Miracles convince, or not? Contradtiction?

[homie]

Is this s a contradiction or not? How can it be explained. I'm a Christian and need help on this matter:

Jesus says in Matthew 11:21

"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Indicating that miracles can convince people, and make them turn to God.
But in this chis chapter in the Bible, Abraham seems to indicate that seeing miracles won't make people turn to God:

He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

 29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

 30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

What gives?

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi homie,

It's good to see you back on the forum.

To answer your question, that's because they are talking about two different things.

Mat 11:21 is talking about a change that is done within the people not a miracle such as physically raising them from the dead. This is the difference. The Greek word dunamis that was translated as miracles can also be used to mean a "mighty work" and might make more sense in the case of this verse.

[homie]

First of all, I can't believe you remember me. I haven't been here for ages and my postcount is only 19!

Are you saying that Jesus is not talking about the miracles He performed in those cities?
That is doubtful, in my opinion.

I heard another explanation on another forum. It goes like this:
Abraham is saying that someone who have heard the Moses and the prophets and does not repent will not repent even if they were to see a miracle.
Now, the people in the Israeli towns that Jesus condemns, had likely heard Moses and the prophets and didn't repent, and thus is consistent with what Abraham said. Tyre and Sidon (gentile cities) were likely not versed in the teachings of Moses and the prophets and so they hadn't rejected it, and Jesus is saying that they would repent if they saw His miracles. So it is consistent.

But as I was writing this I thought of another problem:
If miracles do not convince those that do not repent after learning Moses & prophets, why did Jesus even attempt the miracles there. Furthermore, why was He all like "O you didn't respond to my miracles you sinful cities" when you knew very well that they would reject it, both because of omniscience, but also because He knows that if they didn't respond to Moses & the prophets, they won't respond to signs and wonders. This is also evident in the desert wandering Israelites who saw many signs and wonders yet worshipped a golden calf.

BTW, your post count is huge, especially considering how small this forum is.

[nChrist]

Hello Homie,

I'll let Pastor Roger answer for himself, but quite a few things in Bible History are obvious. JESUS CHRIST performed miracles in front of great hosts of people. Some accepted HIM as who he was and some accused HIM of doing the work of the devil.

The Bible states that the Jews require a SIGN, and JESUS CHRIST gave them plenty, but we should all know that most of the Jews rejected HIM. By the way, JESUS CHRIST was also the Anointed KING OF ISRAEL, and they had HIM crucified.

Regarding the forum, this is an old and fairly large forum. We delete accounts that are inactive for lengthy periods of time. Thousands have come and gone over the years, and we currently have over 12,000 page views per day just for the forum. Christians Unite is much more than just the forum. It serves thousands of Christian web sites around the world every day. Look at the main site, and you'll get an idea. Christians Unite is actually a very large online Christian Community, the forum representing about 4% of it.

By the way, I remember you also because of your unusual user name.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Soldier4Christ]

Actually I don't remember you from before as I got here after you quite posting. I had just seen your profile and saw that you had been here and posted prior to that.

Yes, Jesus did perform many physically visible miracles within those cities but if we look at the specific verse that you gave in Mat 11 then we see that it is not of these miracles that were being spoken of. When speaking of the physically seen miracles and signs that Jesus and the Apostles performed the Greek word is always sēmeion but as I noticed in this instance it is instead the Greek word dunamis. This actually makes a big difference in the meaning.

Let's move down further and see verse 23.

Mat 11:23  And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

(note: This is the KJV that I have posted which interprets the word dunamis to be mighty works whereas the version you used was to miracles. Either version is fine but doing a comparison in this manner and examining the Greek words allows us to see clearly there is a difference in meaning.)

Notice here there are two similar sayings "which have been done in thee", in 21 it was "which were done in you". This is not speaking of something that was done to them but in them.

Again in another place we see this word used:

Mat 13:58  And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

As we know God does not force Himself on those that do not believe in Him, therefore in this verse He did not many mighty works there. There was no change within these people because they did not believe.

Let's look at one more verse that uses this word:

Mat 14:2  And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.

Here Herod uses this word in regards to John the Baptist.  Why? Because the "mighty works" showed forth from "within Him". Not that He had done any physical miracles because John the Baptist did not perform any such physical miracles.

[homie]

by blackeyedpeas
By the way, I remember you also because of your unusual user name.

Hehe, I thought it was a common nick.

