial and rejection of Jesus's own words making Him out to be a liar...in my opinion, these are those whom have been deceived into believing they are the sheep of God, when in fact they are the deceived goats spoken of in (Mat 25, or Mat 7:21-24)

The answer to your first question, is not difficult if one considers what I have written in response to your second question.

But lets look at the question, closely;


Quote
Question: Christ died on the cross. For whom did he die?

We read in;

Mat 1
19  Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20  But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

It is not hard to ascertain from scripture who HIS people are, we know He (GOD) chose a man from all the peoples of the earth, whom, HE made promises to of an eternal nature, His name is Abraham, these promise were extended to Abraham's children, they are called the "seed of the promise", and in the new covenant the "seed of the promise: is defined and revealed for us, read;

Rom 9
6  .................................For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So then, these are His people whom are spoken of, and then again He pin points who these are;

Rom 4
 8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9  Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10  How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12  And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14  For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18  Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19  And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20  He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

So what then, potentially the whole world could have been saved by the shedding of the blood of Jesus, but because some won't believe Gods own Words, spoken of by Jesus, they are not given the free gift of Faith necessary to believe to the saving of the soul.

Continued************Petro

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« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2003, 04:45:32 PM »

Is God unjust for this, NO, those who never wanted to hear, or understand remain in ignorance., while those who hear and receive the good word of truth, are given what they desire, and what is that?? But, to be forgiven of their sin, these then are His People while, those who had no interest, get what they want, and in the end, everybody is happy; because both receive exactly what they desire.  

I still would not call this free will, simply because while in sin, they are in bondage to sin, the fact remains, that they are offered forgiveness of sin the same as everyone else, but "they loved their sin, more than they love the truth"..and so to these Jesus says;

Jhn 8
21  Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22  Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

If the following are  true statements the bible gives us;

Rom 3
10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.  
23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5
12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 3
24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Then all deserve to be judged as Sammy has stated;

And if  God the creator who loves to love and be loved, chooses to save some by his grace, and desires to save a people for himself from among those who perish, whats the problem with that..Doesn't a Sovereign Creator judge have the right to do what seems right to Him.

If all are condemned because All are sinners, can't the judge of all the earth, pardon those who seek mercy from judgement acknowledging they are worthy of death.  

What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (Rom 9:22-23)


It is no secret, God has made it known from the begining to man, he will pardon those who repent, if come by faith, He will even supply the faith necessary to believe Him.

Whats wrong with that..

Blessings,

Petro
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ollie
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« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2003, 05:46:59 PM »

Hey there,

I am interested in seeing views concerning the death of Christ, whether they agree or not with my own.

Question:  Christ died on the cross.  For whom did he die?

Please feek free to "speak your mind" or quote scripture.

Thanks
1 Corinthians 15:3.  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

For the individual sins of the church at Corinth.

Roman's 5:6.  For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The ungodly.


Romans5:8.  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Former sinners that now make up the church at Rome.


Romans14: 15.  But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

1 Corinthians 8:11.  And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

Brothers in Christ.


Matthew 9:13.  But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Mark 2:17.  When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
 Luke 5:32.  I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Repentant sinners.

Acts 10:35.  But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

He that worketh God's righteousness.


 Romans 3:20.  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
 21.  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
 22.  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
 23.  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 24.  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
 25.  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
 26.  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The faithful in Christ, believers.


 Acts 20:28.  Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
 Ephesians 5:25.  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

The church





« Last Edit: May 06, 2003, 05:49:50 PM by ollie » Logged
Early57
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« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2003, 10:03:39 PM »

So if He took away the sins I commited then the car I helped steal was never stolen?  The drugs I sold were never sold?


He took away the guilt and the penalty, but the actions that happened did happen.

He cast them into the sea of forgetfulness, not the sea of they never existed.

He choose to forget, not that he can't remember but he choose to forget.

What about when a person kills someone and then becomes a Christian, does that mean that the person they killed is no longer dead?
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2003, 01:42:57 AM »

Quote
So if He took away the sins I commited then the car I helped steal was never stolen?  The drugs I sold were never sold?


He took away the guilt and the penalty, but the actions that happened did happen.

He cast them into the sea of forgetfulness, not the sea of they never existed.

He choose to forget, not that he can't remember but he choose to forget.

What about when a person kills someone and then becomes a Christian, does that mean that the person they killed is no longer dead?

Early, you first have to realize that scripture clearly teaches that He did take away our sin.  Asaph gave more than enough scripture to support that.  What you must then do, is put it into proper perspective and biblical hermenuetic.  Is Jesus saying that the sin you committed never happened?  As far as the penalty for that sin is concerned, yes.  As far as the responsibility thereof, however, no.  Why?  Because if that were so, there would remain no need of making retribution for sinful practice, or asking forgiveness from those we've sinned against.  If in sin, I angrily break my brothers TV in an act of vengeance, then in making that right I must replace what I've destroyed.

This isn't, I believe however, what is being spoken of when scripture tells us that ours sins have been taken away.  I believe that it refers to a former life habit steeped in sinful practice.  Paul, in Romans 6, is very explicit concerning the unnecessary continuation of the believer in sinful practice.  We are dead to sin.  That sin, in a very real sense, has been taken away.  We have received in salvation the removal of sins penalty.  As God works in us to conform us to the image of His Son, we are graciously moved out of the realm of sins power.  That complete freedom from sins power doesn't happen until we reach eternity, where we are removed from sins presence.  These three concepts, penalty, power, and presence may sound like familiar doctrines, and well so!  They are justification (penalty), sanctification (power), and glorification (presence).

It is interesting, when considering these truths, to note that God often in His word refers to sanctification in both the on-going and completed forms.  We are being sanctified, and yet are sanctified from our sinful lives.  Our sins, have been taken away!  Make sense?
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"that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death"
ollie
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« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2003, 06:16:59 PM »

 Acts 22:16.  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


1Corinthians 6:11.  And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


 Ephesians 5:25.  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
 26.  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
 27.  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.



 Titus 3:5.  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 6.  Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


 Revelation 1:5.  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,





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« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2003, 06:37:28 AM »

CHrist died on the cross for God had forgiven everyone for their sin and those who believed in him shall live through eternity
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