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2nd Timothy
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« on: January 06, 2004, 06:17:57 PM »

Israel Identifies 28 Outposts for Removal

AP news


The area in question, if I am not mistaken, is also known as Judea.

Just wondering what others think about this situation in light of the following...

For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. (Isaiah 14:1)

"And the LORD will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem…" (Zechariah 2:12)

"'For I will set My eyes on them for good, and I will bring them back to this land; I will build them and not pull them down, and I will plant them and not pluck them up…" (Jeremiah 24:6-7)

"I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; they shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. I will plant them in their land, and no longer shall they be pulled up from the land I have given them," says the LORD your God. (Amos 9:14-15)

Grace and Peace!
« Last Edit: January 06, 2004, 06:25:15 PM by 2nd Timothy » Logged

Tim

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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2004, 07:23:07 AM »

Israel Identifies 28 Outposts for Removal

AP news


The area in question, if I am not mistaken, is also known as Judea.

Just wondering what others think about this situation in light of the following...

For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. (Isaiah 14:1)

"And the LORD will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem…" (Zechariah 2:12)

"'For I will set My eyes on them for good, and I will bring them back to this land; I will build them and not pull them down, and I will plant them and not pluck them up…" (Jeremiah 24:6-7)

"I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; they shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. I will plant them in their land, and no longer shall they be pulled up from the land I have given them," says the LORD your God. (Amos 9:14-15)

Grace and Peace!

2d tim,

What do you think?

Must this occur before the Lords return?


Petro
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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2004, 01:33:21 PM »

Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Quote
2d tim,

What do you think?

Must this occur before the Lords return?

Petro,

Good question!  My answer is, I don't know!  Very well could be the case and wouldn't surprise me at all.  From other scripture, Judea seems to be the place where great tribulation begins, (or at least is spoken of) in connection with the beast setting up abomonation of desolation.  Then follows....

Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This seems to happen after the Antichrist sets up in the temple.  In this news article, we see plans for Judea to be uprooted before hand.   While I do tend to view this as another indication of the nearness of His return (shadows of near future events...my opinion only), I am just currious how others see view this event in light of scripture provided in the original post.

Back to the original question.  What do you think about Sharon uprooting outposts in Judea?  Does this go against the word of God?  Or am I reading Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, and Amos wrong?  Maybe I am reading these wrong?  Just asking.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2004, 02:03:34 PM »

2nd:
Amo 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

Amos tells here that the nation of Israel will stay forver after it has been established, yet that people will want to pluck the plantings of the Lord, and after that period He will come to take care of that little problem.

So now that we are almost 60 years after its foundation, almost 40 years after Jerusalem & the disputed territories where taken, the latter part of Amos 9:15 becomes a reality.

What the world does not realise however is that God is in control over there.

_______

I find it funny that as I read throgh Amos 9 *everything* came to pass, yet the 'tiny'  9:15b section has not been fullfilled in completion.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2004, 02:08:39 PM by twobombs » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2004, 02:08:09 PM »

Quote
What the world does not realise however is that God is in control over there

Amen twobombs!

Grace and Peace!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2004, 02:11:57 PM by 2nd Timothy » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2004, 08:41:07 PM »

Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Quote
2d tim,

What do you think?

Must this occur before the Lords return?

Petro,

Good question!  My answer is, I don't know!  Very well could be the case and wouldn't surprise me at all.  From other scripture, Judea seems to be the place where great tribulation begins, (or at least is spoken of) in connection with the beast setting up abomonation of desolation.  Then follows....

Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This seems to happen after the Antichrist sets up in the temple.  In this news article, we see plans for Judea to be uprooted before hand.   While I do tend to view this as another indication of the nearness of His return (shadows of near future events...my opinion only), I am just currious how others see view this event in light of scripture provided in the original post.

It is clear to me this must occur before the Lords return.

If I understand what Jesus is saying correctly.

The parallel passage to Mat 24, is Mk 13:

14  But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15  And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16  And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17  But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18  And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19  For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

 and Lk 21
20  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21  Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22  For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

In discussing the rapture, where was it you would insert it, in the these verses?

