PART 2
I will say after all this that I am not certain this understanding of mine expresses the teachings of the Catholic Church as I do not have a perfect understanding of the whole process, but this is how it makes sense to me.
Should I coin a new term and call it Sola Catholica? LOL a Catholics adherence to interpretation of Scripture and manly traditions ad proposed by Catholic doctrine. LOL sorry could not resist.
What is the difference between considering to have lost salvation and losing salvation. Is it just a state of confusion in our own minds?
I was stating from my point of view that one would not lose their salvation, but from your point of view they could have.
This gets into the whole issue of initial and final salvation. The gift is given once as you say. We then accept it through faith and works together (or belief and works together to use your terms).
No no no. You still do not even get that correct. My terms are not belief and works together. My statement is faith. Period. Faith being defined Biblically and through our own language as being belief and an allegiance/willingness to obey God. I know you probably will not accept that definition even though I have shown you in several instances where your “belief” that faith is just a deeper form of belief is incorrect.
Yes, that is your position but there is nothing to support the idea that these verses (or any and all verses) of scripture are limited in their relevance to select group. I understand that is a linch pin upon which dispensationalism hangs or falls but it is not one I accept. I believe that all of scripture is relevant to all of mankind. So to ignore the message of a verse by saying it doesn’t apply to you is unacceptable to me.
Hold on there now. There is wisdom to be gained, knowledge to be learned from all of Scripture. However you have to understand where, what, who, and why the authors were inspired to write what they did. You have to look at not only the context of a verse in relation to verses around it but also context of the verse in relation to the author and where he was, who he was writing to, when he wrote it, etc.
If you do not accept that parts of the Bible were directed at certain people then why is there so many references as far as talking directly to Jews, or Gentiles, or Pharasee’s, etc. There are many direct comments throughout the OT as well as the NT that speak directly to a type of person or group of people. Do you think the OT was written strictly for Christians, or perhaps it was written just for the Jews and is not applicable to us?
I am not stating that some verses are not relevant or only relevant to select groups. But there are verses/chapters/books which are speaking to/about a certain group of people. And they must be taken in that context. You have to understand the surroundings in which the verse was spoken/written. This does not reduce the importance of the verse but places it in the context it was written.
Look at Matt 23. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees” Now to whom was Jesus talking to? There is no one today called Pharisees. And I do not claim it to be irrelevant as for a set of verses to learn from. But you have to understand who it was Jesus was talking to. You have to understand the context of the time and the people of the time. There are those like the scribes and Pharisees today, but they are not called that. The Bible then goes in at certain spots and helps to create an image of what the scribes were like and what the Pharisees were like as well so that we know the statement is not an empty one and allows us to understand what Jesus was saying in these verse. When someone is speaking to the Jews then they are speaking to the Jews, it can be applied to Jews of today or people of like mind. Not irrelevant but in the context of the writing. And Hebrews was written to the Jews so the author was speaking in terms they would understand and referencing things associated with their belief, traditions, etc, etc. Hebrews was not written to Christians but to Jews.
The reference to salvation coming through the long suffering of Jesus (meaning He can put up with a lot from us – not that He suffered a long time) and the reference to others who wrest (twist and misinterpret) scripture to their own destruction (damnation) shows I think that if we fall from our own steadfastness and begin to twist and misinterpret scripture to cover our sins or convince ourselves that we have security we will try even the long suffering of Jesus to the point of losing our salvation. We cannot hold onto the free gift if we do not repent of our sins.
But you are reading far more into the verse than what it says. Again it does not state anything about losing our salvation. Be careful. You say that twisting and misinterpreting verse can lead to this. Well if that is true then you have done it here by putting much more into that verse than what is stated.
Do you want me to provide more? I am always reluctant to do that initially because some many here are ready to accuse people of flooding them with scripture to prove a point, they seem more content with a few “proof verses” rather than seeing the weight of scripture come down on one side or anther of an debate. As to God taking away the salvation in the verse from Revelation I don’t agree. True He scratches the name out of the Book of Life (as would be the case for anyone who loses their salvation) but it was due to our actions.
Provide as many as you like as far as I am concerned. But so far the ones you have provided have not shown a loss of salvation.
God never abandons us we always walk away from Him
Unless of course we walk out of Heaven then as you said God would not let us back in.
You still use a floppy?! LOL. Get yourself one of those 128 MB memory sticks (about $40 right now) they pop right in a USB port and work great I carry one everywhere with lots of junk on it. At home I have a Mac and the thing works in PCs or Mac with no reformatting issues or anything, which is good since Mac’s don’t come with floppy drives anymore.
Yeah I know. Just have not gone out to get one. And I like my good ole floppy…RORL.
What you are referring to is the conversion we must undergo. Catholics believe it is not enough just to have our sins hidden beneath His blood, we believe that the Bible speaks of a true conversion of the sinner, that we become holy through our cooperation with grace. I know this is going to open another whole can of worms but that conversion doesn’t occur in a one shot deal when the Holy Spirit enters us, nor does it happen when we first believe or do our first good work. Conversion is a process, that is why sanctification is part of salvation not just evidence of our faith. That is what Paul means by telling us we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
We are converted to children of God as soon as we ask to become that. When we ask Jesus to come into our lives and accept Him into our lives He immediately does. At that point we are “Christians”. Yes there is a true conversion of the sinner, the washing away of the sins by the blood of Jesus gives us a new birth in the Spirit. Sins of the past are cleansed. I agree this does not mean that a new child of God will magically no longer sin in his or her life. Sure there is a conversion of lifestyle that takes place. But that is not a conversion of the soul but a conversion of the person outwardly.
I think I agree with how you were going to finish that statement, but then you are not choosing clear over complex you are going with the majority of verses, which is fine as long as you can be sure you have a majority and that would still require knowing all the scriptures in such a way that you can balance them against themselves in your mind to make that determination, otherwise you never know when you might find another set of verse to toss on the scale for the other side of the argument and you would end up with a doctrine that wavers.
Which is why I study often and regularly. Not only reading the Bible normally (pick a book and read it..usually in order), but also I study topically and search through for other verses that are related and such. And also why I take notes. I have 2 notebooks full of notes from just the first 8 books of Genesis alone. Maybe one day before I die I will compile everything and put it into a nice concordance type of thing...LOL
END PART 2