Thank you pastor Roger.
Why would the translators of the NIV not know the meaning of these Greek words? Surely them must be Biblical scholars in order to be entrusted to translate The Bible. You might say it is an "ok" translation of the word, but if you are correct about what it means, translating it to "Miracle" is downright misleading and wrong.

Notice here there are two similar sayings "which have been done in thee", in 21 it was "which were done in you". This is not speaking of something that was done to them but in them.

The text is talking about Capernaum, a city, and is saying the "mighty works" was done in you, meaning in the city. I.e. the mighty works were done in Capernaum.

Mat 14:2  And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.

Here Herod uses this word in regards to John the Baptist.  Why? Because the "mighty works" showed forth from "within Him". Not that He had done any physical miracles because John the Baptist did not perform any such physical miracles.

I believe this is Herod responding to a report he got about Jesus performing miracles. So Herod concludes that this must be John who are back from the dead, and therefore "mighty works shew forth from him". Whether John performed miracles while on earth is irrelevant because this is just a record of who Herod thought Jesus was and why He was able to perform miracles.

[Soldier4Christ]

Thank you pastor Roger.
Why would the translators of the NIV not know the meaning of these Greek words? Surely them must be Biblical scholars in order to be entrusted to translate The Bible. You might say it is an "ok" translation of the word, but if you are correct about what it means, translating it to "Miracle" is downright misleading and wrong.

It is not wrong to translate it as miracle, just misleading due to most peoples concept of the word miracle. Like many Hebrew words the word dunamis has several words it can be translated to, one of which can be miracle in a certain context of it's meaning. The English word miracle has several meanings. When used as either miracle or mighty works it is used in the context of the force and power of the works performed being seen within them and not the actual works of a miracle. i.e. When we are saved a "miracle" is performed within us, we are regenerated, born again. This is the context that is meant when the word dunamis is used.

The text is talking about Capernaum, a city, and is saying the "mighty works" was done in you, meaning in the city. I.e. the mighty works were done in Capernaum.

Wrong. The text is talking about the people of the city and not the city itself. Just as it is talking about the people of Sodom. For it was the people that sinned not the city. It is common practice throughout the Bible for the people of a certain area to be mentioned by the name given to the city which they live in when it is intended to include all of the people within that city.

I believe this is Herod responding to a report he got about Jesus performing miracles. So Herod concludes that this must be John who are back from the dead, and therefore "mighty works shew forth from him". Whether John performed miracles while on earth is irrelevant because this is just a record of who Herod thought Jesus was and why He was able to perform miracles.

If your wording were correct then it might be true. However it says "mighty works do shew forth themselves in him" not "from him". This does make a big difference.

[nChrist]

Hello Homie,

I really don't understand why you're trying to make such a big thing out of this.

Let me give you something very simple to think about, and you can take it or leave it. Many of the Jews of the Old Testament were heavily schooled in the things of GOD. Gentiles were primarily thought of as heathens and not worthy to be taught the things of GOD. So, it would be much worse for a schooled Jew to reject the things of GOD than an unschooled Gentile. Example:  Put two plus two together and you will get four if you've been taught math. If you haven't been taught math, you have a MUCH better reason for getting the answer wrong. It's just this simple.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour Forever!

[Pizza_Mahal]

Since I lived with demons, miracles occur every once in while, because I always pray about "keep them away from me". They do come back because I forget to read God Word and other sins.

Miracles do work, My Mother had full grown boil on her back and she just ask and I pray(of course), and then boil is gone.

There so many reason miracles don't occur because selfish reason and nothing to do with God purpose & glory.

[nChrist]

Hello Pizza Mahal,

GOD does as HE pleases in Heaven and on earth. You mentioned the perfect reasoning:  "According to HIS Will and Purpose".

No man commands GOD! This is a first and most basic thing to remember.

GOD does answer our prayers IF it's according to HIS Will and Purpose. Regardless, GOD does hear the prayers of HIS children. As children of the KING OF KINGS, we must remember that HIS Will and Purpose WILL BE! Our part is to yield to HIS Will and Purpose.

We must also remember that there will be miracles, signs, and wonders THAT ARE NOT of or FROM GOD, especially considering these might be the last days of this Age of Grace. The devil will deceive great hosts of people. The Holy Bible tells us these things will take place, and they most certainly will. The 7 Year Tribulation Period will be a time of horror and death like the world has never known. The SECOND COMING OF CHRIST in Great Wrath will end the Tribulation Period. CHRIST HIMSELF will defeat evil and reserve it for Everlasting punishment. Many think that these times are near, and I'm one of them.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour Forever!