The Gospel of John does not connect the Many Mansions passage with the End Times, with Tribulation, with persecution, Judgment, or Second Coming. It is simply a description of Christ receiving believers into Heaven. It gives us no clue as to when this will happen.
I agree. There is no clue as to when it will happen going by this passage. Only that we will be taken into heaven. The end of Revelation reveals a different scenario of Christ reigning on earth after his return. There is simply no way to reconcile the above verse with....
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Here we see an army with Christ wearing white fine linen. Fine linen is usually reserved for believers in christ.
And later,
Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Two groups of people here. Those sitting on thrones (plural) and those who were beheaded.
Do you see the problem with this in regards to mansions passage? The mansions passage agrees fully with the above scripture, because sainst are seen returning with him to earth, whereas, if we are not changed until the end, Jesus is involved in a useless construction project in heaven that the none of us ever see. The Bride is collected before judgment. Others will be converted during the tribulation, and ressurected at the end, thus explaining to the two distinct groups in Rev 20:4 Scirpture interpreting scripture yet again.
As I said in my previous post:
<< Jesus is apocalyptic in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
"[Jesus says]Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 24: 12-3 NIV This is a distinct anti-Rapture teaching.
If you read all of Matthew 24 carefully, you will see that there are 3 questions asked of Jesus. Jesus explains when the temple will be destroyed, (happend aprox. 65 years later), what the sign of his coming would be, and what would be the sign of the end of the age. Right after he speaks of them being persecuted, and enduring till the end, he says the Gospel would be preached in all the world, and THEN the end would come. This part didn't happen until probably this last century. The desciples were persecuted, and suffered terrible deaths. Also important to note that the mystery of the church had not yet been revealed. Jesus would not have spoken clearly about when he was coming to receive his bride, when the desciples did not understand that until sometime during the events described in the book of Acts. I don't see much referense to pro of con rapture in Matt 24. Just the destruction of temple, the sings of his return, and the end of the age
For those who believe in a Rapture, the purpose of the event is to spare Christians being persecuted under the anti-Christ. Yet Jesus plainly says, "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you." Luke 21:12 NIV
While no one in there right mind wants to face persecution, we as christians are told to expect that, and in fact do. The desciples faced death because of their witness. Numerous Christians around the world (not so much in America) face similar trials and persecution. To directly address the verse in Luke 21, notice he says "before this". Before what?
Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Luk 21:12 But
before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you[......]
Again, it seems as though he is speaking directly to those who were listening to him, as kingdom rising against kingdoms, earthquakes in various places were all to take place during the end age.
Scolling down to verse 35,
Luk 21:35 For as
a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and
pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
These things will come upon ALL them that
dwell on the earth, but Jesus commands us to watch, and pray that we may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS.
Note the word DWELL. Those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice,
ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Do a word search in Revelation and notice how the word DWELL is used of those who dwell on the earth, and those who dwell in heaven. A clear distinction threaded throughout Revelation.
How do you deal with the fact that Jesus Christ has decisively ruled out the possibility that any pre-Tribulation Rapture scenario can be true?
I think I have clearly shown in the very verse you provide how this is not the case. Jesus will retrieve his bride before dealing with the unjust. He has not appointed us to his wrath. We are his children. Yes we face worldy persecution and all sorts of trials to strengthen our faith, but being his children, we are not condemned to face his judgment. He took Gods wrath and Judgment for us already at calvary. Those who accept that gift, are the apple of his eye, and are not in need of facing his wrath and anger yet a second time, because our debt was paid in FULL. However, those who reject this gift, will face a very angry, just, and righteous God.
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
May God grant us power and insight through his holy spirit to help others come to a saving knowledge of Gods merciful grace and forgiveness.
Grace and Peace!