Quote
Back to the original question.  What do you think about Sharon uprooting outposts in Judea?  Does this go against the word of God?  Or am I reading Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, and Amos wrong?  Maybe I am reading these wrong?  Just asking.

Grace and Peace!

No I don't see it going against Gods word at all, what I see is fulfillment, which will lead to the revelation of the man of sin, clearing Judea out is one of the key negotiated points leading up of the peace agreement, when the agreement is  entered into, the son of perdition is 2 Th 1:1-9, shall bring in the adomionation of desolution.

 Thess two are a big problem for the immenency doctrine.

Since both of the these have not occured as of yet.

Blessings,
Petro
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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2004, 07:40:30 AM »

Quote
In discussing the rapture, where was it you would insert it, in the these verses?

Quote:
Back to the original question.  What do you think about Sharon uprooting outposts in Judea?  Does this go against the word of God?  Or am I reading Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, and Amos wrong?  Maybe I am reading these wrong?  Just asking.

 

No I don't see it going against Gods word at all, what I see is fulfillment, which will lead to the revelation of the man of sin, clearing Judea out is one of the key negotiated points leading up of the peace agreement, when the agreement is  entered into, the son of perdition is 2 Th 1:1-9, shall bring in the adomionation of desolution.

Thess two are a big problem for the immenency doctrine.

Since both of the these have not occured as of yet.

Interesting.  I was not viewing this event in light of rapture timming, or immenancy.  Just looking at this one event, in view of...
Amos 9:14-15
"I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; they shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. I will plant them in their land, and no longer shall they be pulled up from the land I have given them," says the LORD your God.

That was my whole point.

As for the rapture timing, I agree that these things might take place before the rapture, although I can also see where he could come at anytime before any of these things as well. Not that I'm right mind you...just my own thought.   Jesus himself said he does not know, only the Father knows.  Considering our Fathers great wisdom, and knowing his timing is perfect, I'm more than willing to Place my trust in that.  That doesn't mean I wont ponder what his timing may be, but that is for another thread.


For this thread, I really just wanted to hear how my fellow brothers and sisters view this news event in light of Jeremiah 24:6-7, and Amos 9:14-15.  I too agree that this event appears to be setting things up.  I know that Jewish people are not happy, understandibly, about Sharon pulling up these settlements .  I wonder how they view Sharons plans in light of Gods promises?  I am really currious to see if he really goes through with it, which it seems he will.  I think the next few weeks and months will be interesting to watch as this develops.

Any other thoughts, anybody?

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2004, 09:28:00 PM »

Sound like things are normal in the middleast.
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2004, 04:04:24 AM »

Israel Identifies 28 Outposts for Removal

AP news


The area in question, if I am not mistaken, is also known as Judea.

Just wondering what others think about this situation in light of the following...

For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. (Isaiah 14:1)

"

Hi there!

No, the passage you are referencing pertains to the Jews, God's chosen people.


The outposts pertain to the Palestinians, who are not Jews, but muslims.  The entire West Bank and Gaza are areas where the Palestians want to establish THEIR nation, taking the area from the JEWISH nation.   (edited to add:  The outposts were established to "house" the Palestinians as refugees.  There are refugee camps throughout the Middle East to house displaced Palestinians, Jordan has 50,000+ such residents)


Those in the West Bank believe that they will eventually receive THEIR land from Israel.

I believe the passages you cite were fulfilled in  1947/1948 when Israel became a nation.


Related to your news item... in today's news, and a better clarification of the situation.


http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS?SITE=MIDTF&SECTION=HOME


~serapha~
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2004, 04:54:57 AM »

Quote
I believe the passages you cite were fulfilled in  1947/1948 when Israel became a nation.
A nation that did not (and still does not legally) include the West Bank, the Gaza Strip or the Golan Heights.

Quote
The outposts pertain to the Palestinians, who are not Jews, but muslims.
Most Palestinians are Muslims, but a significant minority are Christians.
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2004, 08:41:00 AM »

Israel Identifies 28 Outposts for Removal

AP news


The area in question, if I am not mistaken, is also known as Judea.

Just wondering what others think about this situation in light of the following...

For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. (Isaiah 14:1)

"

Hi there!

No, the passage you are referencing pertains to the Jews, God's chosen people.


The outposts pertain to the Palestinians, who are not Jews, but muslims.  The entire West Bank and Gaza are areas where the Palestians want to establish THEIR nation, taking the area from the JEWISH nation.   (edited to add:  The outposts were established to "house" the Palestinians as refugees.  There are refugee camps throughout the Middle East to house displaced Palestinians, Jordan has 50,000+ such residents)


Those in the West Bank believe that they will eventually receive THEIR land from Israel.

I believe the passages you cite were fulfilled in  1947/1948 when Israel became a nation.


Related to your news item... in today's news, and a better clarification of the situation.


http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS?SITE=MIDTF&SECTION=HOME


~serapha~

Hi serapha,

Maybe this is why some do not understand why I am asking this question.   The outposts identified for removal are not palestinian outposts, they are unauthorized Jewish settlers.  

quoted from Israelinsider.com:
The 28 outposts were all established after March 2001 (when Ariel Sharon became prime minister) and the Defense Ministry has no doubts that their establishment was without authorization, Maariv reported. According to the "road map" peace plan, Israel is committed to remove all unauthorized outposts.

The largest outpost on the short-list is Migron, a community near Ramallah that is home to 43 families. Residents of Migron and their supporters threatened last month to stage their "last stand" in Migron against any efforts to evacuate Jewish settlements in the West Bank. Last week Sharon and Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz signed evacuation orders for four outposts, including the inhabited Ginot Aryeh
-end of quote-

Read the entire article here.
israelinsider

While they are unauthorized (by Jewish government I assume), they do appear to be Jewish settlers not Palestinians.

So I guess a new question begs to be asked now...Did God plant these Jewish settlers?  Maybe not...but If so, then we come back to my original question.  Can they, going by Gods word (Jer and Amos), be uprooted without judgment coming to pass on the uprooter?

Maybe I need to do a bit more research on how the settlers came into being.   I just happened across the original news story and understood it to be speaking of Jewish people, not Palestinians.

Maybe someone knows more about the settlers and how they came into being?

Grace and Peace!

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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2004, 10:29:08 PM »

Conflicting statements..... from both sides...

http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/99/11/settlement.htm






http://www.betar.co.uk/facts/settlements.php



And an itemized listing and map (from 2002)

http://www.peacenow.org/nia/pr/03192002.html

Okay, from what I am reading and seeing is that a large part of the settlements are the result of placing the beduins on "reservations" rather than their free-roaming previous lifesytle.   With the settlement of the beduins, Jewish citizens want equal re-establishment rights.  These settlements do not necesarily have running water or utilities other than a utility line leading into portable buildings, or even tents.  

Now, when I look at the map, and I read the article that I posted above, knowing that unemployment is in excess of 90 percent in Bethlehem, why would anyone move into the area?  It would not be for work or improvement, for there is no work there, and they are not "building" homes, but temporary housing.  

One article quoted that the land was deem unusable by the West Bank which would certainly be "untrue", for in Israel, any crop will grow if it has water.  

The settlements aren't about what the people or country needs, but a squabble over the right to squatter's rights.   If the people who are settled in the outposts were wanting to work and live, Israel has an established system of living/working in their kibbutzim, which apparently has been rejected by the people in these settlements.


I wouldn't view any of "this" as biblical... or fulfillment of prophecy.  


~serapha~





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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2004, 08:05:19 AM »

Thanks for the links serapha.  It will take me a while to view them all in detail.

Quote
I wouldn't view any of "this" as biblical... or fulfillment of prophecy.  

You could be right.  However, I am very interested to see how this proceeds in the coming months.  I see biblical fireworks in the making, but I will hold my thoughts a while longer.   Like Reba says, things seem normal in the middle east.

Grace and Peace!
